Problem with possession - what am I doing wrong?

This never happened to me in previous FM's, but in this one I am really struggling with possession.

I have to say I have never played with this formation I'm using now before, so it's probably related to my inexperience with this formation.

I'm (was) managing Leeds United by the way.

It is 4-1-3-2, balanced. My DMC is an anchor man, I made my fullbacks to make forward runs often. My three midfielders: The one in the middle is Central Midfielder, attack. The two on his left and right are box-to-box midfielders. Both my forwards are Complete Forwards, attack.

The default defensive line was at 8 (so 2 notches to the left from the middle). With the default settings I was averaging only 40% possession. Especially when I play on the road, I was being dominated possession wise, like 70%-30% even sometimes. So I did a few things. Pushed the defence up by 3 notches, increased the closing down of all players by 2 notches, and decreased the creative freedom and mentality of my midfielders and forwards. All these helped, but not a whole lot, I'm still averaging around 45%, although Leeds is one of the better teams in the league, and believe it or not, results got a little worse after these changes (and eventually I finished 11th and got sacked).

I tried to watch some portions of the matches in full length, to see what is happening, and the problem is not that my players give the ball away easily, but it is rather that when the opponent has the ball, they go to the flanks and the opponents three (typically) players start passing the ball around while my fullback and my box-to-box midfielder closer to that flank keep closing down on them, it's like the pig in the middle practice, and it goes on for too long, they keep passing forever like that. So that's how I always end up with a lot less possession than my opponents, I figured.

So, what do I need to do to prevent this?

I have my two fullbacks, the anchor man, and the two box-to-box midfielders on hard tackling. If I don't do this, the situation gets a lot worse. But this way I also always end up with a lot more tackles than my opponents, which means also more fouls and more cards.

The only thing coming to my mind that I haven't tried is to play with narrower width.

Any suggestions?

Are you winning games though? I think possession % isn't a big problem as long as you can win consistently.

It seemed to me that you got it figured out though, the Possesion % isn't because of you keeping losing possesion but because the opponent kept it too long because they have a hard time trying to find an outlet for passing... I'm not sure why that is though if you're using standard tactics (not changing defensive lines etc)... you using 4 roamers (2 BBM + 2 CF) might have something to do with it, as roamers tend to try to do too much so I'd imagine those 4 players clogged up the passing lane too much leaving your opponent very little choice for making passes.

Your pushing up defensive line however opened up the passing lane by giving the opponent better chance at through passes and I'm guessing that's how your team get worse because the fast strikers are more likely to beat your defenders to the ball after the changes .

This is just my guess, but I'm thinking your opponent using something similar to "play out of defense" shout, so all the defenders use the left most slider passing, so they use only short passing (with the occasional through passes if they can spot a defensive hole and with 4 roamers in the middle this is exactly what's going to happen, the defenders trying to move the ball up are going to get trapped by your backs/mids/CF so the only passing outlet for them is to go back to the nearest defender until they can find another player to pass to. Remember you're using 4-1-3-2 which means the middle going to get clogged up and if the AI recognize that (do they? I have no idea) then they'll use short passing defenders with wide distribution as passing through the middle/long pass most likely will get the ball turned over. Most obvious way to counter this is to not use 4 roamers , to help open up the passing lane to encourage your opponent to keep going up

Are you winning games though? I think possession % isn't a big problem as long as you can win consistently.

It seemed to me that you got it figured out though, the Possesion % isn't because of you keeping losing possesion but because the opponent kept it too long because they have a hard time trying to find an outlet for passing... I'm not sure why that is though if you're using standard tactics (not changing defensive lines etc)... you using 4 roamers (2 BBM + 2 CF) might have something to do with it, as roamers tend to try to do too much so I'd imagine those 4 players clogged up the passing lane too much leaving your opponent very little choice for making passes.

Your pushing up defensive line however opened up the passing lane by giving the opponent better chance at through passes and I'm guessing that's how your team get worse because the fast strikers are more likely to beat your defenders to the ball after the changes .

This is just my guess, but I'm thinking your opponent using something similar to "play out of defense" shout, so all the defenders use the left most slider passing, so they use only short passing (with the occasional through passes if they can spot a defensive hole and with 4 roamers in the middle this is exactly what's going to happen, the defenders trying to move the ball up are going to get trapped by your backs/mids/CF so the only passing outlet for them is to go back to the nearest defender until they can find another player to pass to. Remember you're using 4-1-3-2 which means the middle going to get clogged up and if the AI recognize that (do they? I have no idea) then they'll use short passing defenders with wide distribution as passing through the middle/long pass most likely will get the ball turned over. Most obvious way to counter this is to not use 4 roamers , to help open up the passing lane to encourage your opponent to keep going up

Thanks for the feedback.

This is exactly what I think is happening. Like I said, when I watch the match in full length, I see my box-to-box midfielders running around like crazy (which is something I want them to do actually, if they won't help the fullbacks the flanks will be completely exposed, so that's why I'm using two CM's as box-to-box midfielders), and this makes the opponent players pass the ball towards the back, over and over again. They almost never make a risky pass, instead they keep looking for an oppening.

The problem is that it is always 3-4 of them against my 2 (one fullback and one btb midfielder), so they always have an open teammate. If I play with narrower width, do you think maybe my anchorman and one of my stoppers can come to help and I can win the ball faster?

As far as I can see you have two real issues to consider:

A) Do you want to hold onto the ball longer therefore increasing your possession through slower buildup

&

B) Is it a problem allowing the opposition to keep the ball at the back as long as you have an effective defence when they enter your final third.

As far as I can see you have two real issues to consider:

A) Do you want to hold onto the ball longer therefore increasing your possession through slower buildup

&

B) Is it a problem allowing the opposition to keep the ball at the back as long as you have an effective defence when they enter your final third.

The thing annoying me most is that the opponent keeps the ball forever.

If it is a lesser opponent, they create little triangles on the flanks and just keep passing the ball back and forth, without attempting for a cross or a risky ball. They play pig in the middle with my two players, all my other players just stay away and watch (that's why I say maybe playing with narrower width will help), the opponent makes 15-20 back to back succesfull short passes sometimes.

If it is a stronger opponent, they also come from the flanks often, but they play more aggressive/attacking and either one of these happen:

1- They cross the ball often, and my CB's get the ball most of the time, only to kick it away though, so their attack re-starts again, and again, and again...

2- They try to dribble past my fullbacks or btb midfielders, and my players make a succesfull sliding tackle (remember they are set on hard tackling), the ball either rolls out for a throw in, or it rolls towards the midfield, but their defenders or midfielders always get to those balls very quick, while all of my players are just watching, even when they are very close to the ball (I think this is rather a graphical representation shortcoming though). So again, they start rebuilding their attack. As a result, I end up with crazy amount of succesfull tackles, but 40% possession. And if I change to normal tackling, things get worse.

And like I said, this never ever happened to me before in FM, but I never played 4-1-3-2 before, and I never used box to box midfielders before (I wanted to, but I never needed it, with this 4-1-3-2 I feel like I need them, to help my fullbacks).

An interesting statistics is that I have 5 players in the top-10 of tackles per game list in the league, but I have only 1 player in the top-100 (and he is 85th or something) of interception per game list. This is because my opponents almost never try sort of passes that my defenders can intercept. They either play short lateral passes that my players cannot intercept, or they try to dribble past them and they get tackled.

I wonder if my btb midfielders are forcing the opponents to play this way.

Two forwards with an attack duty is not advisable unless you have a player in the AMC position with a support duty.

Two forwards with an attack duty is not advisable unless you have a player in the AMC position with a support duty.

Yes, and I decreased their mentality and creative freedom and now they tend to pass more to each other and to my supporting CM-attack and two btb midfielders. That and a few other changes I've mentioned gained me around 5%. That improved the things in the attacking end. But the major problem is in defending. My players move a lot and close all the gaps (but individually, not as a group, so it is not effective enough to win the balls), but the opponents never lose the ball by making safe short passes all the time, and also winning those lose balls all the time. My players hustle a lot until they make a sliding tackle, and when the ball goes loose, all of them freeze all of a sudden and wait for the opponent to collect the lose ball and re-start their attack. Very annoying to watch.

Are your full backs on tight or loose marking?

The main issue I see is your relatively low defensive line. You want your midfield to pressure the ball but the DL setting of 8 or 11 is keeping the defensive support away from them and basically instructing them to hold a neutral position. Also reducing mentalities in this instance is counter productive - it's telling your players to play safe. Your full backs need to mark tight if you want them to get stuck in in the wide areas.

The way I see it you have two options. 1) Increase DL further, increase mentalities and closing down, set your full backs to mark tight and try to win the ball quickly then play direct to get the ball to your strikers to hold it up and build play from there. Or 2) drop your midfield further back and force the opposition to try and play in your half - then win the ball there, play a slower paced build-up with a view to counter. Requires a link up player though i.e a player 'in the hole'.

I decreased the mentality of the two complete forwards only, not my defensive players, so that when the forwards receive the ball, they will play more with the three midfielders and the fullbacks that push up to support the attack. As I said before, this worked well and gained me a few possession percentage.

My fullbacks are on tight marking.

I think I will try pushing the D-line up by another 1-2 notches, and play with narrower width than the default 10.

"B) Is it a problem allowing the opposition to keep the ball at the back as long as you have an effective defence when they enter your final third. "

I agree with this, as long as those possession doesn't translate into goals I think it's fine, and as long as you can consistently score even with 40% possession then it's a working tactic

"I wonder if my btb midfielders are forcing the opponents to play this way."

I don't believe the game have any way of knowing what role you're playing your players as, I think it has more to do with 3 CM and 1 DM that's clogging up the middle, so they'll tend to focus passing wide if I'm not mistaken

"when the ball goes loose, all of them freeze all of a sudden and wait for the opponent to collect the lose ball and re-start their attack"

That's weird I don't usually have that problem... especially when you have 2 roamers in the mid, you'd think the other BBM would anticipate and collect the loose ball... Maybe it's more the case of your team not familiar with the tactics yet and it will get better as they reach 100% familiarity? Not sure what happened here

I think in the end though there isn't much you can do if the opponent decided to put their defenders on short passing with their backs on defensive mentalities too (at least it seems like it if they always pass back to the CD instead of trying to switch the ball to the other flank) the only thing I can think of is letting them them build until your last third and win the ball back there. Playing narrower might open things up (weirdly it's going to be because one of your BBM will try to keep going wide to compensate for your not having wide mids in defense thus leaving space in the mid, and further down their wingers will also have more space since you pull your backs a little bit inside)

Guys, thanks for all the suggestions.

Before I initiated this thread I got sacked from Leeds, and yesterday after staying unemployed for a few months, I accepted a job offer from a Turkish team battling relegation in Turkish premiere league.

I made several gradual tweaks and to the same tactic I was using at Leeds, and things are slightly better now. These are the things that helped me to increase my possession while playing 4-1-3-2:

1- Defensive line pushed up to 13

2- Width narrowed down to 8

3- Unticked the 'hold up ball' for my anchorman (somehow this had a noticable effect)

4- Put fullbacks on tight marking (I'm not sure of this one though)

After these modifications I'm still averaging 45-48% possession, but I think it is down to:

1- There is not much I can do when some opponents choose to play with very defensive mentality where they keep passing the ball around instead of making an attempt to create a goal position, and with my tactic clogging the middle, I think this is bound to happen every once in a while.

2- This new team I'm managing is a lot weaker than Leeds (relative to the teams playing in their leagues), battling relegation, morale and form is low, confidence is down, etc. So I'm guessing that if the team improves, maybe my average possession will be closer to 50% finally. Actually I won my last two games and I averaged 50% possession in those games.

[quote name=PPPPPPPPPPPP10;7745254I agree with this' date=' as long as those possession doesn't translate into goals I think it's fine, and as long as you can consistently score even with 40% possession then it's a working tactic

[/quote]

True. Most of the time my opponents can't create anything after making 20 back-to-back succesfull passes. So I guess the tactic still works. It is just annoying to watch your players keep chasing the ball for extended periods (after I switched to narrow width I mostly got rid of the problem of opponent players always getting the loose balls after my succesfull tackles).

I narrowed the width down by 1 more notch, so it is 7 now, and this further helped my possession. I'm averaging almost 50% now, with a relatively weaker team, so I guess it is ok.

My conclusion is: to achieve high possession with 4-1-3-2, you have to keep your players close to each other by pushing up the defensive line and using a narrow width. This helps offensively (your players always have safe passing options this way) and defensively (the opponents can't just carry the ball to the wings and play pig in the middle with your exposed fullback).

i play 4-3-1-2 (similar to your 4-1-3-2) so i had similar issues. if you look at the analysis graph, i can almost guarantee you the opposition fullbacks have completed the most passes

so have your two strikers man mark the fullbacks, problem solved

it limits your attack, but that's why you should have an AMC making forward runs. and IRL, that's what strikers do in a diamond formation, they close down fullbacks. but they never do this in FM unless you tell them to

i play 4-3-1-2 (similar to your 4-1-3-2) so i had similar issues. if you look at the analysis graph, i can almost guarantee you the opposition fullbacks have completed the most passes

so have your two strikers man mark the fullbacks, problem solved

it limits your attack, but that's why you should have an AMC making forward runs. and IRL, that's what strikers do in a diamond formation, they close down fullbacks. but they never do this in FM unless you tell them to

So, are you not using a higher defensive line and narrower width?

i'm using medium defensive line and wide-ish width. i just manually have my 2 strikers mark the full backs

This never happened to me in previous FM's, but in this one I am really struggling with possession.

I have to say I have never played with this formation I'm using now before, so it's probably related to my inexperience with this formation.

I'm (was) managing Leeds United by the way.

It is 4-1-3-2, balanced. My DMC is an anchor man, I made my fullbacks to make forward runs often. My three midfielders: The one in the middle is Central Midfielder, attack. The two on his left and right are box-to-box midfielders. Both my forwards are Complete Forwards, attack.

The default defensive line was at 8 (so 2 notches to the left from the middle). With the default settings I was averaging only 40% possession. Especially when I play on the road, I was being dominated possession wise, like 70%-30% even sometimes. So I did a few things. Pushed the defence up by 3 notches, increased the closing down of all players by 2 notches, and decreased the creative freedom and mentality of my midfielders and forwards. All these helped, but not a whole lot, I'm still averaging around 45%, although Leeds is one of the better teams in the league, and believe it or not, results got a little worse after these changes (and eventually I finished 11th and got sacked).

I tried to watch some portions of the matches in full length, to see what is happening, and the problem is not that my players give the ball away easily, but it is rather that when the opponent has the ball, they go to the flanks and the opponents three (typically) players start passing the ball around while my fullback and my box-to-box midfielder closer to that flank keep closing down on them, it's like the pig in the middle practice, and it goes on for too long, they keep passing forever like that. So that's how I always end up with a lot less possession than my opponents, I figured.

So, what do I need to do to prevent this?

I have my two fullbacks, the anchor man, and the two box-to-box midfielders on hard tackling. If I don't do this, the situation gets a lot worse. But this way I also always end up with a lot more tackles than my opponents, which means also more fouls and more cards.

The only thing coming to my mind that I haven't tried is to play with narrower width.

Any suggestions?

Thats the problem you are getting exsposed out wide meaning you are doing alot of chasing, also the better the playters you have the better you can control the game.

Thanks for the feedback.

This is exactly what I think is happening. Like I said, when I watch the match in full length, I see my box-to-box midfielders running around like crazy (which is something I want them to do actually, if they won't help the fullbacks the flanks will be completely exposed, so that's why I'm using two CM's as box-to-box midfielders), and this makes the opponent players pass the ball towards the back, over and over again. They almost never make a risky pass, instead they keep looking for an oppening.

The problem is that it is always 3-4 of them against my 2 (one fullback and one btb midfielder), so they always have an open teammate. If I play with narrower width, do you think maybe my anchorman and one of my stoppers can come to help and I can win the ball faster?

The key is to get your dm as a deep lying playmaker rather than an ancor man that way he will try to get on the ball more and help keep the play.