England national team more realistic in 2009?

In all versions of Football Manager (including its previous incarnation) the England national team have been world beaters, or thereabouts. In my previous career on Football Manager 2008 England won two world cups with a European Championship sandwiched in between. Now, I'm not saying that England couldn't do that in real life.. no wait, that's exactly what I'm saying. I think they would be content just to qualify for a major tournament, so winning three trophies in a row would be somewhat.. unrealistic.

We all know that England have some world class players. I mean, which country wouldn't wish to have Gerrard or Ferdinand? But when they get together for England duty they are a shambles of a nervous mess. The players don't mesh, and we could all discuss and debate this issue for hours, unfortunately I don't have hours, so I'll just cut to the chase.

In Football Manager 2009 there has to be a more realistic method will dealing with players. In real life you can't just buy all the best players in the world and sit back and watch them wrack up the trophies as they defeat all whom dare take to the field. The players have got to blend together, the team has got to gel and the players have to know each other's game inside out, and this is a lot more difficult in international terms as it is in club management, as you get more time coaching your players and if the players don't mesh, you can just dip into the transfer market and purchase a more suitable player, thus creating the dream ticket.

I'm not Anti-England in any way, shape or form, I'm just a guy who wants Football Manager to reflect reality. We all know that it's "just a game" and "Not reality" but I would hope that SI and the fans would like the game to be as close to reality as possible. I'm not acusing SI of being bias when it comes to their national football team, but it is a wee bit strange that England always achieve more, much more, in FM/CM than they have ever, or will ever, achieve in real life.

and by coincidence, your a scot?

To be fair, I agree with a lot of what you said, but in the interest of not being flamed, let someone of anglo descent say it :-)

RIGHT!!!!!!! SCOTS V IN-GER-LISH, LETS GO!!

haha maybe not. i think the reason england are so good on the game is because individually the players are very good (as in real life) however the game does not recognise that under any manager, from sven to fabio, they are a poor TEAM and so the FM engine recognises that all these top players combined would make a world beating team (which IRL they should...but they dont).

i just read that back and it sounded terrible...

and by coincidence, your a scot?

To be fair, I agree with a lot of what you said, but in the interest of not being flamed, let someone of anglo descent say it :-)

How astute of you, I am a Scot. How did you know?

But seriously, I've heard heard so many saying this same thing over the years, yes, even by English people. I wouldn't mind as much if England were winning things in real life... as long as it was accurate.

I feel so dirty saying that.

RIGHT!!!!!!! SCOTS V IN-GER-LISH, LETS GO!!

haha maybe not. i think the reason england are so good on the game is because individually the players are very good (as in real life) however the game does not recognise that under any manager, from sven to fabio, they are a poor TEAM and so the FM engine recognises that all these top players combined would make a world beating team (which IRL they should...but they dont).

i just read that back and it sounded terrible...

Yeah. That's what I'm saying.

I think it's about time that the game is implemented with a more realistic team ethos.

i tink its more that the players are not as good as they are hyped up to be, its all good having Barry play amazing v T&T and USA but its in big matches where good players show there talent and we saw what happend in the 1 slightly difficult match England had agast c.republic.

players like Ashley YOung, abonglahoor and many more english players are nowhere near as good as rated in FM (look at how amazing Dyer was rated just a few games back), BUT as the game has a very high following in England SI allow slightly inflated stats in my oppinon.

I'd love it to become more complex but the problem is it has to be deterministic. Looking at England for example as you said (and many others feel) part of the problem is a fear of failure (footballing issues are for another debate). The question is how exactly do you code this? Take Gerrard as an example. If any English player has been a big game player for his club in recent years and stepped up to the plate when needed it's been Gerrard (not a Liverpool supporter and don't see them week in week out so that opinion may not hold up to scrutiny). Yet for England it just doesn't seem to happen. If you ignore the tactical reasons and decide it's a pressure thing (hypothetical so not looking for a debate on how effectively England managers have utilised Gerrard) how exactly do you code that? You can't introduce a new attribute because you then have the issue of how to assign it for players who have never made an international appearance in their career. But if you use existing attributes then you get a knock on effect on his club performance.

Don't get me wrong I'm all for the game reflecting real life and evolving but the problem with football is not everything is so easily quantifiable and the accuracy of any model is governed by the variables and how you mathematically define their relationship.

As for the club effect and team gelling my opinion is pretty much the same. No one really knows why Shevchenko was less than prolific for Chelsea or why Forlan became a goal scorer in Spain or whatever example you want to use (it's easiest to use strikers as an example as their performance is easier to examine without seeing them week in week out). Or why two other foreign strikers in Berbatov and Torres have been successful in the Premiership. People speculate about adapting to a foreign culture or a different type of game or fitting into a given system. If this is the case then how are you going to quantify that. Do you build into the database a culture variable and link together historically similar cultures? Do you categorise all managers in a given country as playing in a similar style even if the manager himself was adapting his philosophies so that each league has it's own definitive style of play? Do you define players on a more refined scale with respect to their position so that a player fits a system and not just a position?

At the moment it appears to use adaptability/professionalism which is an elegant, simplistic system but it does fall down when you look at the real life examples. Shevchenko again. A Ukrainian goes to Italy and is a top performer => he gets assigned a high adaptability. Thus in game prior to his Chelsea move you could move him to any league and settling in would have a minimal effect on his performance. Should his adaptability be dropped because real life suggests he didn't adapt to England too well? Or what if there are far more complex underlying variables that aren't easily quantified? In real life player's personal lives have an impact on their performance yet if someone was to suggest this chances are they would be laughed off the forum or be told to go play FIFA Manager if they want that sort of thing.

Devil's advocate: nice in theory but not so easy to implement. But I suppose if the game is going to evolve then risks have to be taken although I could see a mountain of testing to refine a complex system like that and the likelihood of bugs would be pretty high.

isuckatfm, if the word "revolution" is going to be used for Football Manager 2009 then they have to live up to it by implementing something bold into the mix. I don't exactly know how they would implement it, or indeed devise it, if I did then I'll take that idea and create my own game, but I can't imagine that it would be that difficult. Although, that could just be my lack of knowledge with regards to programming kicking in.

In real life different players are more compatible when they are playing with certain players than with others. Could they not create a new hidden attribute that's been inbedded into the player which determines how well they play, get along and function with other players? There's already a feature in the game that makes certain players fall out with certain team-mates, couldn't this be slightly tweaked as to determine how players mesh, or not, as the case may be, on the field of play?

Using the past versions of FM as a guide, I'd hasten a guess by saying that the "grand new breath-taking revolutionary feature" (My words, not anyone else's) will be a new skin...

TurkzZ: Yeah, I'd definitely go along with that.

Hopefully this is something that will be fixed. International moralle/press/expectations I mean.

In real competitions there's always some plucky team who do much better then expected because they just don't give a damn. Similarly there's always been teams like England, Holland and Spain who are full of world beaters but they just don't gell, seem upset they're not spending their Summer in the caribbean or are so beat down by the press they go into matches head down and cave in under the first sign of pressure.

I'd love to see a team like England concede a goal and then have FM report the players are arguing on the pitch and blaming one another, while the little circles congregate in the penalty area. Hopefully to couple this half time talks could be fixed

Hopefully this is something that will be fixed. International moralle/press/expectations I mean.

In real competitions there's always some plucky team who do much better then expected because they just don't give a damn. Similarly there's always been teams like England, Holland and Spain who are full of world beaters but they just don't gell, seem upset they're not spending their Summer in the caribbean or are so beat down by the press they go into matches head down and cave in under the first sign of pressure.

I'd love to see a team like England concede a goal and then have FM report the players are arguing on the pitch and blaming one another, while the little circles congregate in the penalty area. Hopefully to couple this half time talks could be fixed

lol!

Yeah. And the commentator reporting that the home fans are booing your own fans during the game/half time/full time. Or the national press expecting so much from their team, as well dealing with the fans expectations, this in turn makes the players freeze and basically become complete nervous wrecks.

I'd also like there to be a newspaper section, where you can read up all about the latest gossip in county X and then skip to country Y.

I am personally of the opinion that players such as Lampard and Ferdinand are made to look better than they are by the players they play with at club level. At international level they are found out.

Lampard is the prime example of this, he scores loads of goals for Chelsea, yet is hopeless for England. At Chelsea all he has to do is get into the box and he knows 9 times out of 10 he will get a good cross, which if he gets to the penalty spot he will score. Makalele does the tackling (or did), and the other midfielder (of the 3 centre mids) does the passing.

For England he actually has to pass the ball (I have yet to see him hit a white shirt), he has to tackle (again I have seen my sister tackle better) and he doesn't have that gauranteed cross, in other words he has to rely on his own talent, which is no where near as high as he likes to think.

Basically I think most of the current England squad with the exceptions of Terry, Gerrard and Rooney are over-rated, and I am English.

That's a great idea Slayer! I'd love to be able to read all the transfer gossip and team news at-a-glance like you can by pressing your red button or equivalent. There should be an easy-to-use tab system where you can cycle through different leagues and clubs, or even just select certain clubs which you would like to hear information about.

I agree with the point about media pressure on an international squad/individual players/managers. Dealing with the media is possibly a bigger and more important part of international management than the matches! I think you hould be asked questions about certain players being injured, your formations and tactics, and maybe your actions could spur on or annoy certain players or managers, thus affecting their performance on the pitch slightly.

I agree that England shouldn't be so dominant, but there needs to be some sort of teamwork attributes, separate from tactics, which can be trained, and you should be able to create positive morale for your players by organising trips, events and generally getting them to understand and work well with each other on and off the pitch.

kiwityke: I agree with you, and that's what I'm always saying, that the foreigners of the premiership are making their English team mates look good, possibly better than they actually are. I remember the premiership when it was in its infancy, when the majority of players plying their trade in said league were English. And to be honest, it was just a little bit above average. Then when the money starting piling into the teams, the investment began to gather pace, the players from abroad began to sit up and take notice. Now look at things, you have guys like Ronaldo, Robinho, Fletcher () ect. playing in your top league, and as a direct result of this influx of top-rated superstars, the standard and overall quality of the league is strengthening.

Woody: Hey, thanks. And yeah, that was my general idea. The "newspaper" section would pretty much give you and offer you as much detail and information about players, teams, leagues and general gossip that real life newspapers offer. It would be a way of keeping yourself in the look, because it's all too easy for you to be totally focussed on your team and not be aware of the new superstars in town, or a new owner of a team that's causing waves.

I am sorry but I don't think that English players are soooo good IRL like in the FM(Am not saying that they are bad)..They are a bit overated and the reason might be that the developers are English..So that's why England is doing so well in every FM..

And I agree with the above post made by SlayerX..The foreigners make the difference like in every country...

So assuming that Greece won Euro 2004 IRL then all Greek players should have great stats depending on their achievement...But at the end of the day the foreigners make the difference in the domestic leagues...

I am sorry but I don't think that English players are soooo good IRL like in the FM(Am not saying that they are bad)..They are a bit overated and the reason might be that the developers are English..So that's why England is doing so well in every FM..

And I agree with the above post made by SlayerX..The foreigners make the difference like in every country...

So assuming that Greece won Euro 2004 IRL then all Greek players should have great stats depending on their achievement...But at the end of the day the foreigners make the difference in the domestic leagues...

No need to be sorry, mate, I think the majority of people will/have/do agree with you (Including many English people)

I only have one request: That the England team be more as they are in real life.

I would say the same if Scotland were world beaters on fm or if Brazil resembled a pub team.

I got scotland as world cup winner back in 1996...that time is still cm2...no harm then...also have spain as world cup winner in cm2000....and algeria as 3rd place in world cup recently in fm08......dont really mind...but...I agree they should put some realistic stats in the coming fm...

I got scotland as world cup winner back in 1996...that time is still cm2...no harm then...also have spain as world cup winner in cm2000....and algeria as 3rd place in world cup recently in fm08......dont really mind...but...I agree they should put some realistic stats in the coming fm...

What, Scotland won the world cup??

I know that it was more than a decade ago, but did CM2 focus on international teams? I don't recall.

I do remember than CM2 was my favourite game of the series, though. Well, on a par with CM4.

I would say the same if Scotland were world beaters on fm or if Brazil resembled a pub team.

Brazil are pretty much a pub team nowadays:

6 games played in 2008

3 victories

2 defeats (including a defeat vs Venezuela)

1 draw

5 goals scored

6 goals conceded

Firstly, love the newspaper idea.

secondly, i agree with the England team, and to a lesset extent the same applies to the Spanish team (i know they just won Euro, but before that what did they do other than fail?).

I think there needs to be another hidden attribute regarding how the player handles representative matches, not just big club matches. Having it hidden would mean you would be forced to pick and use the player before finding out that once he pulls on a white shirt (or yellow since i'm aussie!) he forgets what game he is playing.

i think that this hidden attribute should not just make him play poor, but maybe not as he usually would at club level, i.e. Mark Viduka, a pretty decent striker at EPL level and scores a fair few goals, but when he plays for Australia he can't work out what the opposition goal is actually for!

I agree with the team needing to gel, and i think that is sort of reflected in the game. i edited a db, made Liverpool really rich and signed a brilliant team, we didn't really start playing well until around the 10th game of the season, then we didn't loose (or conceed a goal) for a while. Game got boring and deleted, but it prooves that teams do need to gel.

Brazil are pretty much a pub team nowadays:

6 games played in 2008

3 victories

2 defeats (including a defeat vs Venezuela)

1 draw

5 goals scored

6 goals conceded

You could well say that about Scotland as well, though.

Previous 6 games played:

0 victories

3 defeats

3 draws

All in all, it doesn't fill me with much hope for the upcoming World Cup qualifiers.

Firstly, love the newspaper idea.

secondly, i agree with the England team, and to a lesset extent the same applies to the Spanish team (i know they just won Euro, but before that what did they do other than fail?).

I think there needs to be another hidden attribute regarding how the player handles representative matches, not just big club matches. Having it hidden would mean you would be forced to pick and use the player before finding out that once he pulls on a white shirt (or yellow since i'm aussie!) he forgets what game he is playing.

i think that this hidden attribute should not just make him play poor, but maybe not as he usually would at club level, i.e. Mark Viduka, a pretty decent striker at EPL level and scores a fair few goals, but when he plays for Australia he can't work out what the opposition goal is actually for!

I agree with the team needing to gel, and i think that is sort of reflected in the game. i edited a db, made Liverpool really rich and signed a brilliant team, we didn't really start playing well until around the 10th game of the season, then we didn't loose (or conceed a goal) for a while. Game got boring and deleted, but it prooves that teams do need to gel.

Yeah. I'm with you with the hidden attribute thing. If the boys of SI can make players fall out with one another for no apparent reason than "personality clash" then I'm sure they can tweak it just so that said player's performance level is affected as a direct result of their environment.

What about some sort of PPM clash? Lampard and Gerrard can't play together because their PPMs clash. Rooney needs a strike partner because his PPMs don't allow him to play up front on his own.

Without turning this into an OTF topic, how would you have the English team line up if this was implemented in FM? I'd play either Barry or Hargreaves with Gerrard, Owen and Heskey up front and Young and Little (if he ever gets fit) on the wings. In other words, get a system and find the players to play in that system.

I don't think English players will come anywhere close to be realistic in the fm09 , they are like the Swedes in cm00/01 .

English national team always failed because their players were of low quality and even after so many years they still think that managers were responsible what makes you think that this will change now ?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the problem isn't that English players are incredibly overrated (although some of them are to a smaller degree but it's an area in which you can debate) but that the game engine does not reflect the general lack of technical ability in English players.

I'd put it down as an engine problem, rather than a data one.

No word from anyone at SI about this?

Im sure I've seen this exact thread before, started by you SlayerX. Apologies If I'm wrong, but I am certain I've at least discussed this with you before

I for one think Rooney is one of the most overrated players in the game, both in reality and on FM, so I'd agree England are overrated for the exact reasons Moaner said... the individuals are overrated.

On my 08 game McClaren led England to two World Cups and 2 European Championships and was seen as a national hero and when I tried to show my family my progress on FM they merely mocked and said "it must be a great game if that moron is a legend". It got worse when I showed them the highlights from England's second World Cup final win in a desperate bid to show them it was all down to the players and not McClaren but when they saw England played attractive, attacking football the game's fate in their eyes was sealed.

Hopefully with the 3D pitch in 09 (no more "why do you want to spend all that time staring at dots") and with England's disastrous previous year the game will show the England team to be what it truly is: full of overpaid, overpampered, overpraised "superstars" who play boring defensive football

Neji: Yeah. I posted a similar thread prior to FM 2008 being released. It fell on deaf ears back then, but I'm hopeful that SI will get it now.

I mean, just look. Everyone has agreed with me. Any debate or argument you'll find at least one argumentative malcunent, but there are none here. And most of the people who have posted here are English, that said a lot, and I appreciate their honesty.

scrawney: lol! That pretty much sums it up, mate.

Well said.

Glad I was dreaming!

I dont think anyone can disagree. We could have arguements all day/year long about whether the players are overrated or not but there is no doubt that when together - England are terrible. The problem is getting the balance so that it doesnt affect future generations of England players aswell. And also I don't think stats can be taken down because reseacher give them what they feel they have.

Glad I was dreaming!

I dont think anyone can disagree. We could have arguements all day/year long about whether the players are overrated or not but there is no doubt that when together - England are terrible. The problem is getting the balance so that it doesnt affect future generations of England players aswell. And also I don't think stats can be taken down because reseacher give them what they feel they have.

lol

Damn, I should've played dumb and made you think that you were going through a spell of deja vu.

I don't know how they could do it. But if they can make it so that a players can clash with his team-mates then I'm sure they can implement something that makes the players clash on the field, in terms of not blending as well as logic would suggest.

The thing is, I think that would be tough to do right.

I could suggest just making the current set of players unable to play together somehow but then what if Cappello gets them winning and they do become world beaters (unlikely, yes)? Then the game is just as unrealistic. To me, it seems like a big problem because it would be so hard to get it to work right.

The thing is, I think that would be tough to do right.

I could suggest just making the current set of players unable to play together somehow but then what if Cappello gets them winning and they do become world beaters (unlikely, yes)? Then the game is just as unrealistic. To me, it seems like a big problem because it would be so hard to get it to work right.

Well, remember last year when SI "sacked" Mourinho from Chelsea, even though he got sacked within about 2 months of the season?

The argument behind the aforementioned data update was that SI wanted to make the game as accurate and as up-to-date as possible. If they take the current england scenario onto that then they have to make them pretty much 16th in the world... or is it 15th? I think Scotland are 16th. Anyway, I digress.

Well, remember last year when SI "sacked" Mourinho from Chelsea, even though he got sacked within about 2 months of the season?

The argument behind the aforementioned data update was that SI wanted to make the game as accurate and as up-to-date as possible. If they take the current england scenario onto that then they have to make them pretty much 16th in the world... or is it 15th? I think Scotland are 16th. Anyway, I digress.

Im not sure what the Mourinho reference is?

With your second paragraph, how do they do that? The players are individually rated good players so how do they make England bad without taking away the possibility that they could come good in some months work from Capello?

Im not sure what the Mourinho reference is?

With your second paragraph, how do they do that? The players are individually rated good players so how do they make England bad without taking away the possibility that they could come good in some months work from Capello?

Well, in real life Mourinho was still in charge of Chelsea come July of last year, but on Football Manager 2008 he was unemployed by the same month. This was done because it was more accurate and more up-to-date. If you want to translate this onto the English national team (i.e. not qualifying for the previous European championships and fans pretty much being disillusioned) then the results and the success of England on FM 2009 wouldn't be anything to write home about.

Apparently SI want their product to be accurate, if this is indeed the case then they will make england as good as they are in real life.

I know that anything is possible, you can make the argument that players need time to "blend" but come on now, how many years have England fans moaned about Gerrard and Lampard not being able to play in the same team? 4/5/6 years? I doubt they'll suddenly mesh in a couple of months, unless Capello is some kind of warlock... and he performs some sort of magic on them and as a result, everything clicks.

I'm going to stop myself before I go off on one about what Cappello should be doing. No one wants to hear that!

I hope SI get the balance right for 09

I'm going to stop myself before I go off on one about what Cappello should be doing. No one wants to hear that!

I hope SI get the balance right for 09

lol

Mate, honestly, Cappello has won pretty much everything there is to win in football club management. I've always respected him and rated him as amongst the all time great managers. If he can't get it right then no one can. Although, a team, any team, if they want to be world beaters have to have a real star player. Brazil has Kaka (and robinho, pato, ronaldinho) spain has torres (sp?) Argentina have Messi.. and I could go on.

I'm an avid watcher (and fan) of the premiership, but if I were to name a dream team then it would most certainly consist of flair players who are foreign and sturdy players who are English.

But yeah, we both agree on that. I do hope that SI find the right balance for 09. I really do.

Something does need to be done about this I am not sure how it can be done though. Its been said a few times England have got brilliant players IRL on their own merit and are rated so on the game. Trouble is in real life these players do not perform and do not look like they even want to play for their country not sure this can be programmed into FM but something needs to be done as it is rubbish that England seem to win alot on the game.

It is a hard thing to sort out but lets hope it is.

I haven't noticed the England national team to be too good on my game, for me it's Spain who have won every competition they have enetered and i'm in 2024. The English club teams are way too strong though, they are beatable, but they jsut seem to play amazing football against you no matter if it's Chelsea or Bolton.

RIGHT!!!!!!! SCOTS V IN-GER-LISH, LETS GO!!

FM engine recognises that all these top players combined would make a world beating team (which IRL they should...but they dont).

i just read that back and it sounded terrible...

They are not all world beaters. We have a few good players, however there technical ability is sub standard to that of other countries.