PDA

View Full Version : FM09 - Will it be worth it



sven78
07-09-2008, 11:22
Having not played FM2008 for 3 months now due to my total and utter disgust with the game, I decided to dig it back out following the e-mail announcement that FM09 was on its way.

Loading the game back up my thoughts were that somehow a break from 08 could have refreshed my love for the game...........how wrong I was. All of the old pre-determined AI moves came back in abundance. My thoughts on FM 2007 and FM 2008 will now make me never purchase FM 2009. The whole game has lost its playability. When your playing the game you don't feel in control. You make your tactics, destroy the AI but never get the rewards, it always feels like results are predetermined. My obsverations of this game are shown below, there are so many more

1. Superkeepers
2. Far too many chances wasted
3. AI clinical as always regardless of which team it is
4. Ridculous results in games which you dominate
5. Ridiculous stats in your favour game after game with defeat after defeat
6. Far too many goals disallowed
7. Every goal you score seems to be described as a deflection
8. AI employing 4-2-4 with instant effect so much so that in some games I couldn't even switch my tactics
9. AI players regardless of stats and mental attributes can carry out moves which human players with superior stats can't
10. Human players not rewarded for making tactics which simply annialate the AI
11. AI teams with far better players destroy human teams
12. Results of games always tight - Human player 2-0 up with 10mins to go, AI not had a shot then AI hits one in from 40 yds and the last 5mins are nailbiting despite your striker with 18 finishing missing 21 attempts on target. Stats have AI 1 shot 1 goal and game desribes it as a close encounter
13. End of season striker blues. This happened so many time I have lost count. Strikers ticking along all season getting you goals, suddenly when the title comes close say last 8 games there morale goes from superb to poor, they are concerned before every game and so the AI uses this to make the player never score..............pathetic
14. Media interaction is pathetic. Not once has my decision to question a disallowed goal or a penalty ever been proven right.......abslotuely pathetic feature of the game
15. Player values don't reflect how well your team does. Example - Players worth less than you bought them for. Up shot of this is no point in playing lower leagues as you can't develop youth or unearth a gem and sell them on. I had stancu for FC Copenhagen, scored 25+ goals in 3 seasons in a row. Bought him for £2.6million. Loads of interest in him however when asked for how much I wanted for him no team would even come close to giving the money. As this unsettled him he forgot how to score wanted to leave and therefore I had to sell him for £3.5million. Garbage.

I honestly will not be purchasing FM2009. I bet I am not the only one. The game has slipped into a state where the so called diablo tactics created a sense of paranoia that the whole thing swung the other way where its programmed that the AI of the game is able to switch and evolve, regardless of AI manager ability or AI player stats, and it basically cheats in order that no matter what tactic the human employs the AI is able to counter it after 6 games or so. Shame on you SI. I feal like I have been robbed for my maoney for the last two purchases. You won't be getting my money for FM2009.

TheMoonRat
07-09-2008, 11:31
Considering there is always a demo before each release, you're pretty stupid to say "thats it I'm not buying your games anymore since I didn't like the last one". Try the demo, if you like it, buy it, if you don't, don't. But you can't say that you won't like the next one without playing it... especially since it's the FM game with the most testing ever of the match engine via FML garnering loads of feedback

SmurfDude
07-09-2008, 11:34
I guess you won't be playing any football management game for quite a long time then, seeing as this is by far the most realistic one in terms of match engine and AI. All I can say is it will be your loss

I would of constructively argued against some of your points also, but since you have obviously made up your mind, it would be a waste of time. Farewell :)

FootyKing
07-09-2008, 11:36
You will say that now but by the time the FM 09 Demo comes out you'll change your mind!......I can't wait for FM 09!

But i do understand your questions....I get a disallowed goal every 2 games

wwfan
07-09-2008, 11:40
1. Superkeepers: it's your tactics
2. Far too many chances wasted: it's your tactics
3. AI clinical as always regardless of which team it is: it's your tactics
4. Ridculous results in games which you dominate: it's your tactics
5. Ridiculous stats in your favour game after game with defeat after defeat: it's your tactics
6. Far too many goals disallowed: it's your tactics
7. Every goal you score seems to be described as a deflection: it's your tactics
8. AI employing 4-2-4 with instant effect so much so that in some games I couldn't even switch my tactics: it's your decision making
9. AI players regardless of stats and mental attributes can carry out moves which human players with superior stats can't: it's your tactics
10. Human players not rewarded for making tactics which simply annialate the AI: it's your tactics
11. AI teams with far better players destroy human teams: it's your tactics
12. Results of games always tight - Human player 2-0 up with 10mins to go, AI not had a shot then AI hits one in from 40 yds and the last 5mins are nailbiting despite your striker with 18 finishing missing 21 attempts on target. Stats have AI 1 shot 1 goal and game desribes it as a close encounter: it's your tactics
13. End of season striker blues. This happened so many time I have lost count. Strikers ticking along all season getting you goals, suddenly when the title comes close say last 8 games there morale goes from superb to poor, they are concerned before every game and so the AI uses this to make the player never score..............pathetic: it's your man/media-management
14. Media interaction is pathetic. Not once has my decision to question a disallowed goal or a penalty ever been proven right.......abslotuely pathetic feature of the game: it's how you can't read the 2d. Shouldn't be so much of a problem in 3d.
15. Player values don't reflect how well your team does. Example - Players worth less than you bought them for. Up shot of this is no point in playing lower leagues as you can't develop youth or unearth a gem and sell them on. I had stancu for FC Copenhagen, scored 25+ goals in 3 seasons in a row. Bought him for £2.6million. Loads of interest in him however when asked for how much I wanted for him no team would even come close to giving the money. As this unsettled him he forgot how to score wanted to leave and therefore I had to sell him for £3.5million. Garbage. : Actually, this one I kind of agree with. Can someone remind me again which module has been rewritten from top to bottom?

Ched
07-09-2008, 13:10
I'm sorry, i stopped reading at "superkeepers"...

BJG123
07-09-2008, 13:17
1. Superkeepers: it's your tactics
2. Far too many chances wasted: it's your tactics
3. AI clinical as always regardless of which team it is: it's your tactics
4. Ridculous results in games which you dominate: it's your tactics
5. Ridiculous stats in your favour game after game with defeat after defeat: it's your tactics
6. Far too many goals disallowed: it's your tactics
7. Every goal you score seems to be described as a deflection: it's your tactics
8. AI employing 4-2-4 with instant effect so much so that in some games I couldn't even switch my tactics: it's your decision making
9. AI players regardless of stats and mental attributes can carry out moves which human players with superior stats can't: it's your tactics
10. Human players not rewarded for making tactics which simply annialate the AI: it's your tactics
11. AI teams with far better players destroy human teams: it's your tactics
12. Results of games always tight - Human player 2-0 up with 10mins to go, AI not had a shot then AI hits one in from 40 yds and the last 5mins are nailbiting despite your striker with 18 finishing missing 21 attempts on target. Stats have AI 1 shot 1 goal and game desribes it as a close encounter: it's your tactics
13. End of season striker blues. This happened so many time I have lost count. Strikers ticking along all season getting you goals, suddenly when the title comes close say last 8 games there morale goes from superb to poor, they are concerned before every game and so the AI uses this to make the player never score..............pathetic: it's your man/media-management
14. Media interaction is pathetic. Not once has my decision to question a disallowed goal or a penalty ever been proven right.......abslotuely pathetic feature of the game: it's how you can't read the 2d. Shouldn't be so much of a problem in 3d.
15. Player values don't reflect how well your team does. Example - Players worth less than you bought them for. Up shot of this is no point in playing lower leagues as you can't develop youth or unearth a gem and sell them on. I had stancu for FC Copenhagen, scored 25+ goals in 3 seasons in a row. Bought him for £2.6million. Loads of interest in him however when asked for how much I wanted for him no team would even come close to giving the money. As this unsettled him he forgot how to score wanted to leave and therefore I had to sell him for £3.5million. Garbage. : Actually, this one I kind of agree with. Can someone remind me again which module has been rewritten from top to bottom?


Yawn, so the game is inaccessible to anyone who can't master the art of the stupid, illogical sliders then? There are massive issue with the in-game stats, it's not a problem with your tactics when you dominate in terms of shots, every single game, it's a problem with the game for allowing you to do so, possession appears to simply be a random number, I constantly have games where I have 45% possesion, but have 20 shots to the other team's 1, that's not a problem with my tactics, it's an issue with the game engine.

Ched
07-09-2008, 13:21
Yawn, so the game is inaccessible to anyone who can't master the art of the stupid, illogical sliders then? There are massive issue with the in-game stats, it's not a problem with your tactics when you dominate in terms of shots, every single game, it's a problem with the game for allowing you to do so, possession appears to simply be a random number, I constantly have games where I have 45% possesion, but have 20 shots to the other team's 1, that's not a problem with my tactics, it's an issue with the game engine.

The sliders are perfectly logical, the only real ambiguity lies in the relationship between sliders - however this ambiguity is warranted to create something approaching a realistic simulation.

If you're having 20 shots to 1 and not winning then it is either a problem with your tactic, a problem with your CFs or a problem with team talks - whichever way you look at it the blame lies at your feet, if you aren't willing to accept that then it will never change.

count blake
07-09-2008, 13:25
I'm buying like.

wwfan
07-09-2008, 13:29
Yawn, so the game is inaccessible to anyone who can't master the art of the stupid, illogical sliders then? There are massive issue with the in-game stats, it's not a problem with your tactics when you dominate in terms of shots, every single game, it's a problem with the game for allowing you to do so, possession appears to simply be a random number, I constantly have games where I have 45% possesion, but have 20 shots to the other team's 1, that's not a problem with my tactics, it's an issue with the game engine.


That's not what I said. I also 100% accept that there are engine issues in FM08. However, I have little time for such poorly thought rants. Every complaint he has made has an answer in TT&T. Yet, after 11 months, out it comes!

The main problem with the engine is that narrow multi-strata and/or crazy arrowed tactics keep possession too easily and generate high shot counts. In every pkm I have seen with regards to this type of tactic the shots are speculative, snatched and scrambled. If people try to design tactics via watching the 2d rather than via match stats alone then these things won't happen.

BJG123
07-09-2008, 13:59
The sliders are perfectly logical, the only real ambiguity lies in the relationship between sliders - however this ambiguity is warranted to create something approaching a realistic simulation.

If you're having 20 shots to 1 and not winning then it is either a problem with your tactic, a problem with your CFs or a problem with team talks - whichever way you look at it the blame lies at your feet, if you aren't willing to accept that then it will never change.

Sliders are not logical, they have no bearing on realism, you cannot tell a player to be a notch more attacking than another, or to have 1/20th more creative freedom. As has been demonstrated before, changing instructions so they're illogical for a player (high closing down and attacking for a CB) has no particularly noticable effect.

roe
07-09-2008, 14:07
Having not played FM2008 for 3 months now due to my total and utter disgust with the game, I decided to dig it back out following the e-mail announcement that FM09 was on its way.

Loading the game back up my thoughts were that somehow a break from 08 could have refreshed my love for the game...........how wrong I was. All of the old pre-determined AI moves came back in abundance. My thoughts on FM 2007 and FM 2008 will now make me never purchase FM 2009. The whole game has lost its playability. When your playing the game you don't feel in control. You make your tactics, destroy the AI but never get the rewards, it always feels like results are predetermined. My obsverations of this game are shown below, there are so many more

1. Superkeepers
2. Far too many chances wasted
3. AI clinical as always regardless of which team it is
4. Ridculous results in games which you dominate
5. Ridiculous stats in your favour game after game with defeat after defeat
6. Far too many goals disallowed
7. Every goal you score seems to be described as a deflection
8. AI employing 4-2-4 with instant effect so much so that in some games I couldn't even switch my tactics
9. AI players regardless of stats and mental attributes can carry out moves which human players with superior stats can't
10. Human players not rewarded for making tactics which simply annialate the AI
11. AI teams with far better players destroy human teams
12. Results of games always tight - Human player 2-0 up with 10mins to go, AI not had a shot then AI hits one in from 40 yds and the last 5mins are nailbiting despite your striker with 18 finishing missing 21 attempts on target. Stats have AI 1 shot 1 goal and game desribes it as a close encounter
13. End of season striker blues. This happened so many time I have lost count. Strikers ticking along all season getting you goals, suddenly when the title comes close say last 8 games there morale goes from superb to poor, they are concerned before every game and so the AI uses this to make the player never score..............pathetic
14. Media interaction is pathetic. Not once has my decision to question a disallowed goal or a penalty ever been proven right.......abslotuely pathetic feature of the game
15. Player values don't reflect how well your team does. Example - Players worth less than you bought them for. Up shot of this is no point in playing lower leagues as you can't develop youth or unearth a gem and sell them on. I had stancu for FC Copenhagen, scored 25+ goals in 3 seasons in a row. Bought him for £2.6million. Loads of interest in him however when asked for how much I wanted for him no team would even come close to giving the money. As this unsettled him he forgot how to score wanted to leave and therefore I had to sell him for £3.5million. Garbage.

I honestly will not be purchasing FM2009. I bet I am not the only one. The game has slipped into a state where the so called diablo tactics created a sense of paranoia that the whole thing swung the other way where its programmed that the AI of the game is able to switch and evolve, regardless of AI manager ability or AI player stats, and it basically cheats in order that no matter what tactic the human employs the AI is able to counter it after 6 games or so. Shame on you SI. I feal like I have been robbed for my maoney for the last two purchases. You won't be getting my money for FM2009.

Go back to Mexico Sven..

Most of your complaints are that you're not winning! i've played FM quite a lot and I can honestly say that I've hardly seen anything that you mention here. Apart from the poor media interactions which looks like it'll get immensely improved in 09 anyway..

Ched
07-09-2008, 14:07
Sliders are not logical, they have no bearing on realism, you cannot tell a player to be a notch more attacking than another, or to have 1/20th more creative freedom. As has been demonstrated before, changing instructions so they're illogical for a player (high closing down and attacking for a CB) has no particularly noticable effect.

If you struggle to find the logic in the sliders then i guess that's your problem. I find it in no way illogical that you can tell a player to be slightly more attack minded than another.

NB: If you can't see any noticable effect in an attacking CB then maybe that's why your claiming the sliders to be illogical...

BJG123
07-09-2008, 14:18
If you struggle to find the logic in the sliders then i guess that's your problem. I find it in no way illogical that you can tell a player to be slightly more attack minded than another.

NB: If you can't see any noticable effect in an attacking CB then maybe that's why your claiming the sliders to be illogical...

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=40985

scrawney
07-09-2008, 14:27
all problems with the old transfer system should be gone with the transfer re-write and the rest of the AI problems can be lessened with tactics but hopefully they will be sorted in 09.

djhayes383
07-09-2008, 14:35
If you have so many problems with the game mate it bemuses me as to:

1. why you even bought it and..
2. why you are on the game's forum mindlessly complaining about it instead of at least offering constructive criticism

It appears to me that you just aren't doing well and are blaming the game for your shortcomings. In the words of FM's media interactions; "sounds like sour grapes to me."

StripeySCFC
07-09-2008, 14:47
Just my tuppence worth here but I agree with the topic originator when he talks about slider ambiguity and relationship ambiguity. I also find great difficulty in translating my ideas in principle to arranging the complex network of sliders to reflect that.

I can quite easily sit down and watch a football match and tell you whether a team is defending high, deep or whatever, whether they are playing a high or low tempo, who their playmaker is and who their targetman is - whether they are playing posession football or fast direct football to a targetmans head, feet or knocking the ball into the channels. I have a decent idea on how to counter those tactics also.

When it comes to the game I just struggle to work things out. I struggle between team sliders and individual sliders like mentality, closing down and suchlike. I just struggle in general as to which sliders interact with each other. It ends in a sorry confusing mess of a tactic.

I also struggle, like the topic originator, with the scale. I sit down and analyse logically and have difficulty trying to work out why i should tell a player to have a mentality of 16 out of 20. What benefit does that give me over a mentality of 15 or 10 or even 1 and how does that inidividual setting correlate with defensive line, time wasting or something else?

For example. If i watch a match where a team is pushing right up the pitch and has fast strikers, I would have my team defending deep (defensive line of 5?) and ask them to counter attack (tick the counter attack box) and would prefer to counter attack where my team is the paciest and where there would be a little more room (select down both flanks for example). Okay thats fine, but with FM you now get into the realms of confusion where a miniscule difference in individual menatality of players can blow you team wide open with spaces that the AI would only be too happy to route out at even the basic of levels and carry on exposing and punishing it. Thats before you even get onto width and tempo.

People talk about a real life simulaton. asking players to have a mentality ona scale of 1 through to 20 and suchlike is far far from simulating real life.

I can't visualise Sir Alex asking Ronaldo to take his mentality down by one notch, to 14 out of 20, at half time because he's a few too many millimetres up the pitch for his liking, or it's upsetting the mojo of his blind link between the team width, mentality and tempo.

I think we need to strip it back down to basics like asking a winger to push up, or hold his position, or get down the flanks or cut inside to alllow an overlapping fullback, or double bank with his fullback when defending etc etc

Azmodai
07-09-2008, 14:50
You'll still play it. don't lie.

rinso
07-09-2008, 14:53
1. Superkeepers: it's your tactics
2. Far too many chances wasted: it's your tactics
3. AI clinical as always regardless of which team it is: it's your tactics
4. Ridculous results in games which you dominate: it's your tactics
5. Ridiculous stats in your favour game after game with defeat after defeat: it's your tactics
6. Far too many goals disallowed: it's your tactics
7. Every goal you score seems to be described as a deflection: it's your tactics
8. AI employing 4-2-4 with instant effect so much so that in some games I couldn't even switch my tactics: it's your decision making
9. AI players regardless of stats and mental attributes can carry out moves which human players with superior stats can't: it's your tactics
10. Human players not rewarded for making tactics which simply annialate the AI: it's your tactics
11. AI teams with far better players destroy human teams: it's your tactics
12. Results of games always tight - Human player 2-0 up with 10mins to go, AI not had a shot then AI hits one in from 40 yds and the last 5mins are nailbiting despite your striker with 18 finishing missing 21 attempts on target. Stats have AI 1 shot 1 goal and game desribes it as a close encounter: it's your tactics
13. End of season striker blues. This happened so many time I have lost count. Strikers ticking along all season getting you goals, suddenly when the title comes close say last 8 games there morale goes from superb to poor, they are concerned before every game and so the AI uses this to make the player never score..............pathetic: it's your man/media-management
14. Media interaction is pathetic. Not once has my decision to question a disallowed goal or a penalty ever been proven right.......abslotuely pathetic feature of the game: it's how you can't read the 2d. Shouldn't be so much of a problem in 3d.
15. Player values don't reflect how well your team does. Example - Players worth less than you bought them for. Up shot of this is no point in playing lower leagues as you can't develop youth or unearth a gem and sell them on. I had stancu for FC Copenhagen, scored 25+ goals in 3 seasons in a row. Bought him for £2.6million. Loads of interest in him however when asked for how much I wanted for him no team would even come close to giving the money. As this unsettled him he forgot how to score wanted to leave and therefore I had to sell him for £3.5million. Garbage. : Actually, this one I kind of agree with. Can someone remind me again which module has been rewritten from top to bottom?


:D:thup:

and, as someone else said, play the demo, and THEN decide. tbh its pretty daft saying youre not going to buy it at this stage, when you dont even know what the game is gonna be like....

Ched
07-09-2008, 15:14
http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=40985

Isuck and wwfan answered that thread quite well - if you can't be bothered reading/understanding what they've said then no wonder you can't grasp the sliders.

03bault
07-09-2008, 15:27
i agree that there are too many goals disallowed and the media interaction is poor.
i have experinced pretty much everything else aswell, superkeepers, wasted chances, players with low attributes scoring great goals etc etc. but this only happens every now and again like i believe it happens in real life - there are occasions where poor teams get dominated and nick a 1-0 or hold out for a draw. the same with superkeepers in real life where they pull off save after save and with strikers wasting chances.
i think the problem is that sometimes people experience this too often and think its crap. because if this did happen a lot in your game then its understandable to get fed up-but like i said i have only experienced this a few times and most of the time my tactics work and i do well and do feel rewarded for my tactics.
the match engine should be a lot better for 09 though, as they've decided to make it 3d i expect that they must be very satisfied that the match engine is as good as it can be so why not just play the demo and see if its working better for you.

Matthew Le God
07-09-2008, 15:39
Divide £25 by the number of hours you played FM08 and I think it comes out alot cheaper than most activities you did last year.

Even those that didn't like FM08 I bet still played it for alot of hours. No-one forced you to play yet you still did when you could have spent that time with extra hours down the pub drinking away cash. As Miles says, FM saves you money! :D

Nerion
07-09-2008, 15:51
Divide £25 by the number of hours you played FM08 and I think it comes out alot cheaper than most activities you did last year.

Even those that didn't like FM08 I bet still played it for alot of hours. No-one forced you to play yet you still did when you could have spent that time with extra hours down the pub drinking away cash. As Miles says, FM saves you money! :D

Bit of a weak statement though. For starters, would the people in question still have played so many hours if this was the first CM/FM? If the series had not been established? Many people, including me, (used to) buy this game religiously. Spending lots of hours on a game, hoping to get that feeling back (and failing to succeed at that) is a frustrating experience, one generally doesn't count these hours as entertainment.

At any rate, people should really be more critical before the purchase, instead of after.

This field intentionally left blank
07-09-2008, 15:58
I stopped reading at "it's your tactics".

I'm not sure what I dislike the most; FM08 or its blinkered supporters.

Matthew Le God
07-09-2008, 16:01
Bit of a weak statement though. For starters, would the people in question still have played so many hours if this was the first CM/FM? If the series had not been established? Many people, including me, (used to) buy this game religiously. Spending lots of hours on a game, hoping to get that feeling back (and failing to succeed at that) is a frustrating experience, one generally doesn't count these hours as entertainment.

At any rate, people should really be more critical before the purchase, instead of after.

If people actually found it frustrating they wouldn't play it. I suspect alot of these moaners do play it for hours. No-one is forcing them with a gun against their head to do so. Miles didn't frog march them to the counter at HMV and force them to buy it. They had a free gold demo aswell to see what they thought. Thus they must be getting some enjoyment out of the experience or they wouldn't continue playing. So for £25 it makes it £ per hour of gameplay a very good buy for most.

Nerion
07-09-2008, 16:17
If people actually found it frustrating they wouldn't play it. I suspect alot of these moaners do play it for hours. No-one is forcing them with a gun against their head to do so. Miles didn't frog march them to the counter at HMV and force them to buy it. They had a free gold demo aswell to see what they though.Thus they must be getting some enjoyment out of the experience or they wouldn't continue playing. So for £25 it makes it £ per hour of gameplay a very good buy for most.

I bought FM2006 and FM2007 even though I was not all too impressed with their respective demo's. I quit playing both these games shortly after their patches did not bring what I expected from them.

I never moaned here or anywhere, as I knew it was my own dumb fault, but as an avid gamer on both console and pc, both in competition and casual, I believe I know a thing or two about hours of entertainment vs money spent. I've got games that I finished in 8 hours and never touched again, and there's a game that I have spent thousands of hours on, spread over 4 and half years now, which I'm still playing competitively. This last game I merely continued playing because I made many friends online that all still played that game. I don't mind playing the game, but it's getting together before and after the matches, and talking over voice comms that makes me want more. On the other hand there are single player games that can be finished in a day (or perhaps a weekend), that have left such a big mark on me, in one way or another, that I wouldn't want to trade anything for the experience of having played that for the first time.

These are two extreme cases, and clearly there are many, many more situations in the middle. You simply cannot count an experience in hours. Both expectation and immersion play too big a part in an experience to degrade it into a simple math formula.

Ched
07-09-2008, 16:32
I stopped reading at "it's your tactics".

I'm not sure what I dislike the most; FM08 or its blinkered supporters.

Bless.......

scrawney
07-09-2008, 16:35
Bless.......

Haha! Brilliant :). I love it how whenever a new FM is announced the FIFA Manager and CM fans drift over here to defend their chosen management sim... can't we all just get along :D

StripeySCFC
07-09-2008, 16:52
Why can't people have opinions either way without being labelled blinkered supporters or moaners?

It really is'nt hard to take a step back and be subjective. Why can't people accept that some people have a little trouble decyphering the sliders and their relativity to real life football without the need for childish remarks about reading posts that contain a fellow gamers opinions (not fact I must stress) and suchlike? Likewise, can't some accept that some of us have no trouble with the game and are happy with it?

Personally speaking, take away the ambiguity over the sliders and the match engine in general and I think the game is very, very good - far superior to CM and Fifa Manager. Its a step ahead overall and aslong as progress is kept and evolution of the game is constant it always will be.

SIGames openly accept constructive criticism. A lot of people are constructively criticising the way that the sliders are used, the relationship between the sliders and how they work and some are suggesting ways around it yet they are being flamed and are simply told thats its the tactics fault and that they should read the forums properly.

I think we need a little bit of understanding on both sides here.

Ched
07-09-2008, 17:31
Why can't people have opinions either way without being labelled blinkered supporters or moaners?

It really is'nt hard to take a step back and be subjective. Why can't people accept that some people have a little trouble decyphering the sliders and their relativity to real life football without the need for childish remarks about reading posts that contain a fellow gamers opinions (not fact I must stress) and suchlike? Likewise, can't some accept that some of us have no trouble with the game and are happy with it?

Personally speaking, take away the ambiguity over the sliders and the match engine in general and I think the game is very, very good - far superior to CM and Fifa Manager. Its a step ahead overall and aslong as progress is kept and evolution of the game is constant it always will be.

SIGames openly accept constructive criticism. A lot of people are constructively criticising the way that the sliders are used, the relationship between the sliders and how they work and some are suggesting ways around it yet they are being flamed and are simply told thats its the tactics fault and that they should read the forums properly.

I think we need a little bit of understanding on both sides here.

wwfan wrote a post (or was it part of a post?) describing why the ambiguity was not only a good thing, but vital to FM - if he happens upon this god awful thread again i'm sure he can describe the content of his post, as my memory is currently failing me. :confused:

Being subjective is obviously what we should all aim for, however when people can't figure out the differences between problems caused by them and problems caused by the game then no debate will ever be productive.

Hopefully the new "assman" feature will help those people unwilling/unable to see the faults within their tactic, team, team talks etc etc etc and cut out the majority of pointless moans like this.

Serpico
07-09-2008, 17:43
If there's nothing wrong with the tactic engine, then how come I can't come up with one that's capable of getting me even a mid-table position with a decent team? Am I really that stupid? Don't my 30 years of watching football count for something?

The tactics engine should be written so that it's as close to what a manager might say in real life. Get rid of the sliders and it'd be a start. And give the players some sort of football common sense. If the opposition suddenly push 4 or 5 upfront the side themselves should do something about it, rather than stand there looking stupid.

djhayes383
07-09-2008, 17:51
I stopped reading at "it's your tactics".

I'm not sure what I dislike the most; FM08 or its blinkered supporters.

If you don't like the game or its fans why are you even on these forums?

Millie
07-09-2008, 17:55
I find it funny that one of the most influential guys in the scene for criticising the engine (one of the foremost proponents of getting rid of arrows and increasing realism in the engine) is constantly called a fanboy and a "blind supporter" of the game.

The biggest problem I've seen has been the inability of some to really see what's going on on the pitch. They interpret the game completely differently to wwfan, myself & al.

What some see as "13 shots on target" others see as 13 shots from range. What others see as a 5' 6" player outjumping a 6' 7" centre back, others see as a nippy striker getting in front of the defender to nod it in. What some see as domination, others see as inefficient use of possession.

Some of the best posters in this place are reformed "moaners". The ones that listen and apply what they learn tend to be the biggest supporters of the game, over time.

As with everything, if you blame yourself when things go wrong, you try to learn and do something new. If you blame the computer, there's no point in playing, since you'll never get any better.

Millie
07-09-2008, 17:56
If there's nothing wrong with the tactic engine...

Yeah, that's exactly what we're saying. Jesus, is it any wonder these arguments go nowhere... ffs...

StripeySCFC
07-09-2008, 17:59
ched,

There are a fair few people on the forums who are all to willing to blame themselves, their teamtalks and their tactics for their own failings with the game. I include myself in that bracket. Those that don't are'nt worth recognising or replying to. Thats not the argument I have.

The argument I have is that i've spent hours playing the game, tweaking this that and god knows what...referred back to "guru's" like wwfan, isuckatfm, buxton (in the old days), Ackter, Cleon, rashidi. You name them, i've read their theories....and took it all on board. I still struggle because when push comes to shove, all of the above gurus have their own opinions on what the match engine is, how the sliders work and so on. Some of their theories contradict each others and some of their theories tie in with what each other are saying. Its confusing to say the least. Some of the theories are fantastic, but you are talking about people who sit for hours and hours and hours tweaking certain sliders by one notch at a time. For me that is'nt realistic and is'nt what the game should be about and it is'nt what football is about.

SI themselves say they want the game to be as realistic as possible. We all do...

Using sliders with a scale of 1 to 20 is not realism IMHO....as i've pointed out in a previous post above. Managers IRL give simple instructions as to what they want a player to do. Claude Makelele would NOT have gone out on the pitch with Mourinho's instructions of 10/20 for mentality, closing down 17/20, creative freedom 4/20 etc. He would have been told to keep in touch with his back four, don't venture forward too much, close anyone down that comes into his Zone and keep things simple in posession.

Its difficult to translate what you want a player to do into "sliders" - since there are varying degrees of mentality, varying degrees of Creative Freedom aswell as a hidden link between all of them. For me, you either want a player to sit in his position, let him take his choice given the situation, or attack at will. You either want him to try tricks or you don't etc. You either want him to press the ball or you don't. You get the picture.

I think there is a better way and a simpler way to doing this. Being simpler to understand and simpler to produce a tactic that you want does'nt have to mean the game is "easier" - which is a lot of peoples' fears.

Ched
07-09-2008, 18:53
Stripey

Saying "x wouldn't be given the instruction have 10/20 mentality" is utterly irrelevant.

The purpose of the 0-20 sliders is not to give each player 0-20 possibilities of mentality - it's so you can have a variation in overall fmt - let me explain;

Would you argue that it would be realistic to have 5 levels of mentality? Essentially Ultra def, def, normal, attacking and ultra attacking?

I'll assume your answer is yes - if this was reflected in FM then what you would get is one useful setting for each position. E.g. GK would be ultra def, CB would be def etc etc etc

What 0-20 allows is 4 times as many settings per position. Hence, in my attacking fmt my cb may have a mentality of 10, whilct in a def fmt my CB may have a mentality of 7 - what this allows is to keep a tight fmt (i.e. no more than 2 mentality steps btw psotions) and allow some variation in overall team mentality.

The only other way i can see this being incorporated is if you had individual mentality and then had team mentality act as a modifier.

*this applys to all sliders - it just allows positional variation and team variation - and for this reason a 0-20 (or -10 to +10 if you prefer) scale is essential.

I can fully appreciate where you're coming from, but the game as it stands is much more realistic because of the sliders.

As to your point:

"...you are talking about people who sit for hours and hours and hours tweaking certain sliders by one notch at a time. For me that is'nt realistic and is'nt what the game should be about and it is'nt what football is about."

Sitting for hours and hours considering tactics is, imo, exactly what a real life manager should and probably does do, and hence is entirely realistic. Someone said some time ago that if the game becomes perfectly realistic (which is what SI aim to do) then it will cease to be fun, let's be honest - how many real life managers look like they enjoy themselves all the time? People ask for realistic, but then complain when they have to change their tactic 6 times a game - unfortunately, whilst it may not be immediately apparent, if you watch just an individual player in a RL match and consider what instructions he's given, it is entirely realistic to expect to have to tweak. A lot, lol.

Now, hopefully the assman feature in FM09 will act as a middle man, between people such as myself, who are happy with how the game works and grasp (or think we do!) what's going on, and others who would prefer something a little simpler. Fingers crossed :D

Serpico

*shrug*

Sorry, i just don't know. My formation was built based on how a wanted my team to play and how they could play - after watching 3-4 matches in full length i found some problems, but now it works perfectly, i'm not sure why you haven't had a similar degree of success.

I've said all i need to about sliders, but i do fully agree that more common sense is essential - too many times i've seen players running back into position regardless of whether it would make sense to do so.

SCIAG
07-09-2008, 19:01
Sitting for hours and hours considering tactics is, imo, exactly what a real life manager should and probably does do, and hence is entirely realistic. Someone said some time ago that if the game becomes perfectly realistic (which is what SI aim to do) then it will cease to be fun, let's be honest - how many real life managers look like they enjoy themselves all the time? People ask for realistic, but then complain when they have to change their tactic 6 times a game - unfortunately, whilst it may not be immediately apparent, if you watch just an individual player in a RL match and consider what instructions he's given, it is entirely realistic to expect to have to tweak. A lot, lol.


Colin Warnock? You could add Jose too...

Next time I watch a match, I'll see how many times the coaches leave the dugouts. That should tell us a realistic number of times to tweak our tactics ;)

Ched
07-09-2008, 19:06
Next time I watch a match, I'll see how many times the coaches leave the dugouts. That should tell us a realistic number of times to tweak our tactics ;)

Exactly.

If people considered that every time a manager started yelling at players waving his hands he actually meant "reduce mentality by 2, reduce fwd runs" ect then people would realise that there is a real life precedent for this kind of micro management - whether it's fun or not is another matter entirely.

NB: is Colin Warnock, Neil Warnock in disguise? Or are there more warnocks that i'm not aware of :D

StripeySCFC
07-09-2008, 19:19
ched,

All i'll say to that is thanks for the considered response. I don't agree with it and part of your post proves my point about complexity, but we would be going round in circles repeating ourselves for ever and a day if we decided to carry on the discussion per se.

If you want to get a further handle on my side of the argument, then go to you local professional teams training ground. Given your locality in your profile, i'll assume it is Tranmere Rovers. Take a look at what they do towards the end of the week when they are working on team shape and tactics for the upcoming weekends game.

I go to my local team whenever i'm off work (Stoke City) and listen to what the manager is saying when he's coaching his team. Terms such as "Don't empty the midfield", "Wingers push the full back inside to reduce the passing options"(when defending), "Centre halves stop splitting and get closer together", "Big targetman drop deep to give the other forward space to run and work the angles" etc etc

Go along for yourself, look at what they're doing, look at the effect of the instructions and try and relate it to sliders when you get back home.

"Good Luck"

:D

SmurfDude
07-09-2008, 19:24
I thought by now we'd all accepted the engine in 08 had it's fair share of problems and was widely considered a disappointment, at least before the last patch, which is still far from perfect

Let's just look to the future and cross our fingers that 09 will solve most, if not all of the problems mentioned in this thread. If this guy wants to skip it, then that's his problem. Although I'd bet my house on it that he does actually give it a try ;)

Socdk
07-09-2008, 19:27
Sven din lille kost

Ched
07-09-2008, 19:33
Given your locality in your profile, i'll assume it is Tranmere Rovers. Take a look at what they do towards the end of the week when they are working on team shape and tactics for the upcoming weekends game.


As far as i'm aware "shape" and "tactics" are beyond tranmere :D

There's an intersting debate here over what should be covered in training rather than in-match tactics - i'll wait until i've played 09 and produce something then, maybe i'll be pleasantly surprised after i've played it :D

Ched
07-09-2008, 19:33
Sven din lille kost

What on earth?

Millie
07-09-2008, 19:37
The way I look at sliders is this, and I would like to use the example already posted.

Claude Makelele
He would have been told to keep in touch with his back four...
don't venture forward too much...
close anyone down that comes into his Zone...
keep things simple in posession.

So, you want... low mentality. As Ched says, if we have 5 settings for each, I'm going to go with 8 for mentality. Which covers venturing forward. Close down actively? I'll go for 16 (using the same system). And keep things simple? I'll go for 8 again.

So...

Claude Makelele
Mentality - 8 (2/5)
Closing Down - 16 (4/5)
Creative Freedom - 8 (2/5)

Hmm. Doesn't seem to be working, Claude. You're still pushed up too far. But if I go down to 1/5, you'll be too deep. I only want you slightly more reserved going forward. I'll knock it down to 6. Also, you're not closing down enough, but if I put you on full you wander too much. I'll put it up to 18. And, you don't seem to be looking for good passes. I don't want you to wander though, so I'll knock the creative freedom up to 8.

That's what the sliders do - they give you subtelty from basic instructions.

Interestingly, the "skills" that you learn on FML tend to only give you a certain amount of slider positions. At the most basic level, you only get around half a dozen notches. So it's more than possible to have a very basic setup. The sliders allow you to be a rough or as precise as you want. Providing your instructions remain logical, you should be able to whip up a decent tactic.

I set up my tactics EXACTLY like this. Though my settings are usually held at 0, 5, 10, 15, 20. Then a move up or down a couple of clicks to hone them. Exactly as a real manager would. "You're slightly off, do a bit more of this!"

What we should have, in my opinion, is more "words" accomponying the sliders. So, for mentality, it should start, Defensive then when you move beyond 5 it could go to Cautious then beyond 10 to neutral, beyond 15 to attacking, or something of that ilk. That would make it clearer about the subtleties, and make it easier to just say to someone "oh, put it on the first notch of attacking".

Without sliders, I don't see how this subtlety can be put across. Turn it all into "verbal" instructions and check boxes and you wouldn't be able to read the screen for all the confusing instructions plastered all over the place. :D

knap
07-09-2008, 19:41
Ched/Millie

Can you download your tactics as I would like to test them.

Thanks

Blackmama
07-09-2008, 19:58
Sven din lille kost

That's class - !

Dazza
07-09-2008, 20:26
You will say that now but by the time the FM 09 Demo comes out you'll change your mind!......I can't wait for FM 09!

But i do understand your questions....I get a disallowed goal every 2 games

Its true some things seem unreal but I often ask are they unreal or just giving you a scenario to play out for that season, I mean given that sometimes football is about luck as well as how well a team plays etc. and teams in real do go through bad runs through a bit of bad luck dodgy ref decision, disallowed goal etc. sometimes when your lucks out everything goes against you and goes against you almost every game and if this happens in the game people are quick to say it must be a bug etc.

I Think sometimes every FM player wants to win or we wouldnt be football fans but in real life only a few can suceed and as in real life and the game it takes time, and luck to get to where you want to be.

Hold the faith brothers oh and now sisters(FM 09) SI constantly deliver in my book and when things arn't right they recognise it and address things ASAP and if they can patch the game before the next release which is more than any other games developer ever does these days.

ewok01
07-09-2008, 21:05
Having not played FM2008 for 3 months now due to my total and utter disgust with the game, I decided to dig it back out following the e-mail announcement that FM09 was on its way.

Loading the game back up my thoughts were that somehow a break from 08 could have refreshed my love for the game...........how wrong I was. All of the old pre-determined AI moves came back in abundance. My thoughts on FM 2007 and FM 2008 will now make me never purchase FM 2009. The whole game has lost its playability. When your playing the game you don't feel in control. You make your tactics, destroy the AI but never get the rewards, it always feels like results are predetermined. My obsverations of this game are shown below, there are so many more

1. Superkeepers
2. Far too many chances wasted
3. AI clinical as always regardless of which team it is
4. Ridculous results in games which you dominate
5. Ridiculous stats in your favour game after game with defeat after defeat
6. Far too many goals disallowed
7. Every goal you score seems to be described as a deflection
8. AI employing 4-2-4 with instant effect so much so that in some games I couldn't even switch my tactics
9. AI players regardless of stats and mental attributes can carry out moves which human players with superior stats can't
10. Human players not rewarded for making tactics which simply annialate the AI
11. AI teams with far better players destroy human teams
12. Results of games always tight - Human player 2-0 up with 10mins to go, AI not had a shot then AI hits one in from 40 yds and the last 5mins are nailbiting despite your striker with 18 finishing missing 21 attempts on target. Stats have AI 1 shot 1 goal and game desribes it as a close encounter
13. End of season striker blues. This happened so many time I have lost count. Strikers ticking along all season getting you goals, suddenly when the title comes close say last 8 games there morale goes from superb to poor, they are concerned before every game and so the AI uses this to make the player never score..............pathetic
14. Media interaction is pathetic. Not once has my decision to question a disallowed goal or a penalty ever been proven right.......abslotuely pathetic feature of the game
15. Player values don't reflect how well your team does. Example - Players worth less than you bought them for. Up shot of this is no point in playing lower leagues as you can't develop youth or unearth a gem and sell them on. I had stancu for FC Copenhagen, scored 25+ goals in 3 seasons in a row. Bought him for £2.6million. Loads of interest in him however when asked for how much I wanted for him no team would even come close to giving the money. As this unsettled him he forgot how to score wanted to leave and therefore I had to sell him for £3.5million. Garbage.

I honestly will not be purchasing FM2009. I bet I am not the only one. The game has slipped into a state where the so called diablo tactics created a sense of paranoia that the whole thing swung the other way where its programmed that the AI of the game is able to switch and evolve, regardless of AI manager ability or AI player stats, and it basically cheats in order that no matter what tactic the human employs the AI is able to counter it after 6 games or so. Shame on you SI. I feal like I have been robbed for my maoney for the last two purchases. You won't be getting my money for FM2009.

Mate, I have been buying these games for like ever (believe you me) and I too have expressed my views all to often about the positives and negatives about all of them expect 01/02 but one thing one cannot argue with is SI do provide a demo which is an excellent way to get a look at game "prior to purchase". Furthermore, SI do support their games with patches and support via the forum. On one negative note, I too get annoyed when people simply reply with "it's your tactics" that argument has been put forward so many times and sometimes I feel is just an easy option out, rather than exploring other options, all games have problems and I suspect FM is no different.

My view (if you want to take it) is when the demo comes out, play it and make up your mind then.

Cheers all

Smac
07-09-2008, 21:31
When your playing the game you don't feel in control. You make your tactics, destroy the AI but never get the rewards, it always feels like results are predetermined.

Whatever else, I think this is valuable feedback.

Some feel this way. Some feel in control. Some don't feel in control but are happy. Some feel in control but are likely mistaken.

I do think the tactics forum, taken as a whole, is a testament to how many people would enjoy more of a sense of control and/or understanding. You look at the kind of threads posted and the kind of questions asked, and I find it difficult to conclude: "Everything is fine. This is the way we want it."

I'll continue to advocate for a better tactics system until it seems that the kind of discussions going on reflect satisfaction and gradual mastery. Until then I think posts like this are really good. Maybe once we get past the subjective experience of "I don't feel in control" and into the evidence and reasons given we can have some debate, but to discard the expressed desire for more control or understanding by focusing on faulty conclusions or misunderstandings will never debase the fact that the guy feels the way he does, and isn't alone.

brandon
07-09-2008, 21:39
Having not played FM2008 for 3 months now due to my total and utter disgust with the game, I decided to dig it back out following the e-mail announcement that FM09 was on its way.

Loading the game back up my thoughts were that somehow a break from 08 could have refreshed my love for the game...........how wrong I was. All of the old pre-determined AI moves came back in abundance. My thoughts on FM 2007 and FM 2008 will now make me never purchase FM 2009. The whole game has lost its playability. When your playing the game you don't feel in control. You make your tactics, destroy the AI but never get the rewards, it always feels like results are predetermined. My obsverations of this game are shown below, there are so many more

1. Superkeepers
2. Far too many chances wasted
3. AI clinical as always regardless of which team it is
4. Ridculous results in games which you dominate
5. Ridiculous stats in your favour game after game with defeat after defeat
6. Far too many goals disallowed
7. Every goal you score seems to be described as a deflection
8. AI employing 4-2-4 with instant effect so much so that in some games I couldn't even switch my tactics
9. AI players regardless of stats and mental attributes can carry out moves which human players with superior stats can't
10. Human players not rewarded for making tactics which simply annialate the AI
11. AI teams with far better players destroy human teams
12. Results of games always tight - Human player 2-0 up with 10mins to go, AI not had a shot then AI hits one in from 40 yds and the last 5mins are nailbiting despite your striker with 18 finishing missing 21 attempts on target. Stats have AI 1 shot 1 goal and game desribes it as a close encounter
13. End of season striker blues. This happened so many time I have lost count. Strikers ticking along all season getting you goals, suddenly when the title comes close say last 8 games there morale goes from superb to poor, they are concerned before every game and so the AI uses this to make the player never score..............pathetic
14. Media interaction is pathetic. Not once has my decision to question a disallowed goal or a penalty ever been proven right.......abslotuely pathetic feature of the game
15. Player values don't reflect how well your team does. Example - Players worth less than you bought them for. Up shot of this is no point in playing lower leagues as you can't develop youth or unearth a gem and sell them on. I had stancu for FC Copenhagen, scored 25+ goals in 3 seasons in a row. Bought him for £2.6million. Loads of interest in him however when asked for how much I wanted for him no team would even come close to giving the money. As this unsettled him he forgot how to score wanted to leave and therefore I had to sell him for £3.5million. Garbage.

I honestly will not be purchasing FM2009. I bet I am not the only one. The game has slipped into a state where the so called diablo tactics created a sense of paranoia that the whole thing swung the other way where its programmed that the AI of the game is able to switch and evolve, regardless of AI manager ability or AI player stats, and it basically cheats in order that no matter what tactic the human employs the AI is able to counter it after 6 games or so. Shame on you SI. I feal like I have been robbed for my maoney for the last two purchases. You won't be getting my money for FM2009.

i totally agree with everything youve said. the problem i have is, im addicted to this flawed game. i have to play it because there is nothing else better. what else is there?

wwfan
07-09-2008, 23:37
This thread sums up the problem with the whole tactics/engine debate quite nicely. My answer to the OP was made with my tongue firmly wedged in my cheek. The correct answer to his complaints is 'it's your tactics'. I wrote it fully aware that it would provoke some reaction from certain people and wasn't too surprised with a couple of the names that popped out of the wooding shed. The point I was trying to make was that a considered answer, apart from being far too long and just repeating things I have said ad infinitum in the tactics forum, would be totally ignored by someone who emotes in the manner of the OP. A 'help me' plea in the tatics forum from a user having similar issues ended with my being able to largely solve his problems in three posts, but he was accepting that the faults lay partially within himself rather than fully with the game. Whilst it is my pleasure to help someone like that, I have no time or sympathy for ill-informed rants of the nature of the OP. A blinkered mindset gets a blinkered response.

More constructive posts such as those made by Smac and Stripey invariably get my attention and I try to debate issues raised in that manner. The ambiguity issue is one we have debated at a pretty decent level. I believe that Smac and I will never quite meet in the midddle as I think I have a higher degree of tolerance for ambiguity than he does and believe that real life management is a highly ambiguous task, which should be replicated in FM. That doesn't stop me from appreciating what he is saying and from accepting that there are problems with the ambiguity of how the ME interpets certain tactical instruction. Personally, I believe the overriding cause of the majority of user problems with the ME is arrows (although the over-performace of narrow, multi-strata tactics is also to blame). I also think that the FML engine largely overcomes these issues, which should give you all great hope for the FM09 one. The reason it has done so is because many of the blinkered fanboys have provided enough constructive criticism of how it played to get fundamental ME issues altered.

For those that are questioning the ME and tactical sliders' abilites to mirror real life instructions, what I would like to ask is how many of the instructions you try to use are replicated in real life? If there is one use of an arrow that a real life manager wouldn't use (i.e. the MC to FC of Diablo, or, in fact, the AMC to FC common in many current tactics) then the argument that the ME fails to replicate your 'real life interpretation' of tactics falls on its face. It splinters the engine and warps its statistics. The more you deviate from real life instructions, the worse the game will perform. If, however, you only use patterns that the AI employs, you then have a possibility of entering a realistically simulated world in which neither side has an innate and unfair advantage over the other. From there on in, in general, it is a matter of translation:

Don't empty the midfield: ensure one MC has FWRs rarely, lowish mentality, highish CD so he sits deep when in possession but closes down space as soon as the opposition tries a quick counter

Wingers push the full back inside to reduce the passing options (when defending): OI the FB with close down and show onto foot

Centre halves stop splitting and get closer together: narrow width, ensure they are man-tight marking (not getting pulled wider by a winger entering the edges of their zone),

Big targetman drop deep to give the other forward space to run and work the angles: lower mentality than his strike partner and no FWRs


There are also issues with people simply offering opinion as fact, as with this statement:


As has been demonstrated before, changing instructions so they're illogical for a player (high closing down and attacking for a CB) has no particularly noticable effect.This might be one person's opinion of how tactics should look, but it has counter-arguments. In my attacking tactics I always use a highish mentality and high CD for my DCs. Why? Because I play with a very high d-line and it seems illogical to position my DCs on the half-way line and then tell them to close down only when the ball gets to their own area. As I perceive it, this will mean they are back tracking at pace against a counter attack, which will leave acres of space for attackers to exploit. So, I try to have them quickly win the ball high up the pitch and then restart the attack = high d-line, high CD, normal-heavy tackling, attacking mentality, TTBs mixed. I am always happy to argue my interpretation, but to have someone assume it is illogical without reasons and then offer it as proof ... well, is there any wonder said person struggles?

Unlike Smac, I feel totally in control of pretty much every match. I know why I have won, drawn or lost. There are also enough other people who contribute to and use variations of my playing philosophy that feel the same thing to suggest that it is not illusory. Every now and then I have an inexplicable half, but they are few and far between. I also don't win every match and every competition, although I have a pretty good record. I also only play 4-4-2. It is plenty possible. There are arguments that it might be too hard, but that is a different story. However, for those that simply fail to engage on the 'ME is flawed but it is possible to replicate real world instructions in it with a bit of thought' level and take binary positions, this argument never even enters the equation.

Smac
08-09-2008, 00:55
Nice post wwfan.

The only thing I'd take issue with is
The correct answer to his complaints is 'it's your tactics'. in that there is a different way to look at it as:

Person has subjective experience of impotence or confusion with the tactics system or ME.
Person tries to explain this experience with evidence.
Some of the theorizing or evidence is weak. Perhaps most. But the experience is still valid.

For me a 'correct' response is to examine expectations and acknowledge the confusion. Browbeating someone for the rationalizations they use may be satisfying but is inherently unproductive. Whereas soliciting their participation in understanding their experience and perhaps working to improve it could produce results, as in the recent tactical 'help' thread from last week. Usually you do try to help, as do others. But there is sometimes an attitude of invalidation towards 'lesser players' frustration that comes off as a bit hostile, if not defensive.

Though I suppose to accuse you of trolling would be a little hypocritical of me! And I must admit, his conclusions are pretty 'wrong', objectively. Although again, subjectively they seem to make sense to me: If I'm continually frustrated with a voluntary thing like a game, quitting is a pretty decent response!

One other thing:
Unlike Smac, I feel totally in control of pretty much every match. I know why I have won, drawn or lost.

In the larger picture, it doesn't really matter whether you or I feel in control though, right? We're just two guys. What about everyone else? I mean, I'm sure the OP is glad there are some people who are pretty confident on the ball. It means there is hope. But its interesting that the bulk of posts in any given "I'm confused and frustrated" thread fail to express that this is quite a common experience for FM players. I wonder why that is?

As you've said numerous times over the years: If someone doesn't want to take the time to follow the advice given, or to really study the matches, but instead decides he's put enough into the game already, there's nothing to be done. His choice, but might be symptomatic of a frustrating and confusing interface just as much as a evidence for a shallow and impatient player. I do find it interesting that there are so many replies to someone who's already decided he's had enough. Or maybe the fact that he's posted means he hasn't had enough?

knap
08-09-2008, 01:11
How many tmes do you have to ask winger to close down, illogical to also use OIs as well, and OIs should be a main option not set up every game.

When a centre half leaves his forward to tackle a winger already tight marked by FB, allowing an AI goal to follow you begin to wonder. Combined with narrow is good for defence and wide attack then the AI can switch tactics every few seconds and create this perfect tactic.

Lower mentality is positional not a drop deep instruction, not explained in handbook. If a TM drops deep do you not want him to run fwd, again illogical. As well as tight man mark to hang on defender shoulder, compared to trying to lose marker and try to beat offside trap.

Years of studying the match engine is not available to all let alone having to deal with unrealistic constant changing of tactics by AI.

There is no user instruction that a certain farrow will exploit ME and distort results.

Most that post "its you tactics" do not even suggest why or ask what tactics are being used.

Even the corner cheat is basic flawed testing.

I have similar issues to OP but prepared to learn rather than call foul.

wwfan
08-09-2008, 01:53
Person has subjective experience of impotence or confusion with the tactics system or ME.
Person tries to explain this experience with evidence.
Some of the theorizing or evidence is weak. Perhaps most. But the experience is still valid.I'm not arguing that the experience isn't valid. I'm arguing that the conclusions are (AI works out your tactic thus invalidating what should be a good tactic, game is a waste of money, SI should be ashamed). There is a wealth of evidence illustrating how all of his experiences can be explained and countered.

I still firmly believe that it is user exploitation of the tactical system through 'creative' deployment of arrows and/or working out you get an unrealistic statistical advantage by using a multi-strata/narrow/attacking formation is what causes most of the angst. The ME cannot handle all the weird arrows in statistical terms but can easily defend most of the chances it creates, as they aren't very good. Same with the narrow formations. They can keep possession and can generate a huge number of shots, but 95%+ are from long range or hit in a crowded box. If you rely on match stats to read the game, you will get hugely frustrated. However, if you learn to read the 2d, then you can see how and why you need to change things. Dealing with both the above should reduce the ambiguity of tactical instruction. The arrows are gone so that is solved. Narrow formations also get marked much realistically by wide ones, so the possession/shot count they generated is much better, although in the FML engine, not 100% solved. However, the FML ME is a fantastic starting point for FM09 and I'm hoping for even greater improvements in this direction.

With regards to knap, one man's logic is another man's fallacy. I don't always use OI to target the opposing FBs, but when they are causing problems by overlapping and getting forward, I want the winger to pay specific attention to them and keep my FB on the winger. So I change instructions to deal with the situation. If I am dominating, I don't need to.

Lower mentality combined with no FWRs makes an FC drop deeper. Adding free role and high CF to the right FCd can also turn him into a hugely effective weapon. It may not be explained like this in the manual but it works. It is also logical in my opinion.

There is no user instruction about how certain farrows disrupt the engine because we hadn't debated it until FML testing. However, not only are they illogical commands (arrows and FWRs should simply be the same thing) but they are used in unrealistic ways. How many managers have ever told their MC to always be a third forward when in possession and always be a midfielder when defending. None. Yet the ME allows it and many people design tactics doing it. The same people are then the first to complain that the ME can't replicate proper football. Anyway, it will be a moot point soon enough as post-FML there will be no arrows in tactics.

knap
08-09-2008, 04:49
multi-strata/ Basic AI 442

narrow/attacking formation - as an example Kimz is neither

AI can change tactics too often to generate an overlapping FB or Defensive FB- this leads to overuse of OIs. rather than specific to a highlighted danger man, but I cannot understand why you asking a player to close down twice, tight mark maybe, but this is available without using OIs.

As I tend to use a lone striker with mxd fw runs and attacking mentality my observation is that he drops deep anyway.
Although I like the play with free roles it tends to in result terms make the tactic weaker.
There is also confusion with regard to free role player attribute as to how effective a free role is without this attribute.

A long farrow is OK for a MR/L but not MC. Many MCs get fwd into box ie Lampard. Also the AI are allowed an AMC barrowed to DM.

As I understand Diablo (before my time with FM) this farrow caused a problem so should have been considered for FM08, probably was and the problem coded out of game rather than remove farrows, however long carrows were probably new.

As a heavily farrowed tactic tends to outscore and produce many chances it appears that a lot of chances are missed. If the same type of chances one game produce many goals then logical this should be same in other games bar a few, yet too often the strikers have an offday or offsides/fouls. You cannot read the AI 424 just anticipate (OP did not mention reading 2d), but the AI are masters of changing tactics and formation and this should not be a test of users reflexes to hit pause.

Having been a die hard 442 tactic only but kept having berbs not scoring for 40hrs first resorted to a carrow tactic (Cleons) then Kimz. So probably like many users pushed into angst and odd happenings on pitch just to get some decent results.

However we still do not know what type of tactic the OP is using to cause this angst, probably not Kimz as he would be winning.

kiwityke
08-09-2008, 05:44
I find it funny that one of the most influential guys in the scene for criticising the engine (one of the foremost proponents of getting rid of arrows and increasing realism in the engine) is constantly called a fanboy and a "blind supporter" of the game.

The biggest problem I've seen has been the inability of some to really see what's going on on the pitch. They interpret the game completely differently to wwfan, myself & al.

What some see as "13 shots on target" others see as 13 shots from range. What others see as a 5' 6" player outjumping a 6' 7" centre back, others see as a nippy striker getting in front of the defender to nod it in. What some see as domination, others see as inefficient use of possession.

Some of the best posters in this place are reformed "moaners". The ones that listen and apply what they learn tend to be the biggest supporters of the game, over time.

As with everything, if you blame yourself when things go wrong, you try to learn and do something new. If you blame the computer, there's no point in playing, since you'll never get any better.

I must admit to being one of these people. I listened to what Ched, Amaroq and others said. Took that advice and looked at the match engine in a new way, guess what I now win most games I should 4 and 5 to nil (I am talking about the dominate match have 20 shots to one scenarios here).

This was after I had spent literally months being frustrated to hell with the match engine, I even gave up playing the game for a while.

What I do find frustrating is sometimes the cause of your tactical problem is so obscure its very difficult to discover what the problem is, hopefully the new assistant manager feature will solve this.

StripeySCFC
08-09-2008, 06:40
Thanks for taking the time to reply millie/wwfan.

When you put it down on the screen like that it all seems a lot more clearer and a lot more sensical. The difficulty in the first place is decyphering that information and translating it into sliders!

Anyhow, all this is irrelavant, since last night I embarked on my best ever run in the game (6 straight wins in League Two utilising some simple tactical instructions) - almost 12 months after initial release!

Only two months until I have to start learning again!

:D

Ryknow
08-09-2008, 08:01
FM07 owned Fm08 but Fm08 is still a decent game. As said above half of your statements are to do with your tatics, take some time and adjust them and Im sure your team will play differently. Also make sure you have the new patches.

andyinuk
08-09-2008, 08:08
Having not played FM2008 for 3 months now due to my total and utter disgust with the game, I decided to dig it back out following the e-mail announcement that FM09 was on its way.

Loading the game back up my thoughts were that somehow a break from 08 could have refreshed my love for the game...........how wrong I was. All of the old pre-determined AI moves came back in abundance. My thoughts on FM 2007 and FM 2008 will now make me never purchase FM 2009. The whole game has lost its playability. When your playing the game you don't feel in control. You make your tactics, destroy the AI but never get the rewards, it always feels like results are predetermined. My obsverations of this game are shown below, there are so many more

1. Superkeepers
2. Far too many chances wasted
3. AI clinical as always regardless of which team it is
4. Ridculous results in games which you dominate
5. Ridiculous stats in your favour game after game with defeat after defeat
6. Far too many goals disallowed
7. Every goal you score seems to be described as a deflection
8. AI employing 4-2-4 with instant effect so much so that in some games I couldn't even switch my tactics
9. AI players regardless of stats and mental attributes can carry out moves which human players with superior stats can't
10. Human players not rewarded for making tactics which simply annialate the AI
11. AI teams with far better players destroy human teams
12. Results of games always tight - Human player 2-0 up with 10mins to go, AI not had a shot then AI hits one in from 40 yds and the last 5mins are nailbiting despite your striker with 18 finishing missing 21 attempts on target. Stats have AI 1 shot 1 goal and game desribes it as a close encounter
13. End of season striker blues. This happened so many time I have lost count. Strikers ticking along all season getting you goals, suddenly when the title comes close say last 8 games there morale goes from superb to poor, they are concerned before every game and so the AI uses this to make the player never score..............pathetic
14. Media interaction is pathetic. Not once has my decision to question a disallowed goal or a penalty ever been proven right.......abslotuely pathetic feature of the game
15. Player values don't reflect how well your team does. Example - Players worth less than you bought them for. Up shot of this is no point in playing lower leagues as you can't develop youth or unearth a gem and sell them on. I had stancu for FC Copenhagen, scored 25+ goals in 3 seasons in a row. Bought him for £2.6million. Loads of interest in him however when asked for how much I wanted for him no team would even come close to giving the money. As this unsettled him he forgot how to score wanted to leave and therefore I had to sell him for £3.5million. Garbage.

I honestly will not be purchasing FM2009. I bet I am not the only one. The game has slipped into a state where the so called diablo tactics created a sense of paranoia that the whole thing swung the other way where its programmed that the AI of the game is able to switch and evolve, regardless of AI manager ability or AI player stats, and it basically cheats in order that no matter what tactic the human employs the AI is able to counter it after 6 games or so. Shame on you SI. I feal like I have been robbed for my maoney for the last two purchases. You won't be getting my money for FM2009.

i always wonder how a game company can rob you when you willingly walked into a shop and bought the game.

wwfan
08-09-2008, 08:14
multi-strata/ Basic AI 442

3 strata is the minimum. 4-5 strata are the ones that tend to dominate possession no matter the holistic quality of the tactic.



narrow/attacking formation - as an example Kimz is neitherTrue, but you can't argue it doesn't have carrows!!



AI can change tactics too often to generate an overlapping FB or Defensive FB- this leads to overuse of OIs. rather than specific to a highlighted danger man, but I cannot understand why you asking a player to close down twice, tight mark maybe, but this is available without using OIs.I rarely start a match with OIs set (outside of playing the 4-1-2-1-2 when I always CD/wrong foot the FBs, CD the DMC and Tight Mark the AMC). However, if you find that the wingers are not doing the job you want them to, translating Smiley's explicit statement 'Wingers push the full back inside to reduce the passing options (when defending)' to 'wingers OI and wrong foot the FB' works



As I tend to use a lone striker with mxd fw runs and attacking mentality my observation is that he drops deep anyway.
Although I like the play with free roles it tends to in result terms make the tactic weaker.
There is also confusion with regard to free role player attribute as to how effective a free role is without this attribute.I tend to believe that free roles become more and more vital when playing against teams that sit back and park the bus. kimz may make them irrelevant but they are very important at higher levels when using a standard attacking 4-4-2. They improve the tactic as players try harder to find space.



A long farrow is OK for a MR/L but not MC. Many MCs get fwd into box ie Lampard. Also the AI are allowed an AMC barrowed to DM.

As I understand Diablo (before my time with FM) this farrow caused a problem so should have been considered for FM08, probably was and the problem coded out of game rather than remove farrows, however long carrows were probably new.The problem is that although wingers consistently get behind the FB, the MC does it much less often, hence a long farrow being very unrealistic. It was also used to exploit the marking gap between the MCs. In reality it just wouldn't happen. The farrowed AMC to FC also made pretty much every AMC play like a world beater, when it is actually a very specialist position.



As a heavily farrowed tactic tends to outscore and produce many chances it appears that a lot of chances are missed. If the same type of chances one game produce many goals then logical this should be same in other games bar a few, yet too often the strikers have an offday or offsides/fouls. You cannot read the AI 424 just anticipate (OP did not mention reading 2d), but the AI are masters of changing tactics and formation and this should not be a test of users reflexes to hit pause.The strikers have an offday becasue of the chance type that is being constantly created. From the pkms I have watched, if the carrow tactic scores early, then it will win at a canter as the other team has to start pushing up and the carrows exploit the space left behind. If it doesn't it will struggle, players will get worn out and the other team will usually have one or two quality scoring chances against a tired and morale-sapped side in the last 20 mins.



Having been a die hard 442 tactic only but kept having berbs not scoring for 40hrs first resorted to a carrow tactic (Cleons) then Kimz. So probably like many users pushed into angst and odd happenings on pitch just to get some decent results.

However we still do not know what type of tactic the OP is using to cause this angst, probably not Kimz as he would be winning.What these tactics do, and Cleon will be the first to admit, is ensure that the AI is not on a level playing field as the user tactic is doing something the AI tactic was not designed to cope with. The last three versions of FM have split the user base into those who created weird and whacky exploitive tactics (which were hugely creative and massively useful for ME evolution) and those who developed playing systems so they could use standard formation types. The switch between one mindset and the other is a tough one (I know from hard experience - my first posts on these forums were hugely critical of the FM06 engine as it totally challenged everything I thought I knew about playing FM). I also know that making the switch is worth it as the joy you experience from knowing you have beaten the ME on its own terms surpasses anything achieved by loading up exploitive tactic A and pressing continue.

In each version it has become harder and harder to be part of type one, as the engine becomes more adept at dealing with the exploitive nature of these tactics. It actually causes huge angst to remain in the 'there must be a super tactic to beat all' camp, but people seem to be hard coded into that way of playing. That is where the OP is. FM is slowly evolving away from that playing methodology. Even Cleon is using a 4-4-2 in FML. Personally, I think FM09 will be the version that forces people into the second camp. It will also generate a lot of pain and angst while people adapt, but once they do more and more people will see and appreciate exactly how good the ME actually is.

BigFW
08-09-2008, 09:36
Having not played FM2008 for 3 months now due to my total and utter disgust with the game, I decided to dig it back out following the e-mail announcement that FM09 was on its way.

Loading the game back up my thoughts were that somehow a break from 08 could have refreshed my love for the game...........how wrong I was. All of the old pre-determined AI moves came back in abundance. My thoughts on FM 2007 and FM 2008 will now make me never purchase FM 2009. The whole game has lost its playability. When your playing the game you don't feel in control. You make your tactics, destroy the AI but never get the rewards, it always feels like results are predetermined. My obsverations of this game are shown below, there are so many more

1. Superkeepers
2. Far too many chances wasted
3. AI clinical as always regardless of which team it is
4. Ridculous results in games which you dominate
5. Ridiculous stats in your favour game after game with defeat after defeat
6. Far too many goals disallowed
7. Every goal you score seems to be described as a deflection
8. AI employing 4-2-4 with instant effect so much so that in some games I couldn't even switch my tactics
9. AI players regardless of stats and mental attributes can carry out moves which human players with superior stats can't
10. Human players not rewarded for making tactics which simply annialate the AI
11. AI teams with far better players destroy human teams
12. Results of games always tight - Human player 2-0 up with 10mins to go, AI not had a shot then AI hits one in from 40 yds and the last 5mins are nailbiting despite your striker with 18 finishing missing 21 attempts on target. Stats have AI 1 shot 1 goal and game desribes it as a close encounter
13. End of season striker blues. This happened so many time I have lost count. Strikers ticking along all season getting you goals, suddenly when the title comes close say last 8 games there morale goes from superb to poor, they are concerned before every game and so the AI uses this to make the player never score..............pathetic
14. Media interaction is pathetic. Not once has my decision to question a disallowed goal or a penalty ever been proven right.......abslotuely pathetic feature of the game
15. Player values don't reflect how well your team does. Example - Players worth less than you bought them for. Up shot of this is no point in playing lower leagues as you can't develop youth or unearth a gem and sell them on. I had stancu for FC Copenhagen, scored 25+ goals in 3 seasons in a row. Bought him for £2.6million. Loads of interest in him however when asked for how much I wanted for him no team would even come close to giving the money. As this unsettled him he forgot how to score wanted to leave and therefore I had to sell him for £3.5million. Garbage.

I honestly will not be purchasing FM2009. I bet I am not the only one. The game has slipped into a state where the so called diablo tactics created a sense of paranoia that the whole thing swung the other way where its programmed that the AI of the game is able to switch and evolve, regardless of AI manager ability or AI player stats, and it basically cheats in order that no matter what tactic the human employs the AI is able to counter it after 6 games or so. Shame on you SI. I feal like I have been robbed for my maoney for the last two purchases. You won't be getting my money for FM2009.


I can understand the frustration,certainly with FM08, but having read articles by wwfan and cleon et al a lot can be improved. I'v been a die hard fan since 1994 and i think i've vented my fury at the screen at FM2008 more than any other release.
In fact I'm currently 19 games into the season, won 3 drawn 11 lost 5. Drawn 11! mostly been up by 1 or 2 goals only for the oppostion to have a monster last 20 mins! I know..Its my tactics, but it still frustrates. I'm not a fan of drastically chopping and changing tactics even though I know need to react to the AI.

As for FM2009 this has got me very excited. The engine from FML, which I hear is much better, and a nice 3D fron end for eye candy. You need to get it..end of. :D

Nomis07
08-09-2008, 09:57
Well I bought FM08 for £19 and have got over 9 months of gaming out of it, so it was definately worth the money despite it's obvious errors. Similarly FM09 will be worth the money because of the amount of gaming time i'll get out of it for £20-£30, a pack of cigarettes costs over £5 and lasts me a day, so generally FM is well worth it. I'll definately be buying it.

hayta
08-09-2008, 10:16
i share many of the complaint issues myself, every single one of them i can say. but they don't keep me away from buying or playing the game. yes, i am terribly addicted...

there are two main issues which i hope will be improving in 09;

one is transfer issues, which is already announced as "changed radically"... looking forward to that. because offering valuable players to clubs for -0- and no interest shown was out of this planet! also enquiries to players whom i already set an asking price was terribly annoying. more annoying was it was done by the same club over and over again...

the second one is ridiculous game stats not reflected by the scoresheet. ok it so happens in real life too but how many times? how many times in a season the favorites get beaten by the underdogs while stats sheet show dominance as hell. once? twice? ten times perhaps?? i don't think so.

and to those who blame it on the tactics. i really would love to witness your expertise on those tactics of yours. really...

hayta
08-09-2008, 10:39
ched,

There are a fair few people on the forums who are all to willing to blame themselves, their teamtalks and their tactics for their own failings with the game. I include myself in that bracket. Those that don't are'nt worth recognising or replying to. Thats not the argument I have.

The argument I have is that i've spent hours playing the game, tweaking this that and god knows what...referred back to "guru's" like wwfan, isuckatfm, buxton (in the old days), Ackter, Cleon, rashidi. You name them, i've read their theories....and took it all on board. I still struggle because when push comes to shove, all of the above gurus have their own opinions on what the match engine is, how the sliders work and so on. Some of their theories contradict each others and some of their theories tie in with what each other are saying. Its confusing to say the least. Some of the theories are fantastic, but you are talking about people who sit for hours and hours and hours tweaking certain sliders by one notch at a time. For me that is'nt realistic and is'nt what the game should be about and it is'nt what football is about.

SI themselves say they want the game to be as realistic as possible. We all do...

Using sliders with a scale of 1 to 20 is not realism IMHO....as i've pointed out in a previous post above. Managers IRL give simple instructions as to what they want a player to do. Claude Makelele would NOT have gone out on the pitch with Mourinho's instructions of 10/20 for mentality, closing down 17/20, creative freedom 4/20 etc. He would have been told to keep in touch with his back four, don't venture forward too much, close anyone down that comes into his Zone and keep things simple in posession.

Its difficult to translate what you want a player to do into "sliders" - since there are varying degrees of mentality, varying degrees of Creative Freedom aswell as a hidden link between all of them. For me, you either want a player to sit in his position, let him take his choice given the situation, or attack at will. You either want him to try tricks or you don't etc. You either want him to press the ball or you don't. You get the picture.

I think there is a better way and a simpler way to doing this. Being simpler to understand and simpler to produce a tactic that you want does'nt have to mean the game is "easier" - which is a lot of peoples' fears.

if there was reputation posting in this very forums like some others, i would have given it here.

people playing the game since old CM days upto now, loyally, are being treated like martians, like people who do not have the slightest idea about football, or tactics, or football manager series and its tactical issues. which is ugly...

i've been playing the game since cm01-02 i didn't miss a single game, in a country which is paradise for pirate gaming this is the only game that i purchase the original. i have done many things in the previous games and i probably played around 40-50 seasons in this game with 4-5 careers, maybe more and i still have not won a single champions league or managed to get my poor afc wimbledon to league 2 in 10 seasons. either my IQ dropped radically or there is something wrong with the game. either it changed in an unreasonable way that its older residents feel out of place, or we are all out of fashion in a fashionable way.

carboreeta
08-09-2008, 10:54
I want to play a football management sim, the best by far is FM, so i will buy it every year play it lots scream abuse and cheat at the AI even though i knwo there is no point, over the year I will go from being mediocre to finally acheiving success, through a process of reading the tactic psoting T&T etc, other peoples experiences/tactics etc and my own failings aor success, this will now be repeated with FM2009 when i just about have this FM2008 down pat, anyone for bi yearly releases :P

The alternative to the above, buy another football sim that is inferior in every way but you may not see any issues with because it is not very complex or stop playing Football mangement sims (never).

I love the CM/FM series it always has had issues it always will but they never get in the way of playing/enjoying the game - ok the closing down thing before 1st patch in FM2008 was close :)

Millie
08-09-2008, 11:20
I've been playing the game since cm01-02 i didn't miss a single game, in a country which is paradise for pirate gaming this is the only game that i purchase the original. i have done many things in the previous games and i probably played around 40-50 seasons in this game with 4-5 careers, maybe more and i still have not won a single champions league or managed to get my poor afc wimbledon to league 2 in 10 seasons. either my IQ dropped radically or there is something wrong with the game. either it changed in an unreasonable way that its older residents feel out of place, or we are all out of fashion in a fashionable way.

Herein my lie your problem. You're not playing CM01/02 anymore.

Themistofelis
08-09-2008, 11:38
After the release you can always read all negative posts and consider if you can stand playing a game with so many (if any) annoying features .
Pre-judging anything in life is not wise

I do agree it's your tactics - now go and read 6.000.000 posts on how to play the game

Ched
08-09-2008, 11:39
i've been playing the game since cm01-02 i didn't miss a single game, i have done many things in the previous games and i probably played around 40-50 seasons in this game with 4-5 careers, maybe more and i still have not won a single champions league or managed to get my poor afc wimbledon to league 2 in 10 seasons. either my IQ dropped radically or there is something wrong with the game.

Neither

The game merely became more realistic and requires a different approach to tactics - it's merely a case of adapting to the changes.

vladislav19
08-09-2008, 11:46
The game should be hard, so don't consider the fact you cant get afc wimbledon up the table an unrealistic element. And while the strong bellyaching tone of the original poster isn't terribly constructive, there is nothing more destructive than the old 'it's not the game, it's you' nugget. It implies the game is perfect and those who complain are merely poorly coordinated bumpkins.

Match engine has moved on, transfers have moved on, thus the complaints listed here are outdated. But wwfan's snarky response isn't up to the standards we should expect of Mods.

Nomis07
08-09-2008, 11:52
The game merely became more realistic and requires a different approach to tactics - it's merely a case of adapting to the changes.

Yes, gone are the days of playing 4-4-2 in CM2 or 3-5-2 in CM3 and achieving instant success, regardless of team, players or team/player instructions :D I think the harder it gets the more addictive it gets, although 4-2-3-1 with a top European side is still pretty easy.

Fernando Nano
08-09-2008, 11:55
I am curious to see how the media interaction will help this game. I will be amazed if I start playing in the Conference and have to attend press conferences. As far as I know this does not happen in real life. And the media influence will NEVER be higher than the one of a manager, so I was really hoping for a serious improvement of the player/manager relationship. Nothing has been released to ease my concernes. I feel dissapionted.

wwfan
08-09-2008, 11:56
If it hadn't been the same tired old arguments that have been trotted out without stop for the past 22 months I'd have been far more constructive, as I was later in the post. I decided to attempt levity instead, taking the 'it's your tactics' response to a ridiculous level. My reading of the situation was the OP would vent and leave, so any reply above the level of 'it's your tactics' would be wasting my time and my pixelated breath. As the OP hasn't revisited since it seems I might have been right in my evaluation of the situation.

However, since then I have explained in a reasonable amount of detail how people might be able to translate tactical issues into ME commands and outlined why the old FM approaches don't work any more. Hardly unhelpful.

hayta
08-09-2008, 12:08
Herein my lie your problem. You're not playing CM01/02 anymore.

i have not played cm01-02, then lost all my interest in soccer and manager games and came back in on fm08... i played every single game in between, from the launch day of the former until the launch day of the latter... i thought i made it quite clear on that one...? seems like i did not...

i am not new to this game, the point is that. and fm08 was the toughest one, and the most ridiculous one too...

hayta
08-09-2008, 12:11
Neither

The game merely became more realistic and requires a different approach to tactics - it's merely a case of adapting to the changes.

ched, i really did try mate... tried my classics, tried other people's classics... discovered, invited new things... played with a dm, played without one, tried to push all the game to opposition, sat down on my own area and ran for counters... anything...

and it is not that i totally agree with the topic's first post, that "i won't buy 09"... no way, i definitely will buy it and play it... i cannot even wait for the demo to come already!

but this game really had in-game playability issues. those who managed to overcome those by tweaking sliders are treating the others in an insensible way, that is annoying.

knap
08-09-2008, 12:12
wwfan

Thanks for taking your time to answer.

The AI442 has a MC barrow and MR/L farrow this is 5 strata in my book.

Kimz V1 does not have a single carrow and is the most popular. It does have long farrows on FBs.

Do we have a tips page on TTF for show onto foot?

I have looked at AMC farrow to FC tactics and IMO improved them by removing farrow and sarrows (available for downlod but does have carrows). I find the the AI sarrowed with AMC probably the AI also using this exploit.

If you let a tactic run without change you will be surprised how often the team makes a late goal comeback. At times you need to trust tactic and style of play.

Free roles and a little creative freedom is helpful for home tactic. My problem is that removing these for away games changes style of play and the in game hint advises against this. However I now have a relialbe tactic using these aspects but still requires testing.

The AI has the advantage re constant tactic change so I'm happy to try an exploit the ME.

If in FM09 we all end up playing 442 it may be a retro step as a game compared to more inventive tactics. However unlike OP I am looking forward to FM09.

Any thoughts on free role attribute?

Deathcab for Cutie
08-09-2008, 12:17
Considering there is always a demo before each release, you're pretty stupid to say "thats it I'm not buying your games anymore since I didn't like the last one". Try the demo, if you like it, buy it, if you don't, don't. But you can't say that you won't like the next one without playing it... especially since it's the FM game with the most testing ever of the match engine via FML garnering loads of feedback

i think you are pretty stupid for calling him stupid.

Ched
08-09-2008, 12:24
those who managed to overcome those by tweaking sliders are treating the others in an insensible way, that is annoying.

As wwfan pointed out, the only people that get treated in an "insensible" way are those who pass the buck, and just accuse the game of cheating etc. If someone says "what am i doing wrong?" I (as well as numerous others)will often go out of our way to help and assist those who are having trouble.

The quality of our suggestions may vary though :D (probably best to ignore me and listen to wwfan lol)



fm08 was the toughest one, and the most ridiculous one too


This is the issue many people are having - they can't figure out why FM08 is different (i personally didn't think it was that different to 07, in fact my fmt is essentially the same, but that's for another thread.)
I'm not saying you haven't tried, just that you haven't hit on a workable tactic yet - trust me, the game is supposed to be the hardest yet - and will hopefully continue to get harder, why? Because unfortunately that is realistic.

Hopefully the new assman feature will subtly guide people towards understanding where they're going wrong, and then all we be good :D

Ched
08-09-2008, 12:25
i think you are pretty stupid for calling him stupid.

Very helpful...

Deathcab for Cutie
08-09-2008, 12:26
9. AI players regardless of stats and mental attributes can carry out moves which human players with superior stats can't: it's your tactics


i thought moderators were supposed to be a voice of reason? who moderates the moderators?

hayta
08-09-2008, 12:35
As wwfan pointed out, the only people that get treated in an "insensible" way are those who pass the buck, and just accuse the game of cheating etc. If someone says "what am i doing wrong?" I (as well as numerous others)will often go out of our way to help and assist those who are having trouble.

The quality of our suggestions may vary though :D (probably best to ignore me and listen to wwfan lol)


This is the issue many people are having - they can't figure out why FM08 is different (i personally didn't think it was that different to 07, in fact my fmt is essentially the same, but that's for another thread.)
I'm not saying you haven't tried, just that you haven't hit on a workable tactic yet - trust me, the game is supposed to be the hardest yet - and will hopefully continue to get harder, why? Because unfortunately that is realistic.

Hopefully the new assman feature will subtly guide people towards understanding where they're going wrong, and then all we be good :D

of course people are willing to help. but the overall complaint fit in one single post in the initiation post of the topic is replied as "it's your tactics" all over... this is a so-called polite way of saying "you are dumb"... this should not be the way.

i agreed with StripeySCFC in his post because he was particularly right about the inconsistencies of the suggestions.

i am a member of my favorite club's forum, the "football manager 2008" topic is already 797 pages long, has 11,942 posts in it, which 918 of them are posted by myself. fm2009 topic is already 26 pages long etc. we discuss there too. i give out tactics, people make suggestions. but everybody's recipe for success varies so wildly, people like mine are confused who to listen to even after we admit our failures and ask for help.

i keep on admitting that i am a total failure in the game for this version, i do, really, honestly. i have not managed to achieve any of my fm07 successes in 08. of course the blame is not all on the game.

for 09, all i do is hope that 27/32 shots on goal would create more than one goal, while my pitiful opponent's 1/2 reflects 100% on the score sheet. no one can explain this with tactics or my strikers' lack of efficiency, can they? maybe once or twice per season, not more, am i totally wrong?

wwfan
08-09-2008, 12:37
I thought ignoring all my posts for one post was pretty special. Now it is every sentence for one sentence. You just can't win!! Despite my having written more words of advice on the FM08 ME than almost anybody else, I have to do it all over again for every user who has an issue. Surprisingly, given the lack of information in the first post, that is next to impossible, because I can only guess why he is seeing such things as we have no information about his tactic. Hence, it's your tactics is the only possible answer that is valid.

For what it is worth, Ched, which may be very little, I agree that '08 played very similarly to '07. CD and d-line were a little different, as were the effectiveness of TMs and playmakers, but other than that, I used almost exactly the same tactics as I did in 07.

jayahr
08-09-2008, 12:43
Am I really that stupid?

As a mod you can't expect an honest answer to this one ;)

Deathcab for Cutie
08-09-2008, 12:45
I thought ignoring all my posts for one post was pretty special. Now it is every sentence for one sentence. You just can't win!! Despite my having written more words of advice on the FM08 ME than almost anybody else, I have to do it all over again for every user who has an issue. Surprisingly, given the lack of information in the first post, that is next to impossible, because I can only guess why he is seeing such things as we have no information about his tactic. Hence, it's your tactics is the only possible answer that is valid.

For what it is worth, Ched, which may be very little, I agree that '08 played very similarly to '07. CD and d-line were a little different, as were the effectiveness of TMs and playmakers, but other than that, I used almost exactly the same tactics as I did in 07.

there is always the option to not comment if it has become such a 'burden'.

Nomis07
08-09-2008, 12:46
of course people are willing to help. but the overall complaint fit in one single post in the initiation post of the topic is replied as "it's your tactics" all over... this is a so-called polite way of saying "you are dumb"... this should not be the way.

I think that's quite a precious way of looking at it. I got a lot of help from the tactics and training forum, other than rehashing/reposting everything that has been said in there and all the pearls of wisdom certain members provide, "it's your tactics" is surely the only suitable response. Of course on occasion people can be quite blunt about it, but essentially what people are asking for in a majority of threads similar to this, is tactical advice. This advice is already available and has been given 100's of times before so it stands to reason that respected members who have put themselves out in helping others on many occasions, will eventually get tired of repeating themselves.

Nomis07
08-09-2008, 12:48
there is always the option to not comment if it has become such a 'burden'.

Unfortunately I think wwfan, and other mods or members who try to help, are left in the position that he will be lambasted for not replying and lambasted for replying. The nature of these forums, on occasion, is such that he will get the same response if he is offish about this subject as he would if he simply provided a link to the tactics and training forum, that isn't to say that I found anything he posted as offish or unhelpful.

Ched
08-09-2008, 12:49
there is always the option to not comment if it has become such a 'burden'.

An option i can only pray you will exercise in the future

Deathcab for Cutie
08-09-2008, 12:52
An option i can only pray you will exercise in the future

i don't feel that its a burden. in fact, i feel the urge to comment on your sarcasm. try harder...you might actually come up with something funny.

Deathcab for Cutie
08-09-2008, 12:56
Unfortunately I think wwfan, and other mods or members who try to help, are left in the position that he will be lambasted for not replying and lambasted for replying. The nature of these forums, on occasion, is such that he will get the same response if he is offish about this subject as he would if he simply provided a link to the tactics and training forum, that isn't to say that I found anything he posted as offish or unhelpful.

moderator

The Oxford Pocket Dictionary of Current English | Date: 2008
mod·er·a·tor / ˈmädəˌrātər/
• n. 1. an arbitrator or mediator: Egypt managed to assert its role as a regional moderator.
∎ a presiding officer, esp. a chairman of a debate. ∎ a Presbyterian minister presiding over an ecclesiastical body.
2. a substance used in a nuclear reactor to ****** neutrons


i think i like option 2. :D

carboreeta
08-09-2008, 12:57
For every person not doing well there can be found one that is doing well, if at least one person can do well then the game is not broken or cheating its just that that person is better than the rest at the "game" I know many games I am no good at on PC and other platforms but as I play more i improve and steal tips from those that are better so again improving myself. Those that are not good and do not get any better after experiencing FM2008 for a year now and with all the advice available on these forumns not to mention the ability to download tactics/training/player shortlists etc are doing somethign very very wrong.

So there are 3 choices, be happy with mediocrity, improve, stop playing (the final choice appears to be that which the OP is taking)

wwfan
08-09-2008, 13:05
You do like to make friends and influence people, don't you? From experience, the OP type won't read what I have to say anyway. However, to make you happy:

1. Superkeepers: you are probably creating too many snatched or long-range chances due to a combination of too narrow tactics and playing at too high a tempo. You are probably also only generating chances via through balls, rather than moving the ball across the midfield to someone who can play a cross or through ball while in space. Slowing it down might help, as would playing with wingers. Getting your full backs to overlap might also be useful, as that creates even more chance of an uncontested ball in. Giving strikers free roles and CF can also help them to find space and pick the right type of shot when they get a chance.
2. Far too many chances wasted: see above
3. AI clinical as always regardless of which team it is: it is likely that your defensive settings are poor. The common error is to have the midfield sitting too far from the back line, thus allowing opposing strikers too much space to work in. Other possible errors are having the whole team zonal.loose marking, too deep a d-line, too high closing down on the DCs. However, without you explaining your tactic further I am only guessing as to which it could be
4. Ridculous results in games which you dominate: a combination of the above points. Common problems with the above type of tactic is that they keep the ball in the centre of the park pretty easily and create many long range shots, thus statistically suggesting you have a good tactic. However, in reality they don't create any good chances and are hugely vulnerable to late counter attacks.
5. Ridiculous stats in your favour game after game with defeat after defeat: see the above points
6. Far too many goals disallowed: I would suggest that you probably have your FCs on too high a mentality and FWRS often. That will lead to them being caught offside a lot.
7. Every goal you score seems to be described as a deflection: because of all the above, many shots will be taken in crowded areas. These will deflect
8. AI employing 4-2-4 with instant effect so much so that in some games I couldn't even switch my tactics: If you are 1-0 up with 20 mins to go, any team will try to get back in the game. The 4-2-4 is how the AI tries to do this. Be proactive and decide to see out the game before the AI changes its system
9. AI players regardless of stats and mental attributes can carry out moves which human players with superior stats can't: They are usually in more space. See above for explanation
10. Human players not rewarded for making tactics which simply annialate the AI: they don't annihilate them. They generate high shot counts, but none of the shots are of any quality. See above
11. AI teams with far better players destroy human teams: only if all the above is going on and the lack of quality of your players is compounded by the paucity of the tactic
12. Results of games always tight - Human player 2-0 up with 10mins to go, AI not had a shot then AI hits one in from 40 yds and the last 5mins are nailbiting despite your striker with 18 finishing missing 21 attempts on target. Stats have AI 1 shot 1 goal and game desribes it as a close encounter: Be proactive and switch to a more cautious tactic to see the game out. Think about keeping players back by reducing mentality and FWRs.
13. End of season striker blues. This happened so many time I have lost count. Strikers ticking along all season getting you goals, suddenly when the title comes close say last 8 games there morale goes from superb to poor, they are concerned before every game and so the AI uses this to make the player never score..............pathetic: Try to take the pressure off them in the man/media management options. Praise them for good performances and sympathise with bad.
14. Media interaction is pathetic. Not once has my decision to question a disallowed goal or a penalty ever been proven right.......abslotuely pathetic feature of the game: offsides are pretty easy to read. Other infractions aren't. If you can't read them, just ignore them.
15. Player values don't reflect how well your team does. Example - Players worth less than you bought them for. Up shot of this is no point in playing lower leagues as you can't develop youth or unearth a gem and sell them on. I had stancu for FC Copenhagen, scored 25+ goals in 3 seasons in a row. Bought him for £2.6million. Loads of interest in him however when asked for how much I wanted for him no team would even come close to giving the money. As this unsettled him he forgot how to score wanted to leave and therefore I had to sell him for £3.5million. Garbage. As I said before, i agree with this one, but as the transfer module is being rewritten, it doesn't matter.


Now, we'll see if these answers, which are still only partial, make any difference to the OP. I apologise for all the offence I have caused. I will never attempt humour again.

Nomis07
08-09-2008, 13:06
I find it quite funny that users like Deathcab_for_Cutie, seem shocked that moderators etc get fed up with these forums considering how little his last few posts have added to this discussion and how quickly threads can turn into inane ramblings. I also take exception to his username, because that band ruined "This Charming Man", and didn't even get the words right :rolleyes: :) .

Ched
08-09-2008, 13:11
I find it quite funny that users like Deathcab_for_Cutie, seem shocked that moderators etc get fed up with these forums considering how little his last few posts have added to this discussion and how quickly threads can turn into inane ramblings. I also take exception to his username, because that band ruined "This Charming Man", and didn't even get the words right :rolleyes: :) .

It's a pity as there was a decent debate going on and the thread had improved dramatically since the OP.

Deathcab for Cutie
08-09-2008, 13:14
my posts were in response to those so called 'inane ramblings'.

your last post hasn't exactly contributed to solving world hunger either so lets just move on.

Ched
08-09-2008, 13:17
i feel the urge to comment on your sarcasm. try harder...you might actually come up with something funny.



your last post hasn't exactly contributed to solving world hunger either so lets just move on.

...........

Deathcab for Cutie
08-09-2008, 13:20
you should try to come up with your own stuff. i know..thinking hurts, but try anyway

Nomis07
08-09-2008, 13:22
Argh, right let's end this now and discuss the actual topic. Do you actually have an opinion on what has been discussed so far Deathcab?

Goofus
08-09-2008, 13:24
1. Superkeepers: It could be that your strikers are impotent(think wrong word to use), or they are taking too long shots. Therefore, the keepers save more shots, and therefore are seen as 'superkeepers'. Being a goalkeeper myself, one game i can be a superb keeper(where in reality the shots are spectacular but savable)and in another, absolute ********.
2. Far too many chances wasted: See Above.
3. AI clinical as always regardless of which team it is: They might have 'broken' your tactic. In other words, you must adjust your tactic. Torres can penetrate almost any defence, but against Man Utd, he has so far drawn a blank. This is because Vidic and Ferdinand have adapted, with Vidic providing the physical presence and Ferdinand staying sharp to Torres at all times.
4. Ridculous results in games which you dominate: Portsmouth 7-4 Reading? In some games, you might dominate(81% for England vs. Andorra possession), however poor finishing and defensive lapses, may bring you on the wrong side of a thrashing.
5. Ridiculous stats in your favour game after game with defeat after defeat: Above.
6. Far too many goals disallowed: happens a lot to me too. Could be your strikers are playing too attacking, thus too far up front.
7. Every goal you score seems to be described as a deflection: That is exaggeration. For free-kicks, yes this is true. But for goals, i would say a few only are scored by deflections per month. This is true even in real life.
8. AI employing 4-2-4 with instant effect so much so that in some games I couldn't even switch my tactics: This is your own fault. You should have seen their approach to 4-2-4 as soon as you went 1-0 up. Granted, if it's 3-0 up, there's no need to change. But with 1-0 up and little time to go, its normal any team would attack. You must anticipate.
9. AI players regardless of stats and mental attributes can carry out moves which human players with superior stats can't: Better positions? Basically,it's your tactics. And I'm not joking.
10. Human players not rewarded for making tactics which simply annialate the AI: What is annialate? and this is untrue. See 'diablo' tactics for further detail.
11. AI teams with far better players destroy human teams: What were you expecting?Norwich to triumph against Chelsea?
12. Results of games always tight - Human player 2-0 up with 10mins to go, AI not had a shot then AI hits one in from 40 yds and the last 5mins are nailbiting despite your striker with 18 finishing missing 21 attempts on target. Stats have AI 1 shot 1 goal and game desribes it as a close encounter: As soon as you score, the opposition will attack. Its up to you to make the necessary defensive preparation.
13. End of season striker blues. This happened so many time I have lost count. Strikers ticking along all season getting you goals, suddenly when the title comes close say last 8 games there morale goes from superb to poor, they are concerned before every game and so the AI uses this to make the player never score..............pathetic: Now this has happened to me personally. You need to get his confidence back. Praise him, guide him, sympathise, get his morale back. He will start scoring. Trust me.
14. Media interaction is pathetic. Not once has my decision to question a disallowed goal or a penalty ever been proven right.......abslotuely pathetic feature of the game: Ignore them. Most of the time they aren't worth it.
15. Player values don't reflect how well your team does. Example - Players worth less than you bought them for. Up shot of this is no point in playing lower leagues as you can't develop youth or unearth a gem and sell them on. I had stancu for FC Copenhagen, scored 25+ goals in 3 seasons in a row. Bought him for £2.6million. Loads of interest in him however when asked for how much I wanted for him no team would even come close to giving the money. As this unsettled him he forgot how to score wanted to wanted to leave and therefore I had to sell him for £3.5million. Garbage. The transfer module is broken and will be changed.

Ched
08-09-2008, 13:27
Perfect response goofus. Unfortunately, after posting his tripe, the OP has sinced bailed, leaving a distinct essence of "troll" in the air. Which makes any debate over whether we've treated him unfairly a bit pointless tbh.

wwfan
08-09-2008, 13:27
That's so eerily similar it's spooky :D

Deathcab for Cutie
08-09-2008, 13:28
its obvious the OP is having major issues...so does fm08. it can be a very frustrating game. totally agree with serpico. he said it all.

Ched
08-09-2008, 13:28
That's so eerily similar it's spooky :D

wwfans alias account ;)

wwfan
08-09-2008, 13:29
It can also be a very rewarding game.

Nomis07
08-09-2008, 13:33
its obvious the OP is having major issues...so does fm08. it can be a very frustrating game.

True, but there are always obvious failings on our part as well and human nature determines it's easier to blame the game than accept any personal responsibility for issues.

I agree with you 100% that FM08 has issues, but in my experience there are only a handfull that are unavoidable, and few of these have anything to do with the match engine or individual game statisitics/representation.

hayta
08-09-2008, 13:34
yeah ok...

thanx wwfan...

Deathcab for Cutie
08-09-2008, 13:36
It can also be a very rewarding game.

it can be. what makes this game hellish that is stinks of 'pre-determined' outcomes. every once in a while, i'd drop a game to the bottom side.

a few times i replayed the game to see what happens with different tactics....nothing. i'd still drop the game.

once i had terry score three owngoals in the last ten minutes. i lost the game 4:3. this happened at the sixth attempt at trying to win. i gave up after that

carboreeta
08-09-2008, 13:37
That's so eerily similar it's spooky :D

Because you have said it a lot b4 and we have all "mostly" listened and can now deal with these issues :P

Take it as a compliment :)

carboreeta
08-09-2008, 13:37
That's so eerily similar it's spooky :D


it can be. what makes this game hellish that is stinks of 'pre-determined' outcomes. every once in a while, i'd drop a game to the bottom side.

a few times i replayed the game to see what happens with different tactics....nothing. i'd still drop the game.

once i had terry score three owngoals in the last ten minutes. i lost the game 4:3. this happened at the sixth attempt at trying to win. i gave up after that

If yuo pre-determine it but take no action isnt it self prophesy?

hayta
08-09-2008, 13:38
one last addition though, and i don't know if it is sigames core's issue or local research teams' but...

in Turkey the underdog teams do not switch off to 4-2-4 and strangle you around your penalty area as soon as they drop 1-0 down... maybe in the final 10-15 minutes but not on 30th minute... they usually keep on sitting down in their own area looking for a counter attack equalizer... this is the character of most of the teams other than the top 4 teams of the nation, unfortunately...

Ched
08-09-2008, 13:39
one last addition though, and i don't know if it is sigames core's issue or local research teams' but...

in Turkey the underdog teams do not switch off to 4-2-4 and strangle you around your penalty area as soon as they drop 1-0 down... maybe in the final 10-15 minutes but not on 30th minute... they usually keep on sitting down in their own area looking for a counter attack equalizer... this is the character of most of the teams other than the top 4 teams of the nation, unfortunately...

Not a research issue - it's just the games "AI" - its solution to being behind is to attack - whether this is realistic or not is for another thread, but fair point.

Deathcab for Cutie
08-09-2008, 13:41
True, but there are always obvious failings on our part as well and human nature determines it's easier to blame the game than accept any personal responsibility for issues.

I agree with you 100% that FM08 has issues, but in my experience there are only a handfull that are unavoidable, and few of these have anything to do with the match engine or individual game statisitics/representation.

i agree with you.

most people just cant get used to the change in the game. 07 was a breeze compared to 08.

i can't even get close to repeating my success in 07. feel like getting a deathcab and finding a cutie to relieve my frustration.

Deathcab for Cutie
08-09-2008, 13:42
If yuo pre-determine it but take no action isnt it self prophesy?

does this make me a prophet?

chopper99
08-09-2008, 13:43
Every time I come back into GQ it just enforces the decision I made to stop bothering with it and to spend my time in other sub forums instead.

There are plenty of people having success at the game so if you're not then it's down to your tactics. If you ask people for help and are willing to accept that you may be partially to blame somewhere along the line, then they'll give you all the help you want.

If you post rubbish saying the game cheats and the only reason that you can't do well is because the game is crap then you'll get the short 'it's your tactics' answer that you deserve.

The game has become more difficult and there are still many areas of it that need to be improved. But the fact is that at least 80% of the opening posters issues are caused by something he's doing wrong. I'm confident enough of this to say that it is indeed fact.

And what I really can't understand is how someone can dislike a game that much and yet play it again after 3 months away. And then, after realising they still dislike the game take the time to rant about it on a forum. I've played hundreds of game over the years that I didn't really like, but the normal thing to do is just to play something else. Isn't it?

There are plenty of posts from us so called 'fanboys' that criticise the game in a constructive way and actually help the game to improve. Opening posts like this one lead to absolutely nothing constructive. They just give the idiots an excuse to come out of the woodwork, and helpful people such as wwfan another reason to think twice about actually helping people.

Ched
08-09-2008, 13:43
it can be. what makes this game hellish that is stinks of 'pre-determined' outcomes. every once in a while, i'd drop a game to the bottom side.

a few times i replayed the game to see what happens with different tactics....nothing. i'd still drop the game.

once i had terry score three owngoals in the last ten minutes. i lost the game 4:3. this happened at the sixth attempt at trying to win. i gave up after that

You have to consider the number of unchanged variables that go into the match.

- morale
- fatigue
- complacency
- squad cohesion
- squad consistency
- injuries
- squad make-up (no i'm not talking about blusher ;) )
- weather
- media comments

etc etc etc

Replaying individual matches is almost utterly useless, if you've changed a tactic for an individual match then it takes a while for your players to even become comfortable with a new tactic.

All of this also requires that one flawed tactic wasn't swapped for another flawed tactic.
I assure you, nothing is pre determined (i used to have theories along these lines myself - i know consider myself to be enlightened lol).

Nomis07
08-09-2008, 13:43
4-2-4 is a compeltely different issue to this thread, but I do see where you're coming from. IMO the teams going to 4-2-4 as an attacking tactic when losing is realistic, however there is an issue with the implementation i.e. every team changes to 4-2-4 and there doesn't appear to be an alternative attacking formation, which is unrealistic.

Ched
08-09-2008, 13:44
Every time I come back into GQ it just enforces the decision I made to stop bothering with it and to spend my time in other sub forums instead.


We miss you /weeps

Deathcab for Cutie
08-09-2008, 13:50
helpful people such as wwfan another reason to think twice about actually helping people.

im sure wwfan is a lovely sydney sider and helps old ladies across the road but his inital posting of "its your tactics" comments didn't do any favours for anyone.

there are boo boys and fan boys on this forum. this kind of stuff will always happen

Nomis07
08-09-2008, 13:50
We miss you /weeps

I wouldn't go that far, but it is disappointing to see members such as chopper99 who contribute a lot of useful info decide to go elsewhere because of the way GQ has went recently. It's particularly irritating because whilst I don't always agree with what certain members write, it was interesting to take part in a constructive discussion about it.

chopper99
08-09-2008, 13:51
We miss you /weeps

I'm touched.

Deathcab for Cutie
08-09-2008, 13:51
We miss you /weeps

:D:thup::D

Nomis07
08-09-2008, 13:52
im sure wwfan is a lovely sydney sider and helps old ladies across the road but his inital posting of "its your tactics" comments didn't do any favours for anyone.

But what he said isn't wrong. Unfortunately I think people took offence to the fact that he didn't provide all the answers on a plate for them, because there's not really much wrong with what he did say.

Mitja
08-09-2008, 13:53
interesting discussion, guys

Nomis07
08-09-2008, 13:53
I'm touched.

"Chopper touched while Ched weeps shocker".

Sorry :rolleyes:

Marc Vaughan
08-09-2008, 13:55
if there was reputation posting in this very forums like some others, i would have given it here.

people playing the game since old CM days upto now, loyally, are being treated like martians, like people who do not have the slightest idea about football, or tactics, or football manager series and its tactical issues. which is ugly...

i've been playing the game since cm01-02 i didn't miss a single game, in a country which is paradise for pirate gaming this is the only game that i purchase the original. i have done many things in the previous games and i probably played around 40-50 seasons in this game with 4-5 careers, maybe more and i still have not won a single champions league or managed to get my poor afc wimbledon to league 2 in 10 seasons. either my IQ dropped radically or there is something wrong with the game. either it changed in an unreasonable way that its older residents feel out of place, or we are all out of fashion in a fashionable way.

The game is definitely much tougher now if you like to take teams from bottom to top, this is more realistic but might not appeal to everyone.

I can still do it though (its one of the 'tests' I put FM through before release each version) - in the last version it took me on average 20 seasons to take Cambridge City to the top. The trick is to find young players and sell them for as much as possible in order to finance continually evolving and improving your side.

Its painful initially as you find you're selling your favourite player continually, but its essential to do so in order to fund stadium improvements which are essential to make it into the top flight (and indeed compete in the Championship).

To find decent youngsters I tend to do the following:
* Check release lists for ALL big clubs continually towards the end of a season.
* Pick up any players who have been released who have decent physical stats (you're in the lower leagues, physical prowess alone will be enough for the lowest levels).
* Play the players in a few matches if they cut it great, if not leave em in the reserves if they don't improve within a season or two dump em (yes some will come good eventually and bit you later - but you're looking to bulk shift and find stars quickly).

In the first couple of seasons the main positions you need to fill are goalie and striker - if you have quality players in those positions in the lower division then hard workers for the rest will get you promoted (play a 4-5-1 if you only have one decent striker I find).

Hope this helps,

Marc
PS - Don't forget with tactics that simple changes are very effective - notably the defending 'level' for a team, if you've a slow defense and are up against fast strikers drop the defense back (and if possible 'collapse' your midfield a little to make it hard for them to run through on your defenders, you're looking to just leave them with no space to run and definitely not the ability to break past your defense and run at goal), if you've a fast defense against slow strikers push it forward etc.

Deathcab for Cutie
08-09-2008, 13:57
thanks marc, good tips

wwfan
08-09-2008, 14:01
Because you have said it a lot b4 and we have all "mostly" listened and can now deal with these issues :P

Take it as a compliment :)

Actually, it is posts like this that make all the effort worthwhile. Thanks.

Deathcab for Cutie
08-09-2008, 14:01
re the deeply contrasting views on this forum. it just shows how passionate people are about this game. some get angry, some go off to la-la land.

the bottomline is that the fm series is strong as ever and here to say. i really didn't enjoy fm08 for various reasons but can't wait to get my hands on 09. it sounds great

chopper99
08-09-2008, 14:04
"Chopper touched while Ched weeps shocker".

Sorry :rolleyes:

That would be worth coming back for ;)

Mitja
08-09-2008, 14:10
i really didn't enjoy fm08 for various reasons but can't wait to get my hands on 09. it sounds great

I feel like that since...mmmm...I forgot. but I still play each version.

Nomis07
08-09-2008, 14:11
re the deeply contrasting views on this forum. it just shows how passionate people are about this game. some get angry, some go off to la-la land.

the bottomline is that the fm series is strong as ever and here to say. i really didn't enjoy fm08 for various reasons but can't wait to get my hands on 09. it sounds great

To back that up, i'm not particularly excited by FM09 at all :D

glamdring
08-09-2008, 14:24
I'm excited by FM09, but only in the sense that I'll go out and buy it when it is out. My excitement about it before then is rather muted, although I have found FM08 to be so frustrating I have now given up on it and returned to FM06 for some fun. Trouble with FM08 was that I had some great times with it - my Bundesliga-winning season with Werder Bremen was one of my most enjoyable seasons in any save in any version, but then it all went wrong and I've totally lost all confidence in my ability to put together a tactic in which superior players will beat inferior players on something approximating to a consistent basis :( Seems like brick wall syndrome has set in for me so unless I want to play FM06 for over a year I'll definitely want to try FM09 and get excited about it (and then frustrated and then excited again, etc, etc...same as most new FMs, it's just that the balance between frustration and excitement/enjoyment varies from version to version)!

Goofus
08-09-2008, 14:29
That's so eerily similar it's spooky :D

Well,i DID copy and paste your whole chunk...
and then modified :D

hayta
08-09-2008, 14:30
The game is definitely much tougher now if you like to take teams from bottom to top, this is more realistic but might not appeal to everyone.

I can still do it though (its one of the 'tests' I put FM through before release each version) - in the last version it took me on average 20 seasons to take Cambridge City to the top. The trick is to find young players and sell them for as much as possible in order to finance continually evolving and improving your side.

Its painful initially as you find you're selling your favourite player continually, but its essential to do so in order to fund stadium improvements which are essential to make it into the top flight (and indeed compete in the Championship).

To find decent youngsters I tend to do the following:
* Check release lists for ALL big clubs continually towards the end of a season.
* Pick up any players who have been released who have decent physical stats (you're in the lower leagues, physical prowess alone will be enough for the lowest levels).
* Play the players in a few matches if they cut it great, if not leave em in the reserves if they don't improve within a season or two dump em (yes some will come good eventually and bit you later - but you're looking to bulk shift and find stars quickly).

In the first couple of seasons the main positions you need to fill are goalie and striker - if you have quality players in those positions in the lower division then hard workers for the rest will get you promoted (play a 4-5-1 if you only have one decent striker I find).

Hope this helps,

Marc
PS - Don't forget with tactics that simple changes are very effective - notably the defending 'level' for a team, if you've a slow defense and are up against fast strikers drop the defense back (and if possible 'collapse' your midfield a little to make it hard for them to run through on your defenders, you're looking to just leave them with no space to run and definitely not the ability to break past your defense and run at goal), if you've a fast defense against slow strikers push it forward etc.

well, ok, i have some account issues and have not been able to contribute to the forum as much as i'd like to. and me poppin' up in this thread and moaning about the difficulty of the game has raised some attention, thanx to all those who are willing to help.

since i did not have the chance to share my careers in the fm08, neither my tactics all your suggestions sound appropriate to those who listen to it as the third ear. makes sense, good advice, proper suggestion etc. which they are.

but believe me, i tried preset tactics used by friends and succeeded, i tried standards, i tried tuned ones. this and that. and besides i HATE using other people's shortlists, tactics, even traning regimes. i KNOW this game for god's sake, i do, really...

what i do mostly is start a game with my favorite club at first glance, play it for 2-3 seasons, save and back up and start a game with 40 leagues, unemployed... and crawl up. and no, i haven't won the CL with and low division clubs but i have been successfull to some extent of my own, which satisfied me. alright. i was happy. of course i want to win CL with barnet for example but championship playoffs are fine if so.

i have significant complaints about 08, which did not stop me from playing the game, which i still am (the game is ON at home on this very moment so i would not have to wait for loading as soon as i get home). but i want it to be better.

and i cannot find a better way to make constructive criticism.

as i have mentioned in my previous comments in this thread, difficulties that i face, which might or might not be dependant on my tactics start to get annoying after some point. and when it comes to that, there is nothing more normal than me complaning, is there? really?

i can have fred and semih up front, lulinha behind them with adrien, good wingers, defenders with PAs around 160s CA's not lower than 120 but still score 2 goals with 19/23 shots and concede a 40yarder from a midfielder whose long shots is only 11-12 and lose the game still? ok, this is football, the ball is round, luck etc. sure. it happens, have happened, will happen. but, how many times in a season? how come relegating sides' managers manage to resolve my tactics and provide a better one against me but still get relegated cause they keep losing against weaker teams? come on...

rakhabbit
08-09-2008, 14:57
Even tho the OP has apparently left his thread, i understand and know excactly where he's coming from

i kind of understand little bits of the tactical system, but the whole thing together confuses the hell out of me

09 and the ass.man feedback could be the solution to a large chunk of the FM playerbase

================================================== =================

oh btw

annihilate

it means to totally destroy

clicky (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/annihilate)

Themistofelis
08-09-2008, 19:20
Looking for common sense in any game is just unrealistic .
FM08 is too random in all aspects , Keepers are boosted so scores are kept in "realistic levels" * , game is very hostile to casual gamer.


*To those arguing that keepers are boosted i remember something a Dev said and this is "if you score 5 goals in 1st half you wont scoring any more on the 2nd" so the engine has the ability to limit your scoring...i bet we all have seen how.

on a second thought does this mean that it is not your tactics?

/me collapses

Ched
08-09-2008, 22:33
*To those arguing that keepers are boosted i remember something a Dev said and this is "if you score 5 goals in 1st half you wont scoring any more on the 2nd" so the engine has the ability to limit your scoring...i bet we all have seen how.


I'd love to see some evidence of this....

knap
08-09-2008, 23:29
To a degree yes it happens, however the AI SUS damage limitation - motivation is low job done - I would say realistic and happens to AI.

sven78
08-09-2008, 23:29
I thought this would create some debate.

Let me clarify, I havent just created a post full of things that frustrate me about the game because I am a moaner.......I have as much right to disaprove of the game as all the people who defend it. I purchased as you did therefore I can genuinely post my thoughts.......It still amazes me that people not connected to the game, i.e don't work for SI take the criticism to heart. Anyway I don't want to dwell on the moaner / blinkered debate. Let me add my thoughts constructively:

To clarify my post isn't borne out of lack of ability. When I finished my last game in early July it was off the back of a 4 season career with FC Copenhagen in which I won the league 4 times in a row. This may sound weird I know but bare with me.

I prefer not to play the game in the established leagues, much more interested in attempting to develop young players etc. Anyway whilst playing this particular game I began to notice / observe things which made me really question the games usability. During all 4 seasons it felt to me that I wasn't in control........it felt as though in a way the results were predetermined. Too many things happening which can't be simply passed off as "tactics".

First observation is the goals to attempts ratio. Too many times games were drawn or lost out of absolutely no where. I am taking about playing virtual part time teams, hammering them with in excess of 20 clear attempts, not scoring any of them, only for a team with poorer players to run up the other end and poke a goal in with there second attempt. Yes this happens in football maybe twice a season, however it felt that this was the norm, happening week after week. Please don't claim this to be tactics. The number of attempts which I consistently failed to put away was staggering. This can not be passed off as simply incorrect tactics. If what people are telling me is that my slider was one notch off the correct notch then the game has failed before it has begun in my eyes. I know how I want to set my teams up but if 14 instead of 15 on any given slider greatly affects the game, to the extent that it prevents you competing on an level with the AI then I am sorry but it isn't simulated football management its more like computer programming, the human element has been totally lost. What I am trying to say is if this is the way the game needs to be played then it isn't a game anymore, its almost a mathematical puzzle. It bears no resemblance to a re-creation of football management.

Second observation which I continually struggle to understand is the AI in all aspects of Football Manager. What I mean by this is regardless of what league you play in the AI managers and players have the same ability. Stats are totally irrelevant. Playing in Denmark, or any of the other less glamorous leagues, I noticed that managers of the opposing teams, who by a reputation standard would be classed as national at best, easily work out your tactics after maybe 10 games. It isn't one manager its the whole league. They all adapt to counter the human when we as the human player have no way of working out there specific tactics, only a generic scout report which was honestly the same for all opponents in Denmark. This is so unrealistic because it links to my other point about player stats. My team in Denmark was miles ahead of anything else in the league player wise.......even if the managers could counter my tactics surely if the players are inferior they shouldn't be able to carry out the tactics to the letter every time but yet they do with ease. To back up this point the perfect example is the Champions League. I got to play in the Champs League 4 years in a row obviously. In the league I had the best team but struggled to win consistently, some down right disgusting results if I am frank. Moving into the Champions league I got battered every week, quite rightly as well. My team was no where near good enough to compete. It always feels playing this game that when the AI has the better players then they punish you yet when the shoe is on the other foot i.e human better than AI it somehow doesn't transend the way it should. This may sound like moaning but it happens.

I openly and honestly can't believe that all the complaints people have with this game are purely down to tactics...............maybe I am blinkered but tactics aren't the be all and end all in football IRL. IF they were then why in England do the same 4 teams compete for the top four places, in Scotland 2 teams do, in Spain 4 possibly 5 the same in Italy. Its not tactics solely...........they all have the best players. Players are humans they aren't robots but this game would have you believe that your opponents are. Despite them having inferior stars they seem unaffected.

Again people will disagree with me but thats how it is. Some people can see no wrong in this game some people can. Its all opinions, if people share there opinions don't dismiss them, they are experiencing it, they are not making it up. Facts are Facts.......the game has its faults no one can deny that. The fact that some people have gone some way to mastering it gives me hope that the all conquering tactic hasn't made SI paraniod where they have programmed the game to adapt to whatever the human does but in the back of my mind I can't help but feel that they have lost the inetraction with the game from the early ones. Yes they may have been to easy to conquer but I honestly think that 07 and now 08 have lost the edge. I always feel remote from it. As I said at the top.......its as if I am not in control. You create a tactic set it loose but something is preventing it work.

To back up my comments about players stats being irrelevant in the league you compete I am running a test. I haven't played enough games to collect relevant data but its beginning to take on a familiar pattern.

CSF90
08-09-2008, 23:35
Will FM09 be worth it? £30? It's a bargain.

Simply no other game, no matter how good it is on a technical level (a la MGS4 or GTAIV), keeps you coming back for more and has as much replay value as FM. Hours and hours of enjoyment for me personally, I play it whilst working, whilst browsing the internet, in my free periods at school, whilst in the shower... OK, not the last one. But still, FM09 only has to be as good as FM08 (which was disappointing in some respects, yet I'm still sat here doing Economics homework, playing my 30th save at 12.35am) and it will be well worth it...

sven78
08-09-2008, 23:41
3. AI clinical as always regardless of which team it is: it's your tactics

7. Every goal you score seems to be described as a deflection: it's your tactics


I assume with these you are proving a point about tactics. Can you explain how my tactics make an inferior AI striker take his 1 and only chance?????

Oh I get it, one of my sliders was 1 notch in the wrong direction

toon army 06
08-09-2008, 23:49
Having not played FM2008 for 3 months now due to my total and utter disgust with the game, I decided to dig it back out following the e-mail announcement that FM09 was on its way.

Loading the game back up my thoughts were that somehow a break from 08 could have refreshed my love for the game...........how wrong I was. All of the old pre-determined AI moves came back in abundance. My thoughts on FM 2007 and FM 2008 will now make me never purchase FM 2009. The whole game has lost its playability. When your playing the game you don't feel in control. You make your tactics, destroy the AI but never get the rewards, it always feels like results are predetermined. My obsverations of this game are shown below, there are so many more

1. Superkeepers
2. Far too many chances wasted
3. AI clinical as always regardless of which team it is
4. Ridculous results in games which you dominate
5. Ridiculous stats in your favour game after game with defeat after defeat
6. Far too many goals disallowed
7. Every goal you score seems to be described as a deflection
8. AI employing 4-2-4 with instant effect so much so that in some games I couldn't even switch my tactics
9. AI players regardless of stats and mental attributes can carry out moves which human players with superior stats can't
10. Human players not rewarded for making tactics which simply annialate the AI
11. AI teams with far better players destroy human teams
12. Results of games always tight - Human player 2-0 up with 10mins to go, AI not had a shot then AI hits one in from 40 yds and the last 5mins are nailbiting despite your striker with 18 finishing missing 21 attempts on target. Stats have AI 1 shot 1 goal and game desribes it as a close encounter
13. End of season striker blues. This happened so many time I have lost count. Strikers ticking along all season getting you goals, suddenly when the title comes close say last 8 games there morale goes from superb to poor, they are concerned before every game and so the AI uses this to make the player never score..............pathetic
14. Media interaction is pathetic. Not once has my decision to question a disallowed goal or a penalty ever been proven right.......abslotuely pathetic feature of the game
15. Player values don't reflect how well your team does. Example - Players worth less than you bought them for. Up shot of this is no point in playing lower leagues as you can't develop youth or unearth a gem and sell them on. I had stancu for FC Copenhagen, scored 25+ goals in 3 seasons in a row. Bought him for £2.6million. Loads of interest in him however when asked for how much I wanted for him no team would even come close to giving the money. As this unsettled him he forgot how to score wanted to leave and therefore I had to sell him for £3.5million. Garbage.

I honestly will not be purchasing FM2009. I bet I am not the only one. The game has slipped into a state where the so called diablo tactics created a sense of paranoia that the whole thing swung the other way where its programmed that the AI of the game is able to switch and evolve, regardless of AI manager ability or AI player stats, and it basically cheats in order that no matter what tactic the human employs the AI is able to counter it after 6 games or so. Shame on you SI. I feal like I have been robbed for my maoney for the last two purchases. You won't be getting my money for FM2009.

i don't see your point the game is hard you have to get the right players the right tactics and the right training,players miss all the time it depends of there skills like finishing.the game is like real life teams control games in real life but end up losing you can batter a team in real life interms of making them look **** and still lose as it only takes one shot and one attack on goal for the other team to score.plus the 424 thing of course there bound to score with 4 up front against 2 center backs.

knap
08-09-2008, 23:51
Good post Sven

The easy answer is for those that say its your tactics, is to make the "magic" tactics available for all to try and see the issues go away.

With regard to AI cracking tactics, I actually took Oxford from BSP to Prem Title in 6 seasons just using 1 tactic as a test (no tweaking), the tactic is available but it is not "magic".

Flek
08-09-2008, 23:54
i think wwwfan just likes to be right and doesn't admit to be wrong... from my own experience I played this game very deeply and I found out It is really easy apart from the match AI biased thing... AI will always score if you are 1-0 with the stupidiest opurtunity and no wwwfan the team wasn't tired or with the moral down indeed they had a superb moral and were with more stamina than the opposition... plus even if the AI player is injured and with 40% stamina he will score! The game is very easy a basic 442 alows you to win it easily you just need to tweak the sliders. I never used the opposition instructions I just noted my team would be worst positioned on the field.

Sliders are stupid, they should be replaced by a box selection...

wwfan
09-09-2008, 00:35
This is beginning to hurt now.

The only person who is making an assumption that one slider notch makes a difference is the OP. If you are thinking like that then there is no wonder you are struggling. There will be fundamental structural flaws in your tactic if you are constantly seeing the scenario you describe. That some of these flaws still allow you to dominate possession and generate high shot counts is down to an ME weakness that I have already detailed in the thread. That type of dominance will win you a lot of matches, but it will also generate weird looking results. If you continue to play in a manner that exploits this weakness, you will continue going round and round the same frustrating routines. If, however, you sit down and think:

How would I play against a team that has parked the bus in real life?

What would I do to protect a narrow lead with 15 mins to go in real life?

How would I play a closely matched team at home and away in real life?

How would I play a much better team away in real life?

.. and then designed a set of tactics with this in mind you would see FM08 in a whole new light.

There is no such thing as a magic tactic, although knap's version of kimz is probably the best plug and play there is. FM is not about designing a super tactic and letting it play. It is a management simulation. If you ask yourself the above questions and design a set of tactics to deal with each scenario you will be managing the team. There are an awful lot of people who do this and get a huge amount of enjoyment at playing FM.

Alekos
09-09-2008, 01:05
This is beginning to hurt now.

The only person who is making an assumption that one slider notch makes a difference is the OP. If you are thinking like that then there is no wonder you are struggling. There will be fundamental structural flaws in your tactic if you are constantly seeing the scenario you describe. That some of these flaws still allow you to dominate possession and generate high shot counts is down to an ME weakness that I have already detailed in the thread. That type of dominance will win you a lot of matches, but it will also generate weird looking results. If you continue to play in a manner that exploits this weakness, you will continue going round and round the same frustrating routines. If, however, you sit down and think:

How would I play against a team that has parked the bus in real life?

What would I do to protect a narrow lead with 15 mins to go in real life?

How would I play a closely matched team at home and away in real life?

How would I play a much better team away in real life?

.. and then designed a set of tactics with this in mind you would see FM08 in a whole new light.

There is no such thing as a magic tactic, although knap's version of kimz is probably the best plug and play there is. FM is not about designing a super tactic and letting it play. It is a management simulation. If you ask yourself the above questions and design a set of tactics to deal with each scenario you will be managing the team. There are an awful lot of people who do this and get a huge amount of enjoyment at playing FM.

That's why FM series are the best football manager sims..It's all about tactics and reallity..I totally agree with you mate..When something used to go wrong I tried to think what I would do if I was a real life manager..And the most times this helped A LOT!
It's not like make a tactic and you will everyone..You need to think, search, try different things like you would do in real life, be patient and the results will come at the end of the day...
If you could win every single game, (well some people play this game and their only enjoyment is to WIN WIN WIN), then there would be no interest at all...
I enjoy the game even if I lose because this makes me think what I did wrong and my team for example lost from a very bad team and in the next match I try not to do the same mistakes or try to improve something etc..
That is the whole feeling of this game which makes it special and best of all..

Nomis07
09-09-2008, 07:29
One final reponse to knap , these "magic" tactics you describe are freely available in the tactics and training forum, the only problem is that you will have to follow instructions to create the tactic yourself rather than just download it. :rolleyes:

I officially retire from this thread, it's just pathetic tbh. Some people just can't/don't want to be helped.

hayta
09-09-2008, 09:16
this really became a ****ing contest, which is sad...

it shouldn't have been so difficult to understand the moaners' complaints from a point of view which does not carry "you pathetic losers, you moan cause you can't win" in it...

sven, this time thoroughly explained his points of complaints which i totally agree. the "misfortunes" which cannot be explained by pure tactics and real life resemblance are the main focus here.

a superior team with superior players should not, at least, suffer even with mediocre tactics... they would be ok to lose sometimes, not win at the expected margins that the odds-against show, alright. but a team who is the major candidate for championship in pre-season should not avoid relegation, right?

ok, chelsea has been a terrible example, thanx to roman but do you think a very bad manager can pull chelsea down to relegation line in the premiership if roman let him? i mean, still playing the players in their correct positions but not giving the perfect team and individual instructions?

i don't quite think so. if it was so, both in real life and in the game, what good would it be to make transfers all the time while you can perfect your tactics? that what AI does in the game.

good teams which have good players may not always win, that's a fact. it happened in euro2004, we all seen it (then what did greece do in euro2008?). or porto's success collapsed and did not continue after certain departures etc. but getting your team improved player-wise all the time and having a "reasonable" tactic should be "almost enough" to secure somethings.

besides, the AI should battle with AI as good as it battles with me if possible.

knap
09-09-2008, 09:26
the tactic is available but it is NOT "magic".

Mitja
09-09-2008, 09:30
some people maybe, don't want to be helped. FM has became too scientific for many of us. it feels like it was made for AI vs. AI, sometimes. common football knowledge is far from enough to be succesfull at FM, which I think is a shame and will have a negative effect on this seires. it's not all about "AI scored with just one chance in 96th minute" thing.

thanks to the guys like wwfan and isuckatfm and other's, we are starting to understand all of the components and it's correlation here!!

chopper99
09-09-2008, 09:57
this really became a ****ing contest, which is sad...

But getting your team improved player-wise all the time and having a "reasonable" tactic should be "almost enough" to secure somethings.

But this is what you need to do. Don't get me wrong, there are problems in the game and it can always improve, but the fact is that you can build a balanced tactic and simply improve it by buying better players. I never tweak tactics before every game. I have one tactic which I'll spend a season perfecting by watching full matches or key highlights. And that's it, after that I concentrate on all the other parts of the game that people forget about, and that are just as important; i.e training, media interaction, team talks, tutoring, moral, opposition instructions etc. Tactics are mostly what's to blame when people are struggling, but they are not the only thing that can cause problems.

I found a way of playing the game so that you only need to improve your squad to become better. It's not instant, there are few instant success tactics in FM, but if you really want someone to spell the whole thing out for you then read my thread that I wrote a while ago:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=26963

It was written mainly for lower league teams but the theories work just as well with top level teams. Plenty of people have improved the way they've played the game and had better success after following that thread, which again proves that most problems are down to the way people play the game. You don't even need to use the tactic I posted a link to, the rest of the info will help improve success rates even without changing tactics too much. However, a poor tactic cannot be made successful just be concentrating on other parts of the game more, if your tactic was never good enough to start with then you'll still have trouble. You need a simple, balanced tactic.

hayta
09-09-2008, 10:25
But this is what you need to do. Don't get me wrong, there are problems in the game and it can always improve, but the fact is that you can build a balanced tactic and simply improve it by buying better players. I never tweak tactics before every game. I have one tactic which I'll spend a season perfecting by watching full matches or key highlights. And that's it, after that I concentrate on all the other parts of the game that people forget about, and that are just as important; i.e training, media interaction, team talks, tutoring, moral, opposition instructions etc. Tactics are mostly what's to blame when people are struggling, but they are not the only thing that can cause problems.

I found a way of playing the game so that you only need to improve your squad to become better. It's not instant, there are few instant success tactics in FM, but if you really want someone to spell the whole thing out for you then read my thread that I wrote a while ago:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=26963

It was written mainly for lower league teams but the theories work just as well with top level teams. Plenty of people have improved the way they've played the game and had better success after following that thread, which again proves that most problems are down to the way people play the game. You don't even need to use the tactic I posted a link to, the rest of the info will help improve success rates even without changing tactics too much. However, a poor tactic cannot be made successful just be concentrating on other parts of the game more, if your tactic was never good enough to start with then you'll still have trouble. You need a simple, balanced tactic.

i really feel like crying right now
i feel helpless and impotent in telling what i am thinking
sad, so sad for me...

i had games with weak squads, started from blue square n/s... i had a game with karlsruhe, took them to 1.bundesliga and went to uefa in their first season in 1.bundesliga... i really DID things. set a REASONABLE tactic and improved my squad by buying players where the tactic needed, where my assistant manager suggested me to etc.

i REALLY did many right things, things that everybody keeps on repeating here and there.

but none of them stopped the AI midfielder to score a 40 yarder on the 95th minute, a scorcher which was the only single shot on goal on their behalf, while my keeper on the goal whose CA is 170ish was gazing amazedly :)

i really am annoyed with myself cause i keep on repeating myself.

AI's behaviour against humans and other AI clubs differ very much.
human clubs are unlucky too many times
AI clubs are lucky too many times
etc... these are not nice and hope they do not occur in 09...

and yes, i always tutor the youngsters with player they have similarities with. i have 6 training regimes for the main squad and 2 for youngsters. i try and buy the best coaches and assign them regimes one by one according to their properties. i check my players stats and praise them every once in a while. i become bossy to their first team requests sometimes but leanient at times. i reply to opponent managers the way my players would like me to. i often hear "the half time team walk has been praised by players" in the news items. whenever the opposition plays with a single striker formation i cancel "man mark" option of the dc with lower marking property and give him zonal. usually close down and tight mark the wingers with my players playing on the sides. sometimes man mark opponent's playmaker with my defensive midfielder.

but still, in my penalty area full of players, a tiny toon scores a header between my towering dc's which are high on anticipation, positioning, tackling, heading and jumping...

i did not prefer to give any details up to now, cause as i said, i played around 40-50 seasons so far if i am not wrong in fm08. and after a while you stop doing the rituals and try different things. this and that. there are things that i can not, and probably will not, find a solution to, which i think are the mistakes of the game. and i am telling those. if people can still say "you must tweak your tactics" then i have nothing more to say, they are definitely missing the whole point of this discussion.

chopper99
09-09-2008, 10:36
i really feel like crying right now


but none of them stopped the AI midfielder to score a 40 yarder on the 95th minute, a scorcher which was the only single shot on goal on their behalf, while my keeper on the goal whose CA is 170ish was gazing amazedly :)

i really am annoyed with myself cause i keep on repeating myself.

if people can still say "you must tweak your tactics" then i have nothing more to say, they are definitely missing the whole point of this discussion.

If a player with low shooting ability is scoring 40 yarders against you then you're obviously not closing this player down. Even a crap player, if given free reign to shoot whenever they want, will get one right eventually. I'm sorry, this is me again saying that this is down to your tactics, but that's because it is. And I say this for two reasons:

1 - This doesn't happen to me and it doesn't happen to plenty of other people I know who play this game. It may happen very, very rarely but that's fine with me as these things happen.

2 - I've known people complain about the exact same problems in the tactics forum only to have someone like wwfan, isuckatfm, ched or another of the useful posters help them out and help them improve their tactical settings to combat these problems. I've actually seen people overcome these problems by taking on the advice given to them and implementing it.

So for the two reasons above I stand firm in my opinion that a lot of the problems brought up in this thread are entirely down to something the user is or isn't doing correctly. I agree that it's too difficult to be able to tell why something is or isn't working, but that's a topic for another thread and something that will hopefully be improved in '09 with the introduction of more useful ass men. But the fact remains that these problems, no matter how difficult to identify and overcome, are down to something your doing and can for the most part be solved by doing something else.

turbinator
09-09-2008, 10:37
after watching the sigames video on youtube i can honestly say this game looks amazing, but my main concern is that is going to need at least a duo core, 2 gb system to run this game, which i havent got..has the SPECS been releases yet. cant see them anywhere, and the game itself there is loads to do i cant help thinking that maybe just maybe there is TOO much to be doing on this game..

Mitja
09-09-2008, 12:10
why don't we have a possibillity to see how AI makes their tactical set up? it would solve almost all our problems and we wouldn't have to read hundreds of pages in T&TT forum, to figure out what for example, mentality in conection with passing style meens. hmmm...

chopper99
09-09-2008, 12:19
why don't we have a possibillity to see how AI makes their tactical set up? it would solve almost all our problems and we wouldn't have to read hundreds of pages in T&TT forum, to figure out what for example, mentality in conection with passing style meens. hmmm...

Because the game would then lose a lot of its challenge, and it's that challenge that keeps countless people playing and buying the game. With total transparency you would never need to learn the game yourself and it would become very boring very quickly. The AI needs to provide a decent challenge to the user to keep the game interesting.

Millie
09-09-2008, 12:24
this really became a ****ing contest, which is sad...

it shouldn't have been so difficult to understand the moaners' complaints from a point of view which does not carry "you pathetic losers, you moan cause you can't win" in it...
Nobody has said that. Only those who wish to criticise the game in this thread have refused to see the other side of the argument so far. Just because you don't get the answer you want doesn't mean people aren't trying to help. Re-read what wwfan has said after his tongue in cheek comments about "it's you tactics" please.

Mitja
09-09-2008, 12:36
Because the game would then lose a lot of its challenge, and it's that challenge that keeps countless people playing and buying the game. With total transparency you would never need to learn the game yourself and it would become very boring very quickly. The AI needs to provide a decent challenge to the user to keep the game interesting.

I wasn't thinking about that you'd be able to check how AI's playing at any time, just some basic principles. having in mind that Ai doesn't use fancy formations or any other cheat, it's fair to say that even a poor AI manager is better than most humans, imho. and that's a good thing, it makes the game harder.... there was a very interesting thread written by Abramovich a few years ago about how AI was setting their tactics.

sven78
09-09-2008, 12:42
This is beginning to hurt now.

The only person who is making an assumption that one slider notch makes a difference is the OP. If you are thinking like that then there is no wonder you are struggling. There will be fundamental structural flaws in your tactic if you are constantly seeing the scenario you describe. That some of these flaws still allow you to dominate possession and generate high shot counts is down to an ME weakness that I have already detailed in the thread. That type of dominance will win you a lot of matches, but it will also generate weird looking results. If you continue to play in a manner that exploits this weakness, you will continue going round and round the same frustrating routines. If, however, you sit down and think:

How would I play against a team that has parked the bus in real life?

What would I do to protect a narrow lead with 15 mins to go in real life?

How would I play a closely matched team at home and away in real life?

How would I play a much better team away in real life?

.. and then designed a set of tactics with this in mind you would see FM08 in a whole new light.

There is no such thing as a magic tactic, although knap's version of kimz is probably the best plug and play there is. FM is not about designing a super tactic and letting it play. It is a management simulation. If you ask yourself the above questions and design a set of tactics to deal with each scenario you will be managing the team. There are an awful lot of people who do this and get a huge amount of enjoyment at playing FM.

WWFan I appreciate your comments and I don't want to turn this into a thread where I pick up on the comments you make and you pick up on comments I make but one point which I will make from the above actually helps me explain my ultimate frustration with the game.

If I have created a tactic which keeps good possession and creates lots of chances (I don't count 30yd shots as a chance, I am talking about good passing around the box with consistently double figure chances from maybe 12 yards and closer) then exactly what is it that prevents my 17+ finisher from finishing atleast 1 of these. If morale is high, fitness high then I honestly don't know what "fundamental structural flaw" there is. Unfortunately its comments like this that make me, and possibly others, think that other things are at work.

Honestly if I wasn't creating chances or was loads of goals leaking goals, I have a knowledge of football so would have an idea what to do but when I a dominate possession, create 15+ clear chances each game and I continually get beat by very late winners or draw to very late equalisers then you have to admit that the game is overly harsh on the human player for not understanding the correlation of the sliders. I mean my striker not finishing is not to do with any of the defensive sliders so it is obviously the attacking ones i.e creative freedom etc. My striker is described as finishing with power so I tried low creative freedom in the hope that he would simply do what was natural to him i.e fire in powerful shots. I wasn't happy with his finishing ability so set creative freedom higher on the scale assuming that it gave him more license to find the net. Results of his finishing stayed the same regardless. Hopefully this example shows you that I do think about it and don't just complain for the sake of it but honestly my frustrations just got the better of me having put the game down for abit, hence the thread kicking off.

This thread has probably ran its course so to finish off then this is my final thought.

My biggest gripe is not winning the games that stats and all round play should be rewarded with. I can accept defeat if I get out played, no problem (Champs League example from previous post). What I cant accept is dominating possession game after game, creating hatfuls of chances game after game and continually coming away with nothing. This simply does not happen IRL and I can't accept something in my tactic is wrong or I wouldn't keep possession or create chances. Anyone who says this happens is deluded. Before everyone replies offering up 1 off games when it has happened then I am aware of this happening IRL once or twice in a season.........what I am talking about is runs of 7 and 8 games, followed by a couple of wins and then another 7 or 8 games.

Taking this further then, if for arguments sake I accept its my tactics that are to blame, then how can the AI teams, not 1 team.......all teams, consistently be able to break late in the game and score with there one chance. For me this is where the game is not simulating real life football as many people wildly claim it does. If you are dominating the game, creating chances then it is obvious your opponents will tire so how is it that the AI players never fatigue like the human players, how come the AI player can switch to a 4-2-4 tactic with players with low adaptability stats but somehow click into gear immediately and change the way they are playing despite having been pushed back and forced to defend for the previous 80mins. Honestly sometimes I found myself laughing at what unfolds when the AI manged teams switched to 4-2-4. I could probably start a new thread just on the 4-2-4 thing but I won't. My biggest problem with it is that the AI gets the advantage of it every single time to there advantage not detrement. All the threads I read are how to defend against it or how to protect a lead from it...................this is absloute nonsense. Why should you have to. Facts are facts if a team is getting beat at Old Trafford 1-0 they would never switch to 4-2-4 with 10mins to go because they would get an absloute thumping 9.9999 times out of 10. Honestly wouldn't happen. Also every team does it. Not one tactical genius AI manager.......every single one without fail. I have now got the impression that it was put in the game for certain situations however it is now used far to commonly by the AI with some ridiculous results. Maybe its SI's own diablo tactic.............thats a joke by the way.

Anyway hopefully people who enjoy the game and dislike us "whingers" may get some appreciation that my frustrations are not just put on here for the sake of moaning. I do genuingly have issues with the game that I don't understand and logic tells me that something is wrong. I have used tactical bibles etc and that is how I have managed to create tactics which have won me leagues but none in my case have eradicated the little things which continually ruin season after season for me.

Thanks all for your contributions to the thread........I admit my opening post was a touch stinging but I like to read peoples thoughts and regardless if they agree or diagree with me they are your thoughts. See you in FM2009............of course I will still try it out.

hayta
09-09-2008, 12:51
i give up on this topic
thanx and good luck to you all people..

isuckatfm
09-09-2008, 12:52
Here's my take on it:-

For hayta, knap and similar posters of the past the issue is not about tactics. The issue is about micro events that appear to them to be heavily biased towards the AI:-

- a player with crap attributes scores a long range screamer
- their top class striker misses sitter after sitter yet the crappy AI striker scores with his only chance of the game
- AI mini me striker beats their 'beast in the air' centre back to head home and win the match
- AI striker with lower anticipation, acceleration, pace, determination, morale, condition and any other attribute you can consider reacts quicker to a through ball to slot home an equaliser in the 90th minute
- AI players react quicker to rebounds despite attribute differentials and score from said rebounds
- quality Human managed defender makes poor backpass under limited pressure which AI striker runs onto and scores

etc., etc.

At the root of this is posters like hayta see these micro events go against them far more often than they see them go for them. This has brought them to the conclusion that there is an in built AI bias towards what I term a successful event. Thus there is absolutely no amount of posting of evidence or otherwise that will convince them that this is not the case. The SI designers have always stated that the match engine does not differentiate between Human and AI managers, it just crunches the numbers and generates an output. But posters like hayta see in their games a consistency in the micro events that suggests to them this is not the case.

I see their point of view and understand the frustration but fundamentally it comes down to whether or not you believe the afore mentioned statement

The match engine does not differentiate between Human and AI managers

If your experience of this is that this statement is false then there is nothing anyone here can do to convince you otherwise. I say this from experience of a thread documenting evidence of this over at FM-Britain

http://www.fm-britain.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=7738

The poster showed many screenshots of his team dominating and not winning, the AI getting the rub of the green, etc. all to show that the game had an in built mechanism that prevented him from overachieving. In said thread a poster by the name of SI Forums Rock!!! posted identical types of evidence showing the very things the thread starter documented as 'dodgy and going for the AI consistently' actually happening in favour of the human manager.

http://www.fm-britain.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=7738&st=550

Now despite this the thread starter is still convinced that the game is out to get him, that it is him against the AI and that by hook or by crook the game will 'beat him'. He speaks of winning titles and being successful yet the same old things keep on happening. He still holds true to that conclusion

http://www.fm-britain.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=8656

and I honestly believe that nothing will ever convince him that there is no AI bias at work.

Don't get me wrong I see these things happen to me aswell but the game is attempting to simulate football which is not always deterministic. Usually the cream will rise to the top (which has been my experience on 08) but there will be matches where things just don't go your way. If the engine was work on the basis of only a given set of attributes can do a certain thing it would become horribly repetitive and predictable.

- a crap striker can finish a one on one
- a midfielder with crap passing attributes can occassionally hit that perfect through ball
- a generally poor keeper can have a good day

If you see these things happen regularly in your game against you then it isn't really 100% explainable by 'it's your tactics'. But the simple fact remains that if you aren't willing to accept this statement (again)

The match engine does not differentiate between Human and AI managers

you will never get enjoyment from the game and you will always be convinced that something suspect is going on under the hood. No amount of posting by others will convince you otherwise.

chopper99
09-09-2008, 12:55
I wasn't thinking about that you'd be able to check how AI's playing at any time, just some basic principles. having in mind that Ai doesn't use fancy formations or any other cheat, it's fair to say that even a poor AI manager is better than most humans, imho. and that's a good thing, it makes the game harder.... there was a very interesting thread written by Abramovich a few years ago about how AI was setting their tactics.

I remember a thread like this from '07 which was very interesting. The guy who wrote it had edited the database to make someone like Alex Fergison his assistant manager and then gone on holiday so he could somehow check the tactical settings that SAF was using when controlling his team.

There were some very interesting results, especially when it came to free roles (I think about 6 players in the team had free roles or something).

But now in the game the best way to get an idea of how the AI managers are playing is to watch extended highlights or full games. This is pretty realistic, as the real life equivalent of being able to see the AI managers tactical settings would be for a manger to bug another managers office, training ground and dressing room.

Is it more fun for it to be more realistic? For me yes, but of course for others the answer will be no.

MrPompey
09-09-2008, 13:38
AI Cracking tactics. Didn't Man City with a Manager named after your names sake Sven play an interesting formation which earned them good results up until Dec 07 in the Premier. From Jan 2008 onwards ALL premiership clubs found them out playing tactics to counter it. Man City's winning spree came to an end and they struggled to find a top league position that they enjoyed earlier.

It happens in real life also. If you think FM08 is frustrating how did you feel at half time watching the England game on Saturday. Playing this game on FM08 would you also have expected a better result at half time, I expect so! I think sometimes football is frustrating in real life and much of this is incorporated into the match engine. There are few easy win matches anymore.

Its only right Sven has opportunity to detail his frustration and expect a logical response, some of the replies are bit disheartening. Think grey instead of black and white all the time

I think what would help is if we see more explanation behind the interaction of formations and tactic opporuinuties. This is best done in 2 ways, a) for the average gamer who is happy with making a change, expecting some change on the pitch but not worried about what happens under the hood. Many gamers play FM this b) for the enthusiasts there needs to be much more detail behind the tactics and combinations explained. No-one is expecting to find a win all tactic, well I hope not, but an understanding of how the tactics interact and then how to select / buy / find players that fit. Alternatively study the players you have and select tactics with tweaks and formations that best suit the players. I do wonder if sometimes the former approach is taken when perhaps it should be the latter? With a better understanding of the principles I think frustrating for some would be reduced

Goofus
09-09-2008, 13:42
As usual, a great response from isuckatfm.

And to the OP, it's great you have not abandoned the thread and have actually came back to listen to our advice, unlike other 'moaners'(no offence Moaner) who make a thread and then disappear faster than Ronaldo with 2 transsexuals.

I would love to see this thread continue. Post your views, don't give up on this thread.

rashidi1
09-09-2008, 13:54
Sven, I don't know if this will help you, but this is what I've noticed. In different leagues within the same country you sometimes need to adapt. I play different in lower leagues, usually more direct/high tempo and I try to overpower them with pace. When I get promoted I usually find that my squad gets whipped unless I make a fundamental change to my team. I still maintain the same tactic. Against better teams I have one style of playing and against weaker teams I have another. My tactic stays the same I just make small changes to tempo/defensive line and width.

You are on the right track with getting high possession stats which is generally the right idea, sometimes you need a bit more variety in styles of attack up front to make that extra difference. Its not uncommon to find the best managers having one base tactic which has at least 5 ways to score. I could score with a direct style of attack down one flank, one touch passing through the middle, direct punt to a hold up man who lays it off to a striker with high acceleration and off the ball. Sometimes if you find that you have a lot of possession and find that you can't break them down, its good to ease up and hit them on the counter.

All these are possible with one tactic. The biggest challenge is knowing how to interpret the 2d action, and the biggest tool to have in your arsenal is Opposition Instructions and having a split view.

This discussion should really move to the Training and tactics forum where its more suited. However we do not condone threads that say the AI cheats, cos it can't.

rashidi1
09-09-2008, 13:55
And goofus..please don't abuse Ronaldo..whichever one he may be..cheers

Goofus
09-09-2008, 14:06
Sorry, probably went a bit overboard there.
Just taking the mickey out of him, however,no ill-will intended.

And yes, I too am getting high possession stats, but my finishing sometimes is dire.

hayta
09-09-2008, 14:12
i am still around ;) just crying with my condemned career down the corner... please don't touch me...

Goofus
09-09-2008, 14:15
There's no need to overreact, and i have no intention of touching you. I'm thousands of miles away anyway.

hayta
09-09-2008, 14:19
once you imply someone had fled the topic then you make them overreact... ;)

i only did not see further discussion as unnecessary, cause everyone was repeating themselves, i decided not to write anything else, if you don't mind?

Goofus
09-09-2008, 14:31
Wasn't the OP the Sven dude?

MrPompey
09-09-2008, 16:03
JUP, Sven was the OP, maybe he'll retirn sometime soon .......

sven78
09-09-2008, 16:31
JUP, Sven was the OP, maybe he'll retirn sometime soon .......

I' m back.

To pick up on a valid point you made about the England v Andorra game. As I said in my post this does happen I accept this, poorer teams can frustrate so called superior teams on occasions........the point I was making was slightly different. Andorra stifled England, didn't let them play and got men behind the ball. What I experienced was nothing like this. I wasn't getting stifled. I was playing my version of what could be described as a 4-2-4 or an attacking 4-3-3 and continually cutting through the opponents. Had I been stifled and not been creating chances I would have known and identified this as an obvious problem, however as I was creating chances and retaining possession I just became totally at a loss as to how to rectify it.

Thanks for the post Rashidi. Some interesting points. I have an Anderlecht game running at the mo. Only a few games in. Will have another bash taking on board some of your comments / observations.

drambuie2
10-09-2008, 16:38
Just reading through this thread with some interest. Must admit i'm one person who has variously expressed
annoyance/frustrations etc much the same as the OP at times.

I still get to the point in my games - and yes i'm still playing it to my annoyance at times ;) - that I wonder how a crappy midfielder with 8 tackling and
10 passing can string together 38 out of 40 passes, make 5 of 5 tackles against my far superior players. Or a goalie
who concedes 2 goals per game on average suddenly gets an 8 rating and seems to have 6 arms. Or a bottom of the league
team with poor to very poor morale and no wins for ages pulls out a world beating performance against me who has players with
high ratings, superb morale etc. Not once or twice but seemingly much too often for comfort/believability. I rant and rage -
I really do understand football - I have watched it for 30 years yet this knowledge hardly translates to the game.

But ... there doesn't really seem to be a conspiracy; faults and problems sure (4-2-4 too effective etc), but no bias. To me almost all of the frustration is the 'hidden' nature of the
engine and sliders as has been said many times. I would like to see more on why this happens - why certain formations work/don't work, how those poorer
players are doing what they do. Watching the engine at times isn't a solution for me as I want to play through seasons pretty fast.

What I would like is simpler controls - tell my fullbacks to press on and overlap - not confusing sliders. Tell my players to keep the damn ball on the floor - not some combination of
hard to fathom sliders that still ends up with balls lumped up the pitch to my short arse forward. (Hmm maybe England managers have sliders too considering
the useless direct passing they always seem to try). Guess though these things will not come now as the engine gets more complex.

However I will add that as mentioned above I get more than my fair share of these 'AI fixed' issues! I score in 1 chance and the AI has 10 at times. I play teams
off the park when I shouldn't. My goalie suddenly plays a blinder and my striker suddenly hits a hot run of form. Football irl isn't as 'random' as FM seems to be at times
but certainly isn't a simple matter of x is better than y so x wins. Us whingers do tend to ignore the rub of the green when we get it!

Despite my whinging i'll almost certainly buy the new one.

Moaner
18-09-2008, 10:30
As usual, a great response from isuckatfm.

And to the OP, it's great you have not abandoned the thread and have actually came back to listen to our advice, unlike other 'moaners'(no offence Moaner) who make a thread and then disappear faster than Ronaldo with 2 transsexuals.

I would love to see this thread continue. Post your views, don't give up on this thread.

none taken. and im still around, don't you worry. my laptops gone tits up. i lost all my FM stuff- the lot.