Fixing the Flaws with the Gundo Challenge

Hi guys,

Most of you will be aware that I'm the Head Researcher for Northern Ireland, and more recently, the Republic of Ireland as well. I'm also an active player in the dafuge and gundo challenges.

As the Head Researcher for two of the leagues that are prominent within the challenge I'm looking at improving and passing word directly onto the coders of the key flaws that appear while taking part in these challenges.

Many of your issues can be addressed by myself in the database without contacting the coders, but other issues, such as the belief by gamers that the 'league reputation' field remains static can be addressed by coders. For this and other problems you've encountered could you please post in this thread screen shots and general gripes you have with the way the game develops. For example, im well aware that if a Northern Irish club had the finances of a premiership club and made the group stages of the champions league each season, the whole profile of that league would improve and players would be more willing to move to the country, scouting networks would be boosted etc, however this doesn't happen and needs addressed.

I look forward to hearing and passing on your feedback,

Many thanks,

Mark Hill

NI & ROI Head Researcher

I wish this had come last year, my Kilmore Rec game would have had all the evidence needed.

I currently have a game based in NI in 2020 where the club has reached the CL 1st knockout round but their most valuable player is £80k. If there's anything specific you want to see, let me know, I'll see if I can help.

Many of your issues can be addressed by myself in the database without contacting the coders, but other issues, such as the belief by gamers that the 'league reputation' field remains static can be addressed by coders. For this and other problems you've encountered could you please post in this thread screen shots and general gripes you have with the way the game develops. For example, im well aware that if a Northern Irish club had the finances of a premiership club and made the group stages of the champions league each season, the whole profile of that league would improve and players would be more willing to move to the country, scouting networks would be boosted etc, however this doesn't happen and needs addressed.

That has essentially hit the nail on the proverbial head.

The whole fact that league reputation is static is what is causing the problems, gripes, and unrealistic occurrences happening in the game when playing as clubs from small countries, or unreputable leagues.

The first step to solving this would be linking league reputation with the European co-efficients. Not completely linked but a league ranked in the top 15 European leagues should not have a reputation of below 10. Making European co-efficients one of the factors that determine league reputation would be a good step.

The next factor in determining league reputations would be the club reputations, particularly of the top few clubs in the league. The Premiership is highly regarded due to the success and reputation of its biggest clubs. For a long time, Serie A was thought of as the best league, it declined as English clubs became more successful in Europe. German clubs, pre 2000, were doing very well in European competitions, correspondingly, the Bundesliga was thought of as equal or better than the Premier League, now it is not.

Another problem needing solving is the fixed prize money pie in competitions. Increasingly reputable leagues and successful teams would attract more sponsorship and lead to bigger prizes. Therefore, a player taking a N.I. side to Group Stages of UCL would lead to more money in the Northern Irish league, which would be spread around the other clubs and make them more competitive.

The fixed league reputations etc is partly the reason I did my AI Experiment, and this topic of interest always fascinates me.

Not sure if this should be posted here on here, it may need discussing before being implemented but all players born after 1st Jan 2005 in Northern Ireland automatically automatically with dual nationality for the Rep of Ireland and Northern Ireland according to the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act, 2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_n...y_law#At_birth

Will this be implemented for FM09? Thought i'd post it here as it affects the gundo challenge once players are 15 seasons in.

Cheers

Of course this issue is much bigger than just Northern Ireland but I think whatever fix for it they do that it isn't overdone. I don't want to see a you getting to the group stage one year and suddenly improving the league and then in 5 years its a top nation and easy to win. Some kind of system to make Ukraine possible where the top one or two teams finds success, the added money and reputation of the team allows it to sign better players including those from western Europe. Slowly with continued success and greater money in the league as a whole the rest of the teams can start to attract a higher calibre of player therefore allowing the player as a top club to continue to grow over a number of seasons rather than being thwarted.

I'm not sure how this might impact on the number of quality regens in the country (I'm not too sure how fm does this) but if the league is improving it would make sense that people are more passionate about football in the country and the clubs facilities will inprove to nurture them but this should be linked to population of the country so you don't make Iceland a top league over 20-30 seasons and end up with thousands of Icelandic players spread across Europe when there is only a population of 300,000, half of which are women and many of the rest too old or young.

I've gone back to my game in Northern Ireland, firstly in the hope that I can get a bit nearer to completing the challenge and secondly to hopefully provide some useful information.

Firstly, a little background information on my club:

I'm managing Sirocco Works, who were previously unplayable but were quickly promoted to the Premier league under my management.

League Finishes

As you can see, they have quickly become the dominant force in NI football.

Champions League Record

They have become established as a Champions League group stage regular.

Finances

They have the sort of money in the bank an English Premier League team would be proud of.

Club Info

Pretty good for a club from Northern Ireland, they have already moved to a new stadium.

Star Player

He wouldn't look out of place in the English Premier League

As I play my game and spot things that look a bit out of place I'll make a new post and try to provide the necessary screenshots. Hopefully some of this will be useful.

Player Values

The visible values of my players are quite clearly being limited by the league I am playing in.

Squad

This is a team of players all under 27 who have reached the first knockout round of the Champions League, should they all be valued under £80k?

John Vaughan

He's worth £12k, with no effort at all I was able to sell him for £1m with multiple clubs bidding for him, I probably could have got more if I'd tried.

Staff Numbers

When offering contracts, the board suggest I should have one coach, one physio and two scouts.

This is what I have

I've pushed it to the absolute limit, but for a club consistently competing in the Champions League, with £47m in the bank this just isn't good enough.

Assistant Reports / Scout Reports

When playing in the English leagues I can use the scout reports with the stars to work out how good a signing could be for the club or the assistant report to see how good my current team is. Since I've become the dominant force in the NI league, the stars and descriptions have become almost meaningless.

My Assistant

20 for judging player ability, so I trust his judgement.

Team Report

All that tells me is that three of the players are slightly less perfect than the rest, it is completely useless. When renewing a contract with a player, he seems to always say 'he is one of the best players at the club'. This isn't that helpful when he says it for nearly everyone.

Striker

A striker in my squad who is getting 7 stars, he is also the '4th best striker in the squad'

Scouted Player

The same sort of thing happens when I scout players. This player is given 7 stars and the 'leading star for most Premier League sides' tag but he would be the 6th best striker in my squad.

Scout reports have become completely useless, meaning it is almost complete guesswork as to whether a player would actually be a good signing for my club. All they seem to be able to tell me is if a player is on a par with my team, which is no good if I want to improve my team.

Lack of Domestic Competition

The other domestic clubs just can't seem to compete, it is far too easy to dominate the league.

League Table

Linfield were the closest challengers, so here's a look at the incoming transfers made by the two clubs:

Linfield

Sirocco Works

It really shouldn't be that easy, Linfield are a 'rich' club, they should be busting the bank to try and close the gap.

Prize Money

The amount of money I'm getting for winning the league really isn't worth me playing in it.

League Prize Money

I get a whopping £8k for winning the league, despite raking in millions in the Champions League. The £6k in TV rights is a bit off as well.

League Win Bonus

My players get over 11 times the prize money for winning the league.

That has essentially hit the nail on the proverbial head.

The whole fact that league reputation is static is what is causing the problems, gripes, and unrealistic occurrences happening in the game when playing as clubs from small countries, or unreputable leagues.

Says it all, really. Great work Daf too with that info.

niresearch, I'm sure you've heard my gripes of N. Ireland back when you set me the challenge a few months ago. I was most upset that the Static rep was giving me troubles signing more coaches, expanding my scouting network and generally holding me back from turning Knockbreda FC into world beaters.

Daf's pretty much covered everything else, with regards to Prize money etc - but one other thing I noticed was the fact that boards never got bought out. So there was never any "New money" thrown into the clubs so far behind me. The other problem really is the fact that so few teams get promoted into the NI2 - because of the way the playoffs work, so there was never much opportunity for new clubs to build careers.

Also, with regards to signing players, the closest rivals to me (Also Linfield, funnily enough) - were happy to just "sell" me their players. So I could easily keep the competition at bay by simply buying the players each season that could cause me trouble. The fact that my bank balance was in the multi-millions, and the highest valued players cost around £300,000 - £500,000 - I could do this without even considering putting my club in financial difficulty, but at the same time, it wasn't enough to give the other clubs enough cash to strengthen the squads.

This is all great, thanks guys - i can't guarentee the static league rep issue will be resolved, but without it being highlighted in a manner such as this, it certainly won't be!

Not sure if this should be posted here on here, it may need discussing before being implemented but all players born after 1st Jan 2005 in Northern Ireland automatically automatically with dual nationality for the Rep of Ireland and Northern Ireland according to the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act, 2004.

Will this be implemented for FM09? Thought i'd post it here as it affects the gundo challenge once players are 15 seasons in.

Cheers

Quite simply, no this will not be implemented. There is a lot of social factors that surround that law and it isn't simply a case of EVERYONE born has dual nationality - they have the RIGHT to dual nationality, but don't automatically have dual nationality - for example, if i was to have a son tomorrow, he would not and never would be brought up as a member of the republic of ireland - thats no disrespect to those that are from the republic, or indeed those in northern ireland who wish to be classed as a member of the republic of ireland - for me, thats like trying to tell an englishman that he must have dual nationality as a scotsman, or vice-versa. Even introducing a random chance of players having dual nationality with both countries, won't work and create a hell of a lot of unrealistic scenarios in the game. Unfortunately, as most will be aware this a religious based law, introduced to appease certain sections of the community in Northern Ireland, it isn't something that needs to be addressed in a computer game. I'd also ask that no further comments be passed on this issue here, if you wish to develop the case for it's inclusion further, please email irishresearcher@googlemail.com

for me, thats like trying to tell an englishman that he must have dual nationality as a scotsman, or vice-versa

Yeah that would be hellish.

Fixture Congestion

The league in Northern Ireland isn't really designed to cope with a club reaching the group stages of the Champions League, so a lot of games get postponed creating a build up of matches towards the end of the season.

12 games in April

In this game I only reached the 1st knockout round of the UEFA Cup after finishing third in my CL group. In a game I had last year with FM07 when reaching the CL final things got silly, I had 5 games in 5 days at one point.

Stupid Bids

I'm not sure if this is something unique to my game or a more widespread problem but I'm getting regular pathetic bids for my players.

Like this

The only time the chairman ever steps in is when I offer a player out, and then it is usually for a bid in the millions (despite the value of the player being less than £100k). It is far too easy to hold on to my best players for the lengths of their contracts simply because clubs won't bid reasonable amounts for the players.

Rejecting all these bids gets a bit tiresome as well, there are hundreds of them during the summer transfer window.

Fixture Congestion

The league in Northern Ireland isn't really designed to cope with a club reaching the group stages of the Champions League, so a lot of games get postponed creating a build up of matches towards the end of the season.

12 games in April

In this game I only reached the 1st knockout round of the UEFA Cup after finishing third in my CL group. In a game I had last year with FM07 when reaching the CL final things got silly, I had 5 games in 5 days at one point.

I can vouch for this occurring, in my saved game based on my challenge (which is the Northern Irish league replaced), I had reached the UEFA Cup Second Knockout Round after finishing third in my CL Group and this resulted in 13 games in April. An excerpt from my update:

"This all hides something which caused a great deal of grief for my squad and team. The amount of games we had to pack into our schedule towards the end of the season. In the month of April, we played 13 matches. We had matches on the 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th (4 games in 7 days), 11th, 13th, 16th, 20th, 23rd, 25th, 26th, 28th and 30th. That final stretch from the 23rd saw 5 games in 8 days."

I think it mainly stems from not playing games midweek earlier in the season or when Europe is not in session. Also, I found when playing the lower leagues in Northern Ireland that my team in the latter part of the season would only play one game every two or three weeks, making it hard to keep the players fit. Is this what really happens in Northern Ireland?

There is a handy 'reject all bids below' a certain amount feature dafuge.

The risk in 'fixing' some of these issues, as I see it is that you might unbalance the game somewhat.

Take the Scottish league: Celtic (and ok, Rangers) are massive clubs. With their fan bases and if they had access to the TV cash in the Premiership, they'd be well up there as the biggest in Europe, no doubt in my mind about it.

But as it stands, due to the pitiful TV money in scotland, there's only so 'big' they can get, in terms of attracting and affording players. Simply put, them being big, and in the recent past reasonably successful in Europe, hasn't made the Scottish game as a whole massive.

Sure, things might increase steadily over time, to a certain degree, but no matter how good you make any team from Northern Ireland or any other non-major nation, there's a very limited degree to which it would improve the standing of their domestic league.

So while all the problems raised are very valid, the solutions to them really are not.

Wegason, for the lower league teams, it really all depends on how far you progress in the cups. If you make it to the latter stages of each cup, you'll still find yourself with 2 or 3 games a week.

I agree though, the scheduling is silly - and there was many a time in Gundo's Challenge where I'd have 3 games in 4 days - and IIRC I once had 3 games in 3 days. Its not the best.

The bids too are damning, Daf. It even happens in the EPL and lower, where teams bid £20,000 for an £80,000 rated player. IT gets frustrating, as the AI would never accept such bids for first team players.

There is a handy 'reject all bids below' a certain amount feature dafuge.

It was more the value of the bids I was annoyed with. Clubs bidding a fraction of a player's value (and in some cases £0) for an indispensable member of a club who has over £40m in the bank just doesn't make sense.

They're not to know your bank balance, Daf. However, the offers of tedious amounts bug the hell out of me. As you've mentioned the...

"Club X has made an offer for Player A" is annoying. The offer? £0 with £0 upfront and £0 over 36 effing months.

They're not to know your bank balance, Daf.

They can see that my club is 'rich' in the same way I can get an idea about another clubs finances using the club information screen. They can also see that I am 42nd in the richest clubs list.

It isn't necessarily the restrictions of playing in a smaller league that annoys me most, I can accept that since it is realistic. I'm not complaining that I can't sign top players or keep hold of my own, that's just part of playing in a league like this.

What annoys me are the game related restrictions that are imposed on my club because of the standard of the league I play in rather than my finances and reputation in Europe. The scouting issue is probably the most annoying, my scout reports are still relative to the league I am playing in despite my club being clearly a class above the rest. This means I get 7 star rated players who are no where near good enough to get in my team. The restrictions on number of staff members and where I can send my scouts also annoys me. I may not be able to attract players from Brazil but if I can afford it why shouldn't I be able to scout there?

Quite simply, no this will not be implemented. There is a lot of social factors that surround that law and it isn't simply a case of EVERYONE born has dual nationality - they have the RIGHT to dual nationality, but don't automatically have dual nationality - for example, if i was to have a son tomorrow, he would not and never would be brought up as a member of the republic of ireland - thats no disrespect to those that are from the republic, or indeed those in northern ireland who wish to be classed as a member of the republic of ireland - for me, thats like trying to tell an englishman that he must have dual nationality as a scotsman, or vice-versa. Even introducing a random chance of players having dual nationality with both countries, won't work and create a hell of a lot of unrealistic scenarios in the game. Unfortunately, as most will be aware this a religious based law, introduced to appease certain sections of the community in Northern Ireland, it isn't something that needs to be addressed in a computer game. I'd also ask that no further comments be passed on this issue here, if you wish to develop the case for it's inclusion further, please email irishresearcher@googlemail.com

Why can't we discuss the issue here? It's an issue relating to Football and a change i think SI should implement, all be it, not in the fashion I quoted above.

I've read up a little more on the Good Friday Agreement, and hadn't realised it also applied retrospectively as in the Darren Gibson Case and to a lesser extent Tony Kane, Michael O'Connor and Marc Wilson.

As far as I see it, the Good Friday Agreement which was signed in a democratic process allows for any person born in Northern Ireland to take up Irish or British Nationality. This therefore means they are all eligible to play for both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.

While I understand the further implications of the situation remain unclear. The IFA have been told to go to the Court of Arbitration by FIFA if they don't like this situation. (December 07) I've not heard anything being mentioned in relation to this since, so i take it they aren't appealing what FIFA has said.

I would hope that in your dual role as NI and ROI researcher you don't let your own beliefs could your judgement. I appreciate the social aspects of such a decision going forward, and it should be up to SI to code in some kind of decision making into the players, but in terms of players being eligible to play for both countries, this is a fact and must be implemented into the game

If anyone else you like to read up about the back round to this, the Darren Gibson entry on wiki has some good reference articles... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darron_Gibson Articles: 1-5, 11 and 13-15.

A general thing I've noticed with the game, especially while playing the Gundo challenge is that the game does not take distance into consideration when it calculates attendances! Surely a nearby game will add to the base attendance levels governed by the reputation of the visiting team and the competition? Well apparently not, as to test I created a second Solihull team in the editor and waited for their game with Solihull Moors. Both sides had been averaging crowds of 300-400 in other league games, but in the derby between the two the attendance was in the 300s. Now surely if the teams were that close then the travelling support would equal the normal home support of the away team - which would mean an attendance of 600 - but clearly the game isn't structured in that way.

I know it's not related to league coding nor the Gundo challenge in particular, but it's something of an anomaly that I'd noticed and thought it worth bringing up here.

Bloomin hell!

I take a break and a thread like this turns up out of the blue.

I think dafuge seems to have covered quite a bit of stuff that affects us as we start to do will. I know that I have mentioned a few bits an pieces to you in the past which I know you were looking at.

1. Other N.Irish teams are signing LOADS of English (& Irish), players, whose basic ability seems to be far far far superior to the average FRED that is generated at a N.Irish club. I don't mind MOST of the English FREDs being better than MOST of the N.Irish FRED's, but it's a bit of a non-contest at the moment.

2. How are N.Irish clubs signing so many non-N.Irish players when they are unable to get a scout report on them? It's not realistic that so many players will be offered a contract without first being scouted or at least being offered a trial. It would appear that the AI managers are offering contracts to players based on the "well known players in your region" (which in N.Irelands case includes England and Ireland). I would prefer that this be restricted to Nations/areas in which you can scout. (I know my LLM views are in the minority here but......)

4. The U19 & U21 N.Irish teams seem to get hammered at every possible opportunity.

25/3/2008 (A) (Q) N.Ireland U21 0 Denmark U21 4.

23/3/2010 (H) (Q) N.Ireland U21 0 France U21 4.

19/10/2010 (N) (F) N.Ireland U21 0 Holland U21 5.

8/2/2011 (H) (F) N.Ireland 0 Belarus 3.

29/3/2011 (N) (F) N.Ireland 0 Norway 4.

3/6/2011 (H) (Q) N.Ireland 0 Croatia 4.

18/11/2011 (A) (Q) N.Ireland 0 Switzerland 6.

27/3/2012 (A) (Q) N.Ireland 0 Croatia 10 (ten).

7/9/2012 (H) (Q) N.Ireland 0 Norway 5.

16/10/2012 (N) (F) N.Ireland 0 Ireland 9.

16/11/2012 (A) (F) N.Ireland 1 South Korea 5.

2013

Lost to Armenia 0-3

Lost to Georgia 1-4

Lost to Finland 1-4

Lost to Ukraine 0-5

Lost to Spain 0-5

Lost to Armenia 1-4

2014

Lost to Iceland 0-5

Lost to Ukraine 0-3.

Lost to Finland 1-3.

Lost to Sweden 0-10 (ten).

Lost to Egypt 1-11 (eleven).

2015

Lost to Slovakia 0-4.

Lost to Czech 0-7.

Lost to Bulgaria 0-10 (ten).

Lost to Greece 0-7.

Lost to Sweden 0-7.

Lost to Moldova 0-8.

Lost to Moldova 0-4.

Lost to Czech 0-16 (sixteen).

Lost to Bulgaria 0-4.

Lost to Austria 0-7.

2016

Lost to Sweden 2-7.

Lost to Hungary 1-4.

Lost to Malta 0-5.

Lost to Macedonia 0-9.

Can't be bothered to go any further but you get the idea.

This was originally explained away with it being linked with the "grey player" bug that was at least corrected a bit in the last patch. Like I said, it helped a bit but not enough.

5. According to the game, the U21's playt their game at the Maze National Stadium, Lisburn, (or something similar). Sometimes these games are listed as home games and sometimes they are listed as Neutral games. Maybe this is having an adverse affect on the scores listed above.

6. Because of the influx of English youngsters, the N.Irish leagues wuickly become full of English players who are signed on a free once they have been released by an ENglish Premiership club. SO these kids will move to a foreign Country to play for a semi-pro club and get paid less than you get for being on the dole. I really don't think so.

7. Ex English Premiership veterans moving to N.Ireland to finish their career. Not very likely when there are Conference National teams on their doorstep paying 10x the wages.

8. The strength of "grey" Irish teams that you meet in the All Ireland Cup still seems to be ridiculously high even after the last patch tweaks.

Sorry. I'm tired and can't think of any more.

8. The strength of "grey" Irish teams that you meet in the All Ireland Cup still seems to be ridiculously high even after the last patch tweaks.

I've noticed that as well, some of the Irish teams have given me a better game than a lot of the teams I have faced in the Champions League group stages.

Another couple of things that I've been meaning to mention in here.

1. When you sell a good player in the English Premiership, he might stay in the Premieship or he might drop down to the Championship or even occasionslly he might go down as far as League 1. There is always France, Italy, Germany and Spain and loads of Scandinavian countries all whom are keen to take your better players. As a result, you don't meet many ex players on a week to week basis, (at least not until you have done many seasons). In N.Ireland it's different. Your better players aren't generally good enough for other Nations so if you sell/release them they usually end up at other Premiership clubs. After a few seasons this means that every single league game is pre-empted by the media shambles about the ex-player. It might work(ish) in the English strcture.

It certainly doesn't work in N.Ireland. God knows how it works in a Nation with fewer tiers than N.Ireland's.

2. The other thing si that there seems to be an awful lack of PPM's in N.Ireland in 2018 in my game. I've played through to a similar date in ENgland and there were loads. In Ireland almost none at all. I don't mind them having PPM's and being crap. But I do mind that they don't have them at all.

I don't use a scouting tool so I can't tell you numbers I'm afraid. Sorry.

Random thought: would it be possible for leagues to expand (and possibly contract) according to their reputation/uefa coefficient.

For example, some of the 16-team leagues (Bulgaria, Czech, Greece, Ukraine, etc.) expanding to 18 and 20 team competitions if they move far enough up the uefa rankings.

Something else I've found, and I know I mentioned it to you with the game out of the box, (and at least got it toned down), but there are far too many ex English Premiership players finishing their careers at N.Irish clubs.

I'm in 2019 so we are getting through the end of them now, but I have just played against an Institute team featuring Phil Jagielka and Gary McSheffrey.

I'll look through the Premiershp squads and see who I recognise.

Nicky Hunt is at Ballymena.

Jamie Winter is at Ballymena.

Anthonly McNamee is at Glentoran.

That's only 5 that I can see in the Premiership at the moment but I will have a quick look back over the transfers that I can see because I know I have seen others.

Jason Shackell went to Portadown in April 2018.

Caleb Folan went to Chimney Corner in April 2017.

DJ Campbell went to Limavady in April 2016.

Steve Kabba went to Dungannon in April 2014.

Luke Chadwick went to Ballinmallard in March 2014.

Clarke Carlisle went to Cliftonville in March 2013.

Gary O'Neill went to Wajehurst in August 2012. (Must admit that I don't know if it os him or just same name).

Going back further, the ones that I can remember playing against are...

Richard Cresswell.

Riccardo Scimeca.

Brett Ormerod.

Maik Taylor, (ok so he is N.Irish but it's not very likely).

Andy Gorman.

Dominic Matteo.

Dale Gordon, (am I getting mixed up with Dean Gordon?) possibly. lol.

Daryl Fordyce. This was about the worst I can remember. He left Portsmouty to join Glentoran for 3-4 years before joining what seems like half the N.Irish team at Burnley, (slight exaggeration there).

Then we have the guys right at the beginning of the game.

Neil lennon.

Michael Hughes.

David Unsworth.

Kevin Phillips.

Ian Pearce.

Dominic Matteo.

Chris Lucketti.

Marc Edworrthy.

Dion Dublin.

I am sure there were/are more, but that's all I can remember/find for now.3

I am sure you will agree that some/many of these are pretty unrealistic and all of them together is pretty ridiculous.

Cheers Jim.