Match Engine: Are mistakes too common?

What about when a long ball is going to the opposition's strikers or wingers and your whole defensive line moves in anticipation,then when one of your defenders heads the ball slightly away from danger,an opposition player picks it up and makes a dazzling run and scores,or makes a great play for someone to score.

Also imagine a situation where an AMC is having the ball outside of your box,and you have 4 defenders marking one striker.One DC moves to close down the AMC while the others don't cover the now loose AMC.Simple pass to striker and easy goal,just like training.This might have to do more with the game being somewhat flawed than the original post,though.The players keep doing these mistakes at world class too,btw.

I was just wondering ..

Do "mistakes" make the match day less enjoyable?

I was thinking about this when one of my defenders got something like "X does brilliantly to hack the ball off the line".. "He saved a certain goal there!"

The ball gets out of the eighteen, where it was collected by a midfielder, who volleyed home from twenty yards out. "Trademark strike from Y! No keeper in the world would have stopped that!" ..

Followed by ... "X will have to take the blame for his poor clearance."

That felt a bit harsh to me. Really? He saved a certain goal .. how is he at fault for the subsequent one?

And that got me thinking:

I enjoy football for those moments of brilliance, for those absolutely magical moments where an attacker does the unexpected and makes a goal ..

Do the prevalence of "mistakes" in the game diminish those moments of brilliance?

In the situation described above, I'd have rather seen both players lauded for their efforts: it was great defending and great attacking, in my opinion.

It seemed really off to have the defender dropped to a five for his "mistake" .. but more than that, it seems to diminish the goal scored by Y.

When my players score, I don't tend to enjoy the goal as much if its described as a mistake by one of the opposition players - in this example, I don't think I'd have enjoyed Y's goal quite as much were I his manager.

So, I was wondering, should we reduce the incidence of "mistakes" as recognized by the game?

The poor clearance seems to be the most common one, in my opinion.

I'm not saying do away with them at all: if my guy plays a suicidal backpass, or gifts the ball straight to the opposition, I want that called out and I like that his rating suffers.

I just worry that it happens too often.

. .

On the flip side, there are a few additional mistakes I'd want to see recognized:

The last man goes to play the ball. His first touch is poor (and gets mis-commentaried as "Z brings the ball forward"). A striker grabs the loose ball, skips past him, and scores. We get "Z dallied on the ball too long and was punished for it."

I'd like to see that one switched to "Z's poor first touch gave the ball away far too cheaply".

Another one which isn't recognized is the mental mistake of not marking somebody. In particular, I'll often see a DC marking an ST at the eighteen, and an AMC has the ball about ten yards out, and the DC closes him down. The AMC plays a simple pass to the now-unmarked ST, who has an easy finish. I'd like to see that called out as a mental mistake by the DC .. even if its the fact that I have him on "Closing Down" of 15 that was the original problem.

If the keeper goes walkabout, well off his line, he really ought to be faulted *for that* if the opposition take advantage, not for the fact that he gave the ball away .. its the mental mistake that is the root of his problem, not the technical mistake later.

. .

There might also be managerial mistakes:

If I've got all ten outfield players set to some form of going forward on a corner, and the opposition keeps a striker up top .. that ought to get called out: "What a mistake! Nobody stayed back to mark Z .. he was left with the easiest of chances."

The usual high standard of post from you Amaroq. I agree whole heartedly. Often "mistakes" which aren't really mistakes are given as mistakes when they simply aren't- poor clearances in paticular.

Agreed,but one other thing I'd like to add about mistakes is the frequency that some types are made.For example when a defender passes along a flat line across a pitch,they are intercepted far too often for my liking(considering Prem standards at least),and also it may just be the way i look at it from a 2d engine but quite often players boot a ball out of play for a throw in close to the box when it would not have been too difficult to kick it further up the pitch(as in they seem to kick it sideways rather than straight up the pitch,or else kick straight out when not under pressure)

I again, agree with you here. There's not much else I can say really as you've already spoke of all the key points in this area.

I agree that in the game everything is someone's mistake. Too pessimistic, must be the British climate.

Mistakes are killing the game because they're the same at any level (stupid backpass for instance). I think unless the module cannot be done properly, maybe it shouldn't be added then?

IMO No- this area is much improved upon over FM07.

This is particularly noticable as you get better players, whereas in FM07 "world class" players would make far too many unforced errors.

I'm a little bit with Amaroq and a little bit with George Graham on this. I've definitely noticed an improvement as my players have gotten better (passing, technique, decisions etc.).

The only one I hate is the ones where a defending player heads the ball back in the direction a cross came from when a cross comes from the side of the box, and it lands in the box at the foot of a striker. Defies physics as far as I'm concerned and I cannot remember ever seeing a real life defender do it.

originally posted by Amaroq:-

The last man goes to play the ball. His first touch is poor (and gets mis-commentaried as "Z brings the ball forward"). A striker grabs the loose ball, skips past him, and scores. We get "Z dallied on the ball too long and was punished for it."

I'd like to see that one switched to "Z's poor first touch gave the ball away far too cheaply".

Definitely. When I saw that in 'commentary only' mode without realising what's happening in the 2D it annoyed the crap out of me . My player just had the ball. What the hell happened?!?!

Agreed isuckatfm, defenders head the ball behind from corners far to much. Ive had it when the opposition have had five or six consecutive corners from the ball being headed behind

Agreed isuckatfm, defenders head the ball behind from corners far to much. Ive had it when the opposition have had five or six consecutive corners from the ball being headed behind

Agree- this reminds me the way players run the ball out too easily, Ive seen Sunday league players with a better first touch than this. especially annoying when players could just leave it and it would be a goalkick.

Its very un-natural and smacks of just creating corners for want of a more natural and realistic means of doing so.

What sums up the match engine (or at least the 2D representation of it) for me is that, for every ten goals I score, only one or two will have me thinking "that was a great goal, I couldn't have stopped that". The other eight or nine come from blatant errors and poor marking, usually poor decisions further up the pitch and numerous bad defensive clearances.

If I concede a goal, I know it's usually because I have something wrong tactically, but I can understand why people, including myself, constantly feel cheated when the goal comes through a stupid piece of play.

What sums up the match engine (or at least the 2D representation of it) for me is that, for every ten goals I score, only one or two will have me thinking "that was a great goal, I couldn't have stopped that". The other eight or nine come from blatant errors and poor marking, usually poor decisions further up the pitch and numerous bad defensive clearances.

If I concede a goal, I know it's usually because I have something wrong tactically, but I can understand why people, including myself, constantly feel cheated when the goal comes through a stupid piece of play.

That's seems about right to me...

That's seems about right to me...

Well, how many times can fullbacks do that stupid sideways backpass that gets intercepted before it reaches the keeper?

And the games of pinball as your defenders clear it 10 yards to an opponent, ball comes back in, defender clears it 10 yards to opponent, ball comes back in etc.

Infuriating to say the least.

You wasn't specific in your previous post. Watch a game of football, and look at the build up for goals. You'll notice that a lot of goals are scored through a defensive mistake - whether it's a poor clearance, poor tackle, bad positioning or just losing the ball in a dangerous place. Rarely are goals scored specifically through the sheer quality of the attacking play.

I think it depends what you are attributing to the "match engine". Unless I am mistaken the initial comments all refer to either the commentary or the report on the match - these will both just be taken from whatever triggers appear during the game so I guess some of those triggers should maybe not flag up something as a mistake, although in my opinion the player X getting lauded for his stopping a goal one minute, but then getting the blame for the subsequent goal is fair enough - he got his credit, but then it turned out he had cleared the ball straight to an opposition player who promptly scored. Sure it may have been a stunning strike, but if you give the ball to a player capable of such strikers in that position then it is a mistake, albeit maybe an unavoidable one.

The other point about the rating of a player dropping to '5' is certainly one I agree with in general - I don't think much of the current match rating system. I don't know what has changed since previous versions, but I almost never get players finish with a 10 now apart from in pre-season friendlies - even my Hibernian playmaker who netted all 4 goals away to Celtic only got a '9'! At the other end of the spectrum players in certain positions (most notably DMCs and fullbacks/wingbacks) seem to struggle to get good ratings in my experience even when I am perfectly happy with the job they have done, whilst wingers often get good ratings even though I never see them put a successful cross in the whole game

I think you need to differentiate between the match engine and the 2d visualization we see.

It can be annoying at times but you have to remember the 2d engine does not decide the outcome of a match, it merely attempts to interpret the actual match engine on screen. Although it can be 'scream at the computer annoying' when your little dot does something ridiculous, the 2d representation is not to blame, it's just making a poor attempt at visualizing something the match engine decided.

You wasn't specific in your previous post. Watch a game of football, and look at the build up for goals. You'll notice that a lot of goals are scored through a defensive mistake - whether it's a poor clearance, poor tackle, bad positioning or just losing the ball in a dangerous place. Rarely are goals scored specifically through the sheer quality of the attacking play.

I'm not talking about the more subtle things, and I agree you can pinpoint most goals IRL back to something erroneous. I'm talking bizarre things that constantly lead to goals, like clearances that go five or six yards at the most, attempted passes that make no sense and players running completely to the wrong spots on the pitch. It's consistently fundamental things at fault that should be taught to a player from a young age.

This thread too belongs on page 1, not page 34

Mistakes are just as common in real life, but 90% of mistakes in this game result in a goal, which is not quite real life (in most cases, it ends up with a corner or close shave or something).

Match engine needs to be fixed or I won't be purchasing FM2009...

Thanks for the uppage, NepentheZ.

Mistakes are just as common in real life, but 90% of mistakes in this game result in a goal, which is not quite real life (in most cases, it ends up with a corner or close shave or something).

I'm not so sure - if you watch a match on Extended, you'll see mistakes which don't lead to a goal, but do lead to a close shave .. in fact, from my experience, that's more common than mistakes that lead to a goal. (I suspect that "botching" a team-talk leads to a highly increased chance of mistakes, btw.)

However, even so, and defining this specifically as "Mistakes which lead to a goal and media criticism of the player after the match", I'm not sure I agree that they happen as often IRL. I feel like they happen very often in the game, either for me or against me, and often for things (like the example in the OP) that feel a bit "unjust" to me: in other words, I think the game is a bit harsh on its players in this regard.

My point is, from that, that I think that reduces my enjoyment of match day when compared with, say, FM'05 - I'd rather imagine most goals as being the product of a moment of attacking inspiration .. and when the game explicitly calls out a mistake, it increases my frustration at conceding or reduces the thrill of having scored. (For me!)

I think the perception of "too many mistakes" falls to the fact that we watch so many games in such a small truncated bit of time. You can see 5-6-7 games in an hour (maybe more). As for the same mistakes, consider Newcastle when they had the Chuckle Brothers as centre halves (otherwise known as Bramble and Boumsoung) - same mistakes, lack of concentration and generous goals virtually every week. Until someone came along to change it.

Perhaps a good team talk would have helped. ;-)

Nahh... I don't think any team-talk would have helped Boumsong.

The other incident that seems to get covered in the "Poor Clearance" category in a way that I think is unjust is a tackle.

Player A is in a dangerous spot near the area. Defender D makes a tackle. One of A's teammates collects the loose ball, crosses into the box, and it is headed home for a goal.

D gets dinged for a "Poor Clearance" .. in my imagination, he's slid through A and knocked the ball away uncontrolled .. how is he "at fault" for the goal?

I guess I have a lower expectation that defenders' clearances will always be perfect .. maybe that stems from playing in lower divisions? Where the players (both mine and the AI's) are being held accountable to an international-quality standard?

As for the same mistakes, consider Newcastle when they had the Chuckle Brothers as centre halves (otherwise known as Bramble and Boumsoung)

The Chuckle Brothers LOL