ME: Which movements will be more clear in 3-D?

Note: Please do not use this thread to discuss whether or not 3-D should be included in FM'09; clearly it will be, and there have been plenty of discussions about it elsewhere. I will be reporting all posts which cross that line.

I was thinking a few days ago, before the FM'09 announcement, of posting about on-pitch movements which I spot while watching the 2-D matches with an eye for detail, as I was doing while writing Blade - and part of my point in writing that was to help describe those movements in a way that might help the average reader to spot more in their own game.

So this thread is for discussion of which movements you think may have been unclear / hard to represent in the 2-D representation of the match engine (FM'05-FM'08), which you expect will be much easier for the average user to spot and understand in FM'09's 3-D representation of the match engine.

Specifically, I mean things that you see in the 2-D representation which do not have a commentary line, but your mind jumps to a "reasonable interpretation" of the event.

I'll start the discussion with a half-dozen, please jump in with your own!

Striker held back - "Why didn't my 19 Pace striker outrun the opposition's 10 Pace defender?!?" I suspect that we'll see that often the defender is able to get a shoulder out in front and use an extended arm, or perhaps a surrpetitious shirt tug, to hold the striker down to his pace. I've seen a number of instances in 2-D which I think equate to this, and have even hollered for the call .. but since the commentary doesn't mention it,

Striker fell down - "Why did my striker give up on that? He's faster than that defender!" The striker's dot comes to a complete stop while chasing a ball. I suspect that we'll see that the striker has fallen down, perhaps after some arm jostling or a shirt tug - personally, I imagine him rolling over to face the ref, arms spread wide with "Where's the foul" clearly written on his face .. but he might also be writhing on ground in supposed agony.

Missed hook-slide - "Why did my defender stop, letting the striker through one-on-one?" The times I've seen this, the defender looks like he's coming in on an angle, the striker has or is about to receive the ball, and the defender jumps forward a little bit before coming to a complete stop. The striker, essentially unmolested, continues on. I figure its either the inverse of "Striker fell down" with the striker's strength holding the defender off, or the defender attempting a hook slide that fails to connect with the ball.

Bouncing ball leads to short-range miss - "How the heck did my striker miss from four yards?!?!" - I suspect we're going to see that those are first-time efforts on a bouncing ball, that strike off the top of the boot, shin, or knee. I think casual players, especially, tend to imagine every chance as a perfect opportunity, with all things in perfect alignment .. when in reality, most chances in both FM and IRL are half-chances with a number of things going wrong, and the player heroically trying to correct for them.

Scuffed shots - "My world-class striker should have scored from eighteen yards!" - I think we're going to be able to see a lot more detail about how and why shots are scuffed. Again, I often imagine the player shaking his head in disgust as he turns away, maybe even before the keeper picks it up.

Defender did enough to put him off - This sort of thing is in the commentary file but I never see it commented on. I do see a lot of chances taken with a defender in close proximity, and I imagine some arm-to-arm / torso-to-torso jostling going on, with the result that the shot doesn't come off perfectly.

i think 3-D should not of been included because.....

obviously im joking. you have got a very good point here but im afraid the answer is "we'll have to wait and see". as i said before i can't see how they can possibly pull this off, relativly problem-free, but i will be the first to applaud them if they (which i sincerly hope they do)

anyways....my input.

Those High And Wide ShotsYou know the shots, when your terrificaly shocking midfielder thinks he's Gerrard and hit and hopes from 30 yards? Well, the current 2-D engine kind of exagerates the "over and wide-ness" of such shots so they look really, really bad. I'm looking forward to seeing such shots in 3D (if they are includuded)

Defender Sort Of Walks The Ball Over The TouchlineIn the current 2-D engine, your full back will sometimes walk up and tap the ball over the touchline for a cornor when its rolling out anyway (from the opposistion). I am really looking forward to seeing this happen in 3D because at the minute, it looks almost unexplainable but of course, there is always a method behind (SI's) madness. Peace out.

Do you really think the animation will be good enough to show a shirt pull or even a scuffed shot?

I wouldn't hold too much hope on it being a lot more obvious as to what occurs on the pitch.....obvioulsy you can see things like how a penalty was won and and what happened in a goal mouth scramble, but the detailed animation you talk of will probably come in future games (I could be completely wrong of course )

I don't think the 3D animation will be good enough to show what your suggesting.

Good points, gentlemen; perhaps I should have said "hope will be easier to spot" instead of "expect".

Id be surprised if they had that many animations in this game. I think the next few will be where we see the real developments.

Do you really think the animation will be good enough to show a shirt pull or even a scuffed shot?

)

it blinking better be otherwise i will start a whole new thread but one-thousand times worse:mad:

it blinking better be otherwise i will start a whole new thread but one-thousand times worse:mad:

It couldn't get much worse

The shirt pulling would be a tough one

Not even FIFA has that yet!

Positioning for headers - "How did my Jumping 19 defender get beaten to the ball by their Jumping 12 striker?" .. Uncalled fouls, elbows on top of shoulders, armpits on top of shoulders, positioning, and timing of leap all come into play in winning a header .. but the 2D representation can only show us two flat circles. I suspect that's going to be much much easier to spot and understand in 3D.

Striker held back - "Why didn't my 19 Pace striker outrun the opposition's 10 Pace defender?!?" I suspect that we'll see that often the defender is able to get a shoulder out in front and use an extended arm, or perhaps a surrpetitious shirt tug, to hold the striker down to his pace. I've seen a number of instances in 2-D which I think equate to this, and have even hollered for the call .. but since the commentary doesn't mention it,

The reverse of that

Slow striker outruns fast defender

Despite often screaming in disgust at this I've convinced myself (some would say rather naively ) that it has to do with body mechanics. So the striker is half towards the goal but the defender is more flat footed when the ball gets played. Thus the defender has to shift his body weight by a larger rotation, turn and push off to accelerate while the striker has already zoomed past.

Same explanation for why one player reacts to a rebound faster than the other.

Goals 'through' the keeper

It looks like the little dot is doing nothing but maybe the shot is low and he can't adjust his feet in time to get to it. Or it was high and he stuck out a hand but the power of the shot meant his reactions were too slow.

Jumping 10 beats Jumping 20 to head a goal

Ignoring the effect of other attributes the 3D will show up the flight of the ball and if in fact the short arse ghosted in front of the defender to head home.

The Spinning Top

So instead of the player 'rotating' we'll actually seem move the ball from one foot to the next as he looks for a pass, or shifting the ball a bit while keeping it close.

The Weaker Foot

It will add to the explanation for why a 'top class striker' can't hit a barn door, why a defender won't make a tackle as well as the overall effect of what the related OI has on defender positioning. Actually thinking of that makes me realise what a challenge it is as I assume things happening often on faith whereas now if it doesn't explicitly show it happening it might just annoy me more

Incidentally I have yet to play a next gen football game. Do they go into that level of detail, (for example a miscued shot or a ball striking a shin)?

Posting those kind of highlights to me how good faith and imagination (or as I said earlier naive optimism depending on your viewpoint)can make you see something as intended rather than as a problem with the match engine.

The shirt pulling would be a tough one

Not even FIFA has that yet!

Really? Haven't played FIFA for a while, so I wouldn't know, but I know PES has it

I can't wait to see stepovers.

Really? Haven't played FIFA for a while, so I wouldn't know, but I know PES has it

The new one does (PES), but its not released yet.

Penalty decisions.

One of the things that sprang to mind when thinking in 3D concerns those penalty decisions for which you're being asked to comment about after the match and whether it would be possible to actually have an opinion (rather than just guess it).

I agree with the above stuff.

Although animations are not included, the 3D system would be useful to claim for fouls , penalties, offsides in aftermatch conferences. I imagine moving the camera and freezing it in a replay to check if it was offside or not, maybe different journalist would also agree with me and others would still think "i am complaining for the lost match".

The new one does (PES), but its not released yet.

The old PES does too. (well the current one)

On topic: Some nice ideas here, i just hope the 3D ME has enough variation in animations to keep things from becoming stale, will be interesting to see and, if it points out what people have been suggesting here, may cause a drop in the number of "this game cheats" threads

its just occured to me that when the media ask you "do you feel the penalty decsion was correct?" you might be able to actually give an educated answer now!! before you had to decide by looking at dots walking into each other!

The old PES does too. (well the current one)

Sorry to be off topic here. I think I'm getting mixed up with the diving feature here. Thats not in the current one, is it?

Sorry to be off topic here. I think I'm getting mixed up with the diving feature here. Thats not in the current one, is it?

Both are in the current one.

Hmmm. It seems I missed an entire release of PES

I wonder if players height and strength will be reflected in the 3D engine... hope so.

Posting those kind of highlights to me how good faith and imagination (or as I said earlier naive optimism depending on your viewpoint)can make you see something as intended rather than as a problem with the match engine.

Yeah - writing "Blade" really convinced me of that, because I set myself a rule that everything the game did, even if it was a bug, had to be successfully explained to my readers as though it had happened in a real-world way! There were a couple times it was a real challenge, to be sure..

Goals 'through' the keeper

The Weaker Foot

Incidentally I have yet to play a next gen football game. Do they go into that level of detail, (for example a miscued shot or a ball striking a shin)?

A quick two minutes with FIFA'08, and I caught a ball coming off a guy's shin, a ball coming off a guy's knee, and a ball coming off a guy's pecs (a flubbed chest-trap). Though, to my disappointment, no shirt tugs, no scuffed shots, and noticeably the ball stayed on the floor much, much more than the FM ME or a RL match gives.

I wonder if players height and strength will be reflected in the 3D engine... hope so.

another major aspect im worried about- cosmetics. lets face it, past manager games which went 3D had players that looked like gremlins/zombies/dwarfs (you name it). remember LMA you had three player variations......black, white and half-caste.

Do you think the 3D version could effect the censorship rating?

For example - would a 10 year old take heed when watching a sprite getting S/O for headbutting or kicking?? Hmmm

Do you think the 3D version could effect the censorship rating?

For example - would a 10 year old take heed when watching a sprite getting S/O for headbutting or kicking?? Hmmm

I don't think the censorship rating is going to be influenced because of a little violence in game, unless it is accompanied with swearing and sexual gestures...