Youth Academies

I wonder if we have a little more realistic look at teams academies this time around on 09, In my eyes the likes of Liverpool and Arsenal shouldn't be producing as many decent youngsters as say... Middlesbrough or Man City, it seems the youth product goes on your team reputation, could academies themselves maybe have their own reputations?

Little hotspots in the lower leagues too, like Wolves and Crewe to name a few deserve a little higher percentage of good youth

yeah youth regeneration is just not distributed well enough

Yeah and while im here. Maybe a few lower league managers can sympathise with this, and it may have been raised before but i havent seen it.

Has anyone else come across this? You try to sign players who have absolutely no interest in joining you, yet they have no interest from anyone else at all, and its not as if im only offering them £30 per week, its a decent wage.

Instead of coming to my club to play their football they'd rather retire at the age of 18? Its especially annoying when its players who you know, if they get a good amount of first team football they'll develop into good players, or even just produce you a little cash in a years time when they develop. Surely if nobody at all is interested, you would take the offer thats on the table! They all cant be really clever lawyer types who can make better money elsewhere can they?

yes this needs to be sorted

Not a bad idea, especially if there were a way to develop that academy reputation, such as from graduates becoming famous players or having big name coaches sign on. Make it difficult to develop the reputation, but possible.

And yes, the retiring of 18 year olds could use some help. I mean certainly there will be kids who hang up their boots to choose some other profession, even if they are wanted by a club, but maybe the game doesn't need to be that deep. If they're in the database they probably should behave as the 99% of footballers who want to succeed.

But Arsenal have some of the most promising young english palyers in the country in their academy???

I'm a United fan but their academy will hold the future of English football.

Nottm Forest and Sheffield United academies are good aswell.

It does need to be changed, especially now that Watford have got their Harefield Academy up and running and in it's second year.

Perhaps an overview of the Youth attribute for the clubs is in order, possibly have a couple of different attributes that reflect the quality of the youth intake and the quality of the coaching and facilities.

For example Middlesborough would have a high rating for both intake and facilities, and a club like Crewe would have a high rating for intake, but middling for facilities. Watford would have a middle rating for intake and faily high facilities.

The intake rating will reflect the number of youth and have a bearing on their PA.

The facilities would also have a bearing on the PA, but mainly affects the players CA and skill gains up until they leave the U18s or until they are about 17.

There are a range of factors, set by the researchers, that determine the quality of regens at a club.

If the researcher rates the club highly, that's all there is to it. Clubs like Middlesborough are certainly not rated down on any basis of reputation.

The "intake" factor is present.

But Arsenal have some of the most promising young english palyers in the country in their academy???

I'm a United fan but their academy will hold the future of English football.

Nottm Forest and Sheffield United academies are good aswell.

Lets see if their "promise" holds true though, heres the thing........

If you look at the two teams i listed, we have Lee Cattermole, Andrew Taylor, Stuart Parnaby, Dave Wheater, James Morrison and Stewart Downing all making regular appearences in the Premiership

Similarly, we have Wright Phillips, Joe Hart, Micah Richards, Michael Johnson, Daniel Sturridge and Stephen Ireland all turning out regularly in the Prem

And out of those players, i count 6 that have been capped by their country

Not to mention the homegrown players who are on the fringes of those teams, which are a lot to mention

So far by my count i have Ashley Cole as a homegrown player (take note of the word homegrown, not bought in as a youngster) for Arsenal playing regular Prem football. I dont know, maybe Matthew Upson? I struggle to find any other players in the last 8 or so years. Im not sure whether to count Steve Sidwell as he was out of the door as fast as he was in at the Gooners

Thats the difference

Yeah the Forest and Sheff U academies have been quite productive, agreed on that point

Dave C, can you elaborate more on that post? If you know more about how it is decided id like to know

respected boss, arsenal get alot of their youth players from abroad/all over the country (walcott, fabregas) so technically their intake is of an astoundingly high quality, but they get less from regional areas.

having said that, francis jeffers, david bentley, ashley cole .... prob more as well.

edit: scratch jeffers. he was evertonian, and wenger bought him. just remembered

Being a Cardiff fan I'll get shot down for this, but we've had academy status for 3 years or more now and have recently produced Joe Ledley, Aaron Ramsey, Chris Gunter, etc. There'll be a few more this year too that will eventually move on such as Darcy Blake and Jon Brown. So I think our academy is fast becoming one of the better ones

Respected-Boss

Whilst I completley agree with what your saying, I would (as an Oldham fan) just like to point out that Man City purchased Richards from Oldham Athletic and as such we have a 20% sell on clause for him. Sadly (IRL) it doesn't look like he will now be moving to a 'bigger' club anytime soon now there club is mega rich and we will never see our 20% which would sustain our club for the best part 10 years.

On the bright side Oldham do (like many lower league clubs at the moment) have a flourishing youth system. Out of the side that won the Lancashire FA Cup (beating City I think) two years ago, Taylor, Eardley, Smalley, Allesandra, Lomax and to some extent Black have all gone on to become first team regulars and have had intrest expressed in them from more established clubs. Other players that have moved on in the last season or so include Will Haining (now at St Mirren) and Neal Trotman (500K to Preston). Players developed by Oldham but bought at a young age from other clubs include Chris Porter (Motherwell (valued at around 750k)) Scott Vernon (Colchester) and current Oldham players Dale Stephens, Chris O'Grady and Kieren Lee.

I'm sure many other clubs including the likes of Sheff Wed, Wolves, Crewe, Rotherham and even Leeds are all looking towards youth since this is the best way of making money. Selling your top youth players is something that needs to be done at most clubs to balance the books. Sorry to go on about Oldham, but even though we sold Trotman last season for 500k and had a strong cup run (beating Everton) we still made a loss of around 350K. We are fortunate that our owners are willing to take that sort of a loss year in, year out. But without promotion we will have to sell a player for 500k + profit every season just to help balance the books. Its a shame but those are the harsh facts of lower league football.

Again sorry to yap on about my club, I thought it might help a few people understand that the youth level in lower league football clubs easily produces more (not necissarly better quality) proffesional footballers than Premier League clubs. 6 players out of 15 youth team players went on to play for Oldham, 2 more for Rochdale and 1 or 2 more in Non-league football. So that accounts for approx 66% of that years youth team earning pro contracts and approx 40% played for the club that trained them. Could the same be said for Manchester United etc.

What started as a quick correction on Micah Richards turned into a proper ramble. Sorry again.

I always wondered if in the game, the quality of youth coaches you have in your team affects the quality of youth players that you receive.

I think sometimes it is a numbers game. Clubs such as Boca and River Plate in Argentina are the biggest in that country and so have the biggest fan base. They also have better quality youth teams and coaching structure. In turn they attract the most younger players into their youth system, and they should also attract more quality players. I think future FM games should take this into account. Bigger clubs should attract more quality younger players and this in turn produce better youth players. There would be an interaction between the quality of player and quality of youth academy. I am suggesting that this interaction occurs before players come into the youth team, that is before they are generated.

Count Sidwell for Arsenal. You might as well count Harper too, as he was playing in the PL for two years and the only reason he's still not is his loyalty to Reading.

But Arsenal have some of the most promising young english palyers in the country in their academy???

I'm a United fan but their academy will hold the future of English football.

Nottm Forest and Sheffield United academies are good aswell.

Sheffield Wednesday also have an excellent academy. McAllister, Wood, Spurr, Beevers have all recently broken into the first team, stayed there and are now subject to large bids from Premiership clubs. They have partnerships with Aregentina, Australia and Canada too which helps source good youngsters from abroad too.

For lower league clubs, does the location of the club have an impact? For example, irl Exeter City (my club) have a relativley flourishing youth set up which has produced several first team players. This is probably largely due to our large catchment area with little rivalry. Our nearest neighbour is Torquay who I dont believe have a youth set-up (happy to be corrected if I'm wrong there), then its 80 miles to Plymouth in the south and Bristol City/Rovers in the north so we have little competiton for local young talent, unlike other clubs of a similar stature but located in or around the big conurbations.

The point I'm trying to make through this waffle, is that the geographical location of the club and its local population size should have an impact upon the number of new players that are brought into the Youth set-up. I would be most interested to hear if this is something that is incorporated into FM.

The English researchers had a discussion for FM08 regarding the youth set ups.

There is a rating that take into account the facilities. And one that takes into account the club discovering youth talent and training them up until the point they enter the club as 15/16 year olds.

It always gets looked at, and we always debate the figures we are entering.

Rusher: There is nothing actually in regarding location having an impact, but im sure its taken into account by the researcher.

Everyone seems to be forgetting Ipswich Town!!

Richard Wright, Kieron Dyer, Darren Bent, Owen Garvan and plenty of others.

*Decides not to mention Titus Bramble*

On the bright side Oldham do (like many lower league clubs at the moment) have a flourishing youth system. Out of the side that won the Lancashire FA Cup (beating City I think) two years ago, Taylor, Eardley, Smalley, Allesandra, Lomax and to some extent Black have all gone on to become first team regulars and have had intrest expressed in them from more established clubs. Other players that have moved on in the last season or so include Will Haining (now at St Mirren) and Neal Trotman (500K to Preston). Players developed by Oldham but bought at a young age from other clubs include Chris Porter (Motherwell (valued at around 750k)) Scott Vernon (Colchester) and current Oldham players Dale Stephens, Chris O'Grady and Kieren Lee.

Stephens and Porter both came from Bury.

There is a rating that take into account the facilities. And one that takes into account the club discovering youth talent and training them up until the point they enter the club as 15/16 year olds.

Surely the chances of discovering youth talent should be set by the quality of the scouting network and not anything to do with the club as an entity?

I know and thats what I said. Players developed by Oldham - we did develop them - but bought at a young age from other clubs - we did buy both Stephans and Porter from Bury at a young age - include Chris Porter (Motherwell(valued at around 750k)) etc......

Stephens played around a dozen games for Bury before moving to Oldham this season and so in my opinion will be developed by Oldham Athletic. No disrespect to our local rivals Bury, but Porter would never become the player he did if he would have stayed at Bury. 2nd highest goalscorer in League One 2 seasons ago before moving to Motherwell for free when his contract run out. In moving to Scotland he cost Oldham approx 750K since it was classed as an international transfer and they did not have to pay any compensation. It also cost Bury who had 10% sell-on for the player. Will Haining was the same moving to St Mirren (saying that at least he took Michelle Marsh with him, lol).

Leeds United: Paul Robinson, Alan Smith, James Milner, Aaron Lennon, Jonny Howson, Matt Kilgallon, Simon Walton, etc.

respected boss, arsenal get alot of their youth players from abroad/all over the country (walcott, fabregas) so technically their intake is of an astoundingly high quality, but they get less from regional areas.

having said that, francis jeffers, david bentley, ashley cole .... prob more as well.

edit: scratch jeffers. he was evertonian, and wenger bought him. just remembered

No, Walcott and Fabregas were not youngsters brought through the academy, they were bought and thrown into the under 18's. You can already do that on FM!

yeh your right on David Bentley, anymore? This is what i mean. Im not saying the big clubs dont bring players through at all, what i am saying is this.......

Smaller clubs bring just as many good players if not more than the bigger clubs yet it doesnt seem to be reflected well in the game.

Man Utd have great youngsters constantly coming through, yet how many have actually made it as Prem League players? Fletcher, Brown, O'Shea, im struggling again. Im not gonna count the golden generation as we're talking nearly 15 years ago now. For every Darren Fletcher or Wes Brown theres 2 or 3 John Greening, Mark Wilson, Luke Chadwick and Chris Eagles type players and it has to be something to do with the academy setup. These clubs will get the cream of the crop as far as young teenagers are concerned and its not as if these players are leaving and then joining other prem clubs in their droves, theyre actually dropping down in divisions.

To me its not about intake, or reputation. There is something to do with clubs' individual academy setups that are the reason so much good young talent are coming through the ranks of the Middlesbroughs and Man Cities, and it simply isnt reflected in the game!

Ive been a strong advocate for more players with better potential, and also set paremeters making it harder to get that potential out of them because thats what i think happens in real life. I have no doubt that Chris Eagles had bags of potential, but something went wrong somewhere along the line which has seen him now playing at Burnley, and the other end of the scale is Jimmy Bullard, a player who has just been picked for the England squad! Not many Prem clubs saw potential in him, but there he is, playing in the Premiership and looks to be getting an England cap, despite never playing for England at any other level. How would FM have rated him as a youngster?

The intake and all that crap, thats not what needs changed, the academies themselves need to have like a productivity percentage, turning a might be superstar into a definate superstar, im not sure whether ive totally gotten my point across in the essay, hopefully i have

Surely the chances of discovering youth talent should be set by the quality of the scouting network and not anything to do with the club as an entity?

Some clubs do have a reputation (usually based on the clubs history/past acheivements) that exceeds what would be considered normal for either a scouting network, or even for the league they are in.

Forest as a L1 team were more comparable to higher teams in terms of some youth players they were able to attract, all down to thier fanbase & history.

There are a lot of odd little ratings (eg Attractiveness) for clubs, towns, league's and even countries in the pre-game editor which must be there for a reason, this possibly could be one of those reasons.

Cardiff city

Chopra(got his career better)

Earnshaw

Jerome

Ramsey

Gabbidon

Collins

Gunter

All have moved on but seem to be playing not well for other clubs ut great academies.

Sheffield Wednesday also have an excellent academy. McAllister, Wood, Spurr, Beevers have all recently broken into the first team, stayed there and are now subject to large bids from Premiership clubs. They have partnerships with Aregentina, Australia and Canada too which helps source good youngsters from abroad too.

I was going to come in with the same thing.

I just have my fingers crossed that Youth acadamies in the MLS will actually have a purpose this year, instead of merely appearing on the club info screen.

Cardiff city

Chopra(got his career better) Newcastle

Earnshaw trialled at Middlesbrough

Jerome trialled at Middlesbrough

Ramsey

Gabbidon

Collins

Gunter

All have moved on but seem to be playing not well for other clubs ut great academies.

We had both Jerome and Earnshaw at some point in our academy, wasnt for very long but they were trialled there and moved along.

Chopra wasnt in the Cardiff academy.

joe cole

rio fedinand

frank lampard

michael carrick

jermain defoe

glen johnson

mark noble

anton ferdinand

and even jimmy bullard whos been mentioned in this thread

a tragedy

Lets see if their "promise" holds true though, heres the thing........

If you look at the two teams i listed, we have Lee Cattermole, Andrew Taylor, Stuart Parnaby, Dave Wheater, James Morrison and Stewart Downing all making regular appearences in the Premiership

Certainly no better than Arsenal's list of players. James Harper, Justin Hoyte, Fabrice Muamba, Steven Sidwell, David Bentley and Ashley Cole.

If you have two 16 year old's of equal ability, being at Boro is probably better than Arsenal too, because you'll get more of a chance in the senior team. Players' careers will stall when they get to about 18 at top clubs, whilst the manager decide if they're good enough or not. Players like Greening or Eagles may well be a lot better now had they been at 'Boro when they were 17, and that's nothing to do with the academy.

joe cole

rio fedinand

frank lampard

michael carrick

jermain defoe

glen johnson

mark noble

anton ferdinand

and even jimmy bullard whos been mentioned in this thread

a tragedy

Correct that is a tragedy. Three England first team regulars (Rio, Lamps, Defoe), 2 squad regulars (Carrick, Johnson) and the rest (Noble, Anton F and Jimm B) all have been in the squad at least once before. You also forgot to mention Joe Cole, so that makes it 4 England regulars. Thats almost a whole team!!!

Liverpool do have a decent academy, players like Owen, Fowler, Gerrard, Carragher, etc have come through and have all played for England.

I think their quality of regens is actually quite poor and needs to be improved, not worsened. Sadly, I'll also admit this is the same for that 3rd team in Liverpool, also known as Everton (the first 2 being Liverpool and Liverpool Reserves!)

And yes, I am a Liverpool fan!!

joe cole

rio fedinand

frank lampard

michael carrick

jermain defoe signed from Charlton

glen johnson

mark noble

anton ferdinand

and even jimmy bullard whos been mentioned in this thread

a tragedy

Defoe is another who was signed in to the academy.

Liverpool do have a decent academy, players like Owen, Fowler, Gerrard, Carragher, etc have come through and have all played for England.

I think their quality of regens is actually quite poor and needs to be improved, not worsened. Sadly, I'll also admit this is the same for that 3rd team in Liverpool, also known as Everton (the first 2 being Liverpool and Liverpool Reserves!)

And yes, I am a Liverpool fan!!

Dont forget Steve McManaman!

Plus we've also had a few players that have gone on to be regulars with other premiership teams (Guthrie, Warnock, Thompson) or lower divisions (Wright, Mellor, Matteo, Harkness)

Gee, are there any teams in england that don't have fantastic academies? You wouldn't know it reading this thread

I think its very easy to big up 'your' clubs academy.

Same to say its something that the researchers do discuss, i wouldnt really say its a problem in game. May be more a regen problem than the stats that are assigned by the researchers.

Saying 'we' have a great academy because we produced players A, B, C, D etc etc whom are all 30+ now, doesnt make any sense really. They probably didnt actually come through what is now known as the academy, that system wouldnt have been set up fully then.

from crewe's academy:

dean ashton

rob hulse

seth johnson

david vaughan

nicky maynard

now if only i had some defenders to add to this list!

Billy Jones?

Billy Jones?

how could i forget young mr. jones?

the training facilitys need updating as well i was at evertons a few week ago its a state of the art 15 million traing complex one of the best in the world but its only average in the game

Certainly no better than Arsenal's list of players. James Harper, Justin Hoyte, Fabrice Muamba, Steven Sidwell, David Bentley and Ashley Cole.

If you have two 16 year old's of equal ability, being at Boro is probably better than Arsenal too, because you'll get more of a chance in the senior team. Players' careers will stall when they get to about 18 at top clubs, whilst the manager decide if they're good enough or not. Players like Greening or Eagles may well be a lot better now had they been at 'Boro when they were 17, and that's nothing to do with the academy.

I didnt really want this to be a "big up" for teams' youth development, or an argument on whos produced the better players. Surely you agree, there isnt enough players with decent PA in the game.

Cherno Samba was a player who had limitless potential, but im willing to bet if you look at the most recent fm, regardless of his CA, his PA will only be around the 130 mark at best.