Team Talks

Hi, I've been playing CM and FM since 01/02 and regularly read this forums for advice, tips etc. After managing to get Leeds to the prem in successive seasons (despite the HUGE points deduction in the first season) I'm relatively pleased with my progress with 08.

However, there are still a number of things that vastly annoy me.

The obvious one is the perceived "super keepering" that basically every player has pointed out in either the bugs or the tactics forums. After doing some testing, my friend and I realised that it happens more and more depending on the size of the club, so as leeds playing the bottom team in the league for example. I will try and explain my point - the poor conference side you are playing in the League Cup really have no chance to win and so obv I have lots of chances. Strangely enough though, their bloody keeper becomes superman and it takes ALOT of decent shots before any go in. However, once the first goes in, the keeper seems to lose heart (much like the rest of his team) and so eventually goes on to concede 3 or 4. This happens regularly - and occasionally they even manage to get a 0-0 draw.

This isnt much of a problem against the small teams, because as I said, most of the time you end up winning anyway. However, the serious problems arise in the higher leagues (or in europe). Although ur team is vastly better than a team you are playing, and thus you have lots of chances, the quality of the keepers is MUCH higher and so they never actually concede that first goal (and thus let the flood gates open). And due to the improved quality of their strikers, they more often than not have a couple of chances themselves, and score 1 or 2 of them! This ends up with the (frequently posted) screenshots from people where they have lost a game when they've had over 10 shots on target and scored none of them.

My question (and one of the points of this post) is WHY exactly this occurs. Clearly SI have put this behaviour in for a reason. My only guess is that they are modelling an "inspired" keeper playing against a much better team (see Brad Friedal against Man U last season - he was amazing that entire game, up until BBurn conceded, then looked a broken man). Although this clearly DOES occur in real life, the number of occurances is still very low, hence why people can remember the one or two games that it does, despite the huge number of games in a season.

Thoughts?

My second point is related to team talks. I have read all the information about them and the advice people have given, and I still have come to the same conclusion. This is that most of the time they are there to give you an opportunity to screw yourself and your team over, rather than actually helping them. For example, it is well known that going into half time 2-0 up is terrifying, since ur team completely ignore your talks and inevitably the AI gets their team going. This ends up with a situation where the opposition score early(ish) in the 2nd half and then you spend the rest of it biting your nails while they try and get the equaliser.

Combining this two problems ends up with my matches being terrifying and stressful! Do any of the rest of you agree with this? Does it happen to you aswell? If it does, I really think they need to be sorted for 09 (if they havent already)...

I'd be interested to see the results of your testing. I don't see this problem anyway. Sure a few games go by where I have alot of chances and don't get the result I deserve but that is football. I really don't see it happening all the time like people suggest.

Regarding team talks, saying nothing is often better than saying anything, especially when 2-0 up at half time.

I'd be interested to see the results of your testing. I don't see this problem anyway. Sure a few games go by where I have alot of chances and don't get the result I deserve but that is football. I really don't see it happening all the time like people suggest.

I'd be happy to post some of the results, but I don't have them in front of me atm, will probably post them a bit later. One thing I definitely noticed was changing the behaviour of your strikers helps reduce the chance that the opposing keeper will gain super powers, reducing the number of shots so that each one is of a higher quality etc. However, there are some games where this STILL happens despite the changes. Also, what league to do play in? The super keepering issue is definitely more prevalent in the higher leagues in europe (england, spain and italy mostly) and in the TOP devision of these leagues.

Regarding team talks, saying nothing is often better than saying anything, especially when 2-0 up at half time.

Yes, I worked this out myself aswell. However although saying nothing is probably the best tactic, the other team is STILL being pushed by the AI and so the 2-0 problem still seems to occur anyway (although not quite as badly). In my opinion, there tends to be only really 1 thing to say to your players that will make them play properly, out of 5 or so choices. So thats a 20% chance you'll give the correct talk, and 80% chance you wont. That sounds alot like rigged gamble don't you think? Wouldn't it be a better idea to be the other way round - I mean after all, why would your players decide they can't be arsed just because of a comment you've made to them at the start/half time. Basically what I'm saying is, team talks are almost TOO powerful.

Why do I have to choose between being pleased and warning my team against complacency when 2-0 up half time?

If I was a real life manager I'd be saying both. In game the two options appear to be mutually exclusive.

One thing I definitely noticed was changing the behaviour of your strikers helps reduce the chance that the opposing keeper will gain super powers, reducing the number of shots so that each one is of a higher quality etc.

I don't mean to sound rude, but of course. If the shot is of a higher quality than chances are, the keeper won't save them. Thats why when people post a screenie of a match in which they have 15 shots, it doesn't mean anything. These could all have been longshots. To prove the theory about 'superkeepers or cheating AI' there has to be actual testing, which no one seems to want to do. So that is why I'm interested in results. Every shot needs to be looked at, and evidence needs to point to good shots being saved all the time. Otherwise, superkeepers will always remain a myth (which I think they are anyway).

I usually play in England, starting from the bottom. Right now I'm in the Premiership and the CL with Sheff Wed. But I have also played in La Liga, Ligue 1 and Serie A and cant say that I've ever noticed the problem, not on 8.0.2 anyway.

I don't mean to sound rude, but of course. If the shot is of a higher quality than chances are, the keeper won't save them. Thats why when people post a screenie of a match in which they have 15 shots, it doesn't mean anything. These could all have been longshots. To prove the theory about 'superkeepers or cheating AI' there has to be actual testing, which no one seems to want to do. So that is why I'm interested in results. Every shot needs to be looked at, and evidence needs to point to good shots being saved all the time. Otherwise, superkeepers will always remain a myth (which I think they are anyway).

The problem is what you see on the 2D appears to not always represent what the match engine actually produces. Hence, you see your strikers missing what seem to be straight forward chances or keepers making unlikely saves, when the ME is actually deeming them to be lower quality chances.

It makes me laugh when people complain about heaps of shots and few goals, because the first response is always "they're probably all long shots etc". They're not, I suffer from the '15 shots to 2, lose 0-1' syndrome as much as anyone and what I see on the 2D is my players missing straight forward chances time and again. But they're obviously not that, hence why people feel cheated.

The problem is what you see on the 2D appears to not always represent what the match engine actually produces. Hence, you see your strikers missing what seem to be straight forward chances or keepers making unlikely saves, when the ME is actually deeming them to be lower quality chances.

It makes me laugh when people complain about heaps of shots and few goals, because the first response is always "they're probably all long shots etc". They're not, I suffer from the '15 shots to 2, lose 0-1' syndrome as much as anyone and what I see on the 2D is my players missing straight forward chances time and again. But they're obviously not that, hence why people feel cheated.

This is the exact conclusion that I came to myself (and I'm sure alot of people have done the same). Watching ur world class striker (berbs) control the ball perfectly, then turn and shoot with no defender pressure (counter attack) and the keeper dive a rediculous distance to save in the bottom corner surely would count as a good chance, but its a SOT and not a goal. I have seen both excellent and awful chances both being saved in the same match by the same keeper. I deliberately set my players not to long shot as they frequently miss completely, let alone get close enough for the keeper to save it.

I don't mean to sound rude, but of course. If the shot is of a higher quality than chances are, the keeper won't save them. Thats why when people post a screenie of a match in which they have 15 shots, it doesn't mean anything. These could all have been longshots. To prove the theory about 'superkeepers or cheating AI' there has to be actual testing, which no one seems to want to do. So that is why I'm interested in results. Every shot needs to be looked at, and evidence needs to point to good shots being saved all the time. Otherwise, superkeepers will always remain a myth (which I think they are anyway).

I usually play in England, starting from the bottom. Right now I'm in the Premiership and the CL with Sheff Wed. But I have also played in La Liga, Ligue 1 and Serie A and cant say that I've ever noticed the problem, not on 8.0.2 anyway.

Im sorry but then you are clearly a minority. Looking at the sheer number of posts about super-keepering shows that it is an issue, SI themselves have said they are looking into it and claimed to have fixed it in 802. And as explained above, during our testing we switched long shots to rarely deliberately to discount them in the SOT numbers. Also, as explained above, it doesnt seem to matter how good the chance is, the keeper still seems to save them when in "super" mode.

The thing is, its not just keepers that seem to enter into this "mode". When a player is on fire in a game (such as an 8 or a 9 early on) they sometimes seem to get a burst of adrenaline. They run faster, dribble more cleverly/precisely and make excellent passes, despite their stats. Almost as if they are playing above their own level. This can be clearly seen because the rest of your team isnt doing this, so it stands out. I believe in the match engine this can happen to keepers, explaining some of the insane saves some of them pull off.

I'm with Neij, i've never encountered these constant bouts of playing against a superkeeper, sure i have the odd occasion where nothing gets past the oppo GK but i know full well that happens occasionally and accept it. I've played just over 20 games in my first season with Barnet and have only failed to score once in a 0-0 draw and i mustered 4 shots all game none of which were on target.

Im sorry but then you are clearly a minority.

I actually don't think that I am. Before 8.0.2 it was an issue. I'll give you that but 8.0.2 has gone along way to fixing it. Like I said, it still occurs and maybe its abit more than real life but I honestly do not think this is an issue in 0.2.

And as explained above, during our testing we switched long shots to rarely deliberately to discount them in the SOT numbers.

That logic does not work. Long shots will still happen even if you set them to rare. Plus when I say, shots that aren't of quality, it doesn't just refer to long shots. It refers to tight angles, shooting through players, shooting while being marked very closely. To get proper testing you need to look at each chance, not just expect them to dissapear because you put long shots to rarely.

I think that we need to see your testing before I will agree with you anyway

If you have the evidence in your testing (quality testing) then I'll be happy to change my viewpoint and I'm sure SI would be very interested in the results.

I agree with you r/e team talks, and hope it gets some sorting for 09.

They're kind of like tactics right now in that you can change a few things and get results, but it is incredibly difficult to determine the cause of the results. Its nice to have this ambiguity akin to real management, but I think its gone too far. The 2-0 problem is serious. The scoreline is already going to create a problem for your team without having to also have your options limited to saying the wrong thing or saying nothing (also the wrong thing). Team talks are an opportunity for a good manager to nudge and push the focus of the players away from their predispositions, not to reinforce their apathy, prop up their false conclusions, etc.. No manager in the world is going to go in at 2-0 and say "Good job guys. Yep. Thats all I have to say!"

I have no complaints about opposition goalkeepers, but team talks are a total joke, especially in the 2-0 or 3-1 up situation. Saying nothing is an option obviously, but in my experience it is just as volatile as any other option when it comes to its effects.