"It's your tactics"... Well, it's not

First of all - this is not going to be a thread about how the game cheats, but I'm going to talk about few things that frustrate me to a point of getting very, very angry... And - which is even worse - it's equally frustrating and addictive at the same time.

1) Is there an attribute for blindness? Is there any other way to explain what my players are doing in front of the goal, especially when they're somewhere about penalty area line - trying CONSTANTLY to shoot at the goal and not noticing the defender standing EXACTLY in front of them in a distance of 30 cm? And by constantly I mean about 20 deflected/charged down shots (at least) a game. My players seem to like it - they shoot even at their team-mates, indirect free kick, player A passes to player B standing less than a yard from player A and then player B tries to kill his team-mate with a football. What makes me sad (more than it makes me effing angry) is that the opposing players are doing it at max 2-3 times a game...

2) Why when watching 2D match (especially when compared to previous version, including almost perfect 2007) I feel like watching someone playing a bloody pinball? Opposing goalkeeper kicks the ball, and the ball just bounces off my defender - 5 meters, 10 meters, whatever you like (and it has a tendency to fall to the feet of the opposing player who is coincindentally standing exactly where he should to start a counter attack... One goal down, more to follow). But the even more funny part is when a player is running to the ball and it passes by him, but he needs at least 5-8 meters to stop and go after the fall (must be brakes failure, cause he looks exactly like a car, sliding without ABS, trying to stop at the wet surface).

3) Why my wingers ALWAYS need to get to the end line to cross the ball? And why this means that 80-90% of those crosses result in corners? Is that something to do with point 1), because it really looks like thay don't notice opposing player who is standing in between them and the penalty area.

4) How (with which invisible slider/tickbox) can I convince my players to pass the ball when they're under pressure (or when just standing few meters from the opposition, with PLENTY of options to play the ball wide, short, long)? I don't think that all of them are fans of Hitchock-like suspense and they just to love to feel the tension of watching the opposing player, to whom they just gave away the ball, one on one with the goalkeeper... First touch? What's that? Some kind of sexual abuse? Because it's not an attribute, that's for sure.

5) How to convince the fans that losing (playing as Forest, newly promoted to the Championship) that losing away 1-2 to a top Premiership side is nothing to be ashamed of? That we've been a better team, just unlucky (blind)? That the opposition had TWO shots on target and we had 15?

It's a fourth or fifth time I start a new game of FM, trying different tactics, approach, transfers, everything... And it always ends the same way - after another nightmare evening with FM 08 I change a CD in the drive and get back to FM 07 which was (still is!) fun - and not dramatically less realistic than FM 08...

OK, rant over. Now I'm waiting for the obvious: IT'S YOUR TACTICS!

My favourite one is when the ball stops 2 yards from your by line, the defender runs over to is and has a 1st touch like Gary Glitter and it always results in a corner because they dont have a good 1st touch rating.

Do many players IRL struggle to get a stopped ball under control? I laugh at the "its your tactics", its what the fanboys resort to when they have nothing else to offer.

1) Is there an attribute for blindness? Is there any other way to explain what my players are doing in front of the goal, especially when they're somewhere about penalty area line - trying CONSTANTLY to shoot at the goal and not noticing the defender standing EXACTLY in front of them in a distance of 30 cm? And by constantly I mean about 20 deflected/charged down shots (at least) a game. My players seem to like it - they shoot even at their team-mates, indirect free kick, player A passes to player B standing less than a yard from player A and then player B tries to kill his team-mate with a football. What makes me sad (more than it makes me effing angry) is that the opposing players are doing it at max 2-3 times a game...

Can't say I've ever noticed that. Anyone else? Never ever seen 20 deflected shots in a FM match.

2) Why when watching 2D match (especially when compared to previous version, including almost perfect 2007) I feel like watching someone playing a bloody pinball? Opposing goalkeeper kicks the ball, and the ball just bounces off my defender - 5 meters, 10 meters, whatever you like (and it has a tendency to fall to the feet of the opposing player who is coincindentally standing exactly where he should to start a counter attack... One goal down, more to follow). But the even more funny part is when a player is running to the ball and it passes by him, but he needs at least 5-8 meters to stop and go after the fall (must be brakes failure, cause he looks exactly like a car, sliding without ABS, trying to stop at the wet surface).

The ball doesn't just 'bounce' off defenders. They head it sure, they may head it to the wrong area. It's a bit hard to represent that from a top down circle.

3) Why my wingers ALWAYS need to get to the end line to cross the ball? And why this means that 80-90% of those crosses result in corners? Is that something to do with point 1), because it really looks like thay don't notice opposing player who is standing in between them and the penalty area.

Doesn't this happen ALOT in most matches? You tend to get corners from trying to cross the ball. If you don't want the ball crossed from the byline change it in your tactics (yes, it's your tactics). You can tell your players where to cross from.

4) How (with which invisible slider/tickbox) can I convince my players to pass the ball when they're under pressure (or when just standing few meters from the opposition, with PLENTY of options to play the ball wide, short, long)? I don't think that all of them are fans of Hitchock-like suspense and they just to love to feel the tension of watching the opposing player, to whom they just gave away the ball, one on one with the goalkeeper... First touch? What's that? Some kind of sexual abuse? Because it's not an attribute, that's for sure.

First touch isn't going to help your player pass the ball under pressure, I wouldn't have thought. Are you on patch 8.0.2?

5) How to convince the fans that losing (playing as Forest, newly promoted to the Championship) that losing away 1-2 to a top Premiership side is nothing to be ashamed of? That we've been a better team, just unlucky (blind)? That the opposition had TWO shots on target and we had 15?

The confidence feature is a very poorly implemented one. Ignore it. I haven't used it once in my 2024 game. It will get fixed for 09.

My favourite one is when the ball stops 2 yards from your by line, the defender runs over to is and has a 1st touch like Gary Glitter and it always results in a corner because they dont have a good 1st touch rating.

Can't say I've ever seen that either.

Do many players IRL struggle to get a stopped ball under control? I laugh at the "its your tactics", its what the fanboys resort to when they have nothing else to offer.

Sometimes it is, but mostly it does come down to tactics. Sometimes in the sense of the real footballing world, it doesn't make 100% sense BUT this is a game. Sometimes you have to do what you can to beat it.

1. I never see that many deflected shots in a match. I certainly see some every match, though.

2. I think this is usually a "Poor First Touch" as well. What's particularly odd to me is that the commentary at that point will say "_Defender_ brings it forward" .. or otherwise implies that he thinks he was trying to do it intentionally. I'd like a commentary line along the lines of "_Defender_ can't control it..."

3. My wingers don't always go to the byline - but that's because I got frustrated with them doing so, and spent a good chunk of time working on getting the Cristiano Ronaldo-esque best out of my wingers. Learned a lot about a bunch of different tactical settings that I hadn't previously known.

4. That sounds like "Hold Up Ball" or "Run With Ball" for the players in question, maybe a low Tempo. Definitely something you can work on tactically - yeah, I still occasinally wind up with a player caught in possession, but for the most part my players don't do what you're describing.

And philly's two:

I see that poor "First Touch" bit frequently, players at both ends of the pitch and the sideline seem willing to touch a ball across a line out of play, rather than doing their best to bring it back into play. Again, the commentary reads ".. brings it forward" or something, so I'd like that changed .. but I'd also like to see a new move added to the match engine where the player first does a bit of judgment about whether he should let it go and win the goal kick, throw, or corner ... and if he has to try and play it to retain possession, does a hook-slide and uncontrolled touch towards a "safe" or "dangerous" area. In other words, at the goal line, the defender's hook-slide should aim to put it out into touch. On a sideline, the player's hook-slide should aim to put it towards one of his teammates. At the byline, an attacker's hook-slide should look for one of his teammates, or just get it into the penalty area and hope for a lucky bounce. So, perfectly valid point and nothing you can do about it tactically that I've found.

Do many players IRL struggle to get a stopped ball under control? Not every time, no - but I've certainly seen plenty of moments where a slowly moving or stopped ball presents more trouble than you'd expect due to the player failing to keep his balance, not being agile enough, having his footwork off, etc. None of these things get represented in the match engine well enough that we can tell when they're presenting themselves. Its the same as a missed shot: in a match I watched IRL recently, the ball came into the six where a player was sliding through to put it home. Unfortunately, he slid over the top of the ball and got it trapped under him. Still on the ground, he wound up trying to play it back to one of his teammates.

In FM, I'd have been screaming at the monitor: "My striker, with an open net inside the six, paused on the ball, waited a second or two, and then passed back to his teammate? WHAT?!"

... because the commentary, replay, post-match, etc, simply don't have the range to express to me that that's what happened.

It wasn't the manager's tactics, obviously - it was a simple physical (or concentration) failure.

My favourite one is when the ball stops 2 yards from your by line, the defender runs over to is and has a 1st touch like Gary Glitter and it always results in a corner because they dont have a good 1st touch rating.

I have noticed this too, many times. Can't be sure but I think it has been mostly with lower league clubs with crappy players. No pressure from opposition, player just runs there and kicks(touches) it over the line for a corner. It's obvious to see that he was trying to get the ball, not kick it out. It actually looks quite funny when it happens.

Has ive mentioned, FM 2008 tends to be frustrating sometimes...

For me, the problem is that defensive tactics don't ever work. Whenever I set the mentality below balanced, I always concede, which is somewhat paradoxical. FM seems to show that the best defense is a good offense so I don't even bother switching to a defensive tactic anymore, just move some players to DM and deepen the backline. It usually works, but the AI is still too good at comebacks. They'll be completely blanked throughout the game and just come alive in the last 5 minutes.

Oh and keepers...

They save pretty much every 1v1/surefire goal opportunity yet let long shots phase right through their bodies. Good job. And sometimes they let those painfully slow rolling shots plod by them from 25 yards. Annoying.

another one to add to your list is.

why does it seem that if i score a goal & go ahead in the last 20 minutes, the computer will simulate countless opportunities for the opposition whether they score or not. yet when the computer scores in the last 20 minutes of a game i am often lucky to get a chance before the clock speeds itself to 90 minutes & blows for time.

sorry for being so vague, i'm tired but had to contribute, will edit tomorrow. (TouchWood)

another one to add to your list is.

why does it seem that if i score a goal & go ahead in the last 20 minutes, the computer will simulate countless opportunities for the opposition whether they score or not. yet when the computer scores in the last 20 minutes of a game i am often lucky to get a chance before the clock speeds itself to 90 minutes & blows for time.

sorry for being so vague, i'm tired but had to contribute, will edit tomorrow. (TouchWood)

Because they go 4-2-4 and you don't change your tactics?

One of the things that frustrates me in this match engine is when the other team clears the ball to one of your players and he's in acres of space and heads the ball back to the opposing team or out of bounds. It always happens with players who have poor heading and jumping attributes and it certainly makes sense to trap the ball instead of head it, but they almost always head it and give possession back to the other team. I thought it might be linked to tempo, but it really shouldn't matter as its so basic to trap the ball instead of head it when you have space.

Because they go 4-2-4 and you don't change your tactics?

i don't?

yes, i've sat there 10s of times & instead of trying to defend, i've infact done nothing.

when you assume in such a non-sensicle way it perpetuates an ego. i'm (relatively) new to the site but believe me i'm far from new to this series to assume that i 'don't change' my tactics is an insult, not to me but to your own intelligence. nice use of a question mark but please don't insult a fellow players intelligence with such a stupid 'question', when it goes without saying that i'd change my tactics.

when i say this has happened 10s of times, i litterally mean 10s of times, i'd say 100s but don't like being so dramatic. i HAVE changed my tactics numerous times yet experience the same results. my 'problem' wasn't with teams 'coming back' it's with the fact that when i go behond it seems the computer can't wait to get to the 90th minute yet when i go ahead the computers runs 10 scenarios within the 15 minute period, usually in the computers favour. my problem is that (on numerous occasions) the computer would often ignore my changing of tactics when behind & scurry its way to the 90th minute. i even went as far as to put 5 men up front on occasions just to have some effect (i believed it may be negative but i wanted to see a direct effect of my tactics on the game) but no luck.

imy problem is, when i change tactics i would like to see a direct influence on the game; be it positive or negative. don't get me wrong, not all managers changes have a great effect but i would @ times do drastic moves just to see some sort of correlation with with my management even if bad.

First of all - this is not going to be a thread about how the game cheats, but I'm going to talk about few things that frustrate me to a point of getting very, very angry... And - which is even worse - it's equally frustrating and addictive at the same time.

1) Is there an attribute for blindness? Is there any other way to explain what my players are doing in front of the goal, especially when they're somewhere about penalty area line - trying CONSTANTLY to shoot at the goal and not noticing the defender standing EXACTLY in front of them in a distance of 30 cm? And by constantly I mean about 20 deflected/charged down shots (at least) a game. My players seem to like it - they shoot even at their team-mates, indirect free kick, player A passes to player B standing less than a yard from player A and then player B tries to kill his team-mate with a football. What makes me sad (more than it makes me effing angry) is that the opposing players are doing it at max 2-3 times a game...

2) Why when watching 2D match (especially when compared to previous version, including almost perfect 2007) I feel like watching someone playing a bloody pinball? Opposing goalkeeper kicks the ball, and the ball just bounces off my defender - 5 meters, 10 meters, whatever you like (and it has a tendency to fall to the feet of the opposing player who is coincindentally standing exactly where he should to start a counter attack... One goal down, more to follow). But the even more funny part is when a player is running to the ball and it passes by him, but he needs at least 5-8 meters to stop and go after the fall (must be brakes failure, cause he looks exactly like a car, sliding without ABS, trying to stop at the wet surface).

3) Why my wingers ALWAYS need to get to the end line to cross the ball? And why this means that 80-90% of those crosses result in corners? Is that something to do with point 1), because it really looks like thay don't notice opposing player who is standing in between them and the penalty area.

4) How (with which invisible slider/tickbox) can I convince my players to pass the ball when they're under pressure (or when just standing few meters from the opposition, with PLENTY of options to play the ball wide, short, long)? I don't think that all of them are fans of Hitchock-like suspense and they just to love to feel the tension of watching the opposing player, to whom they just gave away the ball, one on one with the goalkeeper... First touch? What's that? Some kind of sexual abuse? Because it's not an attribute, that's for sure.

5) How to convince the fans that losing (playing as Forest, newly promoted to the Championship) that losing away 1-2 to a top Premiership side is nothing to be ashamed of? That we've been a better team, just unlucky (blind)? That the opposition had TWO shots on target and we had 15?

It's a fourth or fifth time I start a new game of FM, trying different tactics, approach, transfers, everything... And it always ends the same way - after another nightmare evening with FM 08 I change a CD in the drive and get back to FM 07 which was (still is!) fun - and not dramatically less realistic than FM 08...

OK, rant over. Now I'm waiting for the obvious: IT'S YOUR TACTICS!

We're gonna have to change the line people! Forget 'It's not your tactics'.

Let's just say 'It's the CPU's tactics'

when you assume in such a non-sensicle way it perpetuates an ego.

I was simply asking a question, it wasn't meant to offend. I didn't assume anything.

nice use of a question mark but please don't insult a fellow players intelligence with such a stupid 'question', when it goes without saying that i'd change my tactics.

You'd be surprised how many people on here moan about the 4-2-4 but don't do anything about it. The question mark is there because I was asking a question. It was not intended to be anything other than that.

I was simply asking a question, it wasn't meant to offend. I didn't assume anything.

You'd be surprised how many people on here moan about the 4-2-4 but don't do anything about it. The question mark is there because I was asking a question. It was not intended to be anything other than that.

i can understand that but i've played this game long enough to know about something as remedial as this, accepted you wouldn't know this from one simple post.

my anger is toward the game more so than yourself, as i've said i've attacked, defended & stayed the same & (although not all the time) on a fair amount of occasions comfortable leads have been blown due to an 'over-active' final 15 minutes. where as comebacks haven't even been attempted when i will go All-Out-Attack & not see so much as a shot from distance or a Counter-Attack against me for being so reckless. i continually see nothing.

my anger is toward the game more so than yourself, as i've said i've attacked, defended & stayed the same & (although not all the time) on a fair amount of occasions comfortable leads have been blown due to an 'over-active' final 15 minutes. where as comebacks haven't even been attempted when i will go All-Out-Attack & not see so much as a shot from distance or a Counter-Attack against me for being so reckless. i continually see nothing.

I agree completely with this.

This is an interesting thread as I've had "problems" with virtually everything mentioned. The "players booting it out for a throw/corner by accident" thing is directly related to FT. People who havent played with crap players/lower leagues won't have noticed it. I can see the point of it, as during the game when a player with a crap FT gets the ball, it moves too much (understandably), however, when a defender runs to a dead ball, they don't control it in the same way as during normal play, so FT shouldn't make a diff imho. It will most likely be changed in 09.

The AI getting loads of "key" replays on the 2D pitch at the end of the match if they are losing/drawing is a clear issue. And it's nothing to do with tactics, before any1 bothers to say it. This is obvious because it happens no matter what tactics/changes you make. And it doesnt mean they are gunnu score either since most of the time with my team, we are comfortably 2-0 up by the end and the computer switching to 4-2-4 just ends up with me scoring or at least getting a good chance (my tactic is excellent for countering 4-2-4). But its bloody silly - since in the space of 2 mins the AI gets about 10 "chances" (all of which are rubbish) and I get 1 and end up scoring (or at least coming close). I firmly believe this has been implemented by SI just to increase the tension at the end of the game, nothing more.

Flu, reading your original post:

why does it seem that if i score a goal & go ahead in the last 20 minutes, the computer will simulate countless opportunities for the opposition whether they score or not. yet when the computer scores in the last 20 minutes of a game i am often lucky to get a chance before the clock speeds itself to 90 minutes & blows for time.

I'd have a very different focus than Neji's.

It sounds like your frustration isn't the opposition getting opportunities, but the fact that the game speeds by without a single highlight.

Rather than looking at your defending tactic, I'd look at your attacking tactic.

Presumably you're on Key Highlights, as most people are, or possibly Extended Highlights ... and the problem isn't that your team isn't getting possession, its that they're losing it before they get close enough to trigger a "Highlight". You need to find out why that is happening.

The only way to do that effectively is to pause the game when you are a goal down at or beyond the 70th minute and shift to "Full Highlights".

I'm not saying you're going to need to do this every single time - just that, I had much the same complaint personally back in FM .. '05? .. and once I developed the habit of shifting to "Full Highlights" I saw at once what my tactical problem was:

My players were "rushing" the ball up the pitch: in other words, and I saw this quite literally, even if the opposition had eight men back (4 defenders, all 4 midfielders), when I recovered possession in my own half (having outnumbered their 2 strikers eight to two), my players would quickly send it forward to my strikers. No matter how good my strikers were, they were horribly outnumbered, and lost possession.

With a series of changes along the lines of: slightly less attacking than I had been, much shorter passing than I had been, slower tempo than I had had, a few players clicked on "Hold Up Ball", more players getting "Forward Runs Mixed" or "Forward Runs Often", I suddenly saw a lot more realistic build-up .. my players didn't exactly linger on the ball, but they'd move it up into the opposing half, then swing it around the perimeter until they could pull the opposition out of position, and then try a killer ball. It generated chances ... and when I dropped it back down to "Extended Highlights" and then to "Key Highlights", it still generated chances.

In FM'08, incidentally, I started having this problem AS BRAZIL.

I thought I was playing my "patient buildup" tactic, as I'd come to regard it, but I had to go right back to watching it on "Full Highlights" .. well, and even better, scheduling really tough opponents away so that I could get to the 70th minute behind on purpose .. before I saw what was going wrong:

In this case, I had a lot of Creativity and a lot of Through Balls, because, well, obviously, it was Brazil! Creativity and Through Balls are the way to go, right?

Unfortunately, the Through Balls against a packed defense, tended to come into space, but closer to an experienced defender with good Anticipation and Acceleration than to the attacking player who was making the run. The defender would pick it off, clear, and thus, no highlight was shown on Key Highlights.

I reduced, believe it or not, my Creativity to average across the board, even though it was Brazil, and my Through Balls to "Mixed" all except for one playmaker in midfield. Boom, I'd cracked the "packed defense" and my Brazil went on a long unbeaten run.

I carted those changes back to my standard tactics for Brazil, and started banging in six goals against weaker teams who just tried to defend from the get-go.

. . .

The point of this post isn't to brag, or to provide specific tactical remedies ... its to describe my methodology: slow down the game, watch on Full, try to spot where things are going wrong, try tactical changes to address them, and watch how those changes play out also in Full.

Once I have the tactics sorted - and I do have to do, occasionally, when taking over a new team or after major shakeups of a squad - then I start speeding the game up again.

can it really be your tactics though? in the end it could be down to the match engine which we know is not 100 percent perfect

Certain things that the ME does aren't perfect but this is a game, no game is perfect (except FFVII ). Even though the ME may not be 100% logical, changing tactics can usually remedy it. So while the ME maybe the cause of some problems, the fix is usually a switch in tactics

But what the match engine does is use your tactics in order to simulate the match... So even if there's a problem with the match engine, you can still fix it with your tactics, meaning that your tactics are still the problem

FM does a horrible job of simulating attacking/defensive play. Go all out attack in a game and youll win say 4-2. Go defensive and youll lose 0-2.

All out attack doesnt seem to affect how many you concede and going defensive seems to stop you scoring instead of the opposition. So much so that I just stay on attack even in a 1 goal game and sometimes there will be 3 injury time goals for us and maybe another 2 between 85 and 90 mins.

Fanboys will say "its your tactics" but Id rather FM represent reality than me have to adjust to super ai formations that dont exist IRL.

Fanboys will say "its your tactics" but Id rather FM represent reality than me have to adjust to super ai formations that dont exist IRL.

Now back to the fanboy comments. It is your tactics!

I've played defensive football since FM05 and always been pretty successful with it. In fact my newest tactic in my latest save playes very attractive football but the slider in 'defensive' and I very very rarely get beaten.

What 'super ai formations' are you talking about? The game cannot have a formation which doesn't exist IRL. Every formation exists IRL.

Fanboys will say "its your tactics" but Id rather FM represent reality than me have to adjust to super ai formations that dont exist IRL.

I don't think labelling people as "fanboys" because they disagree or because they have never experienced what you have experienced is particularly appropriate and just serves to show an ignorance for the subject.

I do agree that tactics are built to beat the AI instead of replicate football, but that's the same of every game and forum users like Glamdring are proof that you can win in FM using tactics you like rather than tactics to win (with his Bremen side). As for "super ai formations", I don't understand how people can see proof that others have not suffered at the hands of 4-2-4 etc and still blame the game rather than their own tactics. That's not to say that 4-2-4 isn't irritating, it most certianly is, but it is definately avoidable and in 13 years as FC Bayern manager I have only lost after taking the lead on a handfull of occassions.

I do agree that tactics are built to beat the AI instead of replicate football, but that's the same of every game

I think thats the point here. Well put. I think that people forget this is a game and to beat a game, sometimes you have to do things which aren't 100% logical.

It's the same in almost all games.

wonder if anyones played an old style 5 - 0 - 5 to counter 4-2-4

wonder if anyones played an old style 5 - 0 - 5 to counter 4-2-4

I've played a 4-3-3 to counter 4-2-4 and went on to really humilate the other team, so it is possible.

I don't think labelling people as "fanboys" because they disagree or because they have never experienced what you have experienced is particularly appropriate and just serves to show an ignorance for the subject.

I do agree that tactics are built to beat the AI instead of replicate football, but that's the same of every game and forum users like Glamdring are proof that you can win in FM using tactics you like rather than tactics to win (with his Bremen side). As for "super ai formations", I don't understand how people can see proof that others have not suffered at the hands of 4-2-4 etc and still blame the game rather than their own tactics. That's not to say that 4-2-4 isn't irritating, it most certianly is, but it is definately avoidable and in 13 years as FC Bayern manager I have only lost after taking the lead on a handfull of occassions.

It does seem like you can't stick up for SI or defend the game without getting that damn label 'fanboy'. Most of us who do defend it can also be found criticising it heavily. There's plenty about FM that cheeses me off. It's just that, sometimes, it really is going to be your tactics. I've seen with my own eyes my team get soundly beaten due to tactical ineptitude on my part.

i play a for 4-1-4-1 ..think the trick is to not get defensive really but get more offensive than they are

I noticed when playing my AFC Wimbledon league that northport county i think..They played in orange always played a 4-2-4 from kickoff to finish

They finished second in the league

My favourite one is when the ball stops 2 yards from your by line, the defender runs over to is and has a 1st touch like Gary Glitter and it always results in a corner because they dont have a good 1st touch rating.

Do many players IRL struggle to get a stopped ball under control? I laugh at the "its your tactics", its what the fanboys resort to when they have nothing else to offer.

i've never heard anyone say 'its your tactics' to this example.

to the example of when people moan because they can't keep clean sheets then its a valid argument.

when people moan that they cann't win its a valid argument.

my wingers cross from deep they allso cut in

the keeper never kicks a ball and have it bounce off a defender for me.

it's obvious because its most ly true. its your tactics.

I've berated the quality of wingers on here not so long ago. However, I've actually finally got them working. All I had to do was reduce their 'creative freedom', and now they do more or less what I want.

The thing that's still annoying me is players shooting from stupid angles instead of pulling the ball back.

I don't think labelling people as "fanboys" because they disagree or because they have never experienced what you have experienced is particularly appropriate and just serves to show an ignorance for the subject.

Not really, the only ignorance shown is by the people that constantly defend the indefensible, the vast majority of people agree about it so it would suggest we are right, not the half dozen who always blame the user. See Postie for a perfect example.

I do agree that tactics are built to beat the AI instead of replicate football, but that's the same of every game and forum users like Glamdring are proof that you can win in FM using tactics you like rather than tactics to win (with his Bremen side). As for "super ai formations", I don't understand how people can see proof that others have not suffered at the hands of 4-2-4 etc and still blame the game rather than their own tactics. That's not to say that 4-2-4 isn't irritating, it most certianly is, but it is definately avoidable and in 13 years as FC Bayern manager I have only lost after taking the lead on a handfull of occassions.

Having a super tactic to counter the ai super tactic is proof of nothing, a 442 should destroy a 424.

Do you have proof that 'the vast majority' agree about it? Whatever 'it' is. Even if the vast majority of forum users agree, that is still a tiny proportion of FM players. And, also, I'd like to point out that the vast majority of Americans believe in god. But that doesn't prove that they're right.

Look. Maybe some people defend the 'indefensible' because they disagree that it is 'indefensible'. It's called opinion. It doesn't automatically have to earn a person the label of 'fanboy'. This forum thrives on debate. Debate is driven by opinion. I happily accept yours. I have no issue at all with you robustly arguing against someone else. But please, at least try and see that they have their opinion too, and what seems indefensible to you might not be to them.

The thing that's still annoying me is players shooting from stupid angles instead of pulling the ball back.

that gets me as well.

its when their on the goal line at the edge of the area and they try to shoot. but that could just be the commentary. he might actually be trying to get it back into the centre of the area at pace but because the players off balance it looks like shot.

that gets me as well.

its when their on the goal line at the edge of the area and they try to shoot. but that could just be the commentary. he might actually be trying to get it back into the centre of the area at pace but because the players off balance it looks like shot.

Yeah, but... every time?

And the commentary always makes out like he missed a sitter! I can only assume it's Motson.

Yeah, but... every time?

And the commentary always makes out like he missed a sitter! I can only assume it's Motson.

yeah, the commentary is a bit off. like when a defender clears the ball from the corner flag and it just about makes it over the side line at a very small angle and the commentary says he cleared it out for touch on purpose.

when it actually looks like he was clearing the ball upfield and it went out of play.

but commentary issues aren't that much of a problem for me. i make my own commentary up.

although one thing i'm not sure if its a mistake or on purpose is when my player gets a yellow card for a foul and the match report says 'it certainly looked like 'oppo player' was pulling my players shirt.

Responding to the OP, my response essentially mirrors that of Neji so I'll not bother filling the screen with things someone else has already said

However, most of the time when the FM "fanboys" say it's the user's tactics, it is. The OP complains about something happening, and the response will often be an explanation of what is most likely the cause of the problem, invariably something to do with the OP's tactics. The response from the OP is usually a complaint that they don't feel they should have to go into any kind of depth to solve the problem, and that it's the game's fault for not working with whatever tactic they're using. This of course leads to a lot of posts stating the tactics are at fault and an equal number of posts deriding the other users as "fanboys". This leads to both sides getting sick of the argument repeating every few days and the acusations of the others, and so on and so forth.....

Probably not the best thread to do this, but I felt I should get that off my chest.....

Responding to the OP, my response essentially mirrors that of Neji so I'll not bother filling the screen with things someone else has already said

However, most of the time when the FM "fanboys" say it's the user's tactics, it is. The OP complains about something happening, and the response will often be an explanation of what is most likely the cause of the problem, invariably something to do with the OP's tactics. The response from the OP is usually a complaint that they don't feel they should have to go into any kind of depth to solve the problem, and that it's the game's fault for not working with whatever tactic they're using. This of course leads to a lot of posts stating the tactics are at fault and an equal number of posts deriding the other users as "fanboys". This leads to both sides getting sick of the argument repeating every few days and the acusations of the others, and so on and so forth.....

Probably not the best thread to do this, but I felt I should get that off my chest.....

i dont see why 'fanboy' is used as an insult quite frankly.

if your a fanboy that means you play the game alot doesn't it? and if you play it alot your going to know more about the game than the average person.

so if you want to know somethign about the game then ask a fanboy. because they will more often than not have the definitive answer. which is 'its your tactics'

A fanboy is someone who loves the game/team or whatever so much that it blinds them to any reasonable criticism of it which is why they always respond to "its your tactics" when its a legitimate criticism of the game engine.

No, a fanboy is someone who is blind to the problems in whatever product they choose to 'support'.

For a prime example of 'fanboyism' visit the MaxConsole forums. Most of the forum choose either the 360 or the PS3 and critise the other whenever they get a chance. It's annoying.

i don't?

yes, i've sat there 10s of times & instead of trying to defend, i've infact done nothing.

when you assume in such a non-sensicle way it perpetuates an ego. i'm (relatively) new to the site but believe me i'm far from new to this series to assume that i 'don't change' my tactics is an insult, not to me but to your own intelligence. nice use of a question mark but please don't insult a fellow players intelligence with such a stupid 'question', when it goes without saying that i'd change my tactics.

when i say this has happened 10s of times, i litterally mean 10s of times, i'd say 100s but don't like being so dramatic. i HAVE changed my tactics numerous times yet experience the same results. my 'problem' wasn't with teams 'coming back' it's with the fact that when i go behond it seems the computer can't wait to get to the 90th minute yet when i go ahead the computers runs 10 scenarios within the 15 minute period, usually in the computers favour. my problem is that (on numerous occasions) the computer would often ignore my changing of tactics when behind & scurry its way to the 90th minute. i even went as far as to put 5 men up front on occasions just to have some effect (i believed it may be negative but i wanted to see a direct effect of my tactics on the game) but no luck.

imy problem is, when i change tactics i would like to see a direct influence on the game; be it positive or negative. don't get me wrong, not all managers changes have a great effect but i would @ times do drastic moves just to see some sort of correlation with with my management even if bad.

Well, it IS your tactics in this instance. When the AI goes 4-2-4 all out attack, what I do is drop my two centre mids into defensive midfield positions, I sacrifice a striker for a midfielder, who sits in the normal MC position. My wingers have farrows all the way to the top (dribbling - OFTEN + HOLD UP THE BALL), whack Time Wasting on to full and - and this is important - I don't go all the way to defensive, because this just invites the opposition to attack at will. Oh, I also change my tempo to slow. I find that this breaks up the opposition's attacks, and my wingers run to the corner flag and get a throw in or, occasionally, even a corner. My remaining striker is ideally a speed demon to give their defenders something to think about.

I'm not a tactical genius, far from it, but I do find that I rarely conceed late goals (I'm more likely to score them in fact). All I've done is think about the game, work out what's happening, and apply a solution to fix it.

So yes, it is your tactics.

To be honest, those that call people 'fanboy' are resorting to the same tactic as the fanboys themselves. A fanboy might say "it's your tactics" when he's stumped. But calling someone a fanboy is just the same. You're not actually giving any form of reasonable argument.

Personally, I would resent being called a fanboy just for defending the game.

Mike7077 is spot on. "Fanboy" is generally quite a childish argument (though when someone is so blindingly in love with the game, I do wonder myself), but yeah. I really enjoy FM08. Am I a fanboy? No. I recognise the many faults in the game. But it doesn't stop me really enjoying the game.

wonder if anyones played an old style 5 - 0 - 5 to counter 4-2-4

Never a truer word spoken in jest, (I assume you were having a little laugh with the 505 tactic).

What I have found is that rather than sitting back and defending a lead or a draw with time running out on the clock, it is beneficial to actually play the AI at their own game and try and attack them while they are concentrating on attacking you and throwing men forward.

I don't really think that it makes a difference how you actually attack them, (whether it by sticking another man up front, just giving them more creativity, moving the attacking sliders further forward, playing with a higher defensive line, any or all of these), what is important is that you react to what the AI is doing.

I know the "It's your tactics" line is something that a lot of people seem to find grating, (due to their frustration with their game), so I won't say that, (even if I do think that generally speaking what happens on the pith is a result of instructions, (or lack thereof), that you have given. Please don't anyone take offence to that comment. I'm really not having a pop. Just trying to be open and honest.

With regards to you individual points....

1. I've never seen 30 shots blocked in a game ever. Certainly lots of direct free-kicks seem to get smashed into the wall, but in open play I haven't ever realy encountered anything sort of like this number in 1 match. Looking at this in isolation, if this was happening to be I would decrease the attacking mentality slider slightly of the players in question or the whole team possibly if I was getting the numbers you have mentioned. There is no guarantee that this will work and I must admit that this comes from someone who developed a tactic with no strikers, (just a withdrawn forward), and had the attacking mentality sliders of all my players, (even the withdrawn forwards and my 2 wide attackers), below half way.

2. There was a big change in the representation of the match engine with the patches. I thought that initially the match engine was significantly poorer than FM07 at the same stage but that's just me. More than that, I was quite critical of FM08 in the early stages. That being said, I was simply blown away by the final match engine after I had time to get used to it and managed to rid myself of my earlier feeling of frustration. Again I will qualify that statement by saying that it comes from someone who watches League 2 football on a regular basis so this is what I compare the match engine. Whether by accident or design I think that SI have achieved a very realistic simulation of lower league football. Not ever managing a big club and not watching many live top class games, I can't really comment on whether the likes of Arsenal play like Arsenal or Brasil play like Brasil.

3. I have noticed this problem, but I do not agree that it happens EVERY time and I have created a tactic which helps alleviates the situation, (although it is still not great). You honestly don't do yourself any favours though by saying that this happens EVERY time. I've told you a million times not to exaggerate .

4. I really couldn't disagree more. My players fizz the ball about really well and off-load at the merest hint of pressure, (the 3 in the middle anyway). I used to find this was an issue and I thought that the cause was a lack of options to pass to. By increasing the attacking mentality of my full-backs, (a little risky for my ultra conservative style), or simply playing with another body in the middle of the pitch, I give the man in posession more options and encourage an easy pass when under pressure.

5. Not much to argue with there. There needs to be significant improvement in this area for it to be considered anything more than a gimmick.

I tried to go back to FM07 but I was drawn back to even the shabby out of the box version before I was keen to give FM07 again.

Anyway, you make some decent points but I would suggest that you might be guilty of trying to think too much about real football tactics when looking for a solution to some of the problems that you have encountered.

well, I play as forest as well and yes I have screamed too re a striker on his own in front of the empty nets and passing to someone else or a ball being cleared to touch instead of to the winger running for his life for a quick counter on the side... Many times I have wanted to chuck the game out of the window, but I'll be damned if I let the AI win... I must have created dozens of tactics for fm08 (first for 8.01 which i used until last month, when i could not get quality regens from EU countries, then for the latest patch) but now I stick to a 442 which i adapt a few times during a match. Yes it takes time but I do not have the same frustrating feeling. I have just won the championship second season with a young team by 4 points over West Brom. Now I have half my team head hunted and half of these who want to jump ship: I'll still go on though

I lost 3-2 to Arsenal in the league cup quarter final and the fans thought it was disappointing... Arsenal were playing close to their strongest side. I felt like mounting MG42's over the entrance to the City Ground. Plus the fact we can't get planning permission to get a new stadium

Yes it's not perfect but all in all I still enjoy it and wouldn't throw it away

re: GillsMan

did i say i was having a problem with my tactics or did i say i had a problem with the computer engine being 'over-active' during the final 15 minutes when the AI controlled teams need a goal. i do NOT (thought i'd use Capitals similarly to you, as obviously they must get my point across better, sigh) actually get scored on that much during the final 15 minutes & do indeed change my tactics when the time calls for it. yet again you fall into the trap of judging me by such a low standard as to assume that i don't tamper with my tactics.

when did i say that i concede alot during the final 15 minutes? I DIDN'T. my problem here isn't with my results, i do pretty well with my York City side but my problem is with the contrast in the way the computer simulates the final 15 (or so) minutes of a game depending on my advantage or dis-advantage @ the time.

re: Amoraq

thanks for the "tips" but yet again you miss the point. as i said, whether they score or not, isn't the point. they rarely do, my problem is that the chances are created for the AI controlled teams in a way that seems only to add to the suspense where as when i may be a goal down (or more than likely drawing) i can switch to an All-Out-Defence tactic & not see so much as a negative effect. the last 15 minutes become a blur.

re: "fanboys"

i can understand where these comments comes from. people will defend an idle product (a game) as if it were something living. i'm no computer programmer but 'common sense' would permit that with it being a game it is coded to react in a certain way to your 'management' & it should not react outside of these parameters, i very much doubt that people are criticising the game because they can't win; it's 'easy' enough to do with some form of regularity. we've all experienced the inexplicable games where no matter what you do you're going to crash out of the cup, whether you're now on a 150 game unbeaten streak or not, you've experienced a loss that will most likely make no sense.

people defend the match engine as if it is something precious, though in the same breath they'll have their complaints when their latest unbeaten run comes crashing to an end when their £50mil striker has 10 point blank shots saved by a division 3 goalkeeper.

i wouldn't personally call anyone a fanboy but people that defend the game by criticising other players intelligence are blinkered. it's a game!

re: Amoraq

thanks for the "tips" but yet again you miss the point. as i said, whether they score or not, isn't the point. they rarely do, my problem is that the chances are created for the AI controlled teams in a way that seems only to add to the suspense where as when i may be a goal down (or more than likely drawing) i can switch to an All-Out-Defence tactic & not see so much as a negative effect. the last 15 minutes become a blur.

I get that - I absolutely hate it when the game ceases to show me highlights while I'm trailing and desperately searching for a goal.

What I'm saying is, when I've watched those matches on Full Highlights, I've been able to see that it means we're losing possession well before threatening the oppo. area: in other words, that my tactic is so bad that I'm actually not generating any highlight-worthy moments.

Its not "the way the computer simulates it", or "the way highlights are chosen" .. its my tactics.

And, by watching it on Full, I've been able to spot where I'm going wrong, and fix the problem, so that I do generate those suspense-building chances - whether we score or not is a different story.

btw - a fellow Minsterman here.

Bah. Doesn't worth it.

Let's hope for a good 09 game.

im glad you put the deflected shot thing as 1)

it goes unnoticed

i meantioned it a few days ago

it is the main reason i dont play 442 anymore because

as soon as either of my strikers get the ball they feel like it is the only right thing to do

, that this is what they were put on this earth to do

they feel they are meant to kick the ball at the defender marking them

they honestly think eventually the ball will fly through the defender, because they do it honetly 90% of the time

i wouldn't personally call anyone a fanboy but people that defend the game by criticising other players intelligence are blinkered. it's a game!

No one has critised other players intelligence. This is the second time you've gone off on one in this thread, when people are genuinely trying to help. Amaroq and Gillsman to name two have offered great posts citing the reasons why the game does what it does. It all makes sense to me, yet you ignore it and take it as an insult. Calm down, no one is critising you, people are only trying to help.