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Piisuke
10-09-2008, 21:30
I posted this in the wishlist topic, but as that topic has so many pages, I made it a seperate topic for it, so that it gets some attention... hopefully.

I am unaware of how many of you know the old football managing game called: Ultimate Soccer Manager.
The last game in the series was released 10 years ago.
Now, the whole series never did well in itself, due to heavy competition.
Personally I find this odd, as the game was quite good actually. It was just like all the other football managing games, but it packed something extra that really had my interest.

Aside from managing a team, one could also act as a chairman of that same team.
This meant that you were in charge of the entire thing. You were allowed to enhance your stadium yourself, choose your own advertisements, add facilities to the stadium and everything just seemed more "real". To find out the fixtures you had to look on teletext and such, it was pretty nifty.

Maybe it is a nice idea for SI to implement something similar. Such as actually adding stands to the stadiums yourself, or add facilities, or choose your own shirt sponsor or things along those lines.
It makes the game more personal and it feels like you're interacting more with the game.

Of course if real life models of stadiums are used, I can see some design difficulties arise, such as where on earth would you add those things, but I am sure that the lads at SI are able to cook something up.
Like, adding a roof to a stadium, or new HD cameras for the viewers, shops, fanshop etc etc.

Of course one doesn't have to take the chairman status, if one simply wants to manage, but I think it will add a lot of depth to the game, as you are now much more in control of the game and the future of the club. Well, one can be, if one chooses to do so.

Discuss!

rinso
10-09-2008, 21:34
not really as we've stated lots of times that we're not interested in putting in any chairman modes


1010101010

Abaddon879
10-09-2008, 21:38
To be honest, I can't really seee a place for that within the FM game. It has always been about actually managing the team - just what the manager does. There are other games such as Director of Football (a game I picked up when I went to the CM4 unveiling in a HMV in london). This allowed you to do all those things, but I personally found it quite boring. It added a different slant on the genre, yes, but I didn't personally feel it was anything the manager should be dealing with.
It would not be football manager so much as football club manager. Managing a football team should not be about anything other than the team itself. As we have seen recently with Newcastle, when you try to add people to take care of certain roles, it all gets very silly. If you wanted this then there are other games that can provide it, but I don't feel it is the direction Football manager should, or will go for that matter.

jaywillis1984
10-09-2008, 22:00
The game is called Football Manager and therefore there is no place for having the option to chair a club.

santa19
10-09-2008, 22:08
i agree with piisuke. i personally reckon something to do with stadium development in the game apart from a message saying "your stadium is increasing by 10,000 in capacity it will take 5 months" will be a good addition. however this is in FIFA MANAGER and is not a very popular part of the game. and when people say that a manager has nothing to do with a stadium, then thats rubbish. managers put their opinions to the board about plans for stadiums that have been sent to them and make reccomendations. so if a feature like this was to be added, it would not be 100% unrealistic of a football managers duties.

Piisuke
10-09-2008, 22:29
Everything has to do with football. It is not just a sport, it is also a business.
I also said that, if such a thing were to be implemented, it should be optional. So that players can choose to use the options, or not.

However, adding other options, such as I mentioned in my first post adds in-depth to the game, it adds variety and the game becomes more personal.
No offence, but after playing the game with the same team for 10 seasons with the same engine it gets kinda boring. To me the FM are great games, but somewhat repetitive. This way, the game becomes more customizable and personal.

However, as rinso quoted, SI isn't considering any chairman modes.

Though, it is different from what I am hoping for. Playing as a chairman isn't something I want. Having the option to have some choices chairmen have would be nice. Such as he sponsor/advertisement and stadium thing. There doesn't need to be a chairman mode to implement this. Ultimate Soccer Manager didn't had this either. It was simply a football manager game, but you had the option to increase the stadium yourself by buying the stands you want and placing them where you want, while still managing the game.
Increasing the stadium wasn't a necessity, but it was an option. The same story counts for sponsors and advertisements.

Now, I know that the board sometimes gives you a message where you're informed they chose a different sponsor, but it really doesn't change anything.
Your kit looks the same, with the same sponsor and you might get a slight improved income, but that is it. A little bit more than just a line of text would be nice.

wardog
10-09-2008, 23:19
i agree with piisuke. i personally reckon something to do with stadium development in the game apart from a message saying "your stadium is increasing by 10,000 in capacity it will take 5 months" will be a good addition. however this is in FIFA MANAGER and is not a very popular part of the game. and when people say that a manager has nothing to do with a stadium, then thats rubbish. managers put their opinions to the board about plans for stadiums that have been sent to them and make reccomendations. so if a feature like this was to be added, it would not be 100% unrealistic of a football managers duties.

IIRC Willie Waddle designed Ibrox while manager for Rangers

gmcker
11-09-2008, 00:45
Bar Noades at Brentford all those years ago, I can't remember too many precedents to have Chairman/Managers.

saved_by_barry_horne
11-09-2008, 00:55
Bar Noades at Brentford all those years ago, I can't remember too many precedents to have Chairman/Managers.

Barry Fry, Niall Quinn.

Completely against this idea though.

tomtuck01
11-09-2008, 01:03
Aside from managing a team, one could also act as a chairman of that same team.

Maybe it is a nice idea for SI to implement something similar.

Discuss!
It's an idea that has been muted many, many, time's before, and every time it has recieved a similar response;

"The game is called Football Manager, not football chairman, for a reason."

Piisuke
11-09-2008, 02:01
And people aren't reading this properly.
I never said the option to be a chairman should be there, I said I'd like to see SOME options a chairman has, such as choosing the sponsor on the kit, or customizable stadium, or things along those lines.

I didn't said anything about playing as a chairman.

Fair enough if the chairman option is muted, but in my first post I simply referred to decisions a chairman has. Same as people have the choice to play with multiple leagues, people then can have the choice to play with this things, such as choosing sponsor, advertisement on the pitch and things alike.

So, just to throw it out there once more.
I was referring to decisions a chairman usually makes in the game.
I think it'd be nice to be able to pick the sponsor yourself, see what deal suits you better, or able to change your kit in the game, as playing with the same kit for 10 season is very unrealistic.
The option to expand the stadium would be a nice option, but this thing should remain an option and not be forced on to player, if such a thing where ever to be added. These are just examples.

So, remember kids. I did not asked to play as a chairman, I asked for options a chairman has, such as examples provided in my post.
FM itself is already pretty much the best football managing game and I don't see it change any time soon, but the games have been pretty much the same every release, with only a few extra things and an updated database and a few tweaked things here and there.

I am looking forward to the new game though, don't get me wrong on that. I just like to see SI make a step to actually try to be different than all the other football manager games.
That little thing referred to as the "x factor", or "going the extra mile".

tomtuck01
11-09-2008, 02:16
And people aren't reading this properly.
I never said the option to be a chairman should be there, I said I'd like to see SOME options a chairman has, such as choosing the sponsor on the kit, or customizable stadium, or things along those lines.
And I'll reiterate;

"It's called Football Manager"

When did a manager ever have a say in the shirt sponosr, or stadium changes?

wardog
11-09-2008, 02:37
And I'll reiterate;

"It's called Football Manager"

When did a manager ever have a say in the shirt sponosr, or stadium changes?

doint know abount the shirt sponsor i believe that is a chirmans job, although like i said above Willie Waddel who was Rangers manager at the time of the Ibrox disaster in 1971 redesigned the Ibrox we have today. Therefore the manager had a very large say in that Stadium Change.

Also Dick Advocaat designed Rangers training set up at Murray Park, suggestions say therefore once again the Manager had a huge say.

I know these are two isolated exapmples however 2 other people mentioned other managers above.

Xennaz
11-09-2008, 03:07
I am sure it is not going to happen anytime soon.

SI have already shot down the idea in the countless threads that are of a similar vein.

Piisuke
11-09-2008, 06:10
I don't see SI doing it any time soon, if at all.

The thing for me is, it is all so a-personal. Everything is buttons and menus and the game doesn't seem to care about you.
The answers and replies given vary little and even if the answers to questions can be different, the eventual reply is always the same. "I see us beating team x today". That and the replies have minimal effect anyway.
When asked for a satellite club, there is a chance the board simply ignores your choice.

When a big club is interested in your player and the player wants to go and you say no, he gets upset, but never can you give an explanation. The player simply stays grumpy until he gets what he wants, or after x many months.

And as I said, the lay-out is extremely boring. Everything is a button and there is no appeal to the entire lay-out. Some games have pictures in the background, to represent the "field" you're looking in, such as training grounds, board room and dressing room.
As I said, in USM you had to look on teletext to see the fixtures and results. It gave it a more "realistic" feeling.


And I'll reiterate;

"It's called Football Manager"

When did a manager ever have a say in the shirt sponosr, or stadium changes?

Others have replied on the stadium bit. Second, the sponsor thing is bound to happen somewhere.
Anyway, wouldn't it be neat if the chairman asked you what kind of sponsor deal you'd suggest and see the actual sponsor on the kit.

I don't see it happening, due to licensing issues one can hope.

MSCCG
11-09-2008, 06:51
I have no opinion on the idea, but I hate the argument people make when they say "it's called football manager", it doesn't actually say explicitly WHY it can't be included and also sounds quite condescending. It's just a name, we know that names don't actually mean anything, and using that as the sole argument makes a rather poor one.

Blackmama
11-09-2008, 07:15
Stop this nonsens for christ sake. It's just as crazy as spending the "money" you earn as a manager.....

Enjy the game for what it is!

the blue ferret
11-09-2008, 07:30
FML seemed like the ideal time opportunity to add chairmen to the genre. It would suit. The people who buy a team in FML could chose not to manage it, instead hiring managers, getting involved with transfers and all that whilst the manager could be someone who plays free, or for a lesser charge.

Other than that opportunity, Chairmanship should be left well out of FM

Xennaz
11-09-2008, 09:38
I have no opinion on the idea, but I hate the argument people make when they say "it's called football manager", it doesn't actually say explicitly WHY it can't be included and also sounds quite condescending. It's just a name, we know that names don't actually mean anything, and using that as the sole argument makes a rather poor one.

Do you expect to be able to...

...whip out a bazooka while playing FIFA 09?
...summon Pikachu in Hitman?
...Use a lightsabre in World of Warcraft?
...play golf against Tiger Woods in God of War?
...cutomize your ride in Street Fighter?

A game's name -should- be very significant in terms of what you should expect in the present and future of the game and its sequels. If the name of the game SI is developing is "Total Football Experience" then sure, you have every right to suggest Chairman, player, referee, ticketing agent, bus driver, fan, streaker and security personnel options.

But it's not.

Piisuke
11-09-2008, 11:02
Oh, now that we have reached the stage of "let's be pedantic about 2 words" let me add this.

Football Manager does nowhere state it has nothing to do with chairmen, or any other functions. If we're going to be literal, a chairman also manages a football club. It says football manager, in other words, manage football. There is no line given what is right, or wrong.
Now, according to several of you, this mean that it can be implemented, due to it being in the name. There is no reason for this smart-ass talk, as it doesn't make sense. A name should attract the people's eye and give an idea of what the game is about. A name of a game doesn't define the game.


...whip out a bazooka while playing FIFA 09?
...summon Pikachu in Hitman?
...Use a lightsabre in World of Warcraft?
...play golf against Tiger Woods in God of War?
...cutomize your ride in Street Fighter?

Both chairmen and managers are in the same kind of field. Both deal with a football club, both deal with financial issues and both deal with the supporters.
Yeah, that makes those points you made very viable.

Ter
11-09-2008, 11:07
As we usually say any time this crops up, we're not looking at adding any chairman modes or stadium building, sponsorship, picking ad boards or anything like that to the game.

There is still so much to add and improve to the football management side of things which we would much rather concentrate on.

Nomis07
11-09-2008, 11:12
I'm not a fan of the "it's called Football Manager" argument either, it's similar to the realism argument and what really gets me about it is that there are far more reasonable reasons for this feature not being included.

As far as i'm concerned, until there is a considerable majority of FM users who think the chairman feature should be implemented it shouldn't even be considered. When there comes a day that a majority of people want it in, by all means add it, but for now it's a dead duck.

nehpets81
11-09-2008, 11:32
I too fondly remember the USM days and like the OP I felt it created a feeling that the club you managed seemed more "real". I'm not sure if this was down to making more chairman choices such as sponsorship though. We can already request to the board training facility improvements and stadium increses which IMO is good enough. I think it may be due to everything at the club being more "visual". It's just cosmetic but being able to see your stadium in a separate screen as it increased in size or improved was great. I also quite liked being able to see the trophies that you won in the trophy room rather than it just being on an honors list.

Soton
11-09-2008, 13:06
I like your ideas Piisuke,

Even if we could just communicate a bit more with the chairmen my enjoyment of the game would increase. It's good how the board are able to tell us how we're doing, with the whole board confidence thing. And, of course we are able to request more wages and the like but I would like a bit more than that. As it stands though it's quite good I suppose, probably an area though that could be greatly improved.

Some of your ideas, Piisuke, are really good.

Socdk
11-09-2008, 13:19
While I'm content with the way FM are, I too think that this could be a fun addition... With moderation of course. One of my most treasured manager games in the history of manager games, are an old game where you did in fact have to expand your stadium (in terms of seating, kiosks, parking lots and all kinds of cewl stuff like that), administrate food and merchandise-prices and choose what merchandise you would sell, pick sponsors for both shirts and for the sponsor-places on the sideline (don't know what they're called :D)... It was the most awsomestest game eva' and I would like it implemented in FM... Sadly it won't be, but it's not too big of a deal. I just think that SI-games doesn't realise how much this would appeal to FM'ers and how these things are the small things that add depth and feel to a manager game...


I too fondly remember the USM days and like the OP I felt it created a feeling that the club you managed seemed more "real". I'm not sure if this was down to making more chairman choices such as sponsorship though. We can already request to the board training facility improvements and stadium increses which IMO is good enough. I think it may be due to everything at the club being more "visual". It's just cosmetic but being able to see your stadium in a separate screen as it increased in size or improved was great. I also quite liked being able to see the trophies that you won in the trophy room rather than it just being on an honors list.

USM for president!!

Socdk
11-09-2008, 13:32
Do you expect to be able to...

...whip out a bazooka while playing FIFA 09?
...summon Pikachu in Hitman?
...Use a lightsabre in World of Warcraft?
...play golf against Tiger Woods in God of War?
...cutomize your ride in Street Fighter?

A game's name -should- be very significant in terms of what you should expect in the present and future of the game and its sequels. If the name of the game SI is developing is "Total Football Experience" then sure, you have every right to suggest Chairman, player, referee, ticketing agent, bus driver, fan, streaker and security personnel options.

But it's not.

Yes a game name should cover and describe the base of the game, but it shouldn't tie a game-franchise in such a manner that it can't be developed.

Besides your arguments are pathetic and nothing but non-constructive provocation. exageration can amplify a point, but not when you add elements out of context. Use your common sense... Of course sponsor handling and stadium expanding could be implemented in Football Manager, these things are related to football. Thereby they are related to Football Manager. With your rhetorics the game should be called "Football Club Manager". The name "Football Manager" would only allow managing a football.

Tweaks
11-09-2008, 13:42
lol...If you start a game you can be a manager.
Your talking already about being a chairman.
I think it's better to start adding the Asst. Manager option first before adding the chairman.
If you look irl some managers starting as Asst. Manager, so if you add that option in the game it would be an improvement.

But Ter said:

There is still so much to add and improve to the football management side of things which we would much rather concentrate on.

And i agree with that.

glamdring
11-09-2008, 13:42
Aside from managing a team, one could also act as a chairman of that same team.

This meant that you were in charge of the entire thing. You were allowed to enhance your stadium yourself, choose your own advertisements, add facilities to the stadium and everything just seemed more "real". To find out the fixtures you had to look on teletext and such, it was pretty nifty.

Wow, it's hard to imagine why a game that allows you to be chairman and manager at the same time and do all that crap with advertisements, yet have to look up the fixtures for your own team on teletext was not a roaring success :rolleyes:

Personally I am a fan of the "It's called Football Manager" argument against this because it is a short, pithy, to the point umbrella argument that covers the plethora of reasons why this kind of stuff shouldn't be included in FM.

I'm all in favour of having more information - e.g. how many away fans attended a game rather than just overall attendance, what the ticket price is and various other stuff, but I don't want to have the ability to set these things for myself and to decide how many flavours of herbal tea should be sold in the canteen. I'm sure there are other games that allow you to take these kind of decisions and if there aren't, given the number of football sims around, then there's probably a very good reason for that!

Ter
11-09-2008, 13:50
I think it's better to start adding the Asst. Manager option first before adding the chairman.
If you look irl some managers starting as Asst. Manager, so if you add that option in the game it would be an improvement.

That I agree with. There are many roles that can be taken on these days. A lot of Italian clubs have a general manager who deals with signing the players and that side of things and a head coach who takes care of training, team selection and is in control during the match.

Maybe that's something we can develop on in the future. It would certainly be there before even thinking of chairman options.

glamdring
11-09-2008, 13:52
Ter is threatening to implement Dennis Wise in future FMs :(

Ter
11-09-2008, 13:55
That would probably be even more annoying than "hands on chairmen" selling players over your head :D

Socdk
11-09-2008, 13:58
Maybe that's something we can develop on in the future. It would certainly be there before even thinking of chairman options.

Wow SI really don't like the whole doing "chairman" tasks... Seems as if you have just banned and cursed the whole idea, before going into deeper thought about it.

glamdring
11-09-2008, 14:05
That's probably because FM has always been based on being as close to realism as possible and there is nothing realistic about having combined chairman and manager roles unless you are an interfering nutcase of a chairman, someone not unlike Vladimir Romanov and I doubt FM will ever cater for people taken on that persona!

Tweaks
11-09-2008, 14:09
Dude, be realistic think about.
Whats more importend an extra option Chairman, or more details in the Manager?
It's alot of work for them to add new stuff in it. Like programming, updating etc etc.
It's good to help them with idea's, but if they say their not ready for it accept it and don't say that they've throw it in trash.
Just wait. Like i do.

Piisuke
11-09-2008, 17:23
Men talks about realism in FM, but I don't see realism. The only realism the games have are the updated database and the tactics.
As I said before, the game is as a-personal as can get. The 2008 skin might be the worst yet. The background was white everywhere you went.
Every question you were asked was morphed into this standard reply and they hardly mattered. Maybe 1, or 2 players actually showed some effect. Match talk had some effect, but that is it. All you're doing is clicking some buttons and you hardly interact with the game.

Managing for a football club comes with much more than simply signing players and competing against other teams.
In FIFA Manager these options are there, but they are a choice.
You can simply tell the computer that you'll be ignoring these things and the computer does it for you. It is ideal, as the players that don't want to bother don't have to and the players that do want to can. Everybody wins.

And for the last time, I am not suggesting the option to play as a chairman, I am suggesting options a chairman has, such as deciding the sponsors and such.

I like that SI is trying to improve their product every year and I like that the team itself posts here personally. At least, the way Ter types makes me believe he works on the game him/herself and isn't a "representative" of the team. So, kudos to SI for that, it really shows you're open to ideas by the fans and willing to discuss things and reply personally.

I do like to know why SI is against implementing the things I mentioned though. So far I only have seen things like "it won't happen" and "we don't really care much", any reason for that?

tomtuck01
11-09-2008, 17:43
And for the last time, I am not suggesting the option to play as a chairman, I am suggesting options a chairman has, such as deciding the sponsors and such.
And for the last time, when has a manager ever had say in shirt sponsorship and such like? :rolleyes:

glamdring
11-09-2008, 17:45
And for the last time, I am not suggesting the option to play as a chairman, I am suggesting options a chairman has, such as deciding the sponsors and such.


Well that is the crux of the issue. You want the manager to have responsibilities that the manager would never have in real life. Admittedly it can be argued nowadays that managers don't buy players themselves, but that is a whole new ball game - taking something so key out of the game is much more of a big deal than adding in something that is unrealistic.

Ter
11-09-2008, 17:48
I do like to know why SI is against implementing the things I mentioned though. So far I only have seen things like "it won't happen" and "we don't really care much", any reason for that?

At the moment it's not the direction we want to take the game in. We're trying to produce a realistic football management game which focuses on the role of the football manager.

Who knows what will happen in the future but at the moment it is not on our radar.

Piisuke
11-09-2008, 20:28
Thanks for the response Ter, that is an answer I can accept. Fair enough if that isn't the current direction you guys don't want to go in.
Just keep Wise out of the game =).

DietSpam
11-09-2008, 20:34
I posted this in the wishlist topic, but as that topic has so many pages, I made it a seperate topic for it, so that it gets some attention... hopefully.

I am unaware of how many of you know the old football managing game called: Ultimate Soccer Manager.
The last game in the series was released 10 years ago.
Now, the whole series never did well in itself, due to heavy competition.
Personally I find this odd, as the game was quite good actually. It was just like all the other football managing games, but it packed something extra that really had my interest.

Aside from managing a team, one could also act as a chairman of that same team.


Stopped reading there as i know where this is going, and there have been thousands of threads about this.

digsy11
13-09-2008, 00:30
Although i really don't agree with chairmen options in the game i would just lik to pick up on the pedantic people saying managers don't choose sponsors or upgrade the stadium,this is obviously true but managers don't get involved in transfer fees or wges these days either.Does this mean we should take that out the game as well? I think not.

N^G
13-09-2008, 10:23
That I agree with. There are many roles that can be taken on these days. A lot of Italian clubs have a general manager who deals with signing the players and that side of things and a head coach who takes care of training, team selection and is in control during the match.

Maybe that's something we can develop on in the future. It would certainly be there before even thinking of chairman options.

I would have thought that, considering what is in the game already in terms of club finances, stadiums, offering people jobs for u-21 sides etc, adding chairman decision functions would extend the game further than any kind of assistant manager or director of football mode which would surely just end up being a limited version of the manager role??