Talking about a revolution.

Before I start this is not a dig or pro thread. Please don't post in my thread if you are not going to back yourself up or go off topic. I know these are forum rules but no one seems to adhere to these rules and no one seems to enforce them.

Anyhow...

In my opinion, FM2009 needs to be more revolutionary than 2006, 2007 and 2008. I am not saying that things were not introduced at those versions, I certainly appreciate all the additions and I appreciate the subtle changes that improved the game no end. That said, it has been some time since we have seen a fresh take on any section of the game - by this I mean wholsesale change rather than tweak. I believe that it is time for a big addition/change as the current version is immensely playable and unless there is significant addition/change it will be difficult to justify an update to FM2009.

I am not saying that I wouldn't buy the new version, I am just saying I think we are due something more significant this year.

Thanks for reading.

imho you are right. in the past few years the changes have been small (good, but small). it's the same game as it was in 2005 just with few additions

I've read a few threads like this over the last few months and i'm always wondering what people mean by revolution? How big would it have to be and what sort of thing are you talking about?

Personally i'd be extremely happy with FM09 fixing the things in 08 that don't work and creating a whole new interaction system bigger than ever. Most people would think that was crap lol, which just proves that saying "revolution" isn't enough, give us something to go on.

Quite. The OP spent four lines basically saying 'I don't know what I want, but whatever it is I want it now'.

Quite. The OP spent four lines basically saying 'I don't know what I want, but whatever it is I want it now'.

Exactly. The idea of a 'revolution' scares me. We can't just go making wholesale changes for the sake of it. Whatever new, major feature appeared, you could bet it'd not work properly. I'm much more comfortable with gradual changes and improvements. Makes the process seem much more organic.

Your criticism is fair - I have not said what I specifically want - the fact is I can't nail down one specific thing. I have posted with knowledge of the items that commonyl come up so I have rather assumed that everyone has the same knowledge which was rather presumptious of me. I suppose the way to look at it is try to divide the game up into its modules. I will try below - please add anything I have left out:

Interaction system

Database

Transfer System/Scouting

Regeneration / random player generation

Match Engine

An example of what could be done is an overhaul of the Match Engine - 3D it up (I know this is preposterous suggestion).

The point is - I cannot pre-empt what SI might do - they are the experts not me ;-P

Interaction system

Database

Transfer System/Scouting

Regeneration / random player generation

Match Engine

Other than interaction (which was my suggestion at the top ), those are all just things that need fixed (except database, I don't see how that could be improved or fixed), not a revolution. 3D would be a revolution, but lets not start another thread about that

"those are all just things that need fixed "

Not to be cynical but are we then saying that each iteration of the game should just be a bug fix with a data update?

By Database I mean - addition of leagues perhaps - for me this would go some way to justifying a new release. I don't want the world to change necessarily - additions are fine too!!

Not to be cynical but are we then saying that each iteration of the game should just be a bug fix with a data update?

No, but it seemed to be what you were suggesting, and that's the point I was making re: your revolution. I'm all for additions to the game, but your suggestions wouldn't go anywhere near a revolution IMO, player generation, match engine and transfer system are already in the game, but need fixed and jazzed up. I don't mean to be flippant, but that's not revolutionary thinking, it's just a list of stuff that needs fixed.

A revolution as you said yourself would need a big addition or change, in the context of what you listed there's is nothing there that would be so spectacular.

No, SI have famously said that they want "evolution, not revolution". Championship Manager has a "revolutionary" feature this year: it has 3D. Is it revolutionary? Sure. But I like gimicks so I'll probably download the demo, but I bet a tenner it's crap and I won't play it. Does Football Manager need a revolution? No, it's by and large a very, very good game. Does it need evolution? Sure. It's far from being a good game and there's many things in the game that annoy me. There are many more things which make it a very enjoyable game, though.

Evolution is fine, but I'd like SI to expand on some of the features already in the game as well as introducing new ideas.

No, SI have famously said that they want "evolution, not revolution".

Si evole, but they don't revolve

Sorry for the off topicness.

No, off topicness is good, it's helpful, it's freedom of expression it's...not China damnit!!

Your criticism is fair - I have not said what I specifically want - the fact is I can't nail down one specific thing. I have posted with knowledge of the items that commonyl come up so I have rather assumed that everyone has the same knowledge which was rather presumptious of me. I suppose the way to look at it is try to divide the game up into its modules.

I'm sure you mean well, but honestly, just listing a couple of things which are now b0rked isn't gonna make anything revolutionary. Nomis already said it are mostly all areas which need proper fixing, as the current version is fairly flawed in all above aspects. Well, except perhaps the database.

And more leagues in the database is by far not revolutionary, unless you have a different opinion about the meaning of it ;-)

But honestly, the only thing I can come up with as 'Revolutionary' is when it all goes 3D. Which is for me a reason not to buy it anymore unless I can turn it off and on whenever I want. But that's a personal opinion.

In fact, I think anything revolutionary would be the last thing I want to see in FM. Not until they have improved all things you have mentioned. After that we might start thinking about something revolutionary, but then again, I think by then SI has started to move towards something similar as well :-)

You might want to try reading the Wishlist, a lot of nice suggestions have been made there which might or might not qualify as revolutionary for you. Although anything before page 20 were suggestions made before FM 08 was out ...

The last revolutionary thing I saw was the 2D match, by the way.

Even you who has come up with this thread is having trouble thinking of a revolutionary feature.

Interaction. It's need some work but what exactly can be done with this to make it 'revolutionary'? IMO adding alot more and ficing the effects it has is all that can, and needs to be done.

Database. How can the DB change? The DB is probably the finest point of FM. Without it being as good as it is, I probably wouldn't play quite so much.

Transfer System/Scouting. Again what can change? The Transfer system definately needs re-working but if you're talking about revolutionary, what can be done? Same with scouting, the scouting has changed greatly for the better. It changed quite alot yet not enough?

Regens. Again, needs tweaking, nothing much can be done with them except for making sure they develop right.

Match Engine. Probably the only thing SI could do that could be reffered to as Revolutionary. IMO, it isn't time for 3D yet. I'm not sure SI have the manpower to make a great ME and make it look great in full 3D. Now, something like CM's new ME would be great but the quality of matches it produces has to be as good as we currently have.

We get these threads asking for 'revolutionary' feature but no one can ever come up with an idea that would be that. If you're asking for something so big, you need to know what you want.

We get these threads asking for 'revolutionary' feature but no one can ever come up with an idea that would be that. If you're asking for something so big, you need to know what you want.

Spot on - couldn't agree more.

I don't disagree with anything you say - I particularly like the evolution post - this is very constructive and would probably be closer to what I am looking for.

I agree with getting the things right which have been put in already as well.

I cannot articulate what I would like to see - just like I could not predict the 2D addition to FM before that happenned.

I just feel that this version needs to be more than just a data update with small fixes to existing features.

Perhaps there is nothing left (apart for the dreaded 3D) to add?

Thanks for joining in the discussion!

We will see new features, we always do but all you're asking for now is what everyone else in the forum is. Making the current features better and adding some new features. You're not asking for anything so big. There are hundreds of great ideas floating around this forum and some will be included some wont.

A game that comes out every year is not going to have a revolution, 2005 did because it was a fresh start.

As Nomis07 said fix the things that people didn't like/were a bit shakey, expand them and then introduce a coupel of nice new things to peak our interest. Its the best Footy Man sim by miles so stick with the forumla just shine it up real nice and put a cherry on top

I know they aren't necessarily connected and the same teams don't work on them, but was FM Live not a revolutionary idea? People always seem to say the last big idea from Si was the 2D match representation, but surely FM Live, whilst not a part of FM itself is a pretty revolutionary addition.

A game that comes out every year is not going to have a revolution, 2005 did because it was a fresh start.

As Nomis07 said fix the things that people didn't like/were a bit shakey, expand them and then introduce a coupel of nice new things to peak our interest. Its the best Footy Man sim by miles so stick with the forumla just shine it up real nice and put a cherry on top

Yup - I am 95% happy with how the game is

Just needs a few things tweaked

I agree with most of the people that replied. I just want current features in the game improved. I don't think anything new is necessary.

imo the current features in the game at the present time are good... all that there really needs to be done is some of the issues getting fixed like the transfer market and confidence etc...

im looking foward to what si will come up with in fm09

here is a "revolution" suggestion: manager personalities.

at the start of the game you get to CHOOSE A MANAGER TYPE that you would like to adopt. you could choose from a few options, say, Motivational, Tactical, Hard Man, etc. Motivational managers could have more successful team talks, and tactical managers could recieve more in depth and accurate advice from the Ass Man for tactics during a game (in game tactical advice from the Ass Man would be a major benefit IMO).

this could be coupled with a revamped interaction system, so players would respond more to certain aspects of your management depending on your chosen style. what i am thinking is maybe not only could there be more options for interaction, but when a comment is made you could choose in which context the comment was made. a few options would be enough, e.g. "dressing down", "softly approach", and "observational comment".

let me give an example.

at the end of a game when you want to say "why cant you play like this every match?", you could also click, say, "observational comment". then a player has no reason to be angry at your inference, but may be nervous or inspired for future games. however, if you had instead clicked "dressing down", you may put the fear of God in to your players, or players could have increased/decreased respect for you depending on their personality and the accuracy of your comment. this gives you more control over how you want to be percieved by your players.

finally, if you introduce manager attributes in much the way the staff have attributes currently, you could adapt and improve your style as the game goes on. every comment, tactical decision, possibly every click you make, could impinge on your in-game attributes.

The biggest change i'd like to see is the game giving feedback on training & tactics and improved intereaction with the board, players & media

The feedback imho would be revolutionary as currently the game gives little or none in these areas

The interaction is more along the lines of SI's wanted evolution

change is good, additions and fixes are good, but sometimes for me the additions and fixes aren't enough to warrant my spending hard cash in the shop, for these reasons i didnt buy 06 or 08, the changes were nice, but they werent enough for me

i liked the training system used in 05, although i was frustrated by the lack of adequate documentation, and then disappointed at its removal, but its replacement is at least reasonable and usuable

but it was only usable because i was able to locate the information of what does what within the hints file (i cant remember now if i tried looking for the data this way for the 05 training).

obviously the feedback thing is going to be tricky to balance, too much & the game becomes too easy, not enough and there is no point having it, i dont even know how simple/difficult creating something like this will be for the coders (but if they try, i wish them well in thier endevours), not only that but there will be people who do not want this level of added 'intrusion' into thier game, so it also needs the option of being turned off

sorry if any part of this went offtopic/rambled, but this was about as revolutionary as i could get.

All the ideas being suggested are generally good ideas but none of them 'revolutionary'

The only way FM can really come up with a revolution is if the game of football itself changes. Everyone is critical and says new things need to be added, well go to FIFA and tell them to change something, not SI.

I know they aren't necessarily connected and the same teams don't work on them, but was FM Live not a revolutionary idea? People always seem to say the last big idea from Si was the 2D match representation, but surely FM Live, whilst not a part of FM itself is a pretty revolutionary addition.

FML is revolutionary and it is always a concern of mine when looking forward to FM2009 that maybe too much went into FML and that FM2009 wont have a good/large improvement over 2008 unless lots of the FML stuff is implemented into FM2009, at which point would raise the question why have 2 games that are so similar? I would think SI are keen to keep the 2 games having their own identities.

I am expecting a big clean up of 2008 with lots of extra content in terms of media for things that are already in place and new data for 2009 but don't see where any "revolutionary" idea will come from.

I think that one thing which can really get you into the game when you buy it is a really awesome, comfortable skin. One of the reasons I couldn't get into 08 initially is I didn't really feel at home with the skin.

I think that one thing which can really get you into the game when you buy it is a really awesome, comfortable skin. One of the reasons I couldn't get into 08 initially is I didn't really feel at home with the skin.

Again, i'm not particularly bothered by this and don't think SI should take too much time to worry about it. I understand what you're saying and think it's kinda true, but even if the skin they created was spectacular a majority of users would download other skins anyway, plus most of the skins created by users are pretty good and free.

I would love to see more anaylsis of the matches. It would be brilliant if you got a message from your assistant after a game explaining what went wrong and right in his eyes.

For Example:

Your assistant manager has made the following observations from the last match:

"The Full back's somewhat gung-ho attacking left us short at the back on many an occasion"

"The target man is left stranded up front on his own."

"Your CB failed to dominate."

etc.

I would love to see more anaylsis of the matches. It would be brilliant if you got a message from your assistant after a game explaining what went wrong and right in his eyes.

For Example:

Your assistant manager has made the following observations from the last match:

"The Full back's somewhat gung-ho attacking left us short at the back on many an occasion"

"The target man is left stranded up front on his own."

"Your CB failed to dominate."

etc.

I do agree that this would be a good addition. You don't have to listen to him if you don't want. I do think more feedback on your tactics is needed. Although they would have to introduce that he may not always be right depending on his level of tactical knowledge.

I wish this thread would go away. It keeps reminding me of that awful Tracy Chapman song.

Regens. Again, needs tweaking, nothing much can be done with them except for making sure they develop right.

Are you serious. A lot can be done like making them have proper physical abilities. I'm not saying give them great to good stats but don't make a Defender who is 5'8 have a bad jumping rating. Seriously.

So you think a defender who is 5'8 should automatically have a good jumping attribute. I think 5'8 is quite small for a defender.

Back to the topic. I agree with most of the posters on here about tweaking the game. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The game doesn't need anything major to get my money.

I want a new ME soonish because I'm getting bored of the same thing (with less/different bugs) from 4 years ago. I will not buy FM09 unless theres a new ME (not tweaked because then it'll be 6 months before its patched to be not ****). I also want completely overhauled commentary (I actually think SI have been exceptionally lazy here, is it that hard to write a new script???????).

In my eyes the game will only be FIXED once the graphical version of the ME we see is rock solid i.e: FAR LESS 'even' games that are automatic losses/wins, far less ridiculous stuff like the keeper stranding himself when he has 5-10 seconds to prepare, no more full backs passing to the keeper who is being marked by the oppositions centre forward, no more throw ins being thrown DIRECTLY TO the opposition, and injury time no longer being bugged (have you noticed it only goes over the alloted time when the A.I/your team/s go attacking?? Why is injury time influenced by who's trying to score the most ?????). I think all of these blatant flaws have no place in a game that has been worked on for more than 5 years. Its almost ridiculous at this point.

edit: I'm well aware these are all symptoms of tactical mistakes but my point is that in real football these things don't happen. If the game wants a team to win then cut out all the cheap looking ******** stuff and make them control midfield (or anything else). All they have to do is REMOVE all the obnoxious stuff from the ME and replace it with sensible stuff, same end result, less ******** and feeling of being cheated/winning because the games on rails. A good example of this is my left backs, my left backs have given away over 20 goals in three seasons by passing back to the keeper only for the oppo striker to get the ball and tap it in, I have NEVER seen this in real life, the problem is obviously a tactical one, but the way it is DISPLAYED to me is obnoxious and does not lead to an obvious fix, right now if I was to start playing FM I would quit because frankly there are so many good games I wouldn't want to put up with the crap it throws at you. If SI can't make this stop then they need the ASSMAN to do something, like say 'hey the left backs keep ****ing up, its probably because they are set to play too defensive/ they have poor composure/ your keepers got poor comunication etc... you should change the mentality of the full backs/ replace your full backs with "insert reserve players name here" / focus training on your keeper'. None of this is unreasonable and it would be nice if SI took any of this onboard (although its far too late for FM09 which I almost certainly wont buy).

Are you serious. A lot can be done like making them have proper physical abilities. I'm not saying give them great to good stats but don't make a Defender who is 5'8 have a bad jumping rating. Seriously.

Thats what I said. Nothing can be done except for having them Develop Properly. You can't do anything revolutionary with them.

Thats what I said. Nothing can be done except for having them Develop Properly. You can't do anything revolutionary with them.

Teach them Ballet maybe ??

Thats what I said. Nothing can be done except for having them Develop Properly. You can't do anything revolutionary with them.

I think people are confusing fixing the flaws in 08 with revolutionary additions. We all know what's wrong and I expect them to be sorted out, but as Neji says, that's hardly revolutionary. Revolutionary would be all attributes being sropped and the player getting one score out 100 (i'm not suggesting this, just emphasising my point).

If SI can't make this stop then they need the ASSMAN to do something, like say 'hey the left backs keep ****ing up, its probably because they are set to play too defensive/ they have poor composure/ your keepers got poor comunication etc... you should change the mentality of the full backs/ replace your full backs with "insert reserve players name here" / focus training on your keeper'.

That would be a nice addition for an Assistant Manager, perhaps even only in the so-called Advisor so you can turn it on/off depending on how much remarks you want to get from him.

Or you can always make it a slider :-P

But seriously, I can see that my left back comes up too often. That's something you can spot yourself, I don't need my Assistant Manager to tell me that, but the thing is - how do I prevent him from doing that? That's what I want to hear.

You are not going to get something revolutionary - football, which the developers are trying to recreate, is a static target therefore there will not be a breakthrough of (say) no offsides as that does not happen in real life.

They have the option just now of making the current holes in their target bigger, or aiming for another part of the body, or a combination of both.

There won't be anything spectacular and a lot of people will be put off of the new game as it is "just the same as old version".

When the game is as good as it is, there doesn't need to be wholesale changes. Just a few tweaks here and there, some new features and a data update. I'm more than happy to buy a new FM that includes all these things.

Are you serious. A lot can be done like making them have proper physical abilities. I'm not saying give them great to good stats but don't make a Defender who is 5'8 have a bad jumping rating. Seriously.

(Cough) Cannavaro (Cough)

We had the revolution, it was CM5...it sucked. The king is dead long live the king!

I think people are confusing fixing the flaws in 08 with revolutionary additions. We all know what's wrong and I expect them to be sorted out, but as Neji says, that's hardly revolutionary. Revolutionary would be all attributes being sropped and the player getting one score out 100 (i'm not suggesting this, just emphasising my point).

I agree that that's what people are doing, but you have to wonder how. There's a world of difference between fixing flaws and coming up with revolutionary additions.

It would be revolutionary if we had a game that worked from day one for me!

You are not going to get something revolutionary - football, which the developers are trying to recreate, is a static target therefore there will not be a breakthrough of (say) no offsides as that does not happen in real life.

They have the option just now of making the current holes in their target bigger, or aiming for another part of the body, or a combination of both.

There won't be anything spectacular and a lot of people will be put off of the new game as it is "just the same as old version".

That sounds like an easy excuse to justify no revolutionary ideas. There's more than enough room for major changes or additions while leaving the actual football of the game untouched. I'll give a few ideas which would, at least in part, revolutionize the world of FM.

The tactics screen. It has been revolutionized before, it can be done again. A lot of FM'ers have been calling for a more intuitive way to put your tactical ideas in the game, instead of the sometimes mysterious sliders. A reintroduction of on-the-ball and off-the-ball screens, a drawing board for set-pieces, a feature to manually draw lines for your attackers to follow based on where the ball, teammates and opposing players are, you could think of quite a few things that would make the tactical aspect of the game more interesting. The transition wouldn't be easy, and SI would have to really come up with some brilliant thinking to get it right. Whether such a 'revolution' would be worth all the effort and potential problems is an entire discussion of its own, but it's a possibility.

Post match analysis. A major but undoubtedly extremely difficult idea could be to make your team learn from their mistakes in the previous match. This is something each manager would do in real life and at some point in the future, it could be done in FM. It would require a very adaptive and learning AI though, so at this point I can imagine it would be nearly impossible, but software and hardware advances at an impressive rate so you never know. The idea is you have footage of the entire match at your disposal (perhaps a bit much to ask, so saving a few key moments in the match would be good as well) and use it to point out mistakes to your team. This could be a defence splitting pass that a player didn't spot, which you could then draw on the field. An opportunity for a one-two pass with a player in a perfect position to do so. A lateral run by a player to draw a defender out of position so it would creating space for a good pass/run/shot, pointing out a better position for a defender in a certain situation, etc. The AI should then try to put all those "lessons" to use when it recognizes (that is of course the hard part) a similar situation. Such a feature would be a gem for managers who particularly love to tweak their tactics, and it could be an extremely powerful tool. Definately a long-term idea for the future.

I agree that that's what people are doing, but you have to wonder how. There's a world of difference between fixing flaws and coming up with revolutionary additions.

That's just it though, I don't think i've ever seen an idea that I thought was truely breaking the trend and would be revolutionary as far as FM is concerned, and I don't think I will actually (unless SI do it). We've all had loads of ideas, and a lot of them are very good, but is there anything truely game changing, even in the wishlist thread?

That's just it though, I don't think i've ever seen an idea that I thought was truely breaking the trend and would be revolutionary as far as FM is concerned, and I don't think I will actually (unless SI do it). We've all had loads of ideas, and a lot of them are very good, but is there anything truely game changing, even in the wishlist thread?

Do we even need game-changing additions anymore?

Do we even need game-changing additions anymore?

No!

We just need the ones we have currently to work 100%, well at least 99%, before yet more complex modules are added.

No!

We just need the ones we have currently to work 100%, well at least 99%, before yet more complex modules are added.

I agree. But imagine this. SI get every single feature working perfectly. Wouldn't that truly mean that we were then just paying for a database update each year? Would we not need major new features in that circumstance?

I agree. But imagine this. SI get every single feature working perfectly. Wouldn't that truly mean that we were then just paying for a database update each year? Would we not need major new features in that circumstance?

Well yes but, as you have said, and others have as well, what could you add. I certainly can't think of anything that majorly needs adding to the game.

I basically buy the game these days in the hope they well sort the bugs out, and all that happens is I get dissappointed. I would certainly pay to have a 100% working game and a database update each year.

At the moment depending on the demo for FM09, FM08 may well be my last purchase. If the FM09 demo is good I will buy FM09, if its like FM08 I wont bother, for obvious reasons.