Dan_rm Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Why are there no good center backs around? I was just looking through the squads and there's no genuinely brilliant players in that position. Is this going to be the case because most teams place added importance on defensive midfielders now? Poland: None Greece: None Russia: None Czech Republic: None Holland: Heitinga and a 32 year old Mathijsen - average Denmark: Kjaer and Agger - average Germany: Hummels, Howedes, Badstuber, Mertesacker, and Boateng - probably the strongest set in the tournament, but not overly convincing. I understand that Hummels has been great for BVB, but might not be first choice? I don't know too much about Howedes. Badstuber has been good whenever I've seen him and I think will start. Not sure how fit Mertesacker is, but has a million caps and Low is clearly a fan. Boateng is more likely to play full back. Portugal: Pepe and Bruno Alves - Pepe is capable of spontaneously combusting at any time, Alves doesn't really stand out. Spain: Pique and Sergio Ramos - Puyol is obviously a huge miss and still a brilliant player. Pique's not been at his best lately. Ramos is a spaz and should never play center back, especially not for Spain. Raul Albiol and Javi Martinez as back up, the former is immensely bad, the latter is good but won't play. Italy: Chiellini, Barzagli and Bonucci - Chiellini's clearly the standout player. Barzagli's injured so I'm assuming Bonucci will step in. Although I've read Prandelli could attempt to play 3 at the back, with De Rossi there (he played a bit in defence for Roma this season). Ireland: None Croatia: I guess Lovren would have been their best, but he's injured. Ukraine: None. Sweden: None. England: Don't really need to discuss this again. France: Koscielny, Rami, and Mexes. Rami seems to be the only one that will definitely start. Mexes is a bit rubbish now, but Koscielny only has three caps. Even outside of this I can't really think of many. Vidic? Thiago Silva? Kompany? It's a bit of a dull topic but it was only a few years ago when you would have had Stam, Nesta, Cannavaro, Thuram, etc playing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
football_master_94 Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 The best CBs in the world (Vidić, Silva and Kompany) aren't in the tournament, obviously, but there still are good CBs out there - imo the likes of Chiellini (although he played quite a bit at LB this season for Juve), Agger, Koscielny and Hummels have had good seasons but how that transpires to their NTs may be a different issue all togerther (for example, Koscielny probably won't even start for France and Hummels has been the best German CB for a while now but hasn't looked like at NT level). Didn't Ramos start off as a CB at Sevilla (ie. his natural position) before becoming a RB? Whilst he's not that convincing at CB, at times, I still think he's quite good there as he's an incredible header of the ball and is a threat from set pieces - and provides good defending from set plays due to his aerial ability- and he's quicker than your typical CB which always helps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazzaj Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Why are there no good center backs around? I was just looking through the squads and there's no genuinely brilliant players in that position. Is this going to be the case because most teams place added importance on defensive midfielders now?Russia: None Without being brilliant, Ingashevitch and V. Berezutskiy have been fixtures both for Russia and CSKA for years and have been consistently among their respective sides' better performers. ... Ireland: None Surely Richard Dunne deserves a mention? Virtually played Russia on his own in Moscow, and has conceded just four goals while playing for Ireland in 22 and a half hours, including a run of 8 consecutive clean sheets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridgekings Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 john george terry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astafjevs Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I don't think you do Chiellini justice. He's great, he just hasn't had the constant exposure because he's not in the Champions League. I think he's pretty close to that elite group (Thiago Silva, Piqué, Vidic). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGartz Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 What about Vermaelen, he a beast! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
el sid Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmr Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I said this a few months ago when people were wondering why strikers seem to be scoring 30+ goals way more regularly nowadays, and I said it's because there just aren't many top top centre backs anymore. Look at who you had in the 90's. Baresi, Costacurta, Sammer, Kohler, Desailly and Lebouef, Stam, de Boer, Blanc, Hiero and Nadal, Nesta, Cannavaro, and that's just the ones off the top of my head. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaceCrusher Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I think something is wrong when Koscielny is mentioned in the same mould as the top centre-backs. He's a good player and good as a "second" CB in a partnership, but he's not a top class one, like Vidic, Piqué, Hummels, Pepe, Chiellini etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJ234 Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Have you watched Pique play this season? Pepe is nuts and thus isn't top class Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJ234 Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Koscielny has been top class this season. Should certainly start for France Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmr Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Yeah but compared to past France players he's nothing special. That's the point Dan is making. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanNUFC Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Hope this means we'll see lots of goals in this tournament. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Neil Brock Posted June 6, 2012 Administrators Share Posted June 6, 2012 There's a bit too much of a trend to take CB's who have the potential to be amazing and push them into different positions. Note Smalling/Jones have been pushed into RB (In Jones' case even CM) and didn't Rodwell start out as a CB (or was that just in FM)? Even abroad, Ramos now spends most of his time at RB rather than his original position. These may well be the exceptions rather than the rule but even so it has happened a few times. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Philip Rolfe Posted June 6, 2012 Administrators Share Posted June 6, 2012 If we're asking why, I think it's a bit to do with the clamour for attacking football and a bit to do with how teams can most effectively respond to that. It's easier to defend as a team and be greater as a sum of parts than as individuals. That in turn leads to a perception that the team has been successful because of that and not because a certain player is world class, and so we don't see them in that light, whereas in a more defensively-inclined era we might very well perceive someone part of such a team to be just that. There's also an argument that the very top end teams are so far ahead of 80% or so of most teams that they can get away without a 'proper' defender and instead use some form of defensive midfielder or versatile sort at the back and get away with it most of the time, which means they don't need to find or develop their own world-class centre-back. When you come up against another top team you're either forced into finding a way to get by as a team (see Chelsea under Di Matteo) or you just get destroyed; we've seen some stupidly high scores in some of the biggest club games in the last two seasons because of this. Or maybe it's just generational and we're waiting on a group of younger defenders to step up and put themselves on a par with the legendary centre-backs who are retiring etc. Definitely agree that there's fewer elite defenders around than perhaps at any time in modern football history. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackter Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 So basically it's all Makelele's fault? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ham_aka_stam Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I think you're both kind of there. The best CBs these days aren't destroyers or shepherds of some clueless brutes, they're more all-round players. Defending has become much more a team-game whereas in attack, one player with that thought or trick that others don't, can win games. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Philip Rolfe Posted June 6, 2012 Administrators Share Posted June 6, 2012 It's also a lot easier to be creative in attack and defending has always been a more responsive part of the game. The great defences have either been built on organisation or on some tactical concept which was eventually overcome when managers were given time to work it out. Tactical flexibility in attack has always existed and has always asked questions of defences but the arguably the most defensive era of football came from 1990-2004 (this is a huge debate in itself, it's just my own perception of how teams approached games) when there wasn't much by way of attacking variance around at the upper end of the game (compared to preceding and following eras at least), and in that era you're able to draw the names of some of the best defenders ever. Certainly in the years since you've seen more adaptability and creativity from attacking managers, attacking in numbers from all over the pitch and defences struggling to handle that in any other way than to 'park the bus' as a collective effort. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmr Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Some of the best defenders in the 90's were ball playing, flair defenders though. Baresi and Sammer were as good on the ball as many top class midfielders for example, it wasn't all hard men like Nadal or Stam. I'd say no defenders nowadays are as good at defending as Baresi and Sammer and none are as good on the ball either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Philip Rolfe Posted June 6, 2012 Administrators Share Posted June 6, 2012 Italy was able to produce some of the best defenders of the era because Serie A was genuinely miles ahead of any other league in quality for a good decade or so. No surprise that some of the best came from there or took their game to the next level. Sammer was a midfielder of varying levels of attacking for the best part of a decade before moving into defence at Dortmund. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaitsev Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I think you'll find Heitinga is amazing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmr Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Sammer was a midfielder of varying levels of attacking for the best part of a decade before moving into defence at Dortmund. Indeed, although he bossed it at Euro 96 as a sweeper, outstanding player. I really think Rio was most capable of following someone like that but he just hasn't been allowed to produce those forward runs often enough, such a waste. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Philip Rolfe Posted June 6, 2012 Administrators Share Posted June 6, 2012 It's hard to compare genuinely outstanding footballers who moved back into defence as they got older and someone like Ferdinand, who has a historically unconvential skillset for a central defender but has been perfectly equipped to excel in modern football. Plus, there are more Ferdinands around now than there were Sammers and Matthaus' 15 years ago, so maybe Ferdinand doesn't get the appreciation he would have in another era. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmr Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Possibly, but I do think he's been held back by Fergie's tactics somewhat, I think he could have been a devastating player in the same way Sammer and Baresi were when they came out of defense with the ball. We've seen it in glimpes but he's been far more conservative a defender than I would have liked. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
el sid Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Its alright lads, David Luiz is going to redefine what a central defender is Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPlanet Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UTT Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 There's a bit too much of a trend to take CB's who have the potential to be amazing and push them into different positions. Note Smalling/Jones have been pushed into RB (In Jones' case even CM) and didn't Rodwell start out as a CB (or was that just in FM)? Even abroad, Ramos now spends most of his time at RB rather than his original position. These may well be the exceptions rather than the rule but even so it has happened a few times. Phil Jones is rightly pushed away from CB, as was Ramos. Both of them have flaws that at the top level as a centre back are very exploitable Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micado Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I think you'll find Heitinga is amazing.Agreed, find it strange that no top team has tried to buy him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weide Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Sweden: None. How dare you ignore the greatness of Olof Mellberg? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_T Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 sergio ramos is the new fernando hierro. there, I said it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaceCrusher Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Pepe is nuts and thus isn't top class Mourinho said, many years before joining Real Madrid, that a great CB must have an "assassin" spirit. I'm sure he likes him. Koscielny may be good but needs someone like Pepe at his side. And it showed in the Champions League, Arsenal defenders aren't good enough for that level. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbert_o154 Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Possibly, but I do think he's been held back by Fergie's tactics somewhat, I think he could have been a devastating player in the same way Sammer and Baresi were when they came out of defense with the ball. We've seen it in glimpes but he's been far more conservative a defender than I would have liked. Didn't Jonathan Wilson write a column about a year ago or so in which he posited that with teams increasingly having only one designated attacker or less, the future pointed towards one central defender plus the return of the Beckenbauer-style libero; mopping up behind the CB when defending, moving into midfield when attacking. So perhaps Ferdinand is just a little ahead of his time with his particular skillset. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powlay Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I said this a few months ago when people were wondering why strikers seem to be scoring 30+ goals way more regularly nowadays, and I said it's because there just aren't many top top centre backs anymore. Look at who you had in the 90's. Baresi, Costacurta, Sammer, Kohler, Desailly and Lebouef, Stam, de Boer, Blanc, Hiero and Nadal, Nesta, Cannavaro, and that's just the ones off the top of my head. Im sorry what? Costacurta and LeBouef in top centre backs? Both were talented individuals but neither were really in the top group of uber defenders. Nadal just a thug as well Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cms186 Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Mourinho said, many years before joining Real Madrid, that a great CB must have an "assassin" spirit. I'm sure he likes him.Koscielny may be good but needs someone like Pepe at his side. And it showed in the Champions League, Arsenal defenders aren't good enough for that level. pepe doesnt have an assassins apirit, he has the spirit of a mental patient that was abused as a child Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaceCrusher Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 pepe doesnt have an assassins apirit, he has the spirit of a mental patient that was abused as a child He lost his nerves 3 or 4 times in his career, yes. But he's not a consistently violent player like, say, Materazzi or Simeone were. People saying Pepe is nuts surely are not used to watch Bruno Alves play. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ham_aka_stam Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Phil Jones is rightly pushed away from CB, as was Ramos. Both of them have flaws that at the top level as a centre back are very exploitable Agree with this. Don't know much about Ramos, but there's a very good reason Jones has been played in MF and at RB. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Philip Rolfe Posted June 7, 2012 Administrators Share Posted June 7, 2012 Jones will end up at centre back eventually. Right now he's defensively a little naive and you want to take full advantage of his buccaneering ways but give it 2/3 years, maybe a little longer since he is still young and inexperienced, and he'll be a centre back for a decade and more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
noikeee Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 He lost his nerves 3 or 4 times in his career, yes. But he's not a consistently violent player like, say, Materazzi or Simeone were.People saying Pepe is nuts surely are not used to watch Bruno Alves play. He is a consistently violent player, some of the tackles he does for Real are insane. With Pepe-Alves we're going to have the most brutal centre-back pairing in the competition and certainly the most brutal pairing I can ever remember playing for our national team. Maybe since 1966 and the guy who injured Pelé in the group stage match? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powlay Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 He lost his nerves 3 or 4 times in his career, yes. But he's not a consistently violent player like, say, Materazzi or Simeone were.People saying Pepe is nuts surely are not used to watch Bruno Alves play. Pepe is a total space cadet, that doesnt mean others are not also. As for losing it 3-4 times in his career? yeah he loses it 3-4 times a season! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaceCrusher Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 He's not worse than most, he just got that reputation after hitting that Getafe(?) player some years ago and it will haunt him for the rest of his career. That is my opinion. He's no Materazzi. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbert_o154 Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 He's not worse than most, he just got that reputation after hitting that Getafe(?) player some years ago and it will haunt him for the rest of his career. Hitting? Try "kicking him repeatedly when he was already down". Even if that was the only thing Pepe's ever done - which it isn't - then that'd already make him far 'worse than most' and deservedly give him the reputation of a right nutjob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
football_master_94 Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 [video=youtube;jKt4IBxD5oo] Add the stamp on Messi, general diving around and theatrics (to the extent where he kicks his teammate Arbeloa Who tells him just to get up) it's clear to see that he's a Class A **** Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
noikeee Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Strange thing is that he wasn't this much of a nutjob when playing for Porto. A little bit wild yes, but not anywhere near as crazy as he is atm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaceCrusher Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Strange thing is that he wasn't this much of a nutjob when playing for Porto. A little bit wild yes, but not anywhere near as crazy as he is atm. He never caused any big problem in Portugal in his 7 years there really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott MUFC Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 no Rio thanks to mr terry and his mouth Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powlay Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 He's not worse than most, he just got that reputation after hitting that Getafe(?) player some years ago and it will haunt him for the rest of his career.That is my opinion. He's no Materazzi. If you think all he did was hit the player then watch the clip, you will see why no one takes your opinion seriously. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niebiescy Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Pepe and Alves may be nutters, but they're both €20m+ players and a pretty solid pairing. Can't think of many better in international football. Talent wise maybe Brazil? I wouldn't say that CBs are worse now than before, just that it's much harder to play there due to the amount of flair players teams are now using at this level and the change to more positive tactics. Also refereeing is now stricter on defenders than in the past which decreases the amount of small things they can get away with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
endtime Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Obviously it's because Piotr Celeban isn't playing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nørbæk Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I thought Agger did well for us last night. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siven Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Sorry did the OP say Agger was average? IMO Agger is the most underrated CB around. Great defensively, has an eye for a pass, can bring the ball out of defense and use it well and has a good shot on him too. Its just a shame hes had a few injuries in the past. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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