An idea for potential ability

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Players aren't guarnteed to reach their potential. Most never do. What you're doing is removing the PA system, and replacing it with an identical system with a different name and scale.

I like the "intelligence" attribute though.

Something I have not liked about the CM / FM games since day one is how a player has a set, three digit number for his potential ability that he can never surpass. The problem with it is that I put these kids into training with good schedules and top class coaches and they've all reached their peak by the age of 24! Players are learning their trade all the time, whether they're 20 or 30 years old, but generally peak at around 28.

Is this based on in game feedback or are you using an external program to check this?

The intelligence/learning stat, isn't that a combination of adaptability and professionalism?

Also, people still learn after the age of 24, although less fast as before turning 24. A young player simply develops faster, so they decided to make the age of 24 the limit of being a young player.

Besides, most improvements will be made to mental attributes as they age and understand the game better.

This has been discussed many times before and I've yet to see anyone put forward a genuinely good alternative to the capped PA system.

What needs improving is the development model so that more things have more of an impact on how, when and if a player gets close to their PA. But having a capped PA is really the only sensible way of representing potential. Remember, if you didn't use external scout programmes to look at values for PA you would never have any idea of whether a player had reached their potential and when they got there, just like a real manager.

The PA system itself fine as it is IMO. What needs to change is how limiting AGE is on FM. Hit 21/22 and if the player hasn't acheived 75% of their PA they're pretty much stuck. A 25 year-old player who moves to a big club should be able to increase his CA by a lot more than is currently possible, providing certain stats are high enough (professionalism, natural fitness, etc). Likewise, when a player reaches a certain age, if his natural fitness and professionalism are fairly high he shouldn't be lining up for a bolt in the head aged 33.

CA could vary a lot more too. I'd bet real money Christiano Ronaldo is the best player in the world on FM09, but in reality it's doubtful he'll be scoring 40-odd goals again. His CA, if anything, could be LOWER than last season. Of course, this is hypothetical as we won't see him in action for a few weeks.

In terms of realism, certain stats should probably drop after an injury, but should be linked to stuff like bravery. IE, if a striker is just coming back but has low bravery, he is less likely to go throwing himself around like he did before... at least for a couple of games.

I think they should have a "estimated potiential". They may reach or surpass it, or they could never get near it.

I think they should have a "estimated potiential". They may reach or surpass it, or they could never get near it.

that sounds like coach/scout reports tbf.

I think the 0-200 PA is fine. Only thing i would like is a PA for Technical stats, PA for Mental stats and a PA for Physical stats. This would even things up a bit when players are created. If a player is naturally fit, strong quick etc, this shouldnt go against how he could develope technically and/or mentally.

It's not a wholesale change to the current system. It just makes it more approximate and murky, as in reality. I dislike how it's so precise and mathematical as it stands.

It already is. A player will never achieve past his potential. If you don't use 3rd party tools, you never know what his potential is, so it is like real life. You can have an idea if he will achieve or not but you can't gaurantee it.

From Spanish data issues thread, I continue here. I do not repeat everything I wrote there. http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=12696&page=8

This PA-system used simply is not good. That "PA means CA player CAN reach and it is not guaranteed" is of course true but still somewhat not.

- Most serious problem is that players' CA cannot raise or drop dramatically on short time AND there are no attributes for problematic players. So if player has high CA, he plays easilly 7 top seasons in a row.

- This "can reach" system also does not work. My style of play is that I scout high PA youngsters, send them on loan until they are about 19-21 years old and after that play them on my first team. And so far (playing year 2021), not single high PA player has "flopped". (some high PA players just did not get proper training or match experience and that is some way my and Work permit's fault.) So we can say that if high PA player gets good training and match experience on young enough age, he has almost 100% chance to reach (or very close reach) his PA.

Currently, I have 30 players on my first team. 26 of them can be considered as players who were not even near Premiership level when bought, so they can be considered as "promising youngsters". Of those 26 players, currently 13 has Worldwide reputation and 13 have Continental reputation. Cannot even remember how many top youngsters have played before this year.

So it seems that when properly trained and given playing time, players have no problem to reach their PA.

My six attackers are good example. All six bought to squad on young age. All have reputation Worldwide. Values 25M, 24.5M, 24.5M, 24.5M, 22.5M and 18.5M.

So like we should say that PA means CA level player WILL reach if trained and played properly and player MAY reach it if not trained or played properly. I ask some kind of random attribute here, so that there are more "flops".

So it seems that when properly trained and given playing time, players have no problem to reach their PA.

Well, of course they will reach their potential is treated right.

What you posted isn't a problem with the PA system, anyway. It's a problem with the development system.

I think it's fine as it is tbh, it does it's job and means that you know when a players hit his peak rather than training him without knowing.

Without knowing the precise PA of a player I can't see a problem. It seems that the only people who think there is a problem with the PA system are the people who use external utilities which give you information about the players that you shouldn't have.

If you base all your potential ability predictions based on your scouts/coaches reports, taking into account that they are not always 100% accurate, and judge a players peak by his performances on the pitch and his value you should see the whole system in a different light.

If you base all your potential ability predictions based on your scouts/coaches reports, taking into account that they are not always 100% accurate, and judge a players peak by his performances on the pitch and his value you should see the whole system in a different light.

My take? Play the game, don't bother with CA and PA and base your actions on your and your staff's judgement. See how well your players turn out. That's the most fun for me, at least.

Gut feeling is worth much more than looking at how good a player can become. That's how real managers do their jobs after all. Sometimes it works, sometimes it fails. But that's all part of the game.

So far my best striker on the pitch in years is someone who's valued as a 3 star 'decent player', yet he scores more than any other quality striker in my team - ever.

Which, incidentally, is the proper way of how to play the game after all. Otherwise all those external utilities would've been included with the game in the first place.

My take? Play the game, don't bother with CA and PA and base your actions on your and your staff's judgement. See how well your players turn out. That's the most fun for me, at least.

Gut feeling is worth much more than looking at how good a player can become. That's how real managers do their jobs after all. Sometimes it works, sometimes it fails. But that's all part of the game.

So far my best striker on the pitch in years is someone who's valued as a 3 star 'decent player', yet he scores more than any other quality striker in my team - ever.

Agreed!

but i do however like the idea of players having CA + PA for physical, technical and mental stats.

Even though i dont use the fm scout or any other program, i have created a database for experiments in the CSE forum, and think it would be better and make more sense having CA and PA for each category.

For example if you made a random player with a high CA but all attributes at 0 (Random) then he may turn out to be a good technical player, a leader on the pitch with good mental attributes, or a good strong fast player.

Does that make sense?

I mean i know me personally would have a higher CA for technical and physical than for mental stats, but at the same time my PA for mental and technical would be higher than physical stats.

Make sense now?

Now Discuss....

Without knowing the precise PA of a player I can't see a problem. It seems that the only people who think there is a problem with the PA system are the people who use external utilities which give you information about the players that you shouldn't have.

If you base all your potential ability predictions based on your scouts/coaches reports, taking into account that they are not always 100% accurate, and judge a players peak by his performances on the pitch and his value you should see the whole system in a different light.

Yes, sometimes they are somewhat wrong but when taking account Coach reports (Scout reports seem to be much more inaccurate), players' estimated CA (free attributes, footedness...) and value compared to other similar players, it gives somewhat good estimation of players' PA.

This estimations most times give PA for 19-21 year old player (those who I promote to first team) accurately enough. Last career, I no longer play, I seemed that I missed most my estimations about 5-20 points. I assumed that my best players had about 195 PA.

And even if my estimation goes wrong as far as 20 points, player's PA would be about 175, which is enough if he has good free attributes.

Coach reports are of course major factor here. On FM 2007, you did not have Coarch reports, and then it was "I just guess this player have enough PA" when coaches just say "potential to be very good player for this club" and after player turns 20, they give something not worthless.

Of course, in this career I buy huge amount of players (about 4/5 are just worthless signings if considered to be part of first team), who turn to be "misses". But with Coach reports and previously mentioned things, I do not waste my First team time on these players.

Agreed!

but i do however like the idea of players having CA + PA for physical, technical and mental stats.

Even though i dont use the fm scout or any other program, i have created a database for experiments in the CSE forum, and think it would be better and make more sense having CA and PA for each category.

For example if you made a random player with a high CA but all attributes at 0 (Random) then he may turn out to be a good technical player, a leader on the pitch with good mental attributes, or a good strong fast player.

Does that make sense?

I mean i know me personally would have a higher CA for technical and physical than for mental stats, but at the same time my PA for mental and technical would be higher than physical stats.

Make sense now?

Now Discuss....

Well, almost that kind of Random database is DB that I play with. It is available on many places, ask link if interested. All players' Technical, Physical, Goalkeeping and Mental attributes are set to 0. So their attributes are random, altough CA is not. I also use this with "use real players: No" option. However, there are no different CA:s for these areas as you wrote.

This may be reason why I'm very experienced estimating PA. I cannot buy any players with just name, I have to scout every player to get estimate of his CA/PA.

And because dafuge said something about using external utilities, well, I just do not need them.

I already mentioned ways to approximate players' CA and PA. And, because players' PA does not change during the game, one of the best ways to play this game is to scout young players and buy those who seem to have "much" PA.

Usually I put my scouts/coaches to scout about 3000-5000 players at one time. Even using this way, it is impossible to get all available young talents to your squad, but in this way you get enough promising players and after they have got some experience, it is not so hard to determine if this player is worth keeping. If not, usually these players can be sold for low fee and "percentage of next sale 50%" clause. I usually have "positive" problems to choose, which young player I promote to first team and who not. I have many times sold promising player just because he is bad on single attribute, for example on Penalty taking.

And how can I play good games with "21 year old youngsters"? Well, I still try to keep balance and have enough experienced players (most of them previously promoted youths) on field with these youngsters. And while my opponents usually struggle with players who have bad condition, I have "2.5 teams" so I can almost always put top notch condition players on field and then I easilly can use quick tempo that tires opponents quite well.

I have been using FM Modifier and FM Scout for research purposes, for example to determine Free attributes for different positions, but when playing the game, they are not needed.

Still, I wish that this PA-system have more randomization so that not every high PA player with good training and playing experience becomes world class player for many years in a row.

There needs to be more players of a higher potential but also another attribute of how likely that player is to get there. I think that would make the game more fun, wed have highly touted players drop off the face of the earth.

Im a QPR fan, Im used to seeing highly rated players end up in non league football.

Players do drop off the face of the earth in FM too. I have seen former in-game internationals struggle to get into lower league sides by their late 20s.

Players do drop off the face of the earth in FM too. I have seen former in-game internationals struggle to get into lower league sides by their late 20s.

Yes, but those players usually have low PA, but their CA is high compared to players at same age. IE they "peak" for about 20 years and so.

But I have never seen that good CA/PA player suddenly "drops off the face of the earth". Of course, there may be some bad games, but we still miss players like Adriano who disappear for year and so.

The current PA system seems good to me. The development needs to be looked at. A lot of players should have higher PA but mental attributes (stuff like professionalism, ambition etc.) should play a much bigger role. We need to see players who are great youngsters and destined for the stars who fail miserably as soon as they find out what a night club is. We need players who are average youngsters and then they work their way to the top and peak a little late in their career. We need a lot more variety in player development.

The current PA system seems good to me. The development needs to be looked at. A lot of players should have higher PA but mental attributes (stuff like professionalism, ambition etc.) should play a much bigger role. We need to see players who are great youngsters and destined for the stars who fail miserably as soon as they find out what a night club is. We need players who are average youngsters and then they work their way to the top and peak a little late in their career. We need a lot more variety in player development.

I think we already do see this. You can have a youngster with high PA for their age but little PA, hence they would never achieve what everyone thought they could. I've had it a few times where my AM as told me a player is going to be 'one of the best of his generation', I take a look at his stats and think he looks really good. I nuture him and nothing ever comes of it. It is in there it's just that there isn't a massive emphasis on it in terms of media which, in truth is what makes younger players seem better than they are sometimes.

Wrote initially in the Spanish data thread.. moving it here now.

I mostly agree. And that is why there should be attributes for this kind of players.

Considering another sports, for example Ice hockey, where you have unlimited amount on substitutions. There have been many players who are considered "very gifted" (=high PA) by almost every coach, but still they lack motivation or something else and never reach their PA.

And tihs is reason, why Cassano should have high PA BUT also attributes that make him "not so like to improve".

The PA, as it is used in the game, is nothing more than the highest CA that a player can realistically reach during this playing career.

Why bother to make it more than that?

It's not that I don't see your point, it's that I don't see the additional benefit of going the route that you suggest from an FM point of view. Even in this "restrictive" approach players still shouldn't necessarily reach their PA especially since we tend to be optimistic on the highest CA that players can realistically reach.

I think the main problems with the PA/CA system could be easily fixed with the two stats replaced with six. A CA/PA for Technical, Mental and Physical ability.

Physical ability would develop the fastest with all of it done by age 24 and then the player would slowly (much slower than currently happens, the main ones being things like natural fitness, acceleration and to a lesser extent pace or stamina, which most players lose one of) start to deteriorate around the 28-32 mark, depending on the player.

Technical ability would develop over time at a slower rate and would have mostly stopped improving at around 28 years old. Some aspects should probably depreciate after the ages of around 30-34.

Mental stats should advance the slowest and should pretty much increase until about age 32. They shouldn't really deteriorate much unless a player plays up to around 40 years old (other professional sports which commonly feature older players show said players to not be able to concentrate or focus as effectively as in their youth).

The development system isn't perfect at the moment, but it's also not hugley flawed, IMO. Seperating the progression of the three categories of attributes would probably help with this a little though.

We can't see the PA of players, which is fine and so I don't think that complaining that because you cheat by finding the players with high PAs it's too easy to get them to advance to that level makes any sense whatsoever. Players that "disappear without a trace" in real life are usually the youngsters with high CA for their age but with a low PA (often low mental PA, IMO). Coaches should mainly rely on current ability, age and attitude in determining how far a player can develop, becaue that's all they have to go on in real life.

Peeking at the stats that are hidden then whining that the game should be changed is as ridiculous as complaing that typing "idgod" makes the game too easy because none of the demons can hurt you.

The development system isn't perfect at the moment, but it's also not hugley flawed, IMO. Seperating the progression of the three categories of attributes would probably help with this a little though.

We can't see the PA of players, which is fine and so I don't think that complaining that because you cheat by finding the players with high PAs it's too easy to get them to advance to that level makes any sense whatsoever. Players that "disappear without a trace" in real life are usually the youngsters with high CA for their age but with a low PA (often low mental PA, IMO). Coaches should mainly rely on current ability, age and attitude in determining how far a player can develop, becaue that's all they have to go on in real life.

Peeking at the stats that are hidden then whining that the game should be changed is as ridiculous as complaing that typing "idgod" makes the game too easy because none of the demons can hurt you.

Well, as I already said, with good scouting you can have, say about, 40 percent of all good young talents in game. When buying young talents, you will also receive many players who does not have so good PA, but when player has spent some years on loan, you can easilly determine if player actually is top talent or not. And if not, then you just sell him and do not "waste" first team time to develop him.

Here's some example. On my previous-previous-previous... career on FM 2007, data from my team players and PA.

http://img206.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=94740_geniescoutpa_122_59lo.jpg

On FM 2007 I did not know about free attributes or footedness. Also Scout reports were 5 stars max. Coach reports for under 20 year old players were like "...has PA to become very good player at this club or "...showing great deal of potential". After player turned 20, then coaches said if player really has PA. So that result is gotten with just "scout every player found add buy those who are quite cheap and get 5 stars". And also, I sent many wrong players on loan on wrong teams because coach reports were just like I mentioned.

Now, playing FM 2008, I have knowledge about footedness and free attributres. Every player, even young ones, get GOOD coach reports. We also have 7 star system. I Also know that scouting top team's youngsters just after they got "promoted youth players" givees good results.

When just "scout and buy players" gives so good results, you can imagine what kind of results is expected using knowledge mentioned above. Of course, about 1 of 6 "top talent" player I buy actually make it to the first team, but that is more than enough when you buy about 15 "top talents" per year...

Sigh. The day SI drop PA is the day they lose complete touch with reality.

The only idea I like in this thread is separating out abilities for mental, physical and technical - but this is fraught with problems as well.