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JonPaulWild
09-09-2008, 19:30
People may have noticed that quite a few Ea Games are now using a SecuRom DRM protection that limits you to 3-5 installs and then after that you've given the privilege of phoning them to ask them for permission to install it again.

This has caused cosumer backlash about Spore and Red Alert 3 over at Amazon and their respective forums.

I was wondering, will Football Manager 2009 have similer DRM?

I would like to know this before purchasing the game. I respect SI/Sega's rights to profit from this game and for it not to be pirated.

Thanks

rinso
09-09-2008, 19:33
i would assume so, as 08 was done wtih securRom protection iirc

JonPaulWild
09-09-2008, 19:35
i would assume so, as 08 was done wtih securRom protection iirc


I believe it's a different version of securom - where it has to 'phone home' at certain events/periods.

No one was limited to how many times you could install a copy of Fm in the past.

I'm just curious to know if Fm2009 will have DRM like Spore.

rinso
09-09-2008, 19:36
ahhh i see.. not sure then...

SmurfDude
09-09-2008, 19:37
I should hope not. I refuse to be told how many times I'm allowed to install something I paid for

It's disgraceful how EA run their business. They will resort to any tactics to milk money from people. The day everyone else follows EA's example is the day piracy increases to the point developers go out of business

Liniert
09-09-2008, 19:38
fm had securom?!

rinso
09-09-2008, 19:45
fm had securom?!

fm08 has, yes.

megafan2005
09-09-2008, 19:50
tbh who cares about protection UNLESS it limits installs which is a disgrace but people complain about it even if all it does is TRY in vain mostly to stop protected games get played.

jakobx
09-09-2008, 20:10
If it has limited installs or online authentication then its a no buy. Im ok with a cd check, anything else is just annoying. And even with cd checks i prefer those companies that remove it in later patches.

Wakers
09-09-2008, 21:53
it's EA's tactics that make people download games instead of buying them.

If FM09 has securom like spore has, I won't go anywhere near it until its been cracked.

These companies get what they deserve sometimes.

philly_flyer10
09-09-2008, 22:08
1700 odd reviews, 1600+ give Spore a 1 rating.

DRM only effects legitimate users, spore was cracked before it was in the shops.

It would be the death of FM if SI used this, it would drive people to unlimited pirated versions.

philly_flyer10
09-09-2008, 22:10
tbh who cares about protection UNLESS it limits installs which is a disgrace but people complain about it even if all it does is TRY in vain mostly to stop protected games get played.

So what happens when they decide to shut down the activation servers and not support the game any more, you are left with a game you bought and cannot play.

The same thing happened when yahoo closed its music download shop. All the tracks bough became useless overnight.

Customers will not stand for this. DRM doesnt prevent piracy, it drives people towards it to get a clean product.

Nerion
10-09-2008, 00:32
Ugh, hadn't even thought of this. It's so sad that a legal copy of a game brings along so much more issues than a pirated copy. These kind of tactics only push more people into piracy.

I really hope FM isn't going to get the same garbage included, because even just thinking of the possibility of it being in FM09 has crushed all excitement I had built up so far.

barto123
10-09-2008, 00:35
I'm personally not a fan of any of this type of software, on online activation or any of that stuff.... my gaming computer doesnt have an internet connection because i dont see the point in it having one, and if i'm forced to activate a game online ie. half life 2 etc i choose not to buy that game. I dont have any problem with software that checks the disk to see if its ligit, but as soon as they start messing with you is when i choose to move onto a different product.

wardog
10-09-2008, 00:37
Just as a point i have 3 PC's and two of them have had windows re-installed in the last year down to viruses caused by my little sister at all times FM has been intalled on them all. In total i think ive installed it at least 6 times.

Also i agree with the likes of CD keys but for f***s sake limiting the amount of times you can install a game which you paid good money for, i think that is the wrong route to go down to kill priates. I believe i you take a game and make it so people want it have an anti .ISO or .BIN protection on it as this would stop it dead rather than limiting any thing

SmurfDude
10-09-2008, 00:41
I like how SI add in bugs which only occur when someone cracks their game. It's been funny in the past when someone comes here posting a "bug" but those of us with legit copies don't get it :)

I think SI/SEGA have better business sense than to add ridiculous install limitations on to us. Leave that nonsense for EA

wardog
10-09-2008, 00:44
I like how SI add in bugs which only occur when someone cracks their game. It's been funny in the past when someone comes here posting a "bug" but those of us with legit copies don't get it :)

I think SI/SEGA have better business sense than to add ridiculous install limitations on to us. Leave that nonsense for EA

Didnt know they done that. Ive heard of Microsoft sending viruses if you have an illeagal copy of XP or Vista instead of updates. However i think this is the way to stop piracy in gaming. If you put it so bugs occour in the pirate version then people will not get it and pay for the real deal.

Weather as a limit would make people get the free/illeagal version.

Im all for this idea.

philly_flyer10
10-09-2008, 01:06
I like how SI add in bugs which only occur when someone cracks their game. It's been funny in the past when someone comes here posting a "bug" but those of us with legit copies don't get it :)

I think SI/SEGA have better business sense than to add ridiculous install limitations on to us. Leave that nonsense for EA

Not true, I looked into that, it seemed they messed it up and a proper later one was released. Of course the ones who used a complete image without a no cd didnt have to put up with that. As far as Im aware, only 1 company uses a protection like that and its very good, it doesnt install hidden drivers, doesnt affect people that bought the game yet stops the pirates from playing it.


Didnt know they done that. Ive heard of Microsoft sending viruses if you have an illeagal copy of XP or Vista instead of updates. However i think this is the way to stop piracy in gaming. If you put it so bugs occour in the pirate version then people will not get it and pay for the real deal.

Weather as a limit would make people get the free/illeagal version.

Im all for this idea.

Again not true, MS would be sued if they sent virii to users especially as lots of legitimate users were unfairly accused of having pirated windows.

As for putting bugs in the game, people would only buy the game if they knew the "bugs" were due to the protection and not just bad coding.

You download a game and its bugged to hell, you arent going to rush out and buy it, are you?

SmurfDude
10-09-2008, 01:10
Not true, I looked into that, it seemed they messed it up and a proper later one was released. Of course the ones who used a complete image without a no cd didnt have to put up with that. As far as Im aware, only 1 company uses a protection like that and its very good, it doesnt install hidden drivers, doesnt affect people that bought the game yet stops the pirates from playing it.



Why would you look in to it? Seems a bit suspicious knowing about all that stuff

philly_flyer10
10-09-2008, 01:17
Why would you look in to it? Seems a bit suspicious knowing about all that stuff

I wanted to see if SI were lying. Nothing suspicious about that or wanting to know about all sorts of DRM.

Having starforce ruin 2/3rds of my burning attempts push me into knowing about all types of DRM and wanting to know what I put on my machine and whether a company can stop me playing what Ive paid money for.

davestu
10-09-2008, 03:17
Why would you look in to it? Seems a bit suspicious knowing about all that stuff

Urm not at all. I for one have looked into DRM and alternative methods like the one SI had supposedly used, for reasons of being a Legit downloader of music and games. You cannot even imagine how difficult DRM makes your life.



I wanted to see if SI were lying. Nothing suspicious about that or wanting to know about all sorts of DRM.

Having starforce ruin 2/3rds of my burning attempts push me into knowing about all types of DRM and wanting to know what I put on my machine and whether a company can stop me playing what Ive paid money for.


Just like you Philli Flyer I have really looked into DRM, I have found that it does nothing more than make it harder to buy and use music online legitimately. If I had gone out and pirated all of my music I would be much better of than I am now. DRM only hurts legitimate customers.

Please don't use this system SI.

Themistofelis
10-09-2008, 08:33
There is only one thing more ridiculous from getting home with the new legally bought copy of "spore" (it uses SecuRom) , install it and then look for a no-cd crack ; this is going rapidshare and find that the game was cracked even before it was released in your country !

Copy protections are made to make customer's lifes difficult.

*For those that do not remember bioshock's "copy protection" ( SecuRom) had a rootkit

http://www.gamingbob.com/2007/08/23/bioshock-installs-rootkit-including-demo/

LutonNil
10-09-2008, 10:22
fm had securom?!

which doesn't work

Wakers
10-09-2008, 11:42
Yea, when i first bought FM08 it would do nothing but tell me i don't have a proper version of the cd ! I HAD to use a crack to get it to work until SI fixed it.

ABOOO
10-09-2008, 12:09
Maybe SI will should make online confirmation with game serie no's, same as Pro Evolution Soccer online 's choise..

Wakers
10-09-2008, 12:15
The spore thing is a joke. I've already installed it on three computers, and at no point in the install process does it warn you about the drm crap. It wasn't until after that I found out I now cannot install it again without asking for permission. Absolutely pathetic.

Scotty Walds
10-09-2008, 12:16
Maybe SI will should make online confirmation with game serie no's, same as Pro Evolution Soccer online 's choise..
What about those without Internet?

philly_flyer10
10-09-2008, 12:31
The spore thing is a joke. I've already installed it on three computers, and at no point in the install process does it warn you about the drm crap. It wasn't until after that I found out I now cannot install it again without asking for permission. Absolutely pathetic.

Take it back, even if the shop says it was in the EULA, tell them its worthless as you cannot read that until youve bought the game. At which points most shops wont take a game back without a fight anyway.

If they refuse, make a scene. Do this on a busy Saturday for maximum effect.

Arkim
10-09-2008, 12:43
I remember the SecuROM issue when FM 08 was first released. It definately was a nightmare for me since everytime I tried to install the game, it kept saying I had a backup version of the disk. At first I thought it was because I bought the game in Norway since that's where I was at the time, but then came on the forums and found out it wasn't just me.

I'm glad after the patch however, that SI had fixed the problem and only required the disk to be in when loading or starting a new game. I hope they go with this route again as piracy protection schemes don't seem to work too efficiently these days, at least the route SI chose to go with last year, and only made installation of the game worse.

I'm sure SI are smart enough to come through as they always have in the past with minimal amount of problems.

ABOOO
10-09-2008, 12:47
What about those without Internet?
will cant play, like PES :)

Why do people install/download official patches without internet?

Arkim
10-09-2008, 13:12
will cant play, like PES :)

Why do people install/download official patches without internet?

Why? Why not would be a logical question, rather. Surely you would want to improve your game and have it up to date with the latest stats as well.

Neji
10-09-2008, 13:29
Copy protections like this does nothing for anyone. All it does is harm the genuine customer. Companies should worry less about copy protection and more about the quality of their product. If it's good - it will sell.

Using the '10 day internet activation' method as an example. Genuine customers have to activate their product every 10 days, pirates dont and they still get to play - where is the sense in that?

ABOOO
10-09-2008, 15:19
Why? Why not would be a logical question, rather. Surely you would want to improve your game and have it up to date with the latest stats as well.

sorry :D
not why, how.

i cant believe it haha, i tired :/

Miles Jacobson
10-09-2008, 16:34
We are not using Securom for FM09.

Miles Jacobson
10-09-2008, 16:39
Neji - there's no sense in that at all. However, if it wasn't for people pirating/stealing/whatever you want to call it, there would be no need for any kind of copy protection.

We are trying to come up with a system that sticks within the end user license agreement that have always been in place in our games, and which everyone who has installed a legitimate version of our games has agreed to before installing, but still offers better protection against those who decide that they don't want to pay for our work.

However, no system will please everyone, which we're well aware of. It's unfortunate that the lowest common denominator (those who pirate) cause legitimate users problems by forcing software publishers and developers to spend time, and money, protecting their rights.

philly_flyer10
10-09-2008, 16:40
We are not using Securom for FM09.

Can you tell us what you will be using, I would think some of us are waiting to pre order but need to know what you are using.

eg Starforce or DRM that prevents installation or needs to phone home = no sale for me on any game, no matter how good. I even refused to install a free trackmania game because it had starforce on it.

TMLS
10-09-2008, 16:44
Can you tell us what you will be using, I would think some of us are waiting to pre order but need to know what you are using.

eg Starforce or DRM that prevents installation or needs to phone home = no sale for me on any game, no matter how good. I even refused to install a free trackmania game because it had starforce on it.

What's the problem with stuff like that? I'm not criticising, just genuinely interested - I'm happy to use whatever system a publisher enforces as I don't do any piracy, just see it as a fact of installing the game.

JonPaulWild
10-09-2008, 16:49
We are not using Securom for FM09.

Good to hear, and thank you for your reply.


Neji - there's no sense in that at all. However, if it wasn't for people pirating/stealing/whatever you want to call it, there would be no need for any kind of copy protection.

Problem is though that the software gets cracked and it's on torrent sites within days, so if people want to download it...everyone knows where to go and it will be there. Pretty much making DRM worthless.


We are trying to come up with a system that sticks within the end user license agreement that have always been in place in our games, and which everyone who has installed a legitimate version of our games has agreed to before installing, but still offers better protection against those who decide that they don't want to pay for our work.

I would support a move to the steam platform. What are your thoughts and Segas thoughts regarding Steam?

Nerion
10-09-2008, 16:52
I believe that the majority of DRM in use today (as far as games are concerned anyway) have, at best, no effect on piracy at all, and may, in some cases, even sway a good deal of people to stop paying for games.

But I'm going to choose to be reassured by Miles' posts, assuming that SI will try to find a sensible solution that will not bother legitimate customers, so that I may begin rebuilding my excitement for FM09.

philly_flyer10
10-09-2008, 16:53
Starforce, interferes with optical drives making the failure rate go through the roof, can damage them too. http://www.glop.org/starforce/
Anything requiring activation, they can turn off the servers leaving you with a coaster that you paid for but cant play. Like Yahoo music recently. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/25/yahoo_announces_death_of_drm_servers/

A normal cd check is fine like theyve been using, anything more will drive people to piracy.

Nerion
10-09-2008, 16:56
What's the problem with stuff like that? I'm not criticising, just genuinely interested - I'm happy to use whatever system a publisher enforces as I don't do any piracy, just see it as a fact of installing the game.

Not being allowed to play your singleplayer games when your connection dropped, hoping the 'service' that does the checks will not someday disappear, making your game useless.. that's just a few quick reasons, and not nearly the end of it.

All the while, a cracked version, without any of these problems, will be available before most people receive their legitimate copy of the game.

JonPaulWild
10-09-2008, 16:58
Starforce, interferes with optical drives making the failure rate go through the roof, can damage them too. http://www.glop.org/starforce/
Anything requiring activation, they can turn off the servers leaving you with a coaster that you paid for but cant play. Like Yahoo music recently. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/25/yahoo_announces_death_of_drm_servers/

A normal cd check is fine like theyve been using, anything more will drive people to piracy.

Starforce copy protection in my opinion is the computer equivalent of dropping a bomb on some terrorists, and not being able to kill them but yet killing many innocent civilians and injuring many others.

Miles Jacobson
10-09-2008, 17:13
We have never, and will not (while I'm here) use Starforce.

It is more than likely that the game will require some kind of authentication - wouldn't just be online though, as many of our users aren't online or play on laptops or whatever. So whilst I like Steam a lot, we've used them before, and would love to work with them again, it couldn't be the only option (if it is to be an option).

When it's all finalised, I'll talk about it, and not before. It will obviously be finalised before launch, so people could cancel pre-orders at that point if they thought it draconian or whatever. As a customer myself of many games and software packages, I would only agree to a system being used that I would be happy using myself.

Miles Jacobson
10-09-2008, 17:14
Good to hear, and thank you for your reply.
Problem is though that the software gets cracked and it's on torrent sites within days, so if people want to download it...everyone knows where to go and it will be there. Pretty much making DRM worthless.

How I long for a year when one of our titles get cracked within days of release, rather then before release. If that was to happen, it would make the DRM incredibly valuable and worthwhile, actually.

SCIAG
10-09-2008, 17:27
I wouldn't care if there was a 5-install limit on FM. I've only installed FM07 twice.

Neji
10-09-2008, 17:53
I wouldn't care if there was a 5-install limit on FM. I've only installed FM07 twice.

It would annoy my alot. I do format my computer quite often so it would be a problem for me, even if you can get your installs back.

davestu
10-09-2008, 17:57
I wouldn't care if there was a 5-install limit on FM. I've only installed FM07 twice.

Good for you....

How is this relevant to a disscussion at all. I bet Miles is sat at his computer now saying, "Hey lads turns out it isn't a bad idea at all to use SecuRom DRM protection becuase SCIAG says he only installed FM07 twice" ;)

SmurfDude
10-09-2008, 18:11
Good for you....

How is this relevant to a disscussion at all. I bet Miles is sat at his computer now saying, "Hey lads turns out it isn't a bad idea at all to use SecuRom DRM protection becuase SCIAG says he only installed FM07 twice" ;)

Indeed. Even if I only installed it once, that isn't the point, I would still be angry knowing that at some point some morons in suits sat down around a table and said "Let's release our games with new protection. We are now going to limit how many times our customers can install our games. If they don't like it then tough, they can phone us on our premium rate phone line and beg for us to let them install it again. They will all bow down to us"

Or something to that effect...

Wakers
10-09-2008, 18:43
Miles - anything similar to the SPORE system (which you've said you're not using, great!) only hurts people who actually buy the game. This is also true of the protection you guys used on FM08, while it's mild by comparison, it stops the game working for a lot of people who actually bought (myself included). It doesn't effect pirates because they can effectively turn the protection off.

There has to be a copy-protection method that doesn't hurt the user in the end.

There have been a few games released in the last couple of years that used no copy-protection - what did they find out? Their sales were actually better than expected! (was it sins of the solar empire?)

DJdeMarco
10-09-2008, 18:57
I am in the anti-DRM camp for many reasons. Most recently because of Microsoft's Vista and XP authentication debacles but there are so many things that can go wrong and impact upon legitimate users that will never affect pirates.

If I buy software to install on my PC, I don't want rootkits installed for free and I will veer away from software that requires online activation for many reasons including the points already mentioned here and in previous posts in this thread.

It is my opinion that piracy prevention techniques should not impact in any way upon any legimate purchaser of software. Unfortunately, such a technology doesn't currently exist and, as such, I feel that all anti-piracy software does (in many cases) is frustrate the paying consumer whilst the wooden-legged, parrot on shoulder, eye-patch wearers enjoy very few problems.

I have no problems with companies trying to prevent the theft of their intellectual property but when the percentage of illegal users having problems is less than the amount of legimate users, surely it is time for a complete re-think.

To use a car analogy (which always seem popular even though the two industries are not comparable in any logical sense), most current software protections would be the equivalent of a vehicle anti-theft device that stops more car owners from driving their own cars than the thieving toerags that the devices were designed to prevent in the first place.

Nerion
10-09-2008, 19:48
There have been a few games released in the last couple of years that used no copy-protection - what did they find out? Their sales were actually better than expected! (was it sins of the solar empire?)

Exactly, the thing is that people have a certain amount of money to spend. Someone who has like 3 legitimate (music) cd's and 5000 mp3's, would most likely still only have bought these 3 cd's if he did not have access to these mp3's. In the world of gaming it works slightly differently, as the budget might shift from paying for games towards getting a better pc, but I am confident that the majority of publishers (and probably many developers as well) severely overestimate the impact piracy has on their actual income.

Clearly piracy is an issue, you won't hear me denying that, but I believe that the actual losses (read: a missed sale caused by piracy, as opposed to someone with no intention of buying it even if he couldn't get a pirated copy) are not sufficient to warrant alienating legitimate consumers.

DietSpam
10-09-2008, 20:44
I have loads of games, but what ever methods of determining if the game is real or not has never been a bother to me. Don't like the sound of this DRM though.

Neji
10-09-2008, 20:54
I am in the anti-DRM camp for many reasons. Most recently because of Microsoft's Vista and XP authentication debacles but there are so many things that can go wrong and impact upon legitimate users that will never affect pirates.

If I buy software to install on my PC, I don't want rootkits installed for free and I will veer away from software that requires online activation for many reasons including the points already mentioned here and in previous posts in this thread.

It is my opinion that piracy prevention techniques should not impact in any way upon any legimate purchaser of software. Unfortunately, such a technology doesn't currently exist and, as such, I feel that all anti-piracy software does (in many cases) is frustrate the paying consumer whilst the wooden-legged, parrot on shoulder, eye-patch wearers enjoy very few problems.

I have no problems with companies trying to prevent the theft of their intellectual property but when the percentage of illegal users having problems is less than the amount of legimate users, surely it is time for a complete re-think.

To use a car analogy (which always seem popular even though the two industries are not comparable in any logical sense), most current software protections would be the equivalent of a vehicle anti-theft device that stops more car owners from driving their own cars than the thieving toerags that the devices were designed to prevent in the first place.

I agree 100%.


I have loads of games, but what ever methods of determining if the game is real or not has never been a bother to me. Don't like the sound of this DRM though.It affects alot of customers though which is why there is such controversy surrounding it.

FM 08 last year for example, SI put in 'trigger' which made it so that the international qualifiers were upside down. So those that qualify dont actually qualify at all. Pirates who use a decent no-cd crack don't have the problem but those who carried saves into the full version from a demo did have the problem even though they bought the game legally.

JonPaulWild
10-09-2008, 21:39
I think the DRm that's been implmented in to today's games tries to restrict the 2nd hand sales of the game at places such as Gamestation, Game and to the person's friends.

What's SI's / Segas view on some one buying FM2009 and forwhatever reason they decide to sell it to their friend. Do you view that as a bad thing, something you want to stop or don't mind it?

Serpico
10-09-2008, 21:58
How about putting some football scores on the bottom of the pages of the manual in a very feint ink. Then the user has to enter the result from the relevant page to play the game. Can't believe it hasn't been thought of before.

r0x0r
10-09-2008, 22:01
I think the ideal would be a dual check system...

If the game cd is in the drive, the game should play. Simple as that. No phoning home, searching around your pc for unsavory pornography or making you call a sex line for activation...

However, it would be nice to have a "online no cd" option, where if you are online and the cd isn't in the pc, you're able to start.

I'd also support having to have a registered account with a registered CD key in order to download the patch...


One thing that's been banded about a lot that'd also be a nice touch is a "no cd patch" 2 years after release. I don't know how much SI make from platinum sales of 2 years + games, but chances are they'd lose practicly nothing to piracy, while making it easier for genuine users with old installs who can't find their disks.

That said, I have FM06 and FM07 next to me. Not sure where FM05's gone :(

FM08 still lives in my bottom cd drive. The top one's reserved for things that actually change position from time to time.

Wakers
10-09-2008, 22:19
How about putting some football scores on the bottom of the pages of the manual in a very feint ink. Then the user has to enter the result from the relevant page to play the game. Can't believe it hasn't been thought of before.

Yea, this is very old fashioned! Remember the old kit wheels from the premier manager series on the amiga? :D

davestu
10-09-2008, 22:29
Exactly, the thing is that people have a certain amount of money to spend. Someone who has like 3 legitimate (music) cd's and 5000 mp3's, would most likely still only have bought these 3 cd's if he did not have access to these mp3's. In the world of gaming it works slightly differently, as the budget might shift from paying for games towards getting a better pc, but I am confident that the majority of publishers (and probably many developers as well) severely overestimate the impact piracy has on their actual income.

Clearly piracy is an issue, you won't hear me denying that, but I believe that the actual losses (read: a missed sale caused by piracy, as opposed to someone with no intention of buying it even if he couldn't get a pirated copy) are not sufficient to warrant alienating legitimate consumers.

Urm..I have no Cd's anymore, and well over 5000 mp3's. All bought legit, not all MP3's are pirated :)

Apart from that ;) I agree with you 100% Piracy is an issue, but not as big as we are led to believe.

I am happy for many things to happen to prove the legality of my software, just not the ones that we have talked about here. To be honest things like DRM on iTunes only allowing a certain number of burns of your hard earned paid for music, is paramount to theft itself.

Schotsmannetje
10-09-2008, 22:37
How about putting some football scores on the bottom of the pages of the manual in a very feint ink. Then the user has to enter the result from the relevant page to play the game. Can't believe it hasn't been thought of before.

What's that gonna do then? If all manuals are exactly the same, you can just put all the results on the internet and everybody can play the game. Or do you want to print a different manual with every copy of the game? That would be incredibly expensive.

r0x0r
10-09-2008, 22:40
What's that gonna do then? If all manuals are exactly the same, you can just put all the results on the internet and everybody can play the game. Or do you want to print a different manual with every copy of the game? That would be incredibly expensive.

It was a joke. it's how they used to do things back in the early to mid 90's.


And no, it wouldn't work in the days of the internet. Back then it was fine though.

Scotty Walds
10-09-2008, 22:41
what's that gonna do then? If all manuals are exactly the same, you can just put all the results on the internet and everybody can play the game. Or do you want to print a different manual with every copy of the game? That would be incredibly expensive.
whooooosh!!

Schotsmannetje
10-09-2008, 22:42
sorry bout that…

Bit of a history lesson for me I guess :D

wardog
10-09-2008, 22:57
Waht about a simple answer. Release the game with no protection. Ok im being daft here, but when the knock off joe who downloads it trys to patch it, it checks to see if the CD is legitemate or just an ISO taken from an illeagal torrent site. IF its an ISO file then it checks to see where it was downloaded from, should it be leagal it works normal, should it be illeagal thenm pop tim and harry the game no longer works.

Neji
10-09-2008, 22:59
I am in the anti-DRM camp for many reasons. Most recently because of Microsoft's Vista and XP authentication debacles but there are so many things that can go wrong and impact upon legitimate users that will never affect pirates.

If I buy software to install on my PC, I don't want rootkits installed for free and I will veer away from software that requires online activation for many reasons including the points already mentioned here and in previous posts in this thread.

It is my opinion that piracy prevention techniques should not impact in any way upon any legimate purchaser of software. Unfortunately, such a technology doesn't currently exist and, as such, I feel that all anti-piracy software does (in many cases) is frustrate the paying consumer whilst the wooden-legged, parrot on shoulder, eye-patch wearers enjoy very few problems.

I have no problems with companies trying to prevent the theft of their intellectual property but when the percentage of illegal users having problems is less than the amount of legimate users, surely it is time for a complete re-think.

To use a car analogy (which always seem popular even though the two industries are not comparable in any logical sense), most current software protections would be the equivalent of a vehicle anti-theft device that stops more car owners from driving their own cars than the thieving toerags that the devices were designed to prevent in the first place.


sorry bout that…

Bit of a history lesson for me I guess :D

:D Being an Amiga gamer back in the day, I remember this method. Ahhh, how I miss my beloved Amiga...

Neji
10-09-2008, 23:00
Waht about a simple answer. Release the game with no protection. Ok im being daft here, but when the knock off joe who downloads it trys to patch it, it checks to see if the CD is legitemate or just an ISO taken from an illeagal torrent site. IF its an ISO file then it checks to see where it was downloaded from, should it be leagal it works normal, should it be illeagal thenm pop tim and harry the game no longer works.

Thats still copy protection though.

Suzie MUFC
10-09-2008, 23:16
It would annoy my alot. I do format my computer quite often so it would be a problem for me, even if you can get your installs back.

Same for me, I tend to format quite often too. Plus (and I know this sounds stupid, but I know I'm not the only person in the world with this problem) I have a phobia with telephones, I have to get my Mum to make calls for me which is a terrible pain - the worst being when I run out of installs for Windows XP and she having to be put on hold and then redirected to Bombay just to get a code, and barely understanding the person who's giving the instructions to her. Dreadful.

If it ever turned out this type of protection was being enforced on a future FM (or indeed any game I was interested in) I most definitely wouldn't buy it. The main principle being I've paid money for a product, why should I have to ask someone to keep it working? There must be other ways to stop the pirates instead of inflicting the punishment on legitimate users.

wardog
10-09-2008, 23:22
Same for me, I tend to format quite often too. Plus (and I know this sounds stupid, but I know I'm not the only person in the world with this problem) I have a phobia with telephones, I have to get my Mum to make calls for me which is a terrible pain - the worst being when I run out of installs for Windows XP and she having to be put on hold and then redirected to Bombay just to get a code, and barely understanding the person who's giving the instructions to her. Dreadful.

If it ever turned out this type of protection was being enforced on a future FM (or indeed any game I was interested in) I most definitely wouldn't buy it. The main principle being I've paid money for a product, why should I have to ask someone to keep it working? There must be other ways to stop the pirates instead of inflicting the punishment on legitimate users.

I suffer this too

Neji
11-09-2008, 00:00
There must be other ways to stop the pirates instead of inflicting the punishment on legitimate users.

In truth, there is no uncrackable copy protection. It can all be cracked, the big companies have some clever people but there is always someone who is just as clever hacking it.

r0x0r
11-09-2008, 00:15
In truth, there is no uncrackable copy protection. It can all be cracked, the big companies have some clever people but there is always someone who is just as clever hacking it.

Online only, account based gameplay where part of the code is kept on a server.

Keep that server secure enough...

Offline play, sure. :-p

Neji
11-09-2008, 00:18
Online only, account based gameplay where part of the code is kept on a server.

Keep that server secure enough...

Offline play, sure. :-p

Yeah, I meant to say online it can be done but for an offline game - not possible :)

SmurfDude
11-09-2008, 00:34
Online only, account based gameplay where part of the code is kept on a server.

Keep that server secure enough...

Offline play, sure. :-p

IF in the future 100% of houses have broadband, and the UK have reliable broadband that never cuts out, then I guess there's no reason not to use online servers as a way of stopping piracy. But that's a long way off, especially while we have BT hording all the phone lines. What we need is fiber optics, then we really will be at the golden age of the internet

r0x0r
11-09-2008, 00:37
IF in the future 100% of houses have broadband, and the UK have reliable broadband that never cuts out, then I guess there's no reason not to use online servers as a way of stopping piracy. But that's a long way off, especially while we have BT hording all the phone lines. What we need is fiber optics, then we really will be at the golden age of the internet

And what about when I want to use FM on a train?

My commute to Portsmouth 3/4 days a week would have been hell without FM a couple of years ago.

Neji
11-09-2008, 00:43
IF in the future 100% of houses have broadband, and the UK have reliable broadband that never cuts out, then I guess there's no reason not to use online servers as a way of stopping piracy. But that's a long way off, especially while we have BT hording all the phone lines. What we need is fiber optics, then we really will be at the golden age of the internet

Even if the net never cut out - not everyone would have 100% access all the time because of other issues, routers etc. That will never be a viable route. It it was, I would stop buying the game.

SmurfDude
11-09-2008, 00:43
And what about when I want to use FM on a train?

My commute to Portsmouth 3/4 days a week would have been hell without FM a couple of years ago.

Wireless internet already exists, so I'm sure in the future going online on a train or plane will be as easy as pressing a power button

SmurfDude
11-09-2008, 00:44
Even if the net never cut out - not everyone would have 100% access all the time because of other issues, routers etc. That will never be a viable route. It it was, I would stop buying the game.

Of course it will be viable. Good job not everyone is so defeatist, we'd never of got people in to space. "This is impossible, blah blah blah"

r0x0r
11-09-2008, 00:47
Of course it will be viable. Good job not everyone is so defeatist, we'd never of got people in to space. "This is impossible, blah blah blah"

Okay, sure. The day there is 100% uninteruptable internet, free of charge, both throughout the entire UK and abroad anywhere I ever go on holiday, I won't oppose having to go online to start a game.

Then again, that'll be the day after I set up the first moon brothel.

SmurfDude
11-09-2008, 01:04
Okay, sure. The day there is 100% uninteruptable internet, free of charge, both throughout the entire UK and abroad anywhere I ever go on holiday, I won't oppose having to go online to start a game.

Then again, that'll be the day after I set up the first moon brothel.

I imagine 10 years ago when we were dialing up to the internet that people never thought they'd have such easy and cheap access to the internet where we can download an mp3 in 5 seconds, instead of 20 minutes. But look where we are. It would be foolish to think it won't progress much further

Smac
11-09-2008, 03:06
How about putting some football scores on the bottom of the pages of the manual in a very feint ink. Then the user has to enter the result from the relevant page to play the game. Can't believe it hasn't been thought of before.

Thats actually the very first DRM model. Was used on PC games in the 80's! Was left behind for good reason.

x42bn6
11-09-2008, 05:26
As long as it's not StarForce I'm happy.

I'm pretty sure every gamer has SecuROM "installed" on their system anyway...

kiwityke
11-09-2008, 06:44
IF in the future 100% of houses have broadband, and the UK have reliable broadband that never cuts out, then I guess there's no reason not to use online servers as a way of stopping piracy. But that's a long way off, especially while we have BT hording all the phone lines. What we need is fiber optics, then we really will be at the golden age of the internet

Only one problem with that matey not everyone lives in Britain...and I will become Pope before New Zealand gets broadband even worthy of the name, never mind fibre optics.

McGeady10
11-09-2008, 08:32
I have no issue with SI Games protecting there rights but we have three PC's in the house (my desktop, laptop and my brothers laptop) and FM is installed in all of them. If it gets to the stage everytime I reinstall I have to phone then I'd be pretty annoyed as I've been a loyal customer who's bought a legit copy of the game since CM 92/93.

PS: I hate even the CD checker... On an old laptop I had my CD drive broke and only way I could play CM was to buy an external USB DVD player :(

Themistofelis
11-09-2008, 08:46
There are games like " galactic civilisations " and "Europa Universalis" that do not have a copy protection system but require a serial number in order to download patches and other staff , GC and EU3 sold very well .
The fact is that everything is available online and accept it or not it is up to the customer if he is going to pay for your work or not , spending money and time developing protection tools is just a waste .

fabioke
11-09-2008, 08:58
I think that the best strategy would be if Si sends many cracks everywhere and that the game says in december. Would you like to advance? Now buy it :d

Miles Jacobson
11-09-2008, 10:31
As can be seen from this thread, there is no easy answer to any of this. And it's not just a problem limited to video games, or the entertainment industry. Nor is it a new argument at all.

I am anti the need to have door locks. I am anti the need to have insurance at home for theft. I am anti needing to have an alarm at home to be able to get insurance, despite having locks, in case of theft.

Unfortunately, to be able to get insurance where I live, I need to have an alarm. And special locks. Which costs a lot of money each year, and is an inconvenience to the user (me), as I have limited keys for the place I live (although I can get more cut, but calling up the place that I got the locks from and having a proof of purchase (password)), and if I leave my keys in the office, I cannot get into the house without going back to the office to get the keys.

It is always the case that legitimate users suffer because of dishonest people. I cannot think of a single thing I can purchase where this isn't taken into account. It's just part of life.

However, we will do everything we can to ensure that the legitimate customer suffers as little as possible, whilst providing as much protection as possible to stop people stealing our game. We know we can't stop it 100%, but we have to try.

philly_flyer10
11-09-2008, 12:11
Wireless internet already exists, so I'm sure in the future going online on a train or plane will be as easy as pressing a power button

So what about people who live in the country miles from anywhere? They havent even got 100% phone coverage yet so BB coverage is a long way off.

What about all the other countries, Eastern Europe? The US? Australia. You really reckon they will have 100% BB coverage there?

DJdeMarco
11-09-2008, 18:39
It is always the case that legitimate users suffer because of dishonest people. I cannot think of a single thing I can purchase where this isn't taken into account. It's just part of life.

However, we will do everything we can to ensure that the legitimate customer suffers as little as possible, whilst providing as much protection as possible to stop people stealing our game. We know we can't stop it 100%, but we have to try.

Alas, this is true and I can certainly appreciate the reasons why software companies use copy-protection/DRM methods.

There are a lot of games I would like to have played in the last few years but won't due to the piracy-prevention techniques employed.

The good thing is (as has always been the case) that SI's protection methods are far less draconian than a lot of other software producers and for that I am thankful.

Schotsmannetje
11-09-2008, 18:52
Unfortunately, to be able to get insurance where I live, I need to have an alarm. And special locks. Which costs a lot of money each year, and is an inconvenience to the user (me), as I have limited keys for the place I live (although I can get more cut, but calling up the place that I got the locks from and having a proof of purchase (password)), and if I leave my keys in the office, I cannot get into the house without going back to the office to get the keys.



Yeah same here, it's a real pain. If your house gets plundered, and you haven't got the latest super-deluxe hyper-modern ultra-safe fully-computerized self-thinking locks with integrated coffee-machine, the insurance company says "Oopsy-daisy, can't help you sir! Your locks don't meet our standards."

Anyhow, to stay on-topic: It seems to me as if the continuing development of different types of copy-protection systems is just a source of inspiration for hackers. The more and better the security, the more fun for hackers. It's sad, but true.

HHUK
11-09-2008, 19:39
It's inevitable, whatever is released will get cracked. Some games however, don't often get cracked due to lack of interest or darnfangled awkward activation systems like eLicense.

Online activation is the only real way nowadays to ensure less piracy happens, sure.. somebody could bypass the activation but that's a hell of alot more work than a crack.

In Spore's case, it's actually more beneficial if you're a regular formatter to own a pirate version as you can install it as many times as you like. The only bad thing is you miss out on user created content. I bought the game especially for the content though.

Games like Sins of a Solar Empire released with no copy protection and was hugely successful, lots of people preordered, it topped the software charts in USA stores and recieved boatloads of praise from the hardcore PC gaming community. Not bad for a game with minimal advertising, riding to success with nothing but solid reviews and a promise of no added rubbish.

I'd like to see FM released without copy protection, or if needs be, online activation. Anything to stop the stupid bug that thinks I'm using a pirate copy, it changes my currency to Euros every few minutes. The best way to annoy a loyal customer since CM2.

Neji
11-09-2008, 20:15
Games like Sins of a Solar Empire released with no copy protection and was hugely successful, lots of people preordered, it topped the software charts in USA stores and recieved boatloads of praise from the hardcore PC gaming community. Not bad for a game with minimal advertising, riding to success with nothing but solid reviews and a promise of no added rubbish.

Exactly, the products speak for themselves. If they are good - they WILL sell.

r0x0r
11-09-2008, 20:23
I imagine 10 years ago when we were dialing up to the internet that people never thought they'd have such easy and cheap access to the internet where we can download an mp3 in 5 seconds, instead of 20 minutes. But look where we are. It would be foolish to think it won't progress much further

The problem is there are technical limitations that aren't so easy to get around.

Firstly, mobile internet is unlikely to ever be free. Therefore a lot of people will never have it.

Secondly, there will always be people who for one reason or another prefer to keep a certain gaming machine offline.

Therefore, as I said, we won't see a day when i can go anywhere on earth and always have perfectly working, free internet. There's no reason for the companies to give it away free for a start.

And until then, plenty of FM players won't be able to play when they want to if the game needed an internet connection at all times.

r0x0r
11-09-2008, 20:33
As can be seen from this thread, there is no easy answer to any of this. And it's not just a problem limited to video games, or the entertainment industry. Nor is it a new argument at all.

I am anti the need to have door locks. I am anti the need to have insurance at home for theft. I am anti needing to have an alarm at home to be able to get insurance, despite having locks, in case of theft.

Unfortunately, to be able to get insurance where I live, I need to have an alarm. And special locks. Which costs a lot of money each year, and is an inconvenience to the user (me), as I have limited keys for the place I live (although I can get more cut, but calling up the place that I got the locks from and having a proof of purchase (password)), and if I leave my keys in the office, I cannot get into the house without going back to the office to get the keys.

It is always the case that legitimate users suffer because of dishonest people. I cannot think of a single thing I can purchase where this isn't taken into account. It's just part of life.

However, we will do everything we can to ensure that the legitimate customer suffers as little as possible, whilst providing as much protection as possible to stop people stealing our game. We know we can't stop it 100%, but we have to try.

It's a matter of cost/benefit though. If people refused to get alarms and fancy locks and just did without insurance, the insurance companies would lower their demands in order to stay in business. Hopefully we'll see a similar thing with the extremely draconian DRM measures; people need to not buy, so the companies change their mind. While people are willing to put up with it, someone will always try pushing it to a new extreme.

The problem is though with DRM, it can be a real tricky thing. No DRM at all, and you are kind of asking people to pirate the game. Take CM2 for example. Install once, play forever with no CD. What playground didn't have a disk making the rounds? Too much DRM and genuine customers leave, refuse to buy the product or it's sequels, and sales are hit. I guess your job is to find the balance. Something that hurts illegitimate users, or at least makes it hard for them, yet has no (or minimal) impact on a genuine customer's enjoyment. With things like Spore and Bioshock, pirates actually have a BETTER product than genuine users. They don't have to put up with background processes so have better framerates. They don't have to put up with limited installs. When that happens, the publishers have scored a major own goal. They are actually pushing genuine users towards piracy, just like record labels who won't let you burn your new cd onto your ipod push people towards music piracy.

So long as FM's DRM is unintrustive enough that it doesn't lower my enjoyment of the game, the team is doing a good job. However my game experience should always be equal or greater than the game experience of a pirate. There lies the golden rule.

I'm sure no-one (bar perhaps EA) would disagree with that.

roberto922
11-09-2008, 20:48
Thank god FM 09won't have limited installs, in the last 6 months my laptop has broken down 3 times and has been formatted by Sony during repair, it'd put me right off if I had to ask for permission to install a game I've paid £30 for.

roberto922
11-09-2008, 20:52
The problem is though with DRM, it can be a real tricky thing. No DRM at all, and you are kind of asking people to pirate the game. Take CM2 for example. Install once, play forever with no CD. What playground didn't have a disk making the rounds?

Hehe those were the days, me and three mates on my street shared a disk for CM 01/02, I used to go for a walk to each house and give them the disk to start their games up before taking the discs out and going to the next one ready for a network game :D

bigdaddydave
11-09-2008, 21:05
It's inevitable, whatever is released will get cracked. Some games however, don't often get cracked due to lack of interest or darnfangled awkward activation systems like eLicense.

Online activation is the only real way nowadays to ensure less piracy happens, sure.. somebody could bypass the activation but that's a hell of alot more work than a crack.

In Spore's case, it's actually more beneficial if you're a regular formatter to own a pirate version as you can install it as many times as you like. The only bad thing is you miss out on user created content. I bought the game especially for the content though.

Games like Sins of a Solar Empire released with no copy protection and was hugely successful, lots of people preordered, it topped the software charts in USA stores and recieved boatloads of praise from the hardcore PC gaming community. Not bad for a game with minimal advertising, riding to success with nothing but solid reviews and a promise of no added rubbish.

I'd like to see FM released without copy protection, or if needs be, online activation. Anything to stop the stupid bug that thinks I'm using a pirate copy, it changes my currency to Euros every few minutes. The best way to annoy a loyal customer since CM2.

Online protection is no more difficult to crack than normal protection. If you look around many commercial software such as Sony products, Adobe etc. which have online activation are easily cracked. Sometimes simply blocking a program accessing the net via a firewall is enough.

r0x0r
11-09-2008, 21:23
Hehe those were the days, me and three mates on my street shared a disk for CM 01/02, I used to go for a walk to each house and give them the disk to start their games up before taking the discs out and going to the next one ready for a network game :D

Back with CM2 you didnt need the disk to start the game at all.

One disk. borrowed once. play CM forever.

The disk swap thing would work today even.

that said, most "pirates" won't be walking up and down a street swapping who has a game to load up, so it's not really an issue.

Nerion
11-09-2008, 23:01
Online protection is no more difficult to crack than normal protection. If you look around many commercial software such as Sony products, Adobe etc. which have online activation are easily cracked. Sometimes simply blocking a program accessing the net via a firewall is enough.

Exactly, the only difference is when it's a multiplayer game. Online functionality can be ripped out/disabled just like any other form of copy protection, but this does little good when the entire game is based on online functionality.

Ranbir
12-09-2008, 01:12
I prefer if SI went with Stardock and the principles (http://www.stardock.com/about/newsitem.asp?id=1095) they laid out to help benefit the industry for everyone. I also recommend reading on Brad's elaboration (http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=994) of those principles.

Although doubtful Sega would be willing to understand?

The only activation I want is when I go to download my free updates and content, where I must prove I bought the game. Given how every game seems to need the updates, I think that'll be a swell idea!

Also, please publish on the Impulse platform!


We know we can't stop it 100%, but we have to try.

I'd prefer that trying went into something that was going to end up 100%. Like further investment into the game itself, or post launch content (more patches and the like)

Don't be fooled in thinking that a pirate sees copy protection and finds himself having to buy the game. He wasn't going to buy the game anyway. Pirates will always pirate, let them. They don't matter. We do, the paying customers. Focus on us. We are buying FM because we like it and want to support you. We're not buying it because of the protection you've put in place.

Themistofelis
12-09-2008, 09:00
Don't be fooled in thinking that a pirate sees copy protection and finds himself having to buy the game. He wasn't going to buy the game anyway. Pirates will always pirate, let them

You are wrong on that , there are many , many game collectors browsing rapidshare for new games to download , play and then buy if they like . Cracked copies are part of marketing because not everyone goes to IGN or gamespot to read about new releases & not everyone trusts sites getting "exclusive reviews/previews " .
Would i ever bought "Oblivion" if i had the chance to play it extensively and not trusting the reviewers who played it for 3-4 hours failing to see how shallow it was?
I think not.

*I am not in any way say that piracy is good , what i am saying is that not all people downloading cracked copies are pirates .

*This does not only applies to software , google and read how "the man from earth" movie became famous

Ranbir
12-09-2008, 10:28
You downloaded it; The protection on it didn't force you to buy the game. Where am I wrong with that?

Themistofelis
12-09-2008, 10:33
You downloaded it; The protection on it didn't force you to buy the game. Where am I wrong with that?

The protection often forces you not to buy the game ;)

Hamenaglar
12-09-2008, 10:33
I think education and lower prices would help much more in lowering down piracy than any form of protection.

DaveRH
12-09-2008, 10:36
*I am not in any way say that piracy is good , what i am saying is that not all people downloading cracked copies are pirates

With a ho ho ho and bottle of rum!

Seriously, "people downloading cracked copies" are pirates (or at least breaking copyright law). They are the targets of DRM and rightly so.

You may think that even a silent minority download games, try them and them purchase the original - but statistically any people like that are insignificant.

Then add to the fact that those same people will think nothing about burning their download onto a CD and giving it to their mates so that they can "try" it too.

DRM is put onto products to protect publishers from exactly this sort of behaviour. If you want to try a game, download a demo. If there isn't a demo available that will probably tell you something.

Ranbir
12-09-2008, 10:37
The protection often forces you not to buy the game ;)

Which is what I said!

I can only direct, again, to the Brad Wardell interview and the principles, which are pretty simple. It is just so brilliantly simple; and it works.

http://community.sigames.com/showpost.php?p=1647712&postcount=97

Hamenaglar
12-09-2008, 10:46
With a ho ho ho and bottle of rum!

Seriously, "people downloading cracked copies" are pirates (or at least breaking copyright law). They are the targets of DRM and rightly so.

You may think that even a silent minority download games, try them and them purchase the original - but statistically any people like that are insignificant.

Then add to the fact that those same people will think nothing about burning their download onto a CD and giving it to their mates so that they can "try" it too.

DRM is put onto products to protect publishers from exactly this sort of behaviour. If you want to try a game, download a demo. If there isn't a demo available that will probably tell you something.

However most people that do so, do not realise they are stealing. That's why education is needed. But unless prices are lowered it will still be an issue (for instance new games cost about of 20% of what my mother earns a month).

DaveRH
12-09-2008, 11:17
However most people that do so, do not realise they are stealing. That's why education is needed. But unless prices are lowered it will still be an issue (for instance new games cost about of 20% of what my mother earns a month).

There's two very different areas of discussion there.

People don't know they're 'stealing'
I completely disagree with this. Surely only the most ignorant person would download a product, then see it for sale in the shops and not think that something was amiss.

What I will say is that I can see that people don't think about it - it doesn't occur to them that what they've done might cost people money. To a degree, I think these are exactly the people that DRM is supposed to foil. Not the hardcore pirates, but the casual ones.

Prices
In terms of the Western markets, I think I'd disagree with you that prices need to be lowered. I've no idea what margins are made on games, but when your average PC games costs the same price as two or three DVDs, or less than a good night on the town then I'd say that it's not an unreasonable price.

At the same time, I think distributers have shot themselves in the foot to a degree with pricing outside the 'developed nations'. A legitimate copy of a game may well cost close to a months wages at RRP in somewhere like Russia and South-East Asia, which obviously is not affordable for the vast majority of people there. You can understand why piracy is so rampant in countries like this. (Apologies for the massive generalisations here, but I hope the point comes across.)

sanjin84
12-09-2008, 11:29
I understand they need to protect their work but SI also needs to understand that they will never stop piracy of their games no matter what they do or even slow it down. Its just impossible....your gonna come up with something and somebody will think of a way to by-pass it, it's just the way it works. What they need to concentrate on are the loyal customers who buy the game every year because its a great product. I would never download any FM, Call of Duty, Total War, Company of Heroes, Age of Empires and so on because I'm a loyal fan of the series. I understand what sweat they put into those games and they are worth every penny. Like somebody said "my game experience should always be equal or greater than the game experience of a pirate". These "protections" in the end only end up ruining the game for the legal buyers and pirates are reaping all the benefits. I'm %100 against DRM because if i pay for the game ITS MINE and i don't want to have any restrictions on my product which i legally bought. Especially when you read on-line that pirated version of the game has no "install limit". It just makes you mad.

Themistofelis
12-09-2008, 11:38
With a ho ho ho and bottle of rum!

Seriously, "people downloading cracked copies" are pirates (or at least breaking copyright law). They are the targets of DRM and rightly so.


Maybe that's why i am running a legally bought copy of spore with a crack over it

/scull and bones mode on

Hamenaglar
12-09-2008, 11:40
There's two very different areas of discussion there.

People don't know they're 'stealing'
I completely disagree with this. Surely only the most ignorant person would download a product, then see it for sale in the shops and not think that something was amiss.

What I will say is that I can see that people don't think about it - it doesn't occur to them that what they've done might cost people money. To a degree, I think these are exactly the people that DRM is supposed to foil. Not the hardcore pirates, but the casual ones.

Prices
In terms of the Western markets, I think I'd disagree with you that prices need to be lowered. I've no idea what margins are made on games, but when your average PC games costs the same price as two or three DVDs, or less than a good night on the town then I'd say that it's not an unreasonable price.

At the same time, I think distributers have shot themselves in the foot to a degree with pricing outside the 'developed nations'. A legitimate copy of a game may well cost close to a months wages at RRP in somewhere like Russia and South-East Asia, which obviously is not affordable for the vast majority of people there. You can understand why piracy is so rampant in countries like this. (Apologies for the massive generalisations here, but I hope the point comes across.)

a) Actually that's why I said education. People don't (especially kids) look at it as stealing because they do not go into the shop and sneak it out of it. Also in Croaita there are actually very few shops with PC game. Looking at the internet I've managed to find only two pc game shops in Zagreb that actually have physical shops, and they don't have all of the games I'd want to play, try... For some games the only way you can get them is by downloading them.

b)Yes, for western markets prices might be okay, but when I've been visiting in ireland I've noticed that prices of everything are double than in croatia, except for pc games (and such products) that cost about the same money (basically exactly what you've said).

Currently I'm looking to buy a certain game, but basically I haven't been able to find it, so I'm left with buying it over the internet through amazon and things like that which I'm unsure about.

philly_flyer10
12-09-2008, 11:40
However most people that do so, do not realise they are stealing. That's why education is needed. But unless prices are lowered it will still be an issue (for instance new games cost about of 20% of what my mother earns a month).

I think you need education yourself.

It is not stealing and that is according to the law.

Taking a game out of the shop is stealing and is a criminal case.

copying a game or downloading it is copyright infringement which is a civil case, not criminal so there for it is not stealing. Someones seen one too many "you wouldnt steal a handbag..." propaganda on DVD intos (which of course are ripped from downloaded DVDs so the pirates never see them and only the people that but them are accused of being thieves.)

Hamenaglar
12-09-2008, 11:45
I think you need education yourself.

It is not stealing and that is according to the law.

Taking a game out of the shop is stealing and is a criminal case.

copying a game or downloading it is copyright infringement which is a civil case, not criminal so there for it is not stealing. Someones seen one too many "you wouldnt steal a handbag..." propaganda on DVD intos (which of course are ripped from downloaded DVDs so the pirates never see them and only the people that but them are accused of being thieves.)

From legal point it may not be stealing, but from a moral one it is (at least as far as I'm concerned).

Bodis
12-09-2008, 11:54
One thing that's been banded about a lot that'd also be a nice touch is a "no cd patch" 2 years after release. I don't know how much SI make from platinum sales of 2 years + games, but chances are they'd lose practicly nothing to piracy, while making it easier for genuine users with old installs who can't find their disks.

SI can't sell their games after it's a year old, due to licences for that game running out.

Nerion
12-09-2008, 16:53
Don't be fooled in thinking that a pirate sees copy protection and finds himself having to buy the game. He wasn't going to buy the game anyway. Pirates will always pirate, let them. They don't matter. We do, the paying customers. Focus on us. We are buying FM because we like it and want to support you. We're not buying it because of the protection you've put in place.

There is so much truth in here..

There are pirates who are not interested in paying for games. Since nowadays people don't have to crack their own software anymore, and fool can get their DRM-free game as long as they know (or are told) where to get it.

There are pirates that are fed up with unfinished games or the large amount of money they need to spend, as they can't check out the full product before they have bought it (in most cases anyway) and feel they have the right to try before they buy.

There's also people who know very well how to get a pirated copy of their game, but for various reasons (ranging from 'wanting to support a developer' to 'being afraid they will get caught').

Now say someone comes up with some fancy new DRM, it is now impossible to properly play a game with this DRM, which unfortunately also causes several legitimate customers issues, because that simply is the trade-off when you want to hit a large enough amount of pirates. So, how will this affect the groups mentioned above?

Will Mr. I-pay-nothing-for-mah-software suddenly feel inclined to buy this product, because he can't get it to work? No. He will move on to a game without this DRM and perhaps waits for the moment when this DRM will get cracked. Because it will always get cracked.

Will Mr. Try-before-I-Buy, who feels screwed by bad buying decisions in the past, suddenly feel that the inability to get this game started is a reason to go out and buy this game? I think it's most likely he will see this as confirmation that it's not safe to just go out and buy a game, as he feels this would've probably happened to a legitimate copy aswell. He will move on to a game without this DRM and perhaps waits for the moment when this DRM will get cracked. Because it will always get cracked.

And then we arrive to the true supporters of the games industry. The people that know they could get a cracked copy, but do not feel inclined to get it. Once they hear about the issues regarding the game, will they still go out and buy it like they intended to? Most probably still will, some might refuse to buy it out of protest, while others will simply wait for the moment when this DRM will get cracked. Because it will always get cracked. So, the game still sold reasonably well, but now the forums get swamped by people who claim that their legitimate copy of the game refuses to work properly. The majority of the supporters will quickly arrive to the conclusion that the people in question must be evil pirates who should get out of here. Some will probably have their doubts, try to be civilised about the whole deal, and then there's the people that got screwed. They might throw the game in the bin, might wait for the crack.. but do you think they'll go out and buy the next installment of this game?

If anybody knows any other group of people, I will gladly inform you why DRM will not make them buy games or how the more invasive kinds of DRM will make some of them consider piracy if they hadn't already.


I am well aware that the games industry (especially the publishers) are not going to drop DRM at this point. However, slowly but surely, some of them are beginning to realize that harming their consumer-base is not helping them. -Everybody- can pirate pretty much any game at the moment. No DRM is going to change this, unless you're into multiplayer games. It's the people that decide whether or not they're going to pay for a game, not the DRM, and once developers and publishers start realizing this, then, maybe, we will see some sensible decisions being made.

geir.mjosund
12-09-2008, 16:57
It is not stealing and that is according to the law.

Taking a game out of the shop is stealing and is a criminal case.


This is the most stupid statement pirates always use. Downloading is also stealing, where do people get this idea.

davestu
12-09-2008, 17:20
This is the most stupid statement pirates always use. Downloading is also stealing, where do people get this idea.


Urm...becuase that is the case to the letter of the law??!!

If you are talking about a morale standpoint here, then I agree with you wholehartedly. However, downloading illegally is a civil copyright case. You can be sued for it by he company, but it is not "stealing" in the truest legal sense of the word. It should be though, and the law needs to be changed do that pirates can be brought to a full criminal stand for their actions. Enough criminal cases and the majority of it would cease.

SmurfDude
12-09-2008, 17:30
http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=994

Really interesting interview

DaveRH
12-09-2008, 17:36
It is not stealing and that is according to the law.

Taking a game out of the shop is stealing and is a criminal case.

copying a game or downloading it is copyright infringement which is a civil case, not criminal so there for it is not stealing. Someones seen one too many "you wouldnt steal a handbag..." propaganda on DVD intos (which of course are ripped from downloaded DVDs so the pirates never see them and only the people that but them are accused of being thieves.)


Urm...becuase that is the case to the letter of the law??!!

If you are talking about a morale standpoint here, then I agree with you wholehartedly. However, downloading illegally is a civil copyright case. You can be sued for it by he company, but it is not "stealing" in the truest legal sense of the word. It should be though, and the law needs to be changed do that pirates can be brought to a full criminal stand for their actions. Enough criminal cases and the majority of it would cease.

tbh both of you need to learn the difference between stealing and theft. FACT, SI, Sega or Joe Bloggs are more than entitled to call it stealing if they want to.

And I don't agree that downloaders should be criminally prosecuted.

Nerion
12-09-2008, 17:44
http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=994

Really interesting interview

Ah man that's good stuff. He explains is very clearly too. Definately a must-read.

philly_flyer10
12-09-2008, 17:49
tbh both of you need to learn the difference between stealing and theft. FACT, SI, Sega or Joe Bloggs are more than entitled to call it stealing if they want to.


Of course they can but they would be wrong. The law all over the world proves that.

It seems youve been taken in by the propaganda campaigns.

davestu
12-09-2008, 17:53
http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=994

Really interesting interview


Thank you, that was a very very good read, well worth it.

davestu
12-09-2008, 18:17
tbh both of you need to learn the difference between stealing and theft. FACT, SI, Sega or Joe Bloggs are more than entitled to call it stealing if they want to.

And I don't agree that downloaders should be criminally prosecuted.

Urm...no. Theft is a characterization of stealing, so no it is not FACT. A company/entity/person cannot simply state anything directly to/about a person/company/entity when the characterization of that statement has legal implications. That would be libelous/slanderous. As Philly Flyer says, what you have stated is a propaganda spin quoted from companies who push anti-piracy campaigns hard. They can get away with it because they accuse no-body directly. They themselves tread on thin ice in this case.

Nobody is entitled to call anyone\anything whatever they feel like "if they want". They may well do, but they are in fact wrong to do so according to law in 99% (made up stat alert!) of the world.

philly_flyer10
12-09-2008, 18:28
I read as that 1st but I think he was referring to the F.A.C.T. (lol at the T, very ironic considering the thread.)

DaveRH
12-09-2008, 18:42
A company/entity/person cannot simply state anything directly to/about a person/company/entity when the characterization of that statement has legal implications. That would be libelous/slanderous. As Philly Flyer says, what you have stated is a propaganda spin quoted from companies who push anti-piracy campaigns hard. They can get away with it because they accuse no-body directly. They themselves tread on thin ice in this case.

Nobody is entitled to call anyone\anything whatever they feel like "if they want". They may well do, but they are in fact wrong to do so according to law in 99% (made up stat alert!) of the world.
'Stealing' is no crime under law. You can be prosecuted criminally for theft, burglary, fraud etc. The dictionary definition of stealing includes: "to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgment" (dictionary.reference.com).

I don't want to bog down a good thread with symantics, but don't jump down the throats of people when you know perfectly well what they mean.

Edit: I really should have put the '.'s in F.A.C.T. Sorry that wasn't clear!

Oktober
12-09-2008, 18:44
The absolute best way to stop piracy is to provide the best after-service possible to consumers. With Spore, Bioshock and the like (and looking like RA3 as well, potentially), the people pirating the game are having all the fun of the game without any of the hassle or worry with it. Clearly there, there's a big advantage to pirating it, so it will continue to thrive.

Say for FM09, theres a fairly basic copy protection thing on it. It hits the torrents within 4 hours of sale. Doh. Then after a week, 9.01 is released. Takes a few days to crack. Week later, 9.02. Bugs cleared up, some badges and kits added. 9.03 after two weeks. All the time, the cracked versions are falling behind while people try and crack the new patches, meaning that legitimate owners are enjoying a much better experience than those who pirated it, who have to make do with the lesser product for a while. Considering most of them are the type who are more about just wanting everything NOW, I doubt interest would be sustainable when they lose a day every 2 weeks in falling behind the legitimate players, having the time of our lives with the new game.

I really think this is the best possible way forward, especially for a game with the size and scope of Football Manager, if only SI could let go of this idea that it 'looks bad that a game needed 20 patches' instead of one 80Mb one in February.

Hamenaglar
12-09-2008, 18:57
The absolute best way to stop piracy is to provide the best after-service possible to consumers. With Spore, Bioshock and the like (and looking like RA3 as well, potentially), the people pirating the game are having all the fun of the game without any of the hassle or worry with it. Clearly there, there's a big advantage to pirating it, so it will continue to thrive.

Say for FM09, theres a fairly basic copy protection thing on it. It hits the torrents within 4 hours of sale. Doh. Then after a week, 9.01 is released. Takes a few days to crack. Week later, 9.02. Bugs cleared up, some badges and kits added. 9.03 after two weeks. All the time, the cracked versions are falling behind while people try and crack the new patches, meaning that legitimate owners are enjoying a much better experience than those who pirated it, who have to make do with the lesser product for a while. Considering most of them are the type who are more about just wanting everything NOW, I doubt interest would be sustainable when they lose a day every 2 weeks in falling behind the legitimate players, having the time of our lives with the new game.

I really think this is the best possible way forward, especially for a game with the size and scope of Football Manager, if only SI could let go of this idea that it 'looks bad that a game needed 20 patches' instead of one 80Mb one in February.

I'd be freaking furious if the game had 20 patches. You can be sure that I'd never buy it.

davestu
12-09-2008, 19:16
'Stealing' is no crime under law. You can be prosecuted criminally for theft, burglary, fraud etc. The dictionary definition of stealing includes: "to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgment" (dictionary.reference.com).

I'll be honest and am not being aggressive with this. I don't understand your point in pulling this up again, when I already told you why you cannot use the term stealing willy nilly either. It is a characterization of theft, and therefore open to the same libelous or slanderous laws as accusing someone of committing theft (not criminal accusations but civil ones obviously). The dictionary may well point towards 'stealing' as appropriation of copyright illegally but the law certainly does not. It seems that the two may be in conflict with one another in this instance. The law has to side on the characterization issue, as you would expect given the world in which we live having lawsuits flying around like nobodies business :)


I don't want to bog down a good thread with symantics, but don't jump down the throats of people when you know perfectly well what they mean.!

I guess I may have come across as jumping down the man's throat when I replied to him. I certainly didn't mean to. I was simply pointing out in less specific terms what I have done in my previous reply to you, as well as this one. I still maintain, that since it cannot be termed stealing just as it cannot be termed theft. I have to say, I didn't know perfectly well what he meant. I apologize for not understanding what it was he was trying to say. I guess looking back I should have just left it well alone, since I shouldn't really care what he thought. After all in a forum everything is everyones opinion, language barriers and proximity tied education (not level of, simply standpoint) always seem to lead to a situation like this.

I agree though, I don't want to tie up this thread with a petty semantics argument, which is exactly what it feels like to me :) I say we leave it where it is and move on, Any good?


Edit: I really should have put the '.'s in F.A.C.T. Sorry that wasn't clear!

Ah...now I see :p

Leeboy
12-09-2008, 21:47
What ever system is used it will be broken, there are far to many brainy people out there not to do it im affraid.

Necrodeemus
12-09-2008, 22:24
Simple really.

Everyone in this country has either internetz or access to a phone. If you have neither then the likelyhood is your not going to have a computer capable of running FM2009. If you dont have either but the computer to run it then you are likely to be in the extreme minority, and there is still access to a phone, just make it clear on the packaging product requires activation by this. Majority of users purchasing this product will have previous incarnations so they aint gonna be put of by this.

So, after we establish that you just make sure that every copy of the game has to be registered via either internet or over the phone.

If customer has to use phone, service rep will put in serial into SI secure online database so that if user does use internet in future it can do a online check.

For all those that have internet, which is alot of us, just make the game do a online check on a server after registration.

Last but not least, employ someone to check all the sites where illegal content can be obtained, check every key given, posted, add it to a list, delete it from servers so online checking can stop those idiots who download illegals!!

HardCode it into the patches so if they do not do internet checks, when they do get a patch copy.. they doomed!

Alot of people have critized DRM, however its the best of a bad situation. Spore sounds kinda bad luck, but how often do people need to install a product on more then 6 machines or on same machine 6 times? And alot of people are bad mouthing EA, which in a way is ok because there product support and product gold releases which are full of bugs are a joke, however anyone who has played Battlefield Series knows how easy online checking can be.

Bobbins71
12-09-2008, 22:37
Only one problem with that matey not everyone lives in Britain...and I will become Pope before New Zealand gets broadband even worthy of the name, never mind fibre optics.

Going off topic, but mobile broadband is already here. Forget fibre optics. You can get HSPA which allows 7.2Mb/s download already, better than a lot of 'wired' broadband packages. 150Mb mobile broadband will be available in a few years (2 to 3 years and it will be commonplace). The best selling mobile device today in Europe isn't a phone, it's the "dongle". New laptops from Xmas from Dell/Toshiba etc will have HSPA fitted inside as standard. The price in Sweden right now is €21/month unlimited. New Zealand has these services already (probably more expensive right now than here in Sweden) but you already have Broadband "worthy of the name". So don't rule out becoming pope just yet.;)

Neji
12-09-2008, 22:38
Simple really.

So simple, pirates still crack just about every game/product that is released

So, after we establish that you just make sure that every copy of the game has to be registered via either internet or over the phone.

Adobe do this and their software is cracked.

If customer has to use phone, service rep will put in serial into SI secure online database so that if user does use internet in future it can do a online check.

And how much money is this going to cost SI exactly?

For all those that have internet, which is alot of us, just make the game do a online check on a server after registration.

Alot of games do this now - you know what? Cracked.

Last but not least, employ someone to check all the sites where illegal content can be obtained, check every key given, posted, add it to a list, delete it from servers so online checking can stop those idiots who download illegals!!

Again, many software developers do this and their software is cracked too.

HardCode it into the patches so if they do not do internet checks, when they do get a patch copy.. they doomed!

Pirates will bypass that with a patch, like they do current server activation.

drunkpunk
12-09-2008, 22:40
http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=994

Really interesting interview

That was really interesting to read, cheers.

Hamenaglar
12-09-2008, 22:49
Simple really.

Everyone in this country has either internetz or access to a phone. If you have neither then the likelyhood is your not going to have a computer capable of running FM2009. If you dont have either but the computer to run it then you are likely to be in the extreme minority, and there is still access to a phone, just make it clear on the packaging product requires activation by this. Majority of users purchasing this product will have previous incarnations so they aint gonna be put of by this.

So, after we establish that you just make sure that every copy of the game has to be registered via either internet or over the phone.

If customer has to use phone, service rep will put in serial into SI secure online database so that if user does use internet in future it can do a online check.

For all those that have internet, which is alot of us, just make the game do a online check on a server after registration.

Last but not least, employ someone to check all the sites where illegal content can be obtained, check every key given, posted, add it to a list, delete it from servers so online checking can stop those idiots who download illegals!!

HardCode it into the patches so if they do not do internet checks, when they do get a patch copy.. they doomed!

Alot of people have critized DRM, however its the best of a bad situation. Spore sounds kinda bad luck, but how often do people need to install a product on more then 6 machines or on same machine 6 times? And alot of people are bad mouthing EA, which in a way is ok because there product support and product gold releases which are full of bugs are a joke, however anyone who has played Battlefield Series knows how easy online checking can be.

You can be sure that I'd never consider buying a game that would have to be activated either by internet or phone. UK and US are not the whole world, also I play games to relax and rest and activating the game is nuisance and therefor kills the very purpose for me.

Also what you fail to understand, games will always be cracked, the reason is quite simple, human beings aren't perfect and therefor can not create a perfect protection.

If indeed the game industry will continue to devise new protections that will hamper loyal and paying customers, I'll rather switch either to books.

Donners
12-09-2008, 22:54
I think Stardock have it best. No DRM on the original release, unique ID on the CD required to get any support, online play and patches. Anything else is just punishing those who do the right thing.

I refuse to buy any game where my title to the game is limited, such as Spore and Mass Effect.

rakhabbit
12-09-2008, 22:55
However, we will do everything we can to ensure that the legitimate customer suffers as little as possible, whilst providing as much protection as possible to stop people stealing our game. We know we can't stop it 100%, but we have to try.

All perfectly understandable.

But you missed the important reason, fewer pirated copies means more legit sales, which means you get paid.

Hamenaglar
12-09-2008, 23:05
All perfectly understandable.

But you missed the important reason, fewer pirated copies means more legit sales, which means you get paid.

I'm not sure what's the point. Ofcourse they'll get paid, we want them to get paid, so they can make a living and continue making and improving this game.

r0x0r
12-09-2008, 23:31
I think education and lower prices would help much more in lowering down piracy than any form of protection.

Fm is usually available for £25 in the UK...

What can you buy for £25? Seriously?

It's not even a night out. Especially in London...

And education? Most pirates are quite educated on the matter. What you need is their good will, which seems to be earnt by producing top quality games with a drm system that doesn't hinder genuine customers.

r0x0r
12-09-2008, 23:42
Simple really.

Everyone in this country has either internetz or access to a phone. If you have neither then the likelyhood is your not going to have a computer capable of running FM2009. If you dont have either but the computer to run it then you are likely to be in the extreme minority, and there is still access to a phone, just make it clear on the packaging product requires activation by this. Majority of users purchasing this product will have previous incarnations so they aint gonna be put of by this.

So, after we establish that you just make sure that every copy of the game has to be registered via either internet or over the phone.

If customer has to use phone, service rep will put in serial into SI secure online database so that if user does use internet in future it can do a online check.

For all those that have internet, which is alot of us, just make the game do a online check on a server after registration.

Last but not least, employ someone to check all the sites where illegal content can be obtained, check every key given, posted, add it to a list, delete it from servers so online checking can stop those idiots who download illegals!!

HardCode it into the patches so if they do not do internet checks, when they do get a patch copy.. they doomed!

Alot of people have critized DRM, however its the best of a bad situation. Spore sounds kinda bad luck, but how often do people need to install a product on more then 6 machines or on same machine 6 times? And alot of people are bad mouthing EA, which in a way is ok because there product support and product gold releases which are full of bugs are a joke, however anyone who has played Battlefield Series knows how easy online checking can be.

So you think it's right to limit to three installations? What about people like me with a laptop used on holiday, and two pc's in the house? If we have to format one, once, we're screwed.

And call in or internet verify is fair enough, if SEGA have phone hotlines open worldwide, 24/7 and manned adequetly to ensure no queues. Microsoft can afford it. Can SEGA? Even then I'd argue it'd have to be a freephone number.

Plus what happens if SEGA/SI go bust in 4 years time, and I want to play FM09? I'm screwed. There lies the biggest problem with online verification.

I'd accept online verification if all those factors were covered, and a year post release, a patch was released that could be applied on top of a new install to verify the game was real in case the company ever folded. A year post-release, who's pirating a football manager game anyway?

Even then, it's a hoop for a genuine user to jump though. Scummy McPegleg, however, grabs his copy from uberdownloadw0rld or whatever next week's hot p2p site is, unzips it, installs it and enjoys. He's sitting back playing the game while you, Mr Honest McBoughtthegame are sitting there with a verification server that's crashed, phonelines with an hour long queue and rising ire.

Will this reduce piracy, or increase it?

r0x0r
12-09-2008, 23:48
All perfectly understandable.

But you missed the important reason, fewer pirated copies means more legit sales, which means you get paid.

Could you show me a single place this has been verified?

Or are you just guessing?

Most people who pirate games probably wouldn't have bought the games they pirate if they weren't free. Show me a solid piece of peer reviewed evidence suggesting that by making a game harder to pirate you increase sales and I'll concede the point to you.

If you want empirical evidence on excessive DRM and it's effect on PC Game Sales though, i suggest you look up Mass Effect. The pc version tanked, mainly because of the DRM included.

Even if harder to pirate meant more games, it'd have to be hard enough to pirate that most people couldn't access it for weeks or months to have any chance of affecting sales one bit. Mass Effect, Bioshock and Spore have been some of the "hardest to pirate" games ever. I could still get a pirate copy of any of the three within a day or two of release if I had chosen to. Pre-release, in Spore and Mass Effect's cases.

Will the fact that it took eXt3m3 Vyp3r 133t 18 hours of hardcore coding to crack a game make any difference to a downloader? No. The game is still up there pre release, downloadable with a click of a mouse, installable with no problems. So how exactly has this extremely hard to break DRM hurt the average downloader? It's given the cracker a challenge, a chance to make a name. That's the only person it's effected.

Other than the genuine user, in extreme examples.

Donners
12-09-2008, 23:55
And call in or internet verify is fair enough, if SEGA have phone hotlines open worldwide, 24/7 and manned adequetly to ensure no queues. Microsoft can afford it. Can SEGA? Even then I'd argue it'd have to be a freephone number.

EA charges $2.50 a minute.

Hamenaglar
13-09-2008, 00:22
Fm is usually available for £25 in the UK...

What can you buy for £25? Seriously?

It's not even a night out. Especially in London...

And education? Most pirates are quite educated on the matter. What you need is their good will, which seems to be earnt by producing top quality games with a drm system that doesn't hinder genuine customers.

I can't speak about UK, but new in croatia new games usually cost about 400 Kn (45 GBP) . The witcher which is a year old game costs about 300 Kn (33 GBP). As far I can see currently Kuna and GBP are 8.9 to 1. I'd say average paycheck in croatia is between 3000 Kn ( 330 GBP) and 4000 Kn ( 450 GBP) but even that might be a too high estimation. So basically the games in croatia cost between 10% and 20% of a paycheck. Oh and just to note, my night out usually doesn't cost more than 5-6 GBPs.

Oh and just to note, as a student, I could probably survive for a week and a half maybe even two weeks on 25 GBPs.

As for education, I mean in terms that most people don't really understand that by buying the game they support the developer to produce new and better games. It's not that they can't grasp that concept, they just don't think about it. If they can get a pirated game for a cost of an empty DVD compared to the £40 the legal game costs it turns out to be simple economics. And yes education is needed because in countries like croatia terem "intellectual property" is almost non-existent, EVERYTHING gets illegally copied here, books, music, movies, software, you name it, we will get you a copy for half the price. And it is quite normal to have illegal copies, nobody is ashamed of that.

and I can assure publishers at one thing. No protection in the world (even the perfect, uncrackable one) will force croats to buy legal games, at least not at the current prices.

kiwityke
13-09-2008, 00:35
Going off topic, but mobile broadband is already here. Forget fibre optics. You can get HSPA which allows 7.2Mb/s download already, better than a lot of 'wired' broadband packages. 150Mb mobile broadband will be available in a few years (2 to 3 years and it will be commonplace). The best selling mobile device today in Europe isn't a phone, it's the "dongle". New laptops from Xmas from Dell/Toshiba etc will have HSPA fitted inside as standard. The price in Sweden right now is €21/month unlimited. New Zealand has these services already (probably more expensive right now than here in Sweden) but you already have Broadband "worthy of the name". So don't rule out becoming pope just yet.;)

I have to use 'broadband' in New Zealand and it is rediculously slow, this was my point, I have broadband, its just cr*p. Thats why I said its not 'worthy of the name broadband'. Our one Major city Auckland might have quick broadband, but we serfs in the South Island countryside certainly don't.

So I won't be getting my Mitre hat out just yet.


Back to the topic and I agree with the majority of people in this topic if FM had protection or not, I don't see how pirates would be put off pirating the game. I have always purchased the game and always will. Pirates will always pirate the game, and always will. I dont see how DRM makes any difference to this.

Whatever FFS
13-09-2008, 03:29
The activation limit on Spore has little to do with anti-piracy and is primarily aimed at reducing the resale value (to nothing) of the game.

philly_flyer10
13-09-2008, 09:54
Heres a good article about spore. http://www.forbes.com/2008/09/12/spore-drm-piracy-tech-security-cx_ag_mji_0912spore.html

Theres loads of people pirating the game including people who would have bought it without the invasive DRM.

The DRM is driving people to pirate the games so they can get a clean install.

JonPaulWild
13-09-2008, 10:16
The activation limit on Spore has little to do with anti-piracy and is primarily aimed at reducing the resale value (to nothing) of the game.

Sad thing is, it is actually morally acceptable to sell a product after you've bought it. But yet the big companies want to try and prevent that, or still profit from it.

Ford don't profit if I sell my car second hand, why should EA profit from a person who's bought the game from profiting again?

Liniert
13-09-2008, 10:20
The activation limit on Spore has little to do with anti-piracy and is primarily aimed at reducing the resale value (to nothing) of the game.

i found this intresting when it was released around the time Spore was...

link (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/ea-second-hand-sales-are-a-critical-situation)

bigdaddydave
13-09-2008, 10:29
This is why consoles are such attractive platforms for games companies. To play a pirated PC you need no modifications and little technical knowledge, On the consoles to play pirated games you either have a "softmod" option such as the PSP and XBox 360 have, or a modchip option like the wii, both methods require you to either pay someone to do it or have the technical skills to perform them yourself and potentially you can damage your console as a result of bad soldering or flashing.

The Nintendo DS is the exception as any idiot can use a flashcard where all you do is copy across the games.

Then you have the PS3 which right now is still not hacked, so you can see why software companies are ****ed when console version massively outsell the pc version even though more people own PC's.

Developers need to figure a way to not use DRM yet still try to stop piracy otherwise the PC gaming market will slowly vanish.

philly_flyer10
13-09-2008, 10:43
Then you have the PS3 which right now is still not hacked, so you can see why software companies are ****ed when console version massively outsell the pc version even though more people own PC's.



More people might own PCs, but how many of them have a computer that costs over a grand that is capable of running the latest games? I bet half those PCs dont even have a graphics card capable of running any game.

philly_flyer10
13-09-2008, 10:46
i found this intresting when it was released around the time Spore was...

link (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/ea-second-hand-sales-are-a-critical-situation)

I love their way of thinking. How do we cut 2nd hand sales? Easy, sell a lot less of the new product!

Bravo EA, Bravo!

The Glory Hunter
13-09-2008, 11:10
DRA is a waste of time. Make it worthwhile for users to register offering bonus material monthly data updates, gameplay guides and registered user only forums.

r0x0r
13-09-2008, 11:15
EA charges $2.50 a minute.

To activate a game you have already paid for?

If i'm asked to call a premium rate line to get my game to install, i'll be visiting the small claims court for my money back on the game.

r0x0r
13-09-2008, 11:17
I can't speak about UK, but new in croatia new games usually cost about 400 Kn (45 GBP) . The witcher which is a year old game costs about 300 Kn (33 GBP). As far I can see currently Kuna and GBP are 8.9 to 1. I'd say average paycheck in croatia is between 3000 Kn ( 330 GBP) and 4000 Kn ( 450 GBP) but even that might be a too high estimation. So basically the games in croatia cost between 10% and 20% of a paycheck. Oh and just to note, my night out usually doesn't cost more than 5-6 GBPs.

Oh and just to note, as a student, I could probably survive for a week and a half maybe even two weeks on 25 GBPs.

As for education, I mean in terms that most people don't really understand that by buying the game they support the developer to produce new and better games. It's not that they can't grasp that concept, they just don't think about it. If they can get a pirated game for a cost of an empty DVD compared to the £40 the legal game costs it turns out to be simple economics. And yes education is needed because in countries like croatia terem "intellectual property" is almost non-existent, EVERYTHING gets illegally copied here, books, music, movies, software, you name it, we will get you a copy for half the price. And it is quite normal to have illegal copies, nobody is ashamed of that.

and I can assure publishers at one thing. No protection in the world (even the perfect, uncrackable one) will force croats to buy legal games, at least not at the current prices.

The problem is if they offer the games at a "reasonable" price in croatia, then tescos can buy a load up there and sell them for £10 each here.

I'm afraid the global economy means that if you want goods from countries with higher average earnings, you tend to have to pay through the nose.

But without it, you couldn't have FM at all.

r0x0r
13-09-2008, 11:20
DRA is a waste of time. Make it worthwhile for users to register offering bonus material monthly data updates, gameplay guides and registered user only forums.

No, small scale DRM is very usefull.

If I could install Football Manager 09 once, then pass it to a friend to do the same, who coul dpass it to a friend to do the same...

Well, I wouldn't now. But if I was 14/15, I probably would.

You suddenly have what would have been 15-20 sales in a classroom becoming 1 sale and 25-30 illegal copies. Yes, some will take a copy even if they wouldn't have bought it, but potential genuine customers will also just install from a friends disk.

It's when DRM starts hurting genuine users, and pirates have a better experience, that DRM is useless.

auto98uk
13-09-2008, 11:27
Of course it will be viable. Good job not everyone is so defeatist, we'd never of got people in to space. "This is impossible, blah blah blah"

I assume you would be paying for all these connections then? Some people may not WANT internet, some people may not be able to AFFORD the internet, some people have a machine set up purely for gaming speed, which means no internet connection, no firewall, no AV etc etc, I'm sure there are other factors too.

The point is that saying you must have internet to play an offline game is wrong as a matter of principle, whether the internet is available or not is pretty irrelevant.

auto98uk
13-09-2008, 11:29
I have no issue with SI Games protecting there rights but we have three PC's in the house (my desktop, laptop and my brothers laptop) and FM is installed in all of them. If it gets to the stage everytime I reinstall I have to phone then I'd be pretty annoyed as I've been a loyal customer who's bought a legit copy of the game since CM 92/93.

PS: I hate even the CD checker... On an old laptop I had my CD drive broke and only way I could play CM was to buy an external USB DVD player :(

You realise that under the current EULA you must have a separate copy for each of those PC's you have it installed in? (unless you uninstall it from them in turn so it is only ever installed in one at a time)

Hamenaglar
13-09-2008, 11:31
The problem is if they offer the games at a "reasonable" price in croatia, then tescos can buy a load up there and sell them for £10 each here.

I'm afraid the global economy means that if you want goods from countries with higher average earnings, you tend to have to pay through the nose.

But without it, you couldn't have FM at all.

Untill they are offered at a reasonable price in croatia, people are simply going to be pirating them.

while I do think that FM and a few other games (Medieval: total war for example) are worth the money they cost, because they have a huge replay value, I'd never pay that kind of money for FPS or an ordinary RTS.

But if prices were to go down in croatia I doubt people would come en masse to buy the games. There are export/import laws, plus the trip to croatia and back would probably cost you more than the game (unless you are coming from neighbouring countries or are anyway planning to come on holiday). I really don't think that lowered prices in croatia would hurt sales in UK.

Neji
13-09-2008, 11:52
Developers need to figure a way to not use DRM yet still try to stop piracy otherwise the PC gaming market will slowly vanish.

Piracy isn't the sole reason for the PC market going downhill. The sales are low because very few people have gaming rigs to play on. The casual market will go out and buy a console much quicker than upgrading a PC. Keeping your PC good enough to play all the best games is much more expensive than spending very little on a 360.


More people might own PCs, but how many of them have a computer that costs over a grand that is capable of running the latest games? I bet half those PCs dont even have a graphics card capable of running any game.

I agree with what you're saying but you don't have to spend anywhere near a grand to have a gaming capable of playing the best games, the problem is keeping it good enough for future games.


You realise that under the current EULA you must have a separate copy for each of those PC's you have it installed in? (unless you uninstall it from them in turn so it is only ever installed in one at a time)

Is that true? I think you're allowed it on multiple PC's in the same household as long as its one person using it. I don't know 100% but I thought thats how it was.

philly_flyer10
13-09-2008, 12:10
You realise that under the current EULA you must have a separate copy for each of those PC's you have it installed in? (unless you uninstall it from them in turn so it is only ever installed in one at a time)

EULAs are worthless unless you cant read them before you buy the game. That was challenged in court in the last couple of years but I believe it was in the US.

I would imagine the UK would follow suit as you cant impose conditions on a sale that are only known after you buy a product.

JonPaulWild
13-09-2008, 12:16
I don't recognize any EULA. Any EULA or contract that can't be read before a financial transaction takes place is obviously invalid in my view.

Ranbir
13-09-2008, 13:49
I linked that interview twice. ><

But we should all pay attention to it. SIGames should too!

r0x0r
14-09-2008, 00:44
You realise that under the current EULA you must have a separate copy for each of those PC's you have it installed in? (unless you uninstall it from them in turn so it is only ever installed in one at a time)

If there was an enforced "1 PC only" rule, I wouldn't buy the product. Simple as that.

Therefore if I buy it, then get hit with that in the EULA, I have a right to my money back, as I hadn't agreed to that term of the contract when I purchased the goods.

Seriously, if SI go down a "1 PC per game bought" route, they'll be handing the keys over to other studios.

It would go down terribly with this community, and fly totally in the face of everything they've ever said and done.

That said, I really can't see it happening. I'm sure Miles doesn't care that I have a sneaky copy on the other half's laptop for when we go to Norway to see her parents. As long as I bought my game CD, haven't used any no CD cracks or the like and only play the game on one PC at a time, where's the problem?

adamosity
15-09-2008, 04:39
I don't believe in stealing games, but at least occasionally manufacturers make the idea of it more tempting.

My current example:

I moved to Korea last month to teach English. My hard drive crashed, and I had to get a new hard drive.

I can't re-download WWSM 2008 because I'm out of region. I don't know how to get a legal copy of FM 2009 with English as a language, because the version they sell here only is in Korean.

What am I supposed to do to play the game I paid for? I've posted on here, and attempted to email, but the emails bounce.

--adam

philly_flyer10
15-09-2008, 10:31
You are legally allowed to download a file from P2P, as long as you dont upload. You've already paid for your licence to use the game. You could also get someone else you trust to download it and then you get it off them.

Svenc
15-09-2008, 10:44
We are trying to come up with a system that sticks within the end user license agreement that have always been in place in our games, and which everyone who has installed a legitimate version of our games has agreed to before installing.

[X]Deal! (http://sleevage.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/dial-a_pirate_spinner.jpg)

Neji
15-09-2008, 12:02
You are legally allowed to download a file from P2P, as long as you dont upload. You've already paid for your licence to use the game. You could also get someone else you trust to download it and then you get it off them.

But if it was FM, for example - you couldn't use it anyway so what would be the point?

philly_flyer10
15-09-2008, 13:16
But if it was FM, for example - you couldn't use it anyway so what would be the point?

Why couldnt he use it?

Neji
15-09-2008, 13:18
Why couldnt he use it?

Because, if it was FM - you would need to use a no-cd crack to be able to play the game, which is illegal.

philly_flyer10
15-09-2008, 15:14
Because, if it was FM - you would need to use a no-cd crack to be able to play the game, which is illegal.

No its not, learn the law instead of parroting what SI say. If no cds are illegal, why are the severs based in the US and Europe not taken down and why isnt the site closed down?

Scotty Walds
15-09-2008, 15:21
No its not, learn the law instead of parroting what SI say. If no cds are illegal, why are the severs based in the US and Europe not taken down and why isnt the site closed down?
No-cd cracks mean the EXE file has been modified, which goes against the EULA

philly_flyer10
15-09-2008, 15:28
No-cd cracks mean the EXE file has been modified, which goes against the EULA

Since when are EULAs above the law of theland?

EULAs are worthless since you cant read them before you purchase the product and its illegal to impose conditions on a purchase after the transaction have taken place?

Scotty Walds
15-09-2008, 15:32
You read them before you install the software though... which is what you pay for. You don't pay for the box and disc directly.

Neji
15-09-2008, 15:34
No its not, learn the law instead of parroting what SI say. If no cds are illegal, why are the severs based in the US and Europe not taken down and why isnt the site closed down?

I'm not 'parroting'. Modifying the game exe is against EULA which you agree to when you install the game.

Not only that but circumventing the security measure is against the EU Copyright Directive.

GerdMuller
15-09-2008, 15:38
i found this intresting when it was released around the time Spore was...

link (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/ea-second-hand-sales-are-a-critical-situation)

"intellectual property"

Ok so this ruels out the good old car sale argument, but i really have never heard authors b*tch when a book is sold a second time. Get over greedy b******.

GerdMuller
15-09-2008, 15:40
[X]Deal! (http://sleevage.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/dial-a_pirate_spinner.jpg)

Damn scanners ;-)

philly_flyer10
15-09-2008, 15:43
I'm not 'parroting'. Modifying the game exe is against EULA which you agree to when you install the game.

Not only that but circumventing the security measure is against the EU Copyright Directive.

So why arent the European servers offering these shut? Can you point to a single incident of anything being done to anyone because of the EULA and not the normal law? Again, EULAs have no basis in law at all.


You read them before you install the software though... which is what you pay for. You don't pay for the box and disc directly.
Ok, so its legal to sell someone a car and then post an EULA on the window they go to pick it up stating they have to give it a £2000 service every week?

Do you really honestly believe any court would rule that legal? Same goes for game EULAs. It doesnt matter when you use the product but if you know before or after the transaction has taken place.

Neji
15-09-2008, 15:50
So why arent the European servers offering these shut? Can you point to a single incident of anything being done to anyone because of the EULA and not the normal law? Again, EULAs have no basis in law at all.

Ok, so EULA's are useless etc etc.

The European Copyright Directive makes it illegal to circumvent copy protection on software.

philly_flyer10
15-09-2008, 16:02
Could you point me to where it says that?

Ched
15-09-2008, 16:14
Could you point me to where it says that?

I had this debate with glyn some time ago

Section 296Z

Fredric Drum
15-09-2008, 16:25
Good to hear, and thank you for your reply.



Problem is though that the software gets cracked and it's on torrent sites within days, so if people want to download it...everyone knows where to go and it will be there. Pretty much making DRM worthless.



I would support a move to the steam platform. What are your thoughts and Segas thoughts regarding Steam?


WSM 2008 is already on Steam, so it can't be that hard! I would love to see FM 2009 on Steam because I don't think FM will be available here in he Philippines, and I would be happy to pay the modest price they charge for it. But Steam would make it available everywhere! Pirated versions feel like damaged goods, and I'll probably just not play it if I can't get it.

Edit: Guess I can have it sent down somehow.

philly_flyer10
15-09-2008, 16:28
I had this debate with glyn some time ago

Section 296Z

That contradicts English law which says you are allowed to make a backup of software bought.

http://www.elspa.com/?l=faq&cat=21

"So far as copyright in software is concerned the law provides that the lawful user may make a backup "where it is necessary for him to have for the purposes of his lawful use".

At best it would go to court because EU law contradicts UK law here.

GillsMan
15-09-2008, 16:35
This is why consoles are such attractive platforms for games companies. To play a pirated PC you need no modifications and little technical knowledge, On the consoles to play pirated games you either have a "softmod" option such as the PSP and XBox 360 have, or a modchip option like the wii, both methods require you to either pay someone to do it or have the technical skills to perform them yourself and potentially you can damage your console as a result of bad soldering or flashing.

The Nintendo DS is the exception as any idiot can use a flashcard where all you do is copy across the games.

Then you have the PS3 which right now is still not hacked, so you can see why software companies are ****ed when console version massively outsell the pc version even though more people own PC's.

Developers need to figure a way to not use DRM yet still try to stop piracy otherwise the PC gaming market will slowly vanish.

I think the thing that PC gaming companies need to think about is how to recoup the money that is obviously lost to piracy. I don't agree they should totally surrender to piracy, but I think there is compelling evidence that overly draconian security measures (DRM, SecureCOM, etc), push some people towards piracy because they believe that, having bought the game, they should be able to play with no problems at all.

As far as I can see there's a couple of ways to extract money beyond the amount you make per sale:

Make more multiplayer games, afaik pirated games tend not to be playable online, because online it's easier to tell if your game is pirated or not (by looking at registration details, etc). This is not a million miles away from EA's contraversial idea of making the game connect to the internet every 10 days, but instead, you're making playing online an essential part of the game. Hardly a radical idea, I know.

More games are being sold as seperate packages, like Spore which released the creature creator first before the rest of the game. Linking that all together (so, for example, you buy the European leagues for FM for £10, then you buy South American leagues for FM for £10, then you buy the rest of the world for £5 = a total of £25). Doing this, it's possible for each component of the game to confirm that the other component is legit. For example, if I pirated the European leagues, then tried to add a pirated version of the South American leagues, the game would detect that the EXEs had been altered and render the game unusuable. I'm sure the pirates would find away around it, but it's worth a shot.

Finally, and perhaps contraversially: allow more ingame advertising. Frankly, I don't really care about advertising, I'm relatively immune to it (presumably because I work for the ASA). I wouldn't mind if Rockstar Games earned money by selling advertising rights in GTA if it means that I, as a PC user, got GTA V at the same time as the consoles, for example. Providing advertising doesn't affect the integrity of the game (and Penguin bar advertising in James Pond II: Robocod back in 1991 didn't), then I don't see what the problem is. Providing the developers/publishers get the money they need to keep making games, that's all that matters.

Just my thoughts.

Neji
15-09-2008, 16:40
I had this debate with glyn some time ago

Section 296Z

Thanks for that, was trying to find where it said was.


"So far as copyright in software is concerned the law provides that the lawful user may make a backup "where it is necessary for him to have for the purposes of his lawful use".

I don't think any of use know as much about law as we need to but making a backup is totally different to circumventing DRM/Copy protection.

philly_flyer10
15-09-2008, 16:42
I dont like advertising if you notice it, ie this chapter is bought to you by ......

I dont mind in game billboards that are part of the scenery and sports games are made for in game advertising as theres advertising all over the pitch or rink IRL. These seem to be totally under utilised in games.

Neji
15-09-2008, 16:42
Gillsman. Making games MMO just for the sake of it would kill gaming. I know I much prefer to play single player and MMO's barely interest me. I know you're not just talking MMO's but single player is what keeps me gaming. Sure I like multiplay but Fm for instance, for me is a single player game.

Seperate parts will only get cracked too, Spore's creature creator was cracked and released within days, I beleive?

laurencefishbone
15-09-2008, 16:44
Not sure how possible this is but...how about SI release the game with no/little copy protection and then flood the 'pirate community' with hundreds of fake FM torrents or torrents that play the game up until a certain point (say 4 hours play time or 2 seasons, whichever is the greater) and then the game fails in various amusing ways etc... They say the game is going to be at DVD length so > 700mb and then people will spend between 5 minutes and say 1 day (depending on net connection) downloading it and will get continually peeved with downloading duds that break after that period.

I am all for the Steam route being available from day 1 as I would love FM to be disc free (especially as the other half almost ruined FM08 after putting her drink on it thinking it was a coaster!)

philly_flyer10
15-09-2008, 16:45
Thanks for that, was trying to find where it said was.



I don't think any of use know as much about law as we need to but making a backup is totally different to circumventing DRM/Copy protection.

Not when the only way to make a backup is to circumvent that DRM. The DRM could be depriving the user of making that backup and as such, could be illegal.

I dont think any publisher will ever use that EU law in a UK court because a UK court could rule that the UK law overides EU law and that would be bad for publishers.

Scotty Walds
15-09-2008, 16:46
Ok, so its legal to sell someone a car and then post an EULA on the window they go to pick it up stating they have to give it a £2000 service every week?
:confused: Bad comaprison. A car isn't a piece of software, you actually physically buy the car - whereas with software, you don't; you're paying for a license to run the software on 1 computer.

Neji
15-09-2008, 16:48
Not when the only way to make a backup is to circumvent that DRM. The DRM could be depriving the user of making that backup and as such, could be illegal.

I dont think any publisher will ever use that EU law in a UK court because a UK court could rule that the UK law overides EU law and that would be bad for publishers.

Using a backup is circumventing the DRM. Making a backup isn't.

Like I said, this debate is probably left alone because I doubt either of us know the intricate ins and outs of the laws system. It's all ifs, buts and grey areas.

philly_flyer10
15-09-2008, 16:50
Using a backup is circumventing the DRM. Making a backup isn't.

Like I said, this debate is probably left alone because I doubt either of us know the intricate ins and outs of the laws system. It's all ifs, buts and grey areas.

I agree its a grey area but that means you cant say using a no cd is illegal. Its never gone through the courts. Not one single person to my knowledge has ever been had up for it.

Neji
15-09-2008, 16:52
I agree its a grey area but that means you cant say using a no cd is illegal. Its never gone through the courts. Not one single person to my knowledge has ever been had up for it.

I'm not going to carry on with this because we will just go around in circles.

Ched
15-09-2008, 17:28
That contradicts English law which says you are allowed to make a backup of software bought.

http://www.elspa.com/?l=faq&cat=21

"So far as copyright in software is concerned the law provides that the lawful user may make a backup "where it is necessary for him to have for the purposes of his lawful use".

At best it would go to court because EU law contradicts UK law here.

That section was removed/edited for the latest version of uk copyright law (section 55 irrc) hence the contradiction no longer exists - i agree fully, when 296z was initially implemented, it cause a bit of an issue as technically the use of anti-piracy software was illegal as it prevented the user from exercising (sp) their legal right to back up software.

Ched
15-09-2008, 17:29
But as with neji, i'll leave it up to you what you consider illegal, i can't be bothered debating this further - all i can say is this has all been said before. (unfortunately the forum purge removed the me vs glyn thread on the matter - suffice to say i, like you are now, was wrong)

Neji
15-09-2008, 17:35
That section was removed/edited for the latest version of uk copyright law (section 55 irrc) hence the contradiction no longer exists - i agree fully, when 296z was initially implemented, it cause a bit of an issue as technically the use of anti-piracy software was illegal as it prevented the user from exercising (sp) their legal right to back up software.

Does that mean I can carry on to say No-CD Cracks are illegal??? :D

philly_flyer10
15-09-2008, 17:43
That section was removed/edited for the latest version of uk copyright law (section 55 irrc) hence the contradiction no longer exists - i agree fully, when 296z was initially implemented, it cause a bit of an issue as technically the use of anti-piracy software was illegal as it prevented the user from exercising (sp) their legal right to back up software.

Can you provide a link to that as Id have thought the official uk software association would have had the most up to date info on their site.

Deeman
15-09-2008, 17:55
I've been thinking about this a lot recently. It really gets on my tits because there is no solution. Its in the companies interest to protect its software, but it should not be at the expense of the consumer. But thats just it, that solution doesn't exist. The guy(s) that figures out how to protect software that is transparent to, and doesn't impact the experience of, the user is going it be a multi-billionaire. I'm really suprised that this isn't something that hundreds of companies are not pumping money into. I'd have thought that more independant companies would be doing so, as opposed to attaching themselves to publishers.

What makes me laugh is that its probably the pirates who are in the best position to become that guy/those guys. They obviously know security and DRM issues inside out, they are quite talented, and instead of getting all this free stuff and sharing it. They could be making a mint, much more than the software would be worth.

This arguement isn't going to go away until the technology is there. When it is, its all going to be a moot point. We will all have to pay for software, but it wouldn't be hampered by bad design. The question is what to do in the mean time. I would be interested if a company went the complete extreme. Offered a pay to download game, that has no protection at all. No key, no need for disc, no DRM, no nothing. Imagine what would happen if a triple A game was release like that. I have no idea what the results would be, but either way it would be interesting to see what happens. What if no one bought it? Then we'd all be screwed cos then they'll be like 'We told you so, we have to protect our software.'.

It all boils down to individuals. Isn't there that old question about the beautiful woman that came down from space, and asked you to sleep with her. You're married but afterwards she would fly away and never come back. No one would know. Would you do it? Its the same with the DRM issue, are you justified in pirating software if as a consumer you are worst off? should you buy it and then use a cracked version anyway?

The point is that the ONLY way to solve this issue is to develop the technology to prevent piracy. Because the other end of the scale (no DRM, no protection, no key) will just be abused. FACT. So get your thinking caps on fellas.

Just what i think anyways. Nobody that could make a difference really cares what we say on the internet. :D

Äktsjon Männ
15-09-2008, 19:07
I would be interested if a company went the complete extreme. Offered a pay to download game, that has no protection at all. No key, no need for disc, no DRM, no nothing. Imagine what would happen if a triple A game was release like that. I have no idea what the results would be, but either way it would be interesting to see what happens. What if no one bought it? Then we'd all be screwed cos then they'll be like 'We told you so, we have to protect our software.'.Stardock pretty much did that with Sins of a Solar Empire. In addition to not having any DRM or copy protection you are also entitled to return it if it won't run on your computer. You can take it out of the box, try it and if it won't run on your comp you can send it back to them and they'll offer you full refund without asking any further questions. It has now sold over 500,000 copies with 200,000 of those in the first month (according to Wikipedia) and there certainly hasn't been any mass-pirating caused by their methods. There is a link to an article with Brad Wardell above in this thread where he explains his views on this matter. Now let's compare that to EA and Spore - this game has the most ridiculous and overly restrictive DRM that is in itself bordering on legal infringement. Yet it has now been downloaded illegally over 500,000 times which as of now makes it the most pirated game ever.

I honestly wish other game publishers would start to notice the pattern in all this.

philly_flyer10
15-09-2008, 20:12
Exactly, concentrate on improving the customers experience rather than punishing the people who bought the game or driving them to pirate it to get a clean install.

The trouble is just about all the people in the music, film or games industry dont appreciate this and Im really glad it worked for Stardock who went against the norm and it paid off massively for them.

r0x0r
15-09-2008, 23:29
Untill they are offered at a reasonable price in croatia, people are simply going to be pirating them.

while I do think that FM and a few other games (Medieval: total war for example) are worth the money they cost, because they have a huge replay value, I'd never pay that kind of money for FPS or an ordinary RTS.

But if prices were to go down in croatia I doubt people would come en masse to buy the games. There are export/import laws, plus the trip to croatia and back would probably cost you more than the game (unless you are coming from neighbouring countries or are anyway planning to come on holiday). I really don't think that lowered prices in croatia would hurt sales in UK.

Individuals won't. Big companies will. Our biggest supermarket, Tescos, have done it with big brand clothing for a while, buying it on the "gray" market.

One problem is Croatia is due to join the EU in just over a year. The trade barriers, especially for big companies, will fall. Another is if it's £10 in Croatia, why not in Romania too, who are already EU? So even the 2 year gap dissapears.

Let me ask you. If you could buy it for £10, what will the retailers get it for? £5?

And when one of those makes a deal with a big UK company, who can now sell the game for £15, who loses a load of money, seeing as their game is being sold to retailers for £5 rather than the normal £15 or so? Sega / SI.

In a global economy, especially when in Europe and looking to join the EU, you have to put up with global pricing.

Dropping the price to be acceptable in Croatia, Romania and other poorer countries would be worse for SI than the piracy the current prices cause. They'd lose more money by opening up a gray market than they'd gain in Croatia.

r0x0r
15-09-2008, 23:37
I think a worldwide (rather than just American) steam release (or similar download service), verified every few days so we can still play on the train as long as we were on the net yesterday and it was okayed, would be absolutely perfect for me. But only based on these three conditions:

It shouldn't cost more than the generic shop / online price, which will probably settle at £25 as usual. I'd do £30 but not a penny more.

It should be available to pre-download a few days pre-release, with a small release day download to complete the game. Release should be the same date as the street release. No waiting.

It should have some sort of feature where you don't always have to be online to start the game, as long as you are online once every few days for it to verify. If my net goes down, FM is often my only savior.


Give me these three things and I'll cancel my Amazon pre-order.


edit: Actually, a fourth. I should be able to install it on a few computers. Perhaps a system where it keeps the pc hardware image of three computers online linked to my account. If i reformat, it'll install, recognise my pc and be fine. If i trash one pc and buy a new one, I'd be able to "unlicence" the old PC so when it next called home it'd be told "no", opening a spot for my new pc.

Hamenaglar
15-09-2008, 23:41
Individuals won't. Big companies will. Our biggest supermarket, Tescos, have done it with big brand clothing for a while, buying it on the "gray" market.

One problem is Croatia is due to join the EU in just over a year. The trade barriers, especially for big companies, will fall. Another is if it's £10 in Croatia, why not in Romania too, who are already EU? So even the 2 year gap dissapears.

Let me ask you. If you could buy it for £10, what will the retailers get it for? £5?

And when one of those makes a deal with a big UK company, who can now sell the game for £15, who loses a load of money, seeing as their game is being sold to retailers for £5 rather than the normal £15 or so? Sega / SI.

In a global economy, especially when in Europe and looking to join the EU, you have to put up with global pricing.

Dropping the price to be acceptable in Croatia, Romania and other poorer countries would be worse for SI than the piracy the current prices cause. They'd lose more money by opening up a gray market than they'd gain in Croatia.

First of all, I don't believe croatia will join EU in 1 year, maybe (just maybe) in four, but that's not the point. There is a point in what you say, however I'm sure there are systems that could lead to selling of legal copies (or at least gaining more profit) from games in croatia and other poor countries ( I have a couple of ideas). However the point is the current way of fighting piracy will not generate higher sales, even if piracy rate drops it will not generate higher sales, because people who are playing illegal games usually don't have the intention or can't afford the games at current prices.

busby
16-09-2008, 00:10
DRM Does not work!

GillsMan
16-09-2008, 00:17
You may find this article on No CD cracks and the legality of them useful. Doesn't add weight to either argument, but it's interesting nonetheless:

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/14843.cfm

philly_flyer10
16-09-2008, 00:25
Id change your post if I were you Busby, you may be banned from here even thought most of us understand why you did it.

DaveRH
16-09-2008, 12:43
[Sins of a Solar Empire] has now sold over 500,000 copies with 200,000 of those in the first month (according to Wikipedia) and there certainly hasn't been any mass-pirating caused by their methods.... let's compare that to EA and Spore - this game has the most ridiculous and overly restrictive DRM that is in itself bordering on legal infringement. Yet it has now been downloaded illegally over 500,000 times which as of now makes it the most pirated game ever.

I honestly wish other game publishers would start to notice the pattern in all this.

I'd completely dispute your 'pattern'.

a) Sins of a Solar Empire is widely available for illegal download. Personally I'd say that Sins sold 500k copies since release because it is apparently a very good game - very little to do with DRM.

b) I doubt very much that your average downloader justifies downloading a game 'because they didn't like the DRM'. They download it because they can. I'd also say that Spore was the most anticipated game of the year (by a country mile) so it's no surprise that it is heavily downloaded - I would suggest that would have happened regardless of the DRM involved.

Don't get me wrong... I'm not a fan of DRM as it exists at the moment, but at present something is better than nothing. SI/Sega have never announced more restrictive DRM than they use at the moment and - despite the occasional hissy fit when you're using DVD drive emulators - I don't think it's too bad at the moment.

Personally speaking, I can't see a more reliable method at the moment than remote authorization via internet or telephone - but overall that could be a hugely expensive operation for Sega; I'd suspect it would cost more than it would gain and - still - it would only be a matter of time before it was cracked.

Neji
16-09-2008, 13:16
I'd completely dispute your 'pattern'.

a) Sins of a Solar Empire is widely available for illegal download. Personally I'd say that Sins sold 500k copies since release because it is apparently a very good game - very little to do with DRM.

b) I doubt very much that your average downloader justifies downloading a game 'because they didn't like the DRM'. They download it because they can. I'd also say that Spore was the most anticipated game of the year (by a country mile) so it's no surprise that it is heavily downloaded - I would suggest that would have happened regardless of the DRM involved.

Don't get me wrong... I'm not a fan of DRM as it exists at the moment, but at present something is better than nothing. SI/Sega have never announced more restrictive DRM than they use at the moment and - despite the occasional hissy fit when you're using DVD drive emulators - I don't think it's too bad at the moment.

Personally speaking, I can't see a more reliable method at the moment than remote authorization via internet or telephone - but overall that could be a hugely expensive operation for Sega; I'd suspect it would cost more than it would gain and - still - it would only be a matter of time before it was cracked.

Actually, Spore is so pirated because of the DRM. I've read ALOT of reviews on the net from people who buy game but have pirated Spore because af the ridiculous DRM.

DRM may not account for it but it wouldn't have been illegally downloaded so much without it, thats a certainty.

The example of SOASE is that if you focus on making a good game, it will sell. Less time spent on idiotic DRM, the better the game can be. Companies should worry about making a good game in the first place, rather than protecting absolute *****.

Äktsjon Männ
16-09-2008, 18:06
I'd completely dispute your 'pattern'.

a) Sins of a Solar Empire is widely available for illegal download. Personally I'd say that Sins sold 500k copies since release because it is apparently a very good game - very little to do with DRM.

b) I doubt very much that your average downloader justifies downloading a game 'because they didn't like the DRM'. They download it because they can. I'd also say that Spore was the most anticipated game of the year (by a country mile) so it's no surprise that it is heavily downloaded - I would suggest that would have happened regardless of the DRM involved.

Don't get me wrong... I'm not a fan of DRM as it exists at the moment, but at present something is better than nothing. SI/Sega have never announced more restrictive DRM than they use at the moment and - despite the occasional hissy fit when you're using DVD drive emulators - I don't think it's too bad at the moment.

Personally speaking, I can't see a more reliable method at the moment than remote authorization via internet or telephone - but overall that could be a hugely expensive operation for Sega; I'd suspect it would cost more than it would gain and - still - it would only be a matter of time before it was cracked.

a) You're kind of missing the point. The direction Stardock took with Sins of a Solar Empire meant that in theory anyone could buy the game, make a personal copy, distribute a copy over the internet, lend the game to all their friends and then send it back to get a full refund. If you chose to listen what all the major game publishers have to say about copy protection then you couldn't help but think that this was in fact the only possible scenario. Yet nothing like it happened. Yes Sins is a great game, but that's part of the point. They focus on making the whole game experience better and people buy it regardless of whether they can pirate it or not. Yes it is still pirated, but not more than it would have with a copy protection, possibly even less. But the game has also sold way more copies than they expected. Which means they haven't lost any sales due to not using any protection, I'd even go as far to say they have actually gained a few. Which kind of defies the point of having excessive methods of CP.

b) If you had read the Amazon reviews of Spore before EA started to mass delete all the negative ones you would have seen that there are actually hundreds, if not thousands of people publicly saying exactly what you said they wouldn't. Sure, some of them were just lying and not going to buy it anyway. But that must be a minority because, you know what, pirates don't find it necessary to complain about copy protection or DRM. Why would they, it doesn't affect them in any way whatsoever.

Also, Spore was a vey much anticipated game, but it's not like there hasn't been much anticipated games before. It is now going to be the most pirated game ever though, gaining 500,000 downloads in it's first few weeks, which is more than twice of the previous record (over the two week period). It would be naive to think there's nothing more to it than the usual hype.

The EA's DRM debacle is a huge disappointment for me because while it obviously doesn't work they're still going to include it in their future games. I couldn't care less about Spore personally, but they've already confirmed the DRM is going to be in Red Alert 3. This was one of the few games over the last couple of years that I've actually anticipated (apart from FM's of course) but now I'm not going to buy it. I'm also not going to pirate it so this means I can't play it. Which is sad, but a man must have some principles.

Dreaded Walrus
17-09-2008, 16:39
Actually, Spore is so pirated because of the DRM. I've read ALOT of reviews on the net from people who buy game but have pirated Spore because af the ridiculous DRM.

DRM may not account for it but it wouldn't have been illegally downloaded so much without it, thats a certainty.

I'd like to agree with this. I know a lot of people who would have bought it, but downloaded it illegally specifically because of the DRM. Indeed, I know some people who have no intention of even playing it, but downloaded it as a statement.

The people who downloaded it but would have bought it previously have different reasons. One reason I have seen is that they would have downloaded it from EA's online store, but EA have actually said that if you buy the game from their online store, that download is only good for six months. After that, you would have to buy the game again in order to download it again. And then there's the whole three/five install limit. Now, sure, many people will only install the game once, but I'm sure we all have games from the past that we reinstall every couple of years to give them a go, right?

For me, I probably reinstall Black and White every couple of years and give it a go. I used to do the same thing with Dungeon Keeper 2 every time my brother came round, and I'm sure we've all done the same thing with our own favourite games. Now, it's all fine being able to call up EA and get it reactivated after the install limit "on a case-by-case basis", but EA is known for halting customer support for older titles after a period of time. Are we really to believe that EA would be reactivating my Dungeon Keeper 2 install over the phone after all these years? Twenty years down the line, will they be reactivating Spore if someone calls up who has gone over the install limit?

In addition to this, each copy of Spore can only be linked to one account (http://consumerist.com/5048556/want-more-than-one-account-on-yourspore-game-buy-another-copy-sucker).

Despite all these efforts of EA with Spore, it appeared for illegal download online, fully cracked and working, before it even hit the shops. These DRM methods clearly do nothing to prevent illegal downloading. And when they're as bad as Spore's, they actually turn legitimate users away from purchasing, and towards downloading illegally.

The real purpose behind EA's DRM methods are to eliminate the second-hand market. When a game is bought pre-owned from Gamestation or what have you, 100% of the revenue goes to the retailer. Therefore, for every person who buys a game preowned rather than brand new, EA gets the same amount of money as if it was downloaded illegally.

However, if each legit copy of Spore only allows one account, and if each copy of Spore can only be installed three-to-five times and so on, then shops simply can't take it in and sell it pre-owned. Try trading in your legit copy of Spore. They won't take it in, because it can only be linked to one account (despite the manual saying that multiple accounts can be used. Seriously, try creating a second account for a family member, it won't allow it). This is what's most disgusting about EA's DRM for Spore, and what has made many people download it illegally.

/rant

(for the record, I couldn't bring myself to pirate Spore, as I had been looking forward to it for so long, and regardless of how EA have ruined it with DRM, Maxis had put a lot of effort into the game, and I couldn't let years of development go unrewarded)

philly_flyer10
17-09-2008, 16:55
The real purpose behind EA's DRM methods are to eliminate the second-hand market. When a game is bought pre-owned from Gamestation or what have you, 100% of the revenue goes to the retailer. Therefore, for every person who buys a game preowned rather than brand new, EA gets the same amount of money as if it was downloaded illegally.

Their brilliant decision to slash the number of second hand sales was to drastically reduce the number of brand new sales.

Neji
17-09-2008, 16:58
For me, I probably reinstall Black and White every couple of years and give it a go. I used to do the same thing with Dungeon Keeper 2 every time my brother came round, and I'm sure we've all done the same thing with our own favourite games.

I'll go for that. Games such as Fallout is something I've played over the years and I can also see my installing KOTOR again sometime soon (I've already installed and completed it twice). Max Payne is something I've also just dug out and installed again.

Dreaded Walrus
17-09-2008, 17:11
I'll go for that. Games such as Fallout is something I've played over the years and I can also see my installing KOTOR again sometime soon (I've already installed and completed it twice). Max Payne is something I've also just dug out and installed again.

Exactly! And then there's always the possibility of publishers going bust, which happens occasionally, or getting bought out. Obviously a bust publisher can't exactly continue to offer reactivations after install limits, and a publisher under new ownership may or may not continue that service.

Granted, EA isn't exactly likely to go bust or be bought out any time soon, but there's still the fact that we are at their whim as they can stop customer support for an old title at their leisure.

It's because of this that I probably won't uninstall Spore now, even if I don't end up playing it from this point for months at a time. It's just not worth all the hassle.

(Oh, and after my rant above, if anyone doubts whether I actually bought the game, feel free to view my rubbishy online profile (http://www.spore.com/view/profile/DreadedWalrus). The illegal version doesn't have online functionality, for obvious reasons)

Äktsjon Männ
17-09-2008, 17:48
I would open a bottle of very good champagne if EA were to go bankrupt. The dev studios that they've bought out and ruined really don't deserve the hard time they get because of that utterly despicable company.

Dreaded Walrus
17-09-2008, 17:57
I would open a bottle of very good champagne if EA were to go bankrupt. The dev studios that they've bought out and ruined really don't deserve the hard time they get because of that utterly despicable company.

To be fair, they had been improving recently, at least in terms of quality.

I found Skate, for example, to be thoroughly enjoyable, and I've poured hour after hour into that, even after completing it. Likewise I enjoyed Fight Night Round 3, and Burnout Paradise. Crysis, too.

I do agree with you in general though, I dislike EA in general as much as the next guy. It's just a shame that they had seemingly been turning the corner lately, and then they go and do this, screwing over the customer.


I'm sure we can rest safe in the fact that no matter what SI end up doing, it won't be as bad as Spore's DRM.

Neji
17-09-2008, 18:00
I do agree with you in general though, I dislike EA in general as much as the next guy. It's just a shame that they had seemingly been turning the corner lately, and then they go and do this, screwing over the customer.

I agree 100%. I was beginning to like EA, they have been showing signs of change but after this whole DRM thing - it just goes to show that they haven't really changed at all.

Glyn
17-09-2008, 18:23
Not when the only way to make a backup is to circumvent that DRM. The DRM could be depriving the user of making that backup and as such, could be illegal.

I dont think any publisher will ever use that EU law in a UK court because a UK court could rule that the UK law overides EU law and that would be bad for publishers.

EU Law supercedes UK Law. I don't know of any exception to this at all.

philly_flyer10
17-09-2008, 18:46
EU Law supercedes UK Law. I don't know of any exception to this at all.

It wouldnt bother me or anyone I know if it did.

Theres lots of ******** laws, I believe your only allowed to keep copies of Tv programs for a certain amount of time but does anyone erase their VCR/DVR after that time if they havent watched the said program?

Same goes for this.

busby
24-09-2008, 15:45
Well why do we pritate software:

a) because it's fun(In spore's case actually better then playing the game).
b) because we can.
c) because we are going to be treated like criminal's anyway.