Style of passing and player movment off the ball

At the moment player movement off the ball is generic for all styles of play. Th only modifiers for movement off the ball is the defesive line, width, formation/arrows and mentality.

Playing direct or short passing doesn't change how players move off the ball.

For short passing there needs to be more player movement so that short pass options are offered. For exmaple, moving a bit more toward the ball.

It needs to be done carefully so that not all players offer a short option. Of course sometimes a short option may not aways be forthcoming.

It needs to be that a cuple of the nearer players will offer the shorter pass option.

The more intelligent players should be able to adapt their movement to the style of passing required more easily.

my playmaker at sevilla is Alberto Zapater. Navas, Van Der Vaart and Capel work extremely well together, but only if i play mixed passing. Zapater has a short passing PPM, but i rarely utilise it. occasionally, the team will ping it around and carve open the opposition brilliantly. there was an offside goal yesterday which can only be described as the best single piece of football i've played all season. in febuary.

good player movement exists, but it doesn't happen as often as it should. i haven't been able to get either of my front two to make a run off his marker, they are just happy to get closed down and tackled.

There are already problems with the game in terms of possession of certain AI teams when they have no problems whatsoever with players not making themselves available for short passes and they just pass the ball around amongst themselves so I don't want anything added that will make that even worse.

I play short passing all the time at Werder Bremen and even though I have found my fullbacks regularly tend to ignore that and just punt it down the wing to no-one I see plenty of very pleasing short passing and movement. My playmaker and lone striker had an almost telepathic understanding of where to play the little passes and where to run, respectively during the season I won the Bundesliga. Unfortunately I sold the striker and the replacement was a total donkey who didn't develop anything like that level of understanding

I have to repeat, movement is generic at the moment only modified by what I have described.

Of course short passing can look good at the moment. But that is because they are passing short ball.

I am talking more of the player moving for the short ball more.

At the moment all movement is generic.

For example pause a match when the opposition has the ball or even when your team has the ball in the centre circle of the pitch. Generally your players will line up almost symetrically ( depending on your formation). Players are following certain predefined off the ball paths and not really diverting from them.

This is why most moves/goals come in very usual ways at the moment. There needs to be this extra variety. Enhanced movement off the ball improvement can help this.

When these variances are introduced we can then look forward to more complex moves such as players moving off the ball purely to create a space for another (possibly based on the expected type of pass).

Also, how about players move more according to individual passing instruction for a player's team mate?

For example a STRIKER with instruction of "cross from byline" FOR THE WINGER will be more likely to make a move to get in front of a centre back when the winger gets to the byline than in other situations.

Another example. A full back on longer passing, with team focus of going down the flanks and the receiving player may be more likely to anticipate a ball down the line than would otherwise be the case.

Of course these variances should be subtle, but have enough of an effect to make each teams play a little more distinct.

Its always interseting to read posts about tactical ideas, you can never have too many tactic options. I think the summary of these ideas would be more specific player relationships on the pitch. Specific instructions between specific players.

That was sort of where my brain went on first reading of it, someguy.

I was thinking more along the lines of different tickboxes, similar to the "Forward Runs" tickbox, for each position:

"Show To The Ball"

"Come Back To The Ball"

"Break To The Sidelines"

"Break To The Center"

"Break Up The Line"

"Make Overlapping Runs"

"Try To Break The Offsides Trap"

"Trail The Play"

etc ... you could use those, I think, to get all sorts of different behaviors out of different players... without arrows.

That was sort of where my brain went on first reading of it, someguy.

I was thinking more along the lines of different tickboxes, similar to the "Forward Runs" tickbox, for each position:

"Show To The Ball"

"Come Back To The Ball"

"Break To The Sidelines"

"Break To The Center"

"Break Up The Line"

"Make Overlapping Runs"

"Try To Break The Offsides Trap"

"Trail The Play"

etc ... you could use those, I think, to get all sorts of different behaviors out of different players... without arrows.

Man, this is exactly the sort of thing I would like to see and its surely achieveable, you would think.

Sorry Amaroq but for once I'm going to have to disagree with you and others in this thread

It's spotting these movements and making them at the right time that separates quality of player. Player movement is not something you can instruct tactically.

In the real world players learn and some have the capacity to do so more than others, and learn to apply these methods almost as second nature. It becomes part of their instinct and the movement is made without conscious thought, and again contributes to the difference between a clogger and a star. Can managers and coaches teach players how they want them to move? Absolutely as it is not rocket science. Can a player make those decisions in the 'heat of the battle' as it where? Not all can and that's a crucial element of ability separation.

Replicating this within the current system where 'off the ball' matters and CA limits it would be a nightmare, and just trying to come up with ideas of how it could potentially work makes my head spin

To me the specific details of player movement either in an attacking play or in a defensive play should never be impacted by tactical settings (except for the obvious like man marking). It should always be about the player, and I really hope with the removal of arrows the differences in player movement with respect to attributes are more pronounced than they are on FM 08. As it stands it still seems like a low anticipation, low off the ball striker can make the same great runs a striker on the opposite end of the spectrum does.

Everything I posted here also applies to what Ranjith suggested in his opening post. I honestly believe from years of watching and playing football that players dictate tactical style. Arsenal don't play short quick passing just because that's Wenger's style. They do so because they have the players to do so and who were brought up to play in that manner.

As much as people harp on here about how unrealistic the game is (scorelines, corner goals, etc), the day that players move differently because of your passing style is the day I call time. You can tell a player to come short all day long but if he hasn't got the awareness to do so at the right time nothing you show him will make a difference. Same applies to players making intelligent runs to create space for team mates.

So yes I would like to see more variety in player movement but it should never be linked to tactics (while we're on player movement I'd rather defensive movement got some changes before they improve attacking movement more).

Also, and I might get shot down over this one, I think there should be an option to instruct a player to specificly look to feed another specific player as often as he can. I know you have pass settings, set as playmaker, targetman, whatever, but these are more general team settings. I'm sure this does happen in real life. Tell Scholes, for example, who is a great passer and is creative to, as soon as he recieves the ball, his first thought should be; can I release Ronaldo down the left. Whereas someone like Vidic, maybe you don't want him to look for Ronaldo as often as his passing isn't great and there is a risk of him losing the ball so you would rather he kept it simple.

Sorry Amaroq but for once I'm going to have to disagree with you and others in this thread

It's spotting these movements and making them at the right time that separates quality of player. Player movement is not something you can instruct tactically.

In the real world players learn and some have the capacity to do so more than others, and learn to apply these methods almost as second nature. It becomes part of their instinct and the movement is made without conscious thought, and again contributes to the difference between a clogger and a star. Can managers and coaches teach players how they want them to move? Absolutely as it is not rocket science. Can a player make those decisions in the 'heat of the battle' as it where? Not all can and that's a crucial element of ability separation.

Replicating this within the current system where 'off the ball' matters and CA limits it would be a nightmare, and just trying to come up with ideas of how it could potentially work makes my head spin

To me the specific details of player movement either in an attacking play or in a defensive play should never be impacted by tactical settings (except for the obvious like man marking). It should always be about the player, and I really hope with the removal of arrows the differences in player movement with respect to attributes are more pronounced than they are on FM 08. As it stands it still seems like a low anticipation, low off the ball striker can make the same great runs a striker on the opposite end of the spectrum does.

Everything I posted here also applies to what Ranjith suggested in his opening post. I honestly believe from years of watching and playing football that players dictate tactical style. Arsenal don't play short quick passing just because that's Wenger's style. They do so because they have the players to do so and who were brought up to play in that manner.

As much as people harp on here about how unrealistic the game is (scorelines, corner goals, etc), the day that players move differently because of your passing style is the day I call time. You can tell a player to come short all day long but if he hasn't got the awareness to do so at the right time nothing you show him will make a difference. Same applies to players making intelligent runs to create space for team mates.

So yes I would like to see more variety in player movement but it should never be linked to tactics (while we're on player movement I'd rather defensive movement got some changes before they improve attacking movement more).

Yeah so the player stats and class dictates how well they carry out the instructions. Sure It is down to the player but managers can encourage players to move here or there (not too specificly) and players will follow these orders depending on how good they are. Also Arsenal, they most definately are encourage to pass short, definately. Again, yes they are the right sort of player but Wenger clearly encourages them to play that way.

isuckatfm - I'm glad you disagreed, but I'm not sure I really followed you. Take these two comments, from the same paragraph:

It's spotting these movements and making them at the right time that separates quality of player.

Spot on, in my mind ... but then you follow it up with:

Player movement is not something you can instruct tactically.

What?

Isn't that one of the few things a manager can instruct tactically?

I mean, looking at youth soccer matches as they're the only place I get to listen to managerial instructions at the moment: I've often heard things like "John, I want you to come back for the ball more," or "There's been a lot of space down the left, so Ted, I want you to look to break in behind the fullback on that side."

Especially if I don't have arrows, how else would I represent those tactical instructions?

I'm not saying that I don't want the players' mental attributes to have an impact, of course they should:

Anticipation - figuring out who is going to have the ball next

Anticipation - anticipating that you could make a run for him.

Work Rate - deciding that you have the energy to make a run

Decisions, Off The Ball - deciding when and where to make a run

Decisions, Team Work - deciding to make an "unselfish" run

Anticipation, Off The Ball - anticipating your teammates' runs so that you don't clog up space for them

Off The Ball, Acceleration - ability to actually fake out your man

Pace - ability to stay ahead of your man once you're at speed

Work Rate - at the end of a run, working hard to get your marker back out of that space

That's plenty of scope for a mentally incapable player to mess up a run ..

So when I get to a paragraph like:

To me the specific details of player movement either in an attacking play or in a defensive play should never be impacted by tactical settings (except for the obvious like man marking). It should always be about the player, and I really hope with the removal of arrows the differences in player movement with respect to attributes are more pronounced than they are on FM 08. As it stands it still seems like a low anticipation, low off the ball striker can make the same great runs a striker on the opposite end of the spectrum does.

I find myself completely disagreeing with the first point: the specific details of player movement should be impacted by tactical settings.

However, I find myself in full agreement with the rest of the paragraph: I want the differences in player movement with respect to attributes to be more pronounced; I want the mental attributes to be very important.

I think this sentence is the only spot where you and I are in perfect agreement:

You can tell a player to come short all day long but if he hasn't got the awareness to do so at the right time nothing you show him will make a difference. Same applies to players making intelligent runs to create space for team mates.

Yes, yes, yes. I want to tell a player to come short ... but because I've asked a selfish player with poor work rate, bad decisions, and poor anticipation to do it .. he's too lazy to come back all the time, he doesn't come back at the right times, and when he does come back its dragging his defender in front of a better run from one of his teammates. By sheer random chance, he does happen to come back pretty close to the right time sometimes .. but not often, and I'm very frustrated with him.

By the same token, if I've got a player with great teamwork, work rate, decisions, and anticipation .. not only is he much more likely to make a run, he's much closer to the right time, and instead of clogging up space, he's pretty good at spotting his teammates' runs and dragging his defender away to create space for his teammates.

But the fact that he's coming short instead of trying to break the offsides trap? I think that's a tactical setting.

isuckatfm - I'm glad you disagreed, but I'm not sure I really followed you. Take these two comments, from the same paragraph:

Spot on, in my mind ... but then you follow it up with:

What?

Isn't that one of the few things a manager can instruct tactically?

I mean, looking at youth soccer matches as they're the only place I get to listen to managerial instructions at the moment: I've often heard things like "John, I want you to come back for the ball more," or "There's been a lot of space down the left, so Ted, I want you to look to break in behind the fullback on that side."

Especially if I don't have arrows, how else would I represent those tactical instructions?

I'm not saying that I don't want the players' mental attributes to have an impact, of course they should:

Anticipation - figuring out who is going to have the ball next

Anticipation - anticipating that you could make a run for him.

Work Rate - deciding that you have the energy to make a run

Decisions, Off The Ball - deciding when and where to make a run

Decisions, Team Work - deciding to make an "unselfish" run

Anticipation, Off The Ball - anticipating your teammates' runs so that you don't clog up space for them

Off The Ball, Acceleration - ability to actually fake out your man

Pace - ability to stay ahead of your man once you're at speed

Work Rate - at the end of a run, working hard to get your marker back out of that space

That's plenty of scope for a mentally incapable player to mess up a run ..

So when I get to a paragraph like:

I find myself completely disagreeing with the first point: the specific details of player movement should be impacted by tactical settings.

However, I find myself in full agreement with the rest of the paragraph: I want the differences in player movement with respect to attributes to be more pronounced; I want the mental attributes to be very important.

I think this sentence is the only spot where you and I are in perfect agreement:

Yes, yes, yes. I want to tell a player to come short ... but because I've asked a selfish player with poor work rate, bad decisions, and poor anticipation to do it .. he's too lazy to come back all the time, he doesn't come back at the right times, and when he does come back its dragging his defender in front of a better run from one of his teammates. By sheer random chance, he does happen to come back pretty close to the right time sometimes .. but not often, and I'm very frustrated with him.

By the same token, if I've got a player with great teamwork, work rate, decisions, and anticipation .. not only is he much more likely to make a run, he's much closer to the right time, and instead of clogging up space, he's pretty good at spotting his teammates' runs and dragging his defender away to create space for his teammates.

But the fact that he's coming short instead of trying to break the offsides trap? I think that's a tactical setting.

I have say I agree again. Spot on. Like you say, to use an example off the current game, if I instruct a player who is poor at passing to hit long balls and it doesen't work but he keeps trying, or as often as he can, then great. Thats my bad judgement. But you must have the option to make these judgements in the game.

@ Amaroq

Put it down to a lack of clarity in what I wrote so when I posted this

Player movement is not something you can instruct tactically.

what I was getting at was this

You can tell a player to come short all day long but if he hasn't got the awareness to do so at the right time nothing you show him will make a difference. Same applies to players making intelligent runs to create space for team mates.

so wires crossed due to poor writing and my interpretation of what you said Tactics play a role but you can't get say Lampard to play like Fabregas as it's just not in him

So we do agree in general but I just don't like the idea of specific inputs into player movements the way you suggested in some areas. Like 'trail the play' for a central midfielder. I honestly don't believe it is that simple that a manager can just say to a central midfielder 'trail the play' and offer support. I've watched **** poor midfielders and world class midfielders and what separates them in many respects is that they do this instinctively and position themselves well instinctively. They find space where space is available. They make the game look easy because of their ability to do this.

It's a difficult thing to consider how it might work and I just don't want to see it become that specific and easy to get players to do exactly what you want them to do. I don't really know how to phrase this without it reading as condescending so please don't take offence. Youth coaches are shaping the players. Players in FM/the real world are mostly the finished article and managers in many respects buy them because they exhibit these specific movements and would work well in a given system.

Liverpool buy Keane because he has acted as a foil for Berbatov and see him fulfilling that role for them. I haven't seen Liverpool religiously by any stretch but I think the fact that Benitez used Gerrard as a foil for Torres instead of the strikers he already had says it all. If it were so simple then he would have just told Kuyt or Crouch to play that role by as you suggested telling them to drop off, but the simple fact is Benitez didn't trust in them to do it (in my opinion Crouch got a raw deal but that's another story).

Again I do agree with tactics playing a role (my initial post obviously wasn't clear on second reading) but it should be about 80-20 player determined. I just don't like the idea of it being so specific as you posted and how I responded was not really thought out but more against the idea of a manager giving instructions like you listed that in my opinion are what determine quality players.

Football is like everything else. Everyone has an opinion and here's mine and a reason why I disagree. Take Fabregas for Arsenal. He as you suggested 'trails play'. Now if that were a specific manager instruction wouldn't you see at least one midfielder for Arsenal do the same if Fabregas happens to be missing? In my opinion you don't see it. Fabregas last season made them tick not because the manager said 'trail play' or whatever else, but because it is how he plays. He seeks out the ball and orchestrates. It's just him as a player doing something that not alot of players in the World can do as effectively at the highest level.

I realise I'm flip flopping here but . I still believe that in real life people put far too much emphasis on tactics. A team can be well organised and disciplined due to tactics but when it comes to creating space, exploiting space and denying space it fundamentally comes down to the individual players. Just my opinion and I've read posts by others on this forum before who totally disagree and I really don't want to get into that argument again because it is alot like politics. Each side thinks the other is wrong and there is nothing that either side can say that will alter the other's opinion (if that even makes sense ).

But I recognise my dream is far fetched in FM terms as players will always need tactical instructions to impact on player movement (forward runs, free role, creative freedom etc.) because the little dots need someone to tell them what to do.

It's spotting these movements and making them at the right time that separates quality of player. Player movement is not something you can instruct tactically.

No, but players will be affected by the teams style of play. Under Allardyce players played in an almost robotic fashion. PLay the percentage ball and hit the right areas. Players would adapt their moves based on the team pattern of play. Diouf plays a different game for his country than when he played at Bolton. No matter how slight, the variance needs to be reflected in FM.

In the real world players learn and some have the capacity to do so more than others, and learn to apply these methods almost as second nature. It becomes part of their instinct and the movement is made without conscious thought, and again contributes to the difference between a clogger and a star. Can managers and coaches teach players how they want them to move? Absolutely as it is not rocket science. Can a player make those decisions in the 'heat of the battle' as it where? Not all can and that's a crucial element of ability separation.

Agreed, and I qualified that by saying it depends very much on the intelligence of the player.

Replicating this within the current system where 'off the ball' matters and CA limits it would be a nightmare, and just trying to come up with ideas of how it could potentially work makes my head spin

To me the specific details of player movement either in an attacking play or in a defensive play should never be impacted by tactical settings (except for the obvious like man marking). It should always be about the player, and I really hope with the removal of arrows the differences in player movement with respect to attributes are more pronounced than they are on FM 08. As it stands it still seems like a low anticipation, low off the ball striker can make the same great runs a striker on the opposite end of the spectrum does.

I have to disagree with you here. Yes, the player is very important in what moves are made and depending on player capability tactics are defined, but players do have a preferred style of play and som,etimes have to curb their natural style for the sake of tactics. (This ties in with my other post about playERs preferred styles of play)

Everything I posted here also applies to what Ranjith suggested in his opening post. I honestly believe from years of watching and playing football that players dictate tactical style. Arsenal don't play short quick passing just because that's Wenger's style. They do so because they have the players to do so and who were brought up to play in that manner.

Yes, they play like that after years of coaching. Not everyone plays like that. It is a culture thing.

Not all players adapt. Many times a player doesn;t fit in because he doesn't suit the tactical sytem required of him. Many players do have a preference on tempo - even good technical players. They prefer to be more direct and take less chances and for example, don't try and play their way out of trouble.

As much as people harp on here about how unrealistic the game is (scorelines, corner goals, etc), the day that players move differently because of your passing style is the day I call time. You can tell a player to come short all day long but if he hasn't got the awareness to do so at the right time nothing you show him will make a difference. Same applies to players making intelligent runs to create space for team mates.

So yes I would like to see more variety in player movement but it should never be linked to tactics (while we're on player movement I'd rather defensive movement got some changes before they improve attacking movement more).

At the moment, as far as I can see, there is no modification for movement based on passing style. If you tell your players to play a short passing game, why then are there just as many short passing option when playing exactly the same tactic but with a long passing instruction?

There is definitely something amiss with that.

If I was a midfielder and I was in a long passing team, I would expect to be getting bypassed when the ball is with the centre backs, so why would I bother expending energy for a short pass from them? I should be more likely to support the strikers, as they attempt to knock it long.

That was sort of where my brain went on first reading of it, someguy.

I was thinking more along the lines of different tickboxes, similar to the "Forward Runs" tickbox, for each position:

"Show To The Ball"

"Come Back To The Ball"

"Break To The Sidelines"

"Break To The Center"

"Break Up The Line"

"Make Overlapping Runs"

"Try To Break The Offsides Trap"

"Trail The Play"

etc ... you could use those, I think, to get all sorts of different behaviors out of different players... without arrows.

Amaroq, its nice that you are in support of the principal of the suggestion, however, I think many of them are PPMs.

Perhaps they can be included as optons, but it may be that they are ignored. It really depends on the player intelligence etc.

I think it is a mix of tactics, PPMs and state of the match which determines player movement most.

@ Amaroq

I realise I'm flip flopping here but . I still believe that in real life people put far too much emphasis on tactics. A team can be well organised and disciplined due to tactics but when it comes to creating space, exploiting space and denying space it fundamentally comes down to the individual players. Just my opinion and I've read posts by others on this forum before who totally disagree and I really don't want to get into that argument again because it is alot like politics. Each side thinks the other is wrong and there is nothing that either side can say that will alter the other's opinion (if that even makes sense ).

I think most of us here are agreeing that the tactics do have an impact on the player movement off the ball, but that it shouldn't have too much of an impact.

Its about finding the correct balance between instructing players and the individuals stats/quality and mantality. But, for me, there is room in the game to add some more specific tactics like player runs, passing instructions etc. I know its hard to replicate real life but think about Arsenal. The little triangles they get going, the third man running, the give and goes. These are most definately encouraged by the manager and practiced in traning. Of course finding the right players to carry out these instructions and bring their own thinking and way of playing is important, but these things do happen in football.

All excellent points Ranjith and much like Amaroq it does sway me slightly but I honestly believe (anyone suggest an alternative phrase as I'm using that alot ) that player attributes should be the defining factor in what they do in a given system and that the generic options we have now should be just that.

Take your long passing example. It makes perfect sense to me and in the FM world you'd set the midfielder to forward runs often and the backline to direct passing. Whether or not he makes the run should be determined by his attributes and his judgement of the scenario (as well as mentality, creative freedom?), and not because your passing style is set to long.

But the truth is there is still the black box of Creative Freedom. I honestly don't know what that does despite reading the manual, countless articles/threads and testing until the cows come home. It's discussions like this where some input from someone who knows the workings of the code would be great but let's face it that's not going to happen. Much like Coca Cola they'll put the ingredients on the label but they sure as hell won't tell you the exact combination as it will open up the secrets of their product in a damaging way.

Also I saw your reference to player intelligence. Most of my intital post was a gut reaction to Amaroq's listing of specific movements so it wasn't exactly well thought out.

I have to disagree with you here. Yes, the player is very important in what moves are made and depending on player capability tactics are defined, but players do have a preferred style of play and som,etimes have to curb their natural style for the sake of tactics. (This ties in with my other post about plays preferred styles of play)

I actually do agree with that but again my post wasn't exactly clear and was an instant reaction to the idea of being able to tell players 'exactly' how to move. Your post I quoted here makes more sense to me than the exactness and combined with Amaroq's/someguy's second posts (ability plus tactics) would be a more acceptable (to me anyway) way of implementing it. I think there's a distinction to be drawn here between as you say 'curbing a player's natural instincts' and what I see the suggestion as 'causing players to move in ways that they just aren't capable of doing'. To me you can go A -> B but you can't go B -> A. I hope that makes sense but it's late and I'm not sure it does

But as I said in my opinion it's more about the player than what the manager says and the truth is I'm fairly entrenched in that position.

EDIT: the truth is, honestly believe. I need a thesaurus for phrases.

I think we're very much on the same page, all four of us, then.

I'd originally not posted the "tickboxes" idea because it wasn't well thought out, and I hadn't wanted to take the time to think it through. someguy tempted me into it with his post.

I can definitely see what you're saying, isuckatfm, especially re: Fabregas, way to use a great example to back up your point. I think Ranjith hits the nail on the head with how to represent that: it isn't part of the team's tactical instruction set, but it is one of Fabregas' PPM's. Therefore, he does it without being told.

However, absent the ability to speak directly to my players on the sideline, I'd like to have some much more obvious input into what I'm telling my players to do! If I'm coaching youth players, I have the ability to - in practice at least - blow a whistle, stop play, and walk through what I'd like each player to be thinking about, and why.

I don't have that ability in FM - all I have are sliders and other inputs, so I'd like to have more tactical inputs, especially considering the death of the arrows.

Of course, those inputs don't do me much good if they're obscure and undefined .. I want simple knobs whose impact I understand!