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Klimowicz
08-09-2008, 17:41
sevilla, season 5. just played the second leg of the Euro Cup 1st knockout phase, 5-0 up on aggregate after beating Wisla away. i was 3-0 up at home at half time and just as i was about to submit a "pleased" team talk, i noticed that my CB Pichu Atienza (4th down) has a rating of THREE out of 10. i couldn't quite understand why, the only explaination is that he had 1 of 6 headers on target... but a rating of 3 when your team is 8-0 up with 45 minutes to go is a little dumb? i've not had an individual player rating lower than 5, but thats usually after a trip to the bernabeau etc...

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k212/om3ga_0/atienza2.jpg

needless to say, i told him i was angry. he became "really fired up" and scored in the second half in another 5-0 win.

i know it might happen irl from time to time, but it just makes little sense that my keeper took 6 goal kicks all game and gets a 7 by half time (only 2 were completed passes), and you can see from the image above a 6/7 would have been more appropreate for Pichu after winning 12/14 headers.

not a moan, just thought it was a little queer. :)

rinso
08-09-2008, 17:44
seems very strange, doesnt look as though he's played that badly at all! only thing i can think of is maybe he mad a couple of mistakes that lead to chances for the opposition??

Bodis
08-09-2008, 17:51
Its his ex wife whos dishing out the ratings!

No, seriously, that is more than a little odd, not seen anything like this so far.

isuckatfm
08-09-2008, 17:58
Did he make any mistakes that were noted in the commentary? That'll bring a player's rating down like a lead balloon.

Klimowicz
08-09-2008, 18:03
i read the commentary, he was solid apart from missing chances from corners, all of which were narrowly over etc...

it's the fact that me telling him i was angry saw his performance improve by 5! i've never seen such a drastic reaction to team talk before. the opposition had 2 or 3 off target shots i think, so it wasn't that...

r0x0r
08-09-2008, 20:46
Perhaps while he was tackling well when he got near the ball, he was constantly being caught hopelessly out of position leading to holes in the formation?

Perhaps he was having a stinker of the type stats can't show?

Perhaps he wandered off distracted by a butterfly when the oposition midfielder was bombing towards your goal?

Or were his passes to teammates... but ones in trouble? So even though he gets a tick next to "pass complete" he's damaged your team with the pass?

Uploading the match for us to watch might let us figure it out :-p

Klimowicz
09-09-2008, 00:32
http://files.filefront.com/Sevilla+v+Wisla+atienzapkm/;11736334;/fileinfo.html

my players enjoy giving away the ball often, but i doubt they did for any or wislas 2 off target shots all game. even the HT text report suggested that he didn't do much wrong, or at least nothing to warrant a 3. i haven't watched the match since, but i doubt there was an obvious incident.

tdc5013
10-09-2008, 07:48
I see something else weird there, 3-0 and I can only see 2 scorers, both on 1 goal. WHAT!?

aenariel
10-09-2008, 08:18
I see something else weird there, 3-0 and I can only see 2 scorers, both on 1 goal. WHAT!?

Own goal, I bet. :)

tdc5013
10-09-2008, 18:16
Own goal, I bet. :)

Ah, that never occured to me.

presumingpete
10-09-2008, 19:50
6 shots on goal seems a lot for a centre back, did you change his position by accident then change it back?

NepentheZ
10-09-2008, 19:51
6 shots, 1 on target is why he would have got a LOW rating. But a 3.!! :eek: - Thats just stupid.

Ryan,,,
10-09-2008, 20:05
I had a player who scored a hat-trick and only got a seven the other day.

r0x0r
10-09-2008, 21:02
So why was he on a 4?

He was being judged on two things. Defensive and attacking play. attacking, he had a gazillion chances from set peices and fluffed every one. One on target but saved, most miles wide. That's a bad show.

Defensive? Toss the ball forward hopefully and he dominated. if the striker touched the ball he'd get straight in and win it back. Usually he'd just beat the striker to it.
However, get passing going in his own half, players running at him, passing around him, and he loses his head totally. His marking is gone, positioning awful... Basically when it comes to real defending rather than stopping speculative hoofs, his game goes to hell.

In the second half he scores a header. This boosts him massively and instantly. After this he hardly sees the ball from set pieces, and the opponents rarely venture into his half.

To sum it up: goods: dealing with speculative hoofs at his striker. bads: misses a ton of chances and can't defend under any pressure at all.

What's his marking, decisions and composure like?

r0x0r
10-09-2008, 21:02
6 shots on goal seems a lot for a centre back, did you change his position by accident then change it back?

watch the game. all from corners, and all terrible.

r0x0r
10-09-2008, 21:03
6 shots, 1 on target is why he would have got a LOW rating. But a 3.!! :eek: - Thats just stupid.

It's not just that.

While his defensive stats look good, all his successes come from speculative balls at his striker, who has his back to goal near the half way line.

The second play goes into his half he becomes a headless chicken.

Second half, post goal, that just doesnt happen luckily for him. :-p

saved_by_barry_horne
10-09-2008, 21:11
The oddest thing is that Ugartetxea who i assume is his central defensive partner made 0 tackles and won 0 headers still managed a 7

Amaroq
10-09-2008, 21:18
Haven't watched the match, myself, but if r0x0r's analysis is correct - and I have no reason to doubt one of the class posters in GQ on this - its actually very encouraging news about match ratings, implying that they are a lot more sophisticated than the simple numerical formulae I had assumed that they were.

r0x0r
10-09-2008, 21:22
The oddest thing is that Ugartetxea who i assume is his central defensive partner made 0 tackles and won 0 headers still managed a 7

He was also a lot more composed...

didn't have any real work to do though!

Plus he didnt have a million chances at corners, which probably had a big effect too.

r0x0r
10-09-2008, 21:39
Haven't watched the match, myself, but if r0x0r's analysis is correct - and I have no reason to doubt one of the class posters in GQ on this - its actually very encouraging news about match ratings, implying that they are a lot more sophisticated than the simple numerical formulae I had assumed that they were.

That said, there's every chance it was just the missed headers causing the rating...

Or even the missed headers causing the rating, adn the poor rating causing the poor defending? that'd be worrying.

Amaroq
11-09-2008, 00:36
Yuck. That would be very worrying.

Klimowicz
11-09-2008, 12:12
just watched the whole match in split view (pitch and sevilla ratings)...

-10 minutes he had a 7
-18 minutes he had a 6 despite several passes which set up an attack each time
-27 minutes down to a 5 when he was going forward for a corner, he missed the header
-28 minutes he got a 4 after he won a freekick from the goal kick he conceded
-34 minutes 3 after retreating to the half way line following a cleared corner, which resulted in a second corner

the only thing i can conclude from the first half is that he wasn't that much involved as the stats in the screenshot suggest, and that he was probably set to man marking and the striker on their right was moving between my LB and Pichu quite often, but then the timeline above wouldn't fit that pattern...

-56 minutes up to 4 after sevillas 4th goal (straight after kick-off, he wasn't involved in the build up)
-60 minutes, back down to 3 after a team mate conceded a throw in on the opposite wing
-63 minutes up to 4 after winning a corner from a cleared corner
-64 scored from the corner he won, still a 4 until he crossed the halfway line to get back into position, where it doubled to an 8

not much different from the first half performance after that, interceiptions, tackles, defensive headers etc... and he stayed on an 8.

one notable observation i made was that the striker who was drifting between pichu and emmanuelson was switched to the other side. i didn't notice as much drifting in the second half as he was more central, but pichu wasn't called upon to mark anyone. sevilla didn't have to defend against any attempts on goal at all.

i've not observed the whole match before to see where players are picking up their low ratings, but the timings seem a little odd apart from his 8 after his goal, which wasn't instant (maybe its usually like that, until the opposition kick off).

Ugartetxea was usually the player who caused a leakage of goals in my back line, good stats and potential, but he still never got below a 6 all year.

another factor was that most of the starting line up were rotation players, pichu may have not been match fit... but then neither were Cicinho, Sunny, Aquino or Capel.

you could say that if a player or players can lose a game but still get 7s and 8s, it can also work in reverse despite being 8-0 up over 1.5 legs of a cup game. i wasn't really convinced that he deserved a 3, but from the second half, although he was "fired up" after i told him i was angry, if he didn't score he probly would have got a 4 or 5.

r0x0r
11-09-2008, 20:41
just watched the whole match in split view (pitch and sevilla ratings)...

-10 minutes he had a 7
-18 minutes he had a 6 despite several passes which set up an attack each time
-27 minutes down to a 5 when he was going forward for a corner, he missed the header
-28 minutes he got a 4 after he won a freekick from the goal kick he conceded
-34 minutes 3 after retreating to the half way line following a cleared corner, which resulted in a second corner

the only thing i can conclude from the first half is that he wasn't that much involved as the stats in the screenshot suggest, and that he was probably set to man marking and the striker on their right was moving between my LB and Pichu quite often, but then the timeline above wouldn't fit that pattern...

-56 minutes up to 4 after sevillas 4th goal (straight after kick-off, he wasn't involved in the build up)
-60 minutes, back down to 3 after a team mate conceded a throw in on the opposite wing
-63 minutes up to 4 after winning a corner from a cleared corner
-64 scored from the corner he won, still a 4 until he crossed the halfway line to get back into position, where it doubled to an 8

not much different from the first half performance after that, interceiptions, tackles, defensive headers etc... and he stayed on an 8.

one notable observation i made was that the striker who was drifting between pichu and emmanuelson was switched to the other side. i didn't notice as much drifting in the second half as he was more central, but pichu wasn't called upon to mark anyone. sevilla didn't have to defend against any attempts on goal at all.

i've not observed the whole match before to see where players are picking up their low ratings, but the timings seem a little odd apart from his 8 after his goal, which wasn't instant (maybe its usually like that, until the opposition kick off).

Ugartetxea was usually the player who caused a leakage of goals in my back line, good stats and potential, but he still never got below a 6 all year.

another factor was that most of the starting line up were rotation players, pichu may have not been match fit... but then neither were Cicinho, Sunny, Aquino or Capel.

you could say that if a player or players can lose a game but still get 7s and 8s, it can also work in reverse despite being 8-0 up over 1.5 legs of a cup game. i wasn't really convinced that he deserved a 3, but from the second half, although he was "fired up" after i told him i was angry, if he didn't score he probly would have got a 4 or 5.

So it does seem that the headers were the points that lowered the rating...

Which i'm a little dissapointed about. Didn't you think he looked extremely out of sorts any time the ball was properly in his own half? I got the impression that he was fine dealing with "ball hoofed at his man" but totally unable to deal with "a few opponents in my half. Passing the ball around. He's my man but he's drifting. What do i do?"

I felt his play when the ball was being properly played around inside his half by the oposition (as rare as it was) was quite frankly of an amature level. Am I just too critical?

Klimowicz
11-09-2008, 22:05
i agree r0x0r, especially in the first half when their striker was moving about, but if he'd missed 50% of his tackles, defensive headers, interceiptions etc, i wouldn't be suprised that he got a 3.

i should watch more matches in full highlight mode, i really didn't take into account how average his performance was, but then you could say that players shouldn't automatically get an 8 if they score in a win. it just makes his 3 look like a mistake. or maybe it was...

r0x0r
11-09-2008, 22:08
i agree r0x0r, especially in the first half when their striker was moving about, but if he'd missed 50% of his tackles, defensive headers, interceiptions etc, i wouldn't be suprised that he got a 3.

i should watch more matches in full highlight mode, i really didn't take into account how average his performance was, but then you could say that players shouldn't automatically get an 8 if they score in a win. it just makes his 3 look like a mistake. or maybe it was...

Yeah the fact that the goal shot it up to 8 shows that the chances / on target / goals ratio was the biggest factor behind the rating.

I mean, he'd had almost half of his teams chances and almost all were wide. On that reasoning he is bad, until he scores at which point "well, he got his goal in the end".

It's wrong, but real life pundits would rate him the same way perhaps.