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If it's any consolation, the change to the T&Cs, probably isn't valid in the UK courts anyway.

The change involved a clause preventing certain types of legal action being taken against Valve. The UK Courts would be highly unlikely to endorse such a limitation of a customer's rights based on a document nobody reads!

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These threads are ridiculous and have been gone over again and again. If you want to play football manager, you have to use steam, if you dont want to use steam, you cant play football manager. That is your choice and due to the success that si have had with steam, I would imagine its here to stay.

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If you bought a hard copy from a store you should not have to agree to Valves new terms. As far I know they only removed you ability to file a class action lawsuit so i dont imagine it will be a big deal but I dont like where this could be headed.

If you bought the game through Steam then you should have to agree.

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Steam is a big pile of crap with zero focus on customer service. Meanwhile the top brass at SI sit in their ivory towers rubbing their hands with glee and sticking 2 fingers up at their customers.

Or use the money to employ extra staff to work on improving the game for its customers as has been stated hundreds of times !

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I'm unable to play Football Manager because of Steam again. Their support team is absolutely useless. I won't be buying 13 if it's Steam only. It really is a horrible piece of software. I can understand it's usefulness to games who have a lot of games, it's connects them and keeps them updated like a console does. But when you've only got one game on your laptop and don't play online, it really does hamper the experience. I really do hate it with a passion now, it prevents you playing games far too much.

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Some of you here don't know what you are talking about. If FM is the only game you play you can set it up so it is an icon to launch on your desktop and you can set Steam to offline mode meaning you barely notice Steam at all. Plus those arguing that you shouldn't need Steam should have read the part of the cover that states you need a Steam account to activate. Besides having FM on Steam stopped the game from being leaked at RTM stage and was more difficult to pirate, resulting in a sales increase and new jobs at SI to make FM better. If you don't want to be a part of it, then I doubt we will miss you. No point making a fuss about it on here though.

Regarding the ECJ statement, you still only own a licence for the game, not the game itself. The recent ruling is in regards to being able to sell that licence you own. However it is likely that software companies can still disallow the transfer of such licences, so although you can sell it to someone else you would need to be able to transfer it too, and this is not possible with Steam if you purchase the game for yourself.

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If FM is the only game you play you can set it up so it is an icon to launch on your desktop and you can set Steam to offline mode meaning you barely notice Steam at all.

This isn't quite true as Steam will periodically go online. If it realises there is an update either to FM or to the Steam client, you won't be able to play until the update is installed.

I don't really see why this is causing a fuss- what is the massively objectionable change to the T&Cs?

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This isn't quite true as Steam will periodically go online. If it realises there is an update either to FM or to the Steam client, you won't be able to play until the update is installed.

I don't really see why this is causing a fuss- what is the massively objectionable change to the T&Cs?

Valve alters Steam T&Cs to counter lawsuit threat

by Ben Parfitt

about 13 hours ago

inShare

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An alteration has been added the Steam’s terms and conditions that Valve hopes will help combat the threat of consumer lawsuits.

Sony introduced a similar change to its PlayStation Network back in September (in the wake of 2011’s PSN security outage) and was slaughtered by the internet games collective.

It will be interesting to see if fan-favourite Valve is subjected to anywhere near the same level of vitriol.

"It's clear to us that in some situations, class actions have real benefits to customers,” a Valve statement issued to Kotaku says. “In far too many cases however, class actions don't provide any real benefit to users and instead impose unnecessary expense and delay, and are often designed to benefit the class action lawyers who craft and litigate these claims.

"Class actions like these do not benefit us or our communities. We think this new dispute resolution process is faster and better for you and Valve while avoiding unnecessary costs, and that it will therefore benefit the community as a whole."

It’s hard to deny that the vast bulk of consumer litigation culture if hot hair and opportunistic greed. But actively eroding consumer rights is a dangerous business and risks turning a customer base away from you.

thats the article, below is the new section i believe:

12. DISPUTE RESOLUTION/BINDING ARBITRATION/CLASS ACTION WAIVER.

Most user concerns can be resolved by use of our Steam support site at https://support.steampowered.com/. If we are unable to resolve your concerns and a dispute remains between you and Valve, this Section explains how we agree to resolve it.

YOU AND VALVE AGREE TO RESOLVE ALL DISPUTES AND CLAIMS BETWEEN US IN INDIVIDUAL BINDING ARBITRATION. THAT INCLUDES, BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO, ANY CLAIMS ARISING OUT OF OR RELATING TO: (i) ANY ASPECT OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN US; (ii) THIS AGREEMENT; OR (iii) YOUR USE OF STEAM, YOUR ACCOUNT OR THE SOFTWARE. IT APPLIES REGARDLESS OF WHETHER SUCH CLAIMS ARE BASED IN CONTRACT, TORT, STATUTE, FRAUD, UNFAIR COMPETITION, MISREPRESENTATION OR ANY OTHER LEGAL THEORY.

However, this Section does not apply to the following types of claims or disputes, which you or Valve may bring in any court with jurisdiction: (i) claims of infringement or other misuse of intellectual property rights, including such claims seeking injunctive relief; and (ii) claims related to or arising from any alleged unauthorized use, piracy or theft.

This Section does not prevent you from bringing your dispute to the attention of any federal, state, or local government agencies that can, if the law allows, seek relief from us for you.

An arbitration is a proceeding before a neutral arbitrator, instead of before a judge or jury. Arbitration is less formal than a lawsuit in court, and provides more limited discovery. It follows different rules than court proceedings, and is subject to very limited review by courts. The arbitrator will issue a written decision and provide a statement of reasons if requested by either party. YOU UNDERSTAND THAT YOU AND VALVE ARE GIVING UP THE RIGHT TO SUE IN COURT AND TO HAVE A TRIAL BEFORE A JUDGE OR JURY.

You and Valve agree to make reasonable, good faith efforts to informally resolve any dispute before initiating arbitration. A party who intends to seek arbitration must first send the other a written notice that describes the nature and basis of the claim or dispute and sets forth the relief sought. If you and Valve do not reach an agreement to resolve that claim or dispute within 30 days after the notice is received, you or Valve may commence an arbitration. Written notice to Valve must be sent via postal mail to: ATTN: Arbitration Notice, Valve Corporation, P.O. Box 1688, Bellevue, WA 98004.

The Federal Arbitration Act applies to this Section. The arbitration will be governed by the Commercial Arbitration Rules of the American Arbitration Association (“AAA”) and, where applicable, the AAA's Supplementary Procedures for Consumer Related Disputes, as modified by this Agreement, both of which are available at http://www.adr.org. The arbitrator is bound by the terms of this Agreement.

The AAA will administer the arbitration. It may be conducted through the submission of documents, by phone, or in person in the county where you live or at another mutually agreed location.

If you seek $10,000 or less, Valve agrees to reimburse your filing fee and your share of the arbitration costs, including your share of arbitrator compensation, at the conclusion of the proceeding, unless the arbitrator determines your claims are frivolous or costs are unreasonable as determined by the arbitrator. Valve agrees not to seek its attorneys' fees or costs in arbitration unless the arbitrator determines your claims are frivolous or costs are unreasonable as determined by the arbitrator. If you seek more than $10,000, the arbitration costs, including arbitrator compensation, will be split between you and Valve according to the AAA Commercial Arbitration Rules and the AAA's Supplementary Procedures for Consumer Related Disputes, if applicable.

YOU AND VALVE AGREE NOT TO BRING OR PARTICIPATE IN A CLASS OR REPRESENTATIVE ACTION, PRIVATE ATTORNEY GENERAL ACTION OR COLLECTIVE ARBITRATION, EVEN IF AAA's PROCEDURES OR RULES WOULD OTHERWISE ALLOW ONE. THE ARBITRATOR MAY AWARD RELIEF ONLY IN FAVOR OF THE INDIVIDUAL PARTY SEEKING RELIEF AND ONLY TO THE EXTENT OF THAT PARTY'S INDIVIDUAL CLAIM. You and Valve also agree not to seek to combine any action or arbitration with any other action or arbitration without the consent of all parties to this Agreement and all other actions or arbitrations.

If the agreement in this Section not to bring or participate in a class or representative action, private attorney general action or collective arbitration should be found illegal or unenforceable, you and Valve agree that it shall not be severable, that this entire Section shall be unenforceable and any claim or dispute would be resolved in court and not in collective arbitration.

Notwithstanding this Section, you have the right to litigate any dispute in small claims court, if all the requirements of the small claims court, including any limitations on jurisdiction and the amount at issue in the dispute, are satisfied.

This Section 12 shall apply to the maximum extent permitted by applicable law. If the laws of your jurisdiction prohibit the application of some or all of the provisions of this Section notwithstanding Section 11 (Applicable Law/Jurisdiction), such provisions will not apply to you.

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Thanks themadsheep, I'm surprised that's legal. Basically "we can't sue each other, except for these things which we like to sue for".

I'm not planning on suing Valve any time soon though, and I imagine in any situation I did want to that the T&Cs would somehow be null and void.

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Steam is a big pile of crap with zero focus on customer service. Meanwhile the top brass at SI sit in their ivory towers rubbing their hands with glee and sticking 2 fingers up at their customers.

That's a completely unfounded statement, we have towers made of Gold not ivory.

Seriously though, as everyone has said in this thread the use of Steam has allowed us to make sure the game was not pirated before release and that the pirates are right now not playing the latest version of FM12 available. If you look in our support forums we try to get every single user up and running if we can. We have great respect for our community and all we ask in return is respect back. Statements like yours aren't constructive or useful on these forums, it just comes across as abusive.

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Steam is a phenomenal piece of software, if you take exception to using it then either grow up or don't play FM. There isn't a single legitimate reason to dislike it.

That's just as silly a statement as the extreme haters on the other end of the argument.

There are strengths and weaknesses to platforms like Steam, and there are strengths and weaknesses to Steam specifically. From SI's perspective, the benefits of using it outweigh the drawbacks of it, so it makes business sense to carry on using it.

From an end-user perspective, you're free to like it or dislike it. If you want to play FM, you have to use it. If you dislike Steam enough, then you won't play FM. Personally, I am very much in the "tinfoil hat" brigade that thinks Steam and other platforms like it are a very dangerous direction for the industry to be headed, especially from a consumer's perspective. But the situation and software is neither "phenomenal" nor is it "a complete joke". Let's use realistic terms here.

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That's just as silly a statement as the extreme haters on the other end of the argument.

There are strengths and weaknesses to platforms like Steam, and there are strengths and weaknesses to Steam specifically. From SI's perspective, the benefits of using it outweigh the drawbacks of it, so it makes business sense to carry on using it.

From an end-user perspective, you're free to like it or dislike it. If you want to play FM, you have to use it. If you dislike Steam enough, then you won't play FM. Personally, I am very much in the "tinfoil hat" brigade that thinks Steam and other platforms like it are a very dangerous direction for the industry to be headed, especially from a consumer's perspective. But the situation and software is neither "phenomenal" nor is it "a complete joke". Let's use realistic terms here.

As above........

No one should be required to have 3rd party software installed to run a game. Any game. If you buy something through steam that is your choice. If you buy something else where you should not be required to use it or be required to sign another ToU other then the software I have paid money for. AFAIK I know fm have put in hooks that have effected cracked versions of the game for at least 5 years.

I used to quite active around here and only re-activated my account to agree with the above post.

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Just to add 2c.

My biggest gripe, last night I wanted a game 'Could not connect to steam' took me 25 minutes to play a game I own?

For one of the mods to say all we own is a licence is ridiculous, I own a disk full of software, which I have installed on my computer. I don't log in remotely to play the game or anything like that, I do exactly the same as I did before steam.

I just think it is unfair to force this on to people, I know you say its for DRM etc, but there are other ways, not every game runs through steam and I am sure they have just as much, more than likely alot more, people trying to pirate it. As a consumer it feels like Stam was the easy answer and I am sure the best financially, which I know as you are running a business is very important. Its a fine line between making a profit and keeping some very loyal fans happy, I think this has crossed it.

I am normally one of the people sticking up for the game when everyone says how bad it is, but FM11 in my eyes was quite poor as I think across the board alot agreed with, however, most of us still went out and got 12 even though we were forced to get steam. But, again me personally, have found myself several times complaining to myself sitting at my pc about steam not working or waiting for steam to update, I really do not see me getting 13 or any others until its gone.

I agree with the feeling that if I buy a game on a disk I should not have to run through another program to play it. It states nowhere on the box etc before I buy it that I need to, it just says steam is required to activate it not that I need it constantly running to play.

But unfortunately it seems its here to stay, the only real way to stop it isn't to whinge and moan on the forums, its to vote with your feet. If sales drop dramatically I am sure Steam will be gone, the down side we need to give up a game we love to be able to do so. A no win really. A shame that SI/SEGA have forced this upon its consumers with no market research that I have seen anyway as you think this board would be where it would have been done.

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This thread is just hilarious. I'm guessing no one actually read the SSA? Just to amuse myself further, I'm going to reply to some.

So do Steam have the right to stop me playing FM if I don't agree to their sub t&c
If you bought a hard copy from a store you should not have to agree to Valves new terms
We've paid for FM, not for Steam. I am convinced they can not withhold our product the way they are doing
it just says steam is required to activate it not that I need it constantly running to pla

It's the same as pretty much every service; don't agree with the T&Cs = no service. And it does state on the retail case "product offered subject to Steam Subscriber Agreement. You must activate this product... and accept the SSA. If you do not agree... return this game unopened to your retailer".

For one of the mods to say all we own is a licence is ridiculous, I own a disk full of software
You don't own the game, you own a copy of the licence to play the game iirc

As a software developer, this is true. You don't own the game, the game is Sport Interactive's/SEGAs intellectual property. You don't own the code. You don't own the copyrighted material licensed to this game. Same with other software & multimedia. Somewhat similar too to items, such as cards, that state "This property belongs to Company X", even though you posses it.

Youre entitled to a refund under UK law if they alter the T&C which means you are worse off.

You're entitled to a refund of £0 as Steam had nothing to do with the transaction. The license to the game was bought from SI/SEGA, not Valve.

I know you say its for DRM etc, but there are other ways

There are other ways, you're right. But they're all worse. Either having the disc present in the drive (what happens when your disc becomes corrupted?) or having to be connected to the internet all the time (if you're connection drops, the games force closes). No names. UbiSoft. Tell me a better alternative to the Steam/Origin way?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But the best thing about Steam is the ability to push patches out. Why should the developers have to put up with hundreds more bug threads because not everyone's up-to-date. And hopefully sometime in the future we'll be able to take advantage of Steam and make network games easier.

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That's a completely unfounded statement, we have towers made of Gold not ivory.

Seriously though, as everyone has said in this thread the use of Steam has allowed us to make sure the game was not pirated before release and that the pirates are right now not playing the latest version of FM12 available. If you look in our support forums we try to get every single user up and running if we can. We have great respect for our community and all we ask in return is respect back. Statements like yours aren't constructive or useful on these forums, it just comes across as abusive.

Fair enough, I will refrain from making comments in such a tone in future.

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That's a completely unfounded statement, we have towers made of Gold not ivory.

Seriously though, as everyone has said in this thread the use of Steam has allowed us to make sure the game was not pirated before release and that the pirates are right now not playing the latest version of FM12 available. If you look in our support forums we try to get every single user up and running if we can. We have great respect for our community and all we ask in return is respect back. Statements like yours aren't constructive or useful on these forums, it just comes across as abusive.

Whilst I can understand the positives of Steam (pirates & patching) it still has negatives. Despite having Steam it is the single, only reason that I haven't purchased FM12 which is the first time ever I haven't bought a SI game.

Having used Steam which I'll happily admit works 99% of the time for large % of users it still has issues with offline mode, they have T&Cs which are arguably illegal under UK law and their customer service is quite frankly poor which is far below the standard that SI set.

I fully understand why SI used Steam for FM12 and why you'll probably continue to use Steam in the foreseeable future but until they can improve the negatives above I would like to suggest a compromise: An initial Steam release and then once the final patch is released another release that is not Steam restricted (Perhaps even download only to keep costs down).

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To read, digest and understand the pages and pages of T&C's that Stream put up on my screen would have taken hours and hours, or possibly days and days. Why not just hi-light the changes they made? Severe lack of common sense.

All this legal bull to play a football game is frankly ridiculous.

Unfortunately this seems to be the way with every piece of software these days.

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I think the problem that SI have is that a game like FM is one of those rare pieces of software that have fans who only play FM and not other games.

So when you use a platform like Steam, which is geared towards people who play lots of different games, the two situations don't mesh together parituclarly well. The FMers won't really understand or care to learn why Steam is so complex and it is indeed a convoluted way to play the only game that you own.

Where Steam excels is for those that play lots of games, that like to have them all managed by one piece of software that can keep save files through hardware upgrades / relocation.

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I've kept Steam in offline mode (except when patching) and I've not had any issues.

Someone on these forums a while back suggested that SI recommend keeping Steam in offline mode to avoid these problems, which sounds like a good idea as a lot of FM players (myself included) have no need for Steam apart from playing FM.

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Tell me a better alternative to the Steam/Origin way?

The activation used for FM09.

You had a choice:

Digitally download the game

Activate through Steam

Activate via the internet (one time only connection)

Activate via the phone

Unfortunately there was a DDoS attack on Soft Anchor (the company running the internet activation) the day the game was released, so some people had to wait a couple of days to play. Also, it was hard to tell the difference between some characters in the code (e.g. 0 and O). Massive storm of hate directed at SI as a result, so they stopped using it and the company went out of business. In comparison, the fury about compulsory use of Steam is practically jubilant.

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YOU AND VALVE AGREE NOT TO BRING OR PARTICIPATE IN A CLASS OR REPRESENTATIVE ACTION, PRIVATE ATTORNEY GENERAL ACTION OR COLLECTIVE ARBITRATION, EVEN IF AAA's PROCEDURES OR RULES WOULD OTHERWISE ALLOW ONE. THE ARBITRATOR MAY AWARD RELIEF ONLY IN FAVOR OF THE INDIVIDUAL PARTY SEEKING RELIEF AND ONLY TO THE EXTENT OF THAT PARTY'S INDIVIDUAL CLAIM. You and Valve also agree not to seek to combine any action or arbitration with any other action or arbitration without the consent of all parties to this Agreement and all other actions or arbitrations.

i'm sure that would be considered an Unfair Clause in a contract and wouldn't be enforceble - in the uk, at least.

of course, STEAM could just cancel your account and you would lose access to all your games. then it depends on if you would really want to fight that possibility, as to whether you would get your account reinstated or get compensation.

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Interesting to note that Valve have stated that Windows 8 is a catastrophe for Steam (and some gaming in general) http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2407662,00.asp

The real issue with a Steam only option is lack of choice for the consumers who are getting more and more tired of corporate greed and there are other much better and bigger oportunities to tackle piracy which will hit the pirates at the point of origin rather than just make it more difficult to crack the game or an updated version of it.

Add on the fact that you have to be 13 or over to sign up for a Steam account and that their T&C's, if you refuse them, mean you can't play FM12 it really is a poor option for the consumer.

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Valve owner Newell only came out and said that because he's worried that MS will try and close off the Windows platform with their own store and thus take money from Steam. In actual gaming terms Windows 8 will be even better than Windows 7, from a performance stand point.

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Yeah what windows are trying to do is make windows like an Iphone platform where you have to buy anything you want to install through their own store, which would mean things like games on steam would become more expensive as windows would want a cut for anything designed for their platform.

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You should all do what I do. Don't read that kind of stuff, and just click to say I accept it. I want to play the game, and as long as I can do so, I don't care about all the legal stuff. If Steam being involved means pirated copies are harder to come by, I'm happy to be using Steam to play FM12.

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Why wouldn't you just accept the T&C's? I'm baffled.

Range of reasons I guess, mainly for me it is the fact that I'm not agreeing with them and one of the terms state if you break the T&C's then your membership/account can be deleted.

So lets say an under 13 year old opens an account, just as an example, thats against the T&C's and if they found out they would have the option of deleting the account and that person would lose all their games on Steam.

A range of other examples also mean that agreeing to T&C's can be problematic, ask yourself this more important question.......why do companies ask you to tick to say you have read, understand, and agree to them?!!!!!

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Its interesting to note what impact steam has actually had in terms of sales?

Its often argued in many areas of piracy that the pirates aren't "true" consumers, and therefore without pirating wouldn't purchase the item at all. Obviously the developers don't see it this way and see any pirate as a lost sale, however it would be interesting to look at incremental sales figures over a 5 years and see if the introduction of steam has significantly raised sales with pirates being forced to purchase the game, or if its continued on the same trends.

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