I love fm but now i'm furious

FM08 is still a good game but it doesn't get near FM07 or even its predecessors.

With no patch, I was sacked four seasons into a save with Ipswich because I failed to win the championship by the end of a four year plan because I was mid-table premiership. I had wasted my time entirely. Although people say "well you've got to expect bugs", well yes they are right but some serious bugs are completely inexcusable if they result in people getting sacked.

Recently I had a save with Boulogne in which I achieved an "incredible" promotion to ligue 1 in my first season. I was looking to bring in some quality players who were available like zarate, jimenez, gignac. on the season update my board tells me that i will have £0 for transfers and £30k wage budget. i am shocked so i look at my finances. last time i looked there had been £2m in the bank. i then see that i am £11m in debt. i can't believe it as out of nowhere i have lost £13m. my ground was being upgraded by 7000 seats and that was seemingly where the money had gone. what a joke! i thought that ground expenditure was done in installments and not one huge disproportionate some which seems way too much for 7000 seats. now i have given up because i have been forced to sell my existing squad and have no chance of ever signing zarate, jimenez, kalouda and gignac. is there an explanation for this?

mayve someone from si could shed some light on what seems to be a bug or very poorly implemented idea

patching the game would have probably stopped you gettin the sack from Ipswich. as for the ground expansion, im not sure how they usually finance it, but im sure its only done if the club can afford it, if not, then theyd take a loan out... seems a bit odd they put you into debt for it... theres nowhere else the money could have gone?? future transfer fees maybe?

patching the game would have probably stopped you gettin the sack from Ipswich. as for the ground expansion, im not sure how they usually finance it, but im sure its only done if the club can afford it, if not, then theyd take a loan out... seems a bit odd they put you into debt for it... theres nowhere else the money could have gone?? future transfer fees maybe?

absolutely nothing, i looked in expenditure, all of the money was on ground maintenance.

my ipswich save was pre any patch back in october/novemeber, my boulogne disappointment was yesterday using 8.0.2,

the club can't afford it as i now limited contract lengths to offer and only £750 a week as a maximum wage offer. i was really enjoying it as well, i'm a bit gutted.

You are choosing to play unpatched. You have no right to moan about any bugs in the unpatched version.

Guess why?

Because they have been fixed in the patches.

Every FM is better patched than unpatched.

absolutely nothing, i looked in expenditure, all of the money was on ground maintenance.

my ipswich save was pre any patch back in october/novemeber, my boulogne disappointment was yesterday using 8.0.2,

the club can't afford it as i now limited contract lengths to offer and only £750 a week as a maximum wage offer. i was really enjoying it as well, i'm a bit gutted.

You are choosing to play unpatched. You have no right to moan about any bugs in the unpatched version.

Guess why?

Because they have been fixed in the patches.

Every FM is better patched than unpatched.

he is patched up!!!

You are choosing to play unpatched. You have no right to moan about any bugs in the unpatched version.

Guess why?

Because they have been fixed in the patches.

Every FM is better patched than unpatched.

my boulogne game is using 8.0.2,

and i completely disagree with what you are saying. in previous versions i have never experienced ''terrible'' bugs unpatched, just the odd strange one, but on fm08 i was sacked for exceeding expectation. this game is put on the shelves unfinished so it should say on the box THIS GAME ISN'T FINISHED but then they wouldn't sell as many.

if you claim i don't have the right to complain then i say to si and sega that they don't have the right to put the game on the shelves until these ''fatal'' bugs have been corrected.

before fm08 i have never been particularly disappointed with the fm series game out of the box so i was surprised when this one was so incomplete.

Do the French League have minimum stadium requirements?

Do the French League have minimum stadium requirements?

funnily enough what i was about to say and iirc they do

Do the French League have minimum stadium requirements?

it had run through my mind but i do remember si saying that they didn't implement that rule as it would unfair on lower league managers,

anyway even if there was a minimum requirement then why pay £13m up front for a small club like boulogne.

it had run through my mind but i do remember si saying that they didn't implement that rule as it would unfair on lower league managers,

anyway even if there was a minimum requirement then why pay £13m up front for a small club like boulogne.

aye it can't be in, or i wouldn't have a custom team in league 1 with a 7000 all standing stadium

does FMM have a feature where you can modify / add loans onto the club?? if so give yourself money so you are back to your original balance and then take a loan which would pay off the 13mil over 10 years or something

useful point but using those tools always feels like cheating. thanks anyway

my boulogne game is using 8.0.2,

and i completely disagree with what you are saying. in previous versions i have never experienced ''terrible'' bugs unpatched, just the odd strange one, but on fm08 i was sacked for exceeding expectation. this game is put on the shelves unfinished so it should say on the box THIS GAME ISN'T FINISHED but then they wouldn't sell as many.

if you claim i don't have the right to complain then i say to si and sega that they don't have the right to put the game on the shelves until these ''fatal'' bugs have been corrected.

before fm08 i have never been particularly disappointed with the fm series game out of the box so i was surprised when this one was so incomplete.

Lol....Made me laugh...'fatal' bugs....lol....do they come out of the screen and kill you. The OP is the most annoyed person I think I've ever read about.

Keep up the good work...It's hilarious.

You are choosing to play unpatched. You have no right to moan about any bugs in the unpatched version.

Surely £35 gives him the right to moan about it. Would you buy a car that had 3 wheels if they were to give you a 4th, three months later?

Surely £35 gives him the right to moan about it. Would you buy a car that had 3 wheels if they were to give you a 4th, three months later?

did the game advertise that it was bug free?

it's just a chance u need to take.

did the game advertise that it was bug free?

it's just a chance u need to take.

Point taken, but if he's getting sacked after 4 seasons because of a stupid bug thats out of his control, then surely he has the right to complain, because the whole point of the game he payed £35 for, has gone!

Admittedly the game doesnt say 'may include bugs' but are there any PC games that come out now that dont include some sort of bug or glitch?

SI always seem to work to fix anything thats got through without being noticed, and kudos for that. Maybe they shouldnt release the game without more testing, maybe they shouldnt release the game without more fix'es, maybe people would post threads whining about a bug that was fixed in the first patch not too long after release.

I started a game day of release with Blyth, i knew pretty early about the bug which is mentione, but i patched with each version and its never ever effected me. If people patch when they come out you find most major bugs dont occur.

To compare FM08 to a car being sold with 3 wheels is stupid. Its not a car is it, you cant compare it to one because no one would buy a car with 3 wheels unless its a Robin ffs.

Compare it to other games, do they release with bugs? Yes.

Do they always try and fix the bugs? If they are major yes, if minor no, not always.

He is not getting sacked for something thats out of his control, just as easy as he bought the game, he can patch it. No one is going to pretend its not annoying, it is. But what couyld have been done to stop it had been and he didnt patch up. SI's fault for releasing a game with the bug, SI's good work for making a patch to solve it.

Garfs fault for not patching.

I had your Ipsh*t problem with Witton Albion, it was nearing the end of the season that i over acheieved and it looked likely i wouldn't get a new deal so i patched my game and it was fixed, really no big deal and was easily dealt with.

To be quite frank it's your own fault.

I'd like to ask a few questions and would like some serious answers:

1. How did the FM Testers not spot the bug that affected his Ipswich game? I assume the testers play through 10+ seasons to spot any bugs and that situation must have happened to one of them. I have no knowledge at all of how game testing works, but I assume the most sensible way would be to give at least some testers a brief of "play the game like you would normally and complete 10 seasons and report everything that doesnt work like you would expect."

2. I would say that getting sacked renders that particular game unplayable. Can anyone actually give me the names of any other PC game that contains bugs that renders your particular save unplayable. A direct comparison would be situations such as in a war game, invading another country so quickly, the game penalises you by saying Game Over. Being sacked is just like that.

People always seem to say "lots of PC games have bugs" but I can't think of any. Can someone please elaborate?

Thanks.

Garfs fault for not patching.

To be quite frank it's your own fault.

No offense meant, but why can't you people at least read the whole thread before claiming it's all his fault?

my ipswich save was pre any patch back in october/novemeber

Absolutely no need for any patronizing comments here.

Game was only released 18th October, patch wasnt too long afterwards.

People always seem to say "lots of PC games have bugs" but I can't think of any. Can someone please elaborate?

Thanks.

Medal of honour always had glitches and bugs that alter gameplay. Standing in certain area's can make you invisible.

Old games like Delta force had similar problems.

LAst game i bought outside FM was Company of hero'es, and found a bug that i couldnt get past without re starting my game.

My team Cherbourg (League 1 2012/13) are building a new stadium, this cost £20 million (its only going to be an improvement of 7k seats)BUT at the same time they announced it they took out a £20 million loan. It seems odd that Boulougne didn't take out a loan to cover a 13million investment AND that its costing 13 mil to expand, I've never seen an expansion cost that much. What I'd do is wait it out and see if the club puts money into the club to stop it from going into administration, if it goes into admin I'd either quit (if i was about to lose a lot of players) or stick it out if I had people on longer contracts (I'm not sure about what happens when a user controlled club goes into admin so this might not be applicable).

It's now a fact that virtually every software product will have errors on release and will require patching to fix.

Developers are given deadlines by producers, to meet those deadlines they use shortcuts.

Some developers create new stuff then bolt old stuff onto it, others like MS just bolt new/shiny stuff onto thier old stuff (thats why you'll find krnl386 from win3.1 in xp & later products), i don't pretend to know which system SI use but when pushed by a rapidly closing deadline they will follow 1 of them.

I like FM, but i NEVER buy it on release day, i get the demo and check out the new shiny stuff, even if i like the new stuff enough i still wait till patch 2 comes out, then i buy the game.

In a perfect world of course, software released for sale would be flawless and work perfectly as intended, however we do not live in a perfect world.

Admittedly the game doesnt say 'may include bugs' but are there any PC games that come out now that dont include some sort of bug or glitch?

SI always seem to work to fix anything thats got through without being noticed, and kudos for that. Maybe they shouldnt release the game without more testing, maybe they shouldnt release the game without more fix'es, maybe people would post threads whining about a bug that was fixed in the first patch not too long after release.

I started a game day of release with Blyth, i knew pretty early about the bug which is mentione, but i patched with each version and its never ever effected me. If people patch when they come out you find most major bugs dont occur.

To compare FM08 to a car being sold with 3 wheels is stupid. Its not a car is it, you cant compare it to one because no one would buy a car with 3 wheels unless its a Robin ffs.

Compare it to other games, do they release with bugs? Yes.

Do they always try and fix the bugs? If they are major yes, if minor no, not always.

He is not getting sacked for something thats out of his control, just as easy as he bought the game, he can patch it. No one is going to pretend its not annoying, it is. But what couyld have been done to stop it had been and he didnt patch up. SI's fault for releasing a game with the bug, SI's good work for making a patch to solve it.

Garfs fault for not patching.

i didn't patch because no patch existed when i had this problem

I had your Ipsh*t problem with Witton Albion, it was nearing the end of the season that i over acheieved and it looked likely i wouldn't get a new deal so i patched my game and it was fixed, really no big deal and was easily dealt with.

To be quite frank it's your own fault.

once again it wasn't my fault because there was no patch in existence when i had this problem, it was in october last year, read the whole thread before you go blaming.

No offense meant, but why can't you people at least read the whole thread before claiming it's all his fault?

Absolutely no need for any patronizing comments here.

thanks for your support

Game was only released 18th October, patch wasnt too long afterwards.

but there was no patch, not even the beta, it was about 4-5 days after release

I'd like to ask a few questions and would like some serious answers:

1. How did the FM Testers not spot the bug that affected his Ipswich game? I assume the testers play through 10+ seasons to spot any bugs and that situation must have happened to one of them. I have no knowledge at all of how game testing works, but I assume the most sensible way would be to give at least some testers a brief of "play the game like you would normally and complete 10 seasons and report everything that doesnt work like you would expect."

2. I would say that getting sacked renders that particular game unplayable. Can anyone actually give me the names of any other PC game that contains bugs that renders your particular save unplayable. A direct comparison would be situations such as in a war game, invading another country so quickly, the game penalises you by saying Game Over. Being sacked is just like that.

People always seem to say "lots of PC games have bugs" but I can't think of any. Can someone please elaborate?

Thanks.

spot on, it was unplayable.

i didn't patch because no patch existed when i had this problem

so in 4 days you played a great 4 seasons without making multi saves and then goit sacked, so you wasted 4 days.

Now forgive me for sounding rather nasty here. But ffs, man up a little. Hardly the end of the world is it. For every bit of the negative it is, there is a positive. SI got the patch out very very quickly. 4 days for a game patch is superb.

Whats unplayable for one, isnt for someone else.

I think in the first 4 days of release, id not even played half a season. and it was played many many hours of those first days.

thats what i was just about to say 4 seasons in 4 days omg you must have played it non stop suppose its your fault for being so keen!

I think the OP has a very valid point, saying its 'his own fault' shows a serious lack of thought on what is a pretty valid issue. So the real issue here is not just SI but the whole games/software industry. How do we get to a point where it is pretty much acceptable industry standard that a product is released for general sale with known bugs/defects? In what other industry would this be considered acceptable? The 'three wheeled car' analogy is not too far off the mark when you think about it. The basic fact of it is, they do it because they can get away with it. If a car (or pretty much any other product I can think of) is found to contain serious flaws across the line, they either have to recall it or pay for consumers of that product to have it fixed (ie under warranty).

Now in the games/software industry, the 'patch' is pretty much the industry equivalent of the recall. Is this acceptable? Well that probably depends on the consumers point of view. Downloading a patch is certainly easier than sending a product back to manufacturer for repair, but it actually costs the consumer (while the patch is free, the internet time is not). In this sense, the manufacturer could be seen to be exploiting the consumers ability to 'fix' the product post-release relatively easily. Now this is certainly questionable practice, and the fact that it is now basically standard industry practice (as another poster pointed out) is to me concerning, because the developers are only going to get slacker, looking to cut more corners and looking to get the product to market earlier where their unpayed testers (ie consumers) will find the bugs for them, some of which will be deemed major enough to require a patch.

Now to my thinking, the only way this will change is if we consumers make them change. Likely to happen? I think not. But i wonder if the 'majority' of game consumers were adults and not adolescents, would they tolerate such treatment? I can tell you what I'd be doing with my three-wheeled car!!!

"pretty much acceptable industry standard that a product is released for general sale with known bugs/defects?"

If they were known the manufacturer would get rid of them? also i like the fact the people say this then moan if a game takes longer to become released because there fixing a bug or flaw, its a no win situation, i buy FM cause its the best footy man GAME out there and is enjoyable and how many cars do you know you can buy for £35 quid with three wheels with the fourth coming later on? yeah none

There were hundreds of threads similar to this about the poor quality of FM08 when it was first released. There were also similarly a minority of ignorant people blindly defending SI by saying it was the gamers/consumers' fault. There was, however, no doubt to any reasonable person that FM 08 was poor untill 8.0.1 was released a few months after initial release.

I am eager to see what happens this year with FM09 and FMLive.

did the game advertise that it was bug free?

it's just a chance u need to take.

Thats the most stupid thing I have read on this forum in a while. You pay your money expecting the product you receive to be up to a minimum standard of quality. FM08 was not up to this standard, in fact it was a joke.

I totally agree that most major bugs should be picked up in testing etc. However I think going along with that we also need to have a go at all those people who flood these forums in the months leading up to the games release saying "OMG when is the game out!!!! I need it now, stupid SI release it earlier ARRGGH!!!!!!"

Now obviously SI shouldn't cave into these people and I'm sure they don't but I still think it's a point worth making that people cry and scream for the game to be released and then come straight back and complain about bugs etc.(not suggesting that anyone in here has done that, just a general observation)

read the whole thread before you go blaming.

Naaaaa. It's far more fun to hastily throw around some blame.

Thats the most stupid thing I have read on this forum in a while. You pay your money expecting the product you receive to be up to a minimum standard of quality. FM08 was not up to this standard, in fact it was a joke.

Well if you expected FM08 to be flawless out-of-the-box, then you are the joke sir.. - No FM has ever been bug-free and all have had problems pre-patch. It must be apparent to people by now that some bugs, minor and major, are to be expected so deal with it.. Dont buy the game if a bug like the above mentioned ruins the game for you..

However, of course these bugs shouldnt be there in the first place, but thats how it is and probably will be for every FM release from and to forever. Any analogy with cars or other products is just plain silly. ALL products have flaws, some more than others.. Some mobilephones suddenly overheat and explode, some laptop have burnt the owners thies, some cars have faulty brakesystems, some cereals have had insects in them and milk is sometimes gone bad even though the expiration date hasnt passed.. I dont see you writing letters to Nokia, Dell, Ford, Kellogg's or Arla, but somehow people think its so obvious to post on this forum, ranting about how unprofessional SI are to release such a unfinished product..

Well if you expected FM08 to be flawless out-of-the-box, then you are the joke sir.. - No FM has ever been bug-free and all have had problems pre-patch. It must be apparent to people by now that some bugs, minor and major, are to be expected so deal with it.. Dont buy the game if a bug like the above mentioned ruins the game for you..

However, of course these bugs shouldnt be there in the first place, but thats how it is and probably will be for every FM release from and to forever. Any analogy with cars or other products is just plain silly. ALL products have flaws, some more than others.. Some mobilephones suddenly overheat and explode, some laptop have burnt the owners thies, some cars have faulty brakesystems, some cereals have had insects in them and milk is sometimes gone bad even though the expiration date hasnt passed.. I dont see you writing letters to Nokia, Dell, Ford, Kellogg's or Arla, but somehow people think its so obvious to post on this forum, ranting about how unprofessional SI are to release such a unfinished product..

There's an apparent distinction between 'flawless' and 'playable' but you apparently do not understand it and proceed your whole argument based on that non-understanding.

In another words, we expect the game to be playable out of the box and that is not a joke sir .. - No FM besides FM08 has ever been unplayable and all have had only minor problems pre-patch. It must be apparent to you by now that major bugs which make the game unplayable should never be expected so that we do not have to deal with an unplayable game.. Do not buy the game if a bug like the above mentioned ruins the game for you..but what if you have already bought the game expecting it to meet the ordinary reasonable standard of a game which is 'playable'?

Of course these bugs which make the game unplayable should not be there in the first place, but thats how it is and probably will be for every FM release from now and to forever. That is why I am raising this issue again and reminding SI that many gamers have lost faith on the quality of FM at initial release. Your analogy with cars or other products are very useful to illustrate our point. All products have flaws, some more than others.. Some mobilephones suddenly overheat and explode, some laptop have burnt the owners thies, some cars have faulty brakesystems, some cereals have had insects in them and milk is sometimes gone bad even though the expiration date hasnt passed.. And the law means that the manufacturers of those products are liable for damages to the consumers. You do not see us writing letters to Nokia, Dell, Ford, Kellogg's or Arla, that is because we could obtain compensation exercising our legal rights. Somehow people think its so obvious to post on this forum, denying the basic rights that consumers have, not to seek compensation from SI, but only to talk about how unprofessional SI are to release such a unfinished product..

There's an apparent distinction between 'flawless' and 'playable' but you apparently do not understand it and proceed your whole argument based on that non-understanding.

You dont realize that thinking is allowed, do you? - Well, didnt think so.. So I better explain: (no worries, I'll leave the big words out for your convenience)

When I said flawless I meant "without any major bugs that renders the game unplayable for you". I assumed (wrongly, sadly) that people knew that i didnt mean that anyone expected the game REALLY be flawless.

Please do tell if you need further elaboration.. I love to help the less fortunate

Sorry I have just edited my post...took me some time

Sorry I have just edited my post...took me some time

Well, I think your post was unplayable as it didnt live up to my expectations.. Is this this is a joke and that I expect you to fully test your post and wipe out any major or minor "bugs" otherwise I'll never read your posts again..!

See how pointless it is?

Of course the game should be playable out-of-the-box. But what is "playable"? For me it means, "game doesnt crash" or something similar. Literally, UNPLAYABLE.. For others it means that the game cannot have ANY bug at all.. The bug with board sacking you for exceeding expectations is extremely annoying (got hit by it too), but unplayable? No.. I just started up a new game with a team with lower expectations.. and then after the 4 days and the patch was out, the bug was gone.. Hardly anything to call the game joke for is it? Annoying, yes.. unplayable.. well maybe for some, but IMO only the extremely "whiny" ones

Well, I think your post was unplayable as it didnt live up to my expectations.. Is this this is a joke and that I expect you to fully test your post and wipe out any major or minor "bugs" otherwise I'll never read your posts again..!

See how pointless it is?

Of course the game should be playable out-of-the-box. But what is "playable"? For me it means, "game doesnt crash" or something similar. Literally, UNPLAYABLE.. For others it means that the game cannot have ANY bug at all.. The bug with board sacking you for exceeding expectations is extremely annoying (got hit by it too), but unplayable? No.. I just started up a new game with a team with lower expectations.. and then after the 4 days and the patch was out, the bug was gone.. Hardly anything to call the game joke for is it? Annoying, yes.. unplayable.. well maybe for some, but IMO only the extremely "whiny" ones

I am afraid that I think you have failed to articulate your point and failed to answer my post.

Oh well.. I guess some are just out of reach.. I give up

Well if you expected FM08 to be flawless out-of-the-box, then you are the joke sir.. - No FM has ever been bug-free and all have had problems pre-patch. It must be apparent to people by now that some bugs, minor and major, are to be expected so deal with it.. Dont buy the game if a bug like the above mentioned ruins the game for you..

However, of course these bugs shouldnt be there in the first place, but thats how it is and probably will be for every FM release from and to forever. Any analogy with cars or other products is just plain silly. ALL products have flaws, some more than others.. Some mobilephones suddenly overheat and explode, some laptop have burnt the owners thies, some cars have faulty brakesystems, some cereals have had insects in them and milk is sometimes gone bad even though the expiration date hasnt passed.. I dont see you writing letters to Nokia, Dell, Ford, Kellogg's or Arla, but somehow people think its so obvious to post on this forum, ranting about how unprofessional SI are to release such a unfinished product..

I am afraid you obviously suffer from having far too much money, because when I buy a product and it is faulty I return it. If the shop/company refuses to replace the faulty product I complain, firstly to the relevant consumer watchdog, then to other consumers warning them of the shoddy workmanship, and that is purely what people are doin on these forums. Warning other consumers of shoddy workmanship.

FM08 was unplayable not because it had bugs (I excpet it will have some). It was unplayable because it had literally loads of them. These all added up to make the game unplayable. It wasn't one bug that made the game unplayable for me, it was the build up of all of them! The game should never have been released as it was, it was shocking.

At the end of the day, if you can add yourself as a manager to a team of your choice, buy players, sign players, win cups and leagues, play matches, do your training etc... then the game is PLAYABLE! You are doing what any football manager is doing so where exactly is the problem? Of course it will have bugs, at first but that's what the patches are for so if you don't like it stop buying the game and F*** OFF off these forums and complain to people who actually F***ING care!!!

Spot on son, you dont like it go play Champ manager

I am afraid you obviously suffer from having far too much money, because when I buy a product and it is faulty I return it. If the shop/company refuses to replace the faulty product I complain, firstly to the relevant consumer watchdog, then to other consumers warning them of the shoddy workmanship, and that is purely what people are doin on these forums. Warning other consumers of shoddy workmanship.

FM08 was unplayable not because it had bugs (I excpet it will have some). It was unplayable because it had literally loads of them. These all added up to make the game unplayable. It wasn't one bug that made the game unplayable for me, it was the build up of all of them! The game should never have been released as it was, it was shocking.

That is fair enough that you feel the game was not enjoyable for you and that you then returned the game. But the game isnt unplayable nor is it faulty. Yes it has bugs, but in most cases they were minor and mostly unnoticable bugs. There were a few larger bugs that made the game behave in a not-planned manner (such as the board-expectation bug).

This has nothing to do with money.. I would also return a product that I bought that didnt work, but the thing is that FM works.. And if you did manage to return the game to a shop because of some bugs.. well either the clerk was very kind that day or he/she allowed you to return it because they didnt want to go into a discussion about whether the bugs made it unplayable or not - The fact is that they are not obligated to let you return the game since it works..

Just find it funny how some can find a game "unplayable" because they had to go through 4 whole days with some bugs.. and they STILL moan over the bugs that were fixed in a patch that was released close to YEAR ago. Just get over it and dont buy FM2009 and everyone will be happy..

Thread's gone off-topic quite quickly.

Re: Boulogne. Dude, wake up. You play with a team from the french lower league and you expect to have both the cash and reputation to attract Zarate and such? I know it's frustrating, but that's how it should be. You can't expect every club you manage to be a money-making venture. When I managed Marseille, I had to be in the Champions League, otherwise my club would lose about half a million annually. Can't see what you want SI to "fix" there really.

I think the OP has a very valid point, saying its 'his own fault' shows a serious lack of thought on what is a pretty valid issue. So the real issue here is not just SI but the whole games/software industry. How do we get to a point where it is pretty much acceptable industry standard that a product is released for general sale with known bugs/defects? In what other industry would this be considered acceptable? The 'three wheeled car' analogy is not too far off the mark when you think about it. The basic fact of it is, they do it because they can get away with it. If a car (or pretty much any other product I can think of) is found to contain serious flaws across the line, they either have to recall it or pay for consumers of that product to have it fixed (ie under warranty).

Now in the games/software industry, the 'patch' is pretty much the industry equivalent of the recall. Is this acceptable? Well that probably depends on the consumers point of view. Downloading a patch is certainly easier than sending a product back to manufacturer for repair, but it actually costs the consumer (while the patch is free, the internet time is not). In this sense, the manufacturer could be seen to be exploiting the consumers ability to 'fix' the product post-release relatively easily. Now this is certainly questionable practice, and the fact that it is now basically standard industry practice (as another poster pointed out) is to me concerning, because the developers are only going to get slacker, looking to cut more corners and looking to get the product to market earlier where their unpayed testers (ie consumers) will find the bugs for them, some of which will be deemed major enough to require a patch.

Now to my thinking, the only way this will change is if we consumers make them change. Likely to happen? I think not. But i wonder if the 'majority' of game consumers were adults and not adolescents, would they tolerate such treatment? I can tell you what I'd be doing with my three-wheeled car!!!

Sorry the three wheeled car is a billion miles off, this is not a car we are on about its a game. Why people try and make analogies that have no relation to the product in question is beyond belief. Car with three wheels the other being delivered a month after does NOT equal FM on release. If you or someone cant see that or understand or even make a point without having to use an analogy about something different then you need to try harder to explain your thoughts.

Thats the most stupid thing I have read on this forum in a while. You pay your money expecting the product you receive to be up to a minimum standard of quality. FM08 was not up to this standard, in fact it was a joke.

Congratulations on your opinion, im sure if you look you will find a lot of people with different ones, they explain their opinions though. The game isnt a joke, it is playable out of the box. There is no one who is saying there are no bugs, but i started a game out of the box, patched when patches came out and ive not had a problem at all. Ive found other bugs, (one that no one else seemed to find) and reported them to SI as if they stayed in they could be manipulated. But to call the game a joke is a little silly.

I am afraid you obviously suffer from having far too much money, because when I buy a product and it is faulty I return it. If the shop/company refuses to replace the faulty product I complain, firstly to the relevant consumer watchdog, then to other consumers warning them of the shoddy workmanship, and that is purely what people are doin on these forums. Warning other consumers of shoddy workmanship.

FM08 was unplayable not because it had bugs (I excpet it will have some). It was unplayable because it had literally loads of them. These all added up to make the game unplayable. It wasn't one bug that made the game unplayable for me, it was the build up of all of them! The game should never have been released as it was, it was shocking.

Ive explained above why i think your opinion is wrong, the game for me was playable out of the box, the amount of bugs didnt effect me, the game continued. See also FMO forum to realise the game was playable out of the box. EUC clan played from the go and had a very good game.