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Kenwyne
08-08-2008, 09:01
F*CK THE F*CK OFF. PLEASE.

I know my tactics obviously have faults, but if you're not going to give me any help from my assistant, then at least have the 2D show me playing badly so I can work out what to change. Not battering the opposition and watching as they arse a goal from a bad throw-in, backpass or defensive clearance. Seven games in a row I have gotten this message post match. It is absolutely doing my head in.

/rant

Goofus
08-08-2008, 09:05
careful with the vulgarities there, you might get banned.

Relax, and slowly figure out what's wrong with your tactics. Watching the match in Full Match mode might help. It might exploit where you're going wrong better. Watching the game in 'key' sometimes misses out the parts that show your weaknesses.

glamdring
08-08-2008, 10:50
Rueing (looks like dodgy spelling!) missed chances has nothing to do with how the opponents score. You said yourself that you battered your opponents so presumably you didn't score enough goals to win - seems pretty obvious to me that either your attacking players can't hit a barn door, they are shooting from stupid positions, they are playing it around and dominating possession, but not actually creating anything or your opponents just happen to be defending very well. Whatever the case it should be blatantly obvious from the 2d match - how to fix it is less obvious of course, but then that is the case in all walks of life - identifying a problem is often easier than fixing it.

I have the same problem at Werder Bremen - competing against a Bayern Munich team who win 9 games on the trot to start the season (last season it was 11 and 31 unbeaten until they came to Bremen having already won the title by miles) I can't afford to drop many points, but despite playing almost every opponent off the park we keep either just scoring one and then conceding a stupid goal or just not scoring at all...it is clearly down to the accuracy of my players' shooting and the fact I have 3 AMCs all shooting from range quite often, but it still isn't easy to fix - I take the AMCs off long shots and then the goals dry up even more...I like the challenge of tweaking the tactics though even though it is an exercise in re-arranging the deck chairs when you factor in the effect of team talks!

kiwityke
08-08-2008, 10:56
My problems the opposite I can score for fun, just when it matters my defenders decide to go and have a break, have kit kat. The opposition run through the massive gap and score! I regularly draw away games 3-3, after hammering them for most of the game. I dread goin 2-0 up after only 20 mins I know the AI is goin to make a totally unrealistic come back!

Nadessico
08-08-2008, 11:09
if i recall i solved the huge gaps in defence by lowering the 2 CB's "Closing down" to just about "own box"

maybe try giving that a shot.

chopper99
08-08-2008, 11:12
My problems the opposite I can score for fun, just when it matters my defenders decide to go and have a break, have kit kat. The opposition run through the massive gap and score! I regularly draw away games 3-3, after hammering them for most of the game. I dread goin 2-0 up after only 20 mins I know the AI is goin to make a totally unrealistic come back!

It's not unrealistic that the AI will try and get back into a game that they're 2-0 down in. The problem is simply that you haven't figured out how to combat it. Any real life manager worth his salt will have methods of holding onto leads in various situations. Managers that can't do this in real life probably aren't managers for long.

Gentleman
08-08-2008, 18:31
It's not unrealistic that the AI will try and get back into a game that they're 2-0 down in. The problem is simply that you haven't figured out how to combat it. Any real life manager worth his salt will have methods of holding onto leads in various situations. Managers that can't do this in real life probably aren't managers for long.
Neither in real life and, how ironic it may sound, in the game, as you get sacked by then as well.

I've seen the same problem several times as well. Both in games where I was leading with 2 or where I was down with 2 goals. At some point, people (or numbered circles, whatever floats your boat) simply get kicked back to reality and start realizing that they are actually losing. Now, one of these factors is the determination which determines how much they want to turn things around. Luckily I have a very determined squad, so I'd rather be down with 2 goals, since then my team seems to work a lot better and actually beat the other team clueless and usually come out winning with 2-3.
The problem is the other way around. If you're 2 goals up and start losing focus, while the other team starts to realize they're actually losing, there are a few things to do:
1. Give them a team talk which will make them realize they're easing up too much
2. If you notice the forwards are good at breaking the offside trap, make sure your defenders go deep
3. Don't let your defenders close down, it will only give away more chances, while they can just wait for that timely tackle
4. Start playing the offside trap, if the forwards tend to run often
5. Start going on a full-out attack; sometimes the offense is the best defence
6. Get 10 men behind the ball, slow short passing to keep possession or perhaps a counter-tactic, which means they can't let their own backs move up, or they get another goal down

There might be even more to do, and some of them simply won't work against a particular opponent, but it all boils down on how you, the manager, decide what should be working against this particular team. The above are only a few suggestions which worked for me, but as you can see, some teams need a completely different approach than what worked before.
If there was just 1 way to win things, there wouldn't be any draws anymore.

matfarrell
08-08-2008, 18:47
Yeah I was having this problem, but like has been said, the more determined the better, and now my scout reports say "Eric believes you have a bunch of very determined players and playerx does/doesnt fit this mould. And there are less AI comebacks

Amaroq
08-08-2008, 19:27
Offense - to Kenwyne's OP:

Several things play into the syndrome that creates that statement, and they're primarily psychological, not tactical.

Confidence is the biggest one. If your tactic generates too many half-chances - hurried shots due to quick tempo or too much "Attacking" mentality, or long-range efforts - early in a game, those missed shots sap your striker's confidence. When they are low on confidence, they are much more likely to miss sitters later in the game. Conversely, giving the opposing GK a couple of easy saves builds his confidence, and if you let him get in the zone, you wind up with the fabled "superkeeper" problem. You can see how these two would feed into each other!

Tactically, if you suspect that that's the case for you, the suggestion is to stop judging your tactic based on "shots" and start judging it based on "goals". Usually, that means a reduction in mentality and tempo, shorter passing, and more passing options (forward runs, not arrows). It might be a global setting for you, or it might be as simple as adjusting your strikers individually. Remember, individual Mentality settings are relative to the position, so a smack-in-the-center Mentality for a central defender yields very defensive behavior, and a smack-in-the-center Mentality for a striker results in plenty of good chances.

Sometimes the tactical change is simpler: remember that different strikers do better on the left or on the right. I had a match recently which I completely turned around by swapping sides for my strikers. In the first 30 minutes, one, "JT", had had several clear-cut chances but golfed them well over the net. I'd had him playing on the right, and he's right-footed; it looked like the chances had all forced him to take the shots with his left foot. I swapped sides, and he buried his next chance, my other striker scored later, and JT finished off a 3-2 comeback with an 89th minute goal. I wound up with "8"s from both of them, and a Man of the Match for JT.

You can also address Confidence through Team Talks: different strikers respond differently to different "strokes" while they're suffering. I've had one who just needed a "No pressure", and would respond with a goal or two, and I've had another who needed a "Expect a performance". Being encouraging ("I have faith") rarely goes wrong, but may not break the player out of a slump. I've always have very good luck with "You can make the difference", "Prove a Point!", and "Pick up where you left off", especially for strikers.

Remember that you can also go in with the Player-Interaction functions. Your striker is putting in 6's and 7's but not scoring? Tell him his performance is "Below Par". If he's really struggling, with 5's and 6's, tell him his performance is awful. Not every player responds well to criticism, but enough do that its worth a shot.

Finally, there's the hidden attribute "Consistency". Sometimes, no matter what you do, an inconsistent player just goes into a slump. I had one striker, highest valued player on my team, my leading scorer in '07-'08 .. who went into a slump at the start of the '08-'09 season. Literally, no injuries, just couldn't score, and despite trying all of the tricks above, he had zero goals on December 15th. I'd had enough; I sold him. I knew that once he broke out of the slump, he'd go on a tear of 2- and 3-goal games, but I need more consistent performance than that.

Gentleman
08-08-2008, 19:47
... which reminds me. I really like to see something where I can view which players responds how to which team talk in which situation. I have absolutely no clue about how to make that, nor do I believe SI will have it applied to FM 09, but it would certainly be nice to have.
I'm not even talking about it automatically, but you should be able to note it down somewhere. And with that I don't mean the 'Notes' which you can use, but which is incredibly annoying to use for 11 players when you're in a Team Talk halfway the game.

So, the only way to have a decent overview is to write it down on a sheet of paper, or by having a spreadsheet where you keep track of that instead. Which is, by the way, just as annoying as above options.

Swapping strikers is good, by the way. All of a sudden your striker is up against a defender who hasn't had the time to adjust to your movements. I often do that if they don't seem to create chances, or only half-chances. It hurts much more if your opponent does that though, as I usually match my fastest defender with their fastest striker and such, which means that my defenders sometimes leave their 'own' spot open in order to follow the striker around to the other side of the pitch.

Amaroq
08-08-2008, 19:52
Defense - to kiwityke:

Defending a lead is probably the most challenging aspect of FM'08. My tips are as follows.

Create two defensive tactics for yourself. One is a 4-4-2, with Counter-attacking on .. the other is either a 4-4-2 or a 4-5-1, depending on your preference, which is designed to nullify the dreaded 4-2-4 and 2-3-5 formations.

Halftime. You're up 2-0. If its a match which you expected to win (odds-favorite) or were pretty close (odds 7-4 / 5-4 underdog), say "None" as a team-talk, and "Pleased" for any player on an 8. If its a match which you expected to lose (odds-underdog, pre-match team talk "luck", "no pressure"), say "Pleased". Also, switch to your 4-4-2 Counter-attack.

Likewise, if you take a two-goal lead in the second half, switch to your 4-4-2 Counter-attack.

75th minute, you're up two goals. Switch to your Defensive formation, whatever you chose.

80th minute, you're up one goal. Switch to your Defensive formation.

Your counter-attacking formation looks something like this:

Overall: Below-average Mentality, Direct passing, Quick tempo, narrower than average, defensive line matches Mentality, Counter-attack ticked. Offsides trap is your choice. Zonal marking. Even if you normally use a Playmaker, turn him off. Through balls "Mixed" for most players, no more than one on "Often".

Centre-backs: Forward runs "Mixed". Closing down "Own Area". Zonal marking, not tight. Mentality Defensive. At least one on "Stay Back" for throw-ins, corners, and free kicks.
Full-backs: Forward runs "Mixed". No arrows. Closing down a bit higher than your centre-backs. Zonal marking, not tight. Mentality a bit higher than DC's, but still Defensive. "Back if Needed" for corners and free kicks.
Wingers: Forward runs "Mixed", RWB "Often". Arrows from ML to AML at most, but that's optional - I'd do it with a top-of-the-table team, but not with a relegation battler. Mentality team. Closing down average. Tight marking - yes.
MCd: Fwd runs "Rarely", RWB "Rarely", "Hold up ball". Mentality a few ticks defensive of team, closing down a few ticks below average. "Outside area" for corner kicks.
MCa: Fwd runs "Often", RWB "Mixed", Mentality team or a few ticks over. Closing down average or a few ticks over. Not tight marking.
ST: vanilla, team or defaults throughout.

The theory behind these settings is this:
- Your centre backs are focusing on defense, not on getting another goal.
- Closing down is the midfield's responsibility, not the defenders.
- Enough "Back if Needed" players that, even if the opposition leaves three guys forward on a defensive corner kick, you should have them marked
- Fullbacks are defensive enough that even if the opposition shifts to a 4-2-4, you should have it covered long enough to switch to your Defensive formation.
- Defenders "fwd runs mixed" ensures that they are willing to cross the half-way line to win a fifty-fifty ball, as long as there is somebody behind them - that will help prevent a chunk of opposition buildups.
- MCd on "Outside area" means he will collect many partial-clearances on corner kicks.


Your defensive formation looks something like this:

Overall: Defensive Mentality, Direct passing, Quick tempo, narrow, defensive line matches Mentality, Counter-attack ticked. Offsides trap off. Zonal marking. Even if you normally use a Playmaker, turn him off. Through balls "Mixed" for most players, no more than one on "Often".

Centre-backs: Forward runs "Mixed". Closing down "Own Area", maybe one or two ticks less than you had in your counter-attack formation. Zonal marking, not tight. Mentality Defensive. Both on "Stay Back" for throw-ins, corners, and free kicks.
Full-backs: Forward runs "Rarely". No arrows. Closing down a tad higher than your centre-backs. Zonal marking, tight. Mentality a bit higher than DC's, but still Defensive. "Stay Back" or "Back if Needed" for throws, corners and free kicks.
Wingers: Forward runs "Mixed", RWB "Mixed". No arrows. Mentality team. Closing down average. Tight marking.
DM/MCd: Fwd runs "Rarely", RWB "Rarely". Mentality a few ticks defensive of team, closing down a few ticks below average. "Outside area" for corner kicks.
MCa: Fwd runs "Mixed", RWB "Mixed", Mentality team or a few ticks over. Closing down average.
ST: Mentality average, but set to defaults and/or team elsewhere. No more than one striker on "Stay Forward" for defensive corner-kicks and free kicks - if you have a tall-striker, quick-striker combo, let the tall striker play defense while the quick striker stays up top.

The theory behind these settings is this:
- All four defenders are focusing on defense to shut down the 4-2-4. Don't let them go forward, period, ever.
- Closing down is the midfield's responsibility, not the defenders.
- Enough players "Stay Back" that, even if the opposition leaves four guys forward on a defensive corner kick, you should have them marked
- Central defenders "fwd runs mixed" still ensures that they are willing to cross the half-way line to win a fifty-fifty ball, as long as there is somebody behind them - that will help prevent a chunk of opposition buildups.
- MCd on "Outside area" means he will collect many partial-clearances on corner kicks.

Optional - if you have a pacey striker or three, you might set these two tactics to "Use Target Man", "Run Onto Ball". This might require tweaking, if your normal target-man is by height, you'll have to remember to adjust your "Target Men" when you change tactics .. but it can be deadly to bring on a fresh-legged pacey striker in the final fifteen minutes while defending a lead. He's a major threat to score the knock-out punch ...


Hope that helps.

(Mods - maybe this thread ought to get moved to Tactics and Training Tips at this point?)

angryfmer
08-08-2008, 19:58
F*CK THE F*CK OFF. PLEASE.


lol
i seem to say that aswell when i concede from idiotic mistakes


to be honest i havent played fm in a few weeks now
it helps to have a break
because i think my blood pressure was getting high
i seemed to take my fm frustration out on everybody around me

its like the only way the computer can score is to make your players to stupid stuff

rakhabbit
08-08-2008, 22:40
But it's too easy to make these tactical errors that result in frustration, anger and broken teacups.

The game gives absolutely NO help in fixing it.

We have 9 sliders and 5 checkboxes
overidden by 11 lots of 10 sliders and 7 checkboxes

so a set of tactical instructions is a combination upto 119 sliders and 82 checkboxes
some of those sliders have 20 positions, some only 3 ... this pushes the possible cominations even higher

with the way the match engine works in 1 game you may have a fair bit of lee way, say 5-7 positions away from optimal but in others its sometimes as low as 1 click too many on the slider results in a loss.

player attributes often seem totally irrelavant because of how the ME prioritses all those sliders/checkboxes.

i realise it's this way, because SI want it to be a better reflection of reality, but when something becomes this complicated FEEDBACK becomes essential.

Amaroq
08-08-2008, 22:58
I'm absolutely with you about the need for improved feedback - I've been harping on that since FM'05! :cool: And to be fair, much of the feedback has improved since then: scouting, coach reports, team-talk feedback, all of those have improved a lot. Yes, we still need Ranjith's long-ago-proposed "Match Analyzer" and tactical feedback from our Assistant, I agree with you.