Can you over egg the pudding?

I think I play this game a lot, and I've been playing various incarnations of FM for six years, to the anguish of the wife, the kids, and my health! And I do struggle to understand FMs precise definitions of each instruction, especially Creative Freedom.

And with so many varying tactical options at our disposal, can and do we over egg the pudding (in other words, do we confuse the players with issuing so many instructions)? The fact any tactical option is open to us, are there more consequences of selecting instructions that clash or contradict another, than solutions to play better?

In terms of individual player instructions, do you find less is more?

Ha im same i've been playing years and still cant get use the sliders properly and same again its creative freedom i struggle getting right, i know what it dose and means but i can never seem to get balance right but because im stubborn and like trying to get things right myself i wont got in tactics forum

The way I understand it, it's easy to exploit the ME by changing the mentality/creative freedom/closing down sliders so it's better anyway to use the "standard" sliders that computer A.I. can also use. As far as tactical options, when a player have the ball their only option(s) is either to run with the ball, pass it, hold it, or shoot if he thinks he has a chance to score, playing with extended mode will show you what works and what doesn't. For CD less is more for me while the attacking classes need some adjustment to make sure it works the way I'd like it to

I couldn't agree more. Although, I find them more contradicting to me than to the AI. What I mean is our decisions are known by our players in the ME, but, they are all nonsense to me. Creative Freedom means that your player will defend this way and not shoot at the open goal because his creative freedom is to high etc.! Crazy! Your time wasting is too low so at that point your player decided to kick it to the opposition because he didn't have enough time on the ball. Insane!

I couldn't agree more. Although, I find them more contradicting to me than to the AI. What I mean is our decisions are known by our players in the ME, but, they are all nonsense to me. Creative Freedom means that your player will defend this way and not shoot at the open goal because his creative freedom is to high etc.! Crazy! Your time wasting is too low so at that point your player decided to kick it to the opposition because he didn't have enough time on the ball. Insane!

Don't use classic mode then.

You shouldn't have those issues if you use the TC.

I also think you can easily be led into a false sense of security when you think you have manipulated something that has worked wonders against a particular team, but you never seem to see it again. But it could be said this occurs IRL too.

I'm am going to attempt to try the less is more idea (whilst keeping high CF, because I have always found if I don't use it often, I simply don't create many chances at all) - I'll report back.

You know what Cleon, I hate the shouts too! I mean, they just do what the sliders would have done. I do use the TC but make minor adjustments, I still can not understand why my team play the way they do! I'm a tactician in real life, I coach, not at a great standard but am well qualified. My love for FM comes from playing it as a 13 year old and was instantly hooked! I find this game so far from tactical reality it's silly.

I have always struggled to completely understand Creative Freedom. We all have our own opinions of it, but statistically, and over a game to game basis, if I don't instruct my players to have high CF, I simply won't create chances (because I play a kinda CA system). But then I miss most of them, so what do you do?

Maybe what I should do is once I have the 1st goal, lower my CF, and see what happens (I've probably tried this b4). Mmmmm.

i just use very fluid and be done with it, then bring nani off when he skys his 5th shot in a row.

Simple tactics for me. TC only and no overiding instructions on any setting or any player. I keep it simple and just use shouts and the odd mentality change during matches(start nearly every game on standard philosophy). Strangely enough I don't see many ridiculous easy misses, massive injury lists or any of the other things people on here complain about. Maybe using just the TC plays a part in this.

Simple tactics for me. TC only and no overiding instructions on any setting or any player. I keep it simple and just use shouts and the odd mentality change during matches(start nearly every game on standard philosophy). Strangely enough I don't see many ridiculous easy misses, massive injury lists or any of the other things people on here complain about. Maybe using just the TC plays a part in this.

I do the same - keeping it as simple as possible and I'm having huge success.

The tactical creator makes more sense than tampering with classic tactic (sliders), imo.

I like my players to choose the best option in any situation, so I tend to avoid setting the instructions to Often when I can. I have set my full backs to run forward and dribble rarely, but when given normal Creative Freedom they join the attack now and again, creating goals from crosses and passing options for the wingers and midfielders. The same with the strikers - they are told to run forward rarely in order to drop deep, but with Much creative freedom they do so when the opportunity arises anyway.

So if you tell a player to do something often, this overrides the other options to a greater degree, while a mix between sometimes and rarely will leave things more up to him and his particular skills, plus creative freedom. Creative Freedom is both a Flair boost and an instruction that allows the player to override the other instructions. The less creative freedom, the more robotic you play, and the higher the chances are that your tactical instructions are not perfect enough for a particular match. You could say that rigid systems leaves everything up to you and your tactical skills, while fluid systems leave more up to the players. That is at least how I see it.

You could say that this means that if you have weak players (in lower leagues, for instance), you should go with a rigid system, but their lack of skill would make the system even more sensitive to minute flaws or inconsistencies than if you had better players. So if you are not a FM-tactical genious, I would advice against using rigid systems in Classic mode. A rigid TC system would be less likely to cause unbalance, forcing bad decisions from your players.

I would advise to completely ignore classic settings, i use the standard TC and i honestly dont see half the nonsense posted on here. My defence (whilst i do see certain me failures) doesnt get pulled apart everywhere, dont make tons of bad mistakes, my strikers dont miss every one on one, anything like that, i make a solid but simple base tactic and just use shouts to adjust things. I think removing the classic tactics would be a good step in the right direction in the long run, or at least removing access to them. Creative freedom wise i rarely touch that, i give my playmaker a bit more than anyone else, but thats it, its left on standard and i roaming wise its also standard, i have never felt the need to push either of these above that.

I've been trying a few tactical changes in an old unused save I still have (sometimes I keep games saved so I can try a tactical idea without it affecting my current save - I'm usually none the wiser though) and I keep coming up with the same conundrum. Low/Med CF: Don't create many chances; High CF: Create lots of good quality chances, but miss the majority.

Another query I have is involving how the same player can score in high numbers in friendlies and miss similar chances in competitive games - how does an artificial player know he is playing in a meaningless friendly, and why would it affect his ability to score similar chances? And this isn't about CCC, it seems, after playing the same practice match, he only scored 1 in 3, yet in pre-season, against many different teams, he scored 11 is 4 (3 sub). It does seem to matter what kinda chance it is.

I understand to mirror RL, FM has to code player error, be it a Def or Str, mistakes are made by both AI and human player. So a Str missing a good chance is either an error by the user whom has comprised his instructions, or just the player himself. So how would we know whether it is our error?

How is player error written into FM?

Another query I have is involving how the same player can score in high numbers in friendlies and miss least similar chances in competitive games - how does an artificial player know he is playing in a meaningless friendly, and why would it affect his ability to score similar chances?

That bits quite easy. Each game will have an importance rating if you will, friendlies will be obviously low as they are low pressure games usually against weaker opposition, league games are far more important and carry more pressure. The important match and ability to handle pressure hidden stats will come into play.

Thanks, MP. So a player's shots to goals ratio can be affected just by the match they play in regardless of tactics or ability? And I thought I was persistently doing something wrong. In this case it isn't me, it's the player. I have rarely examined the Tactic Creator or even try to tamper with it.

So when players are missing similar chances, that they scored with consummate ease in meaningless games, it is simulated player error? I am fascinated to understand how is that written into a game?

So sometimes, if a player suddenly can't hit a cows backside with a banjo (can't score to save his life), it's time to either switch his position or simply sub him?

And I've been racking my brains, trying to be patient that with all the pressure my team is causing, and with all the chances I create, I will be rewarded, yet patience doesn't seem to be the problem. It's the game's way of telling my to change something?

Think of it this way if you will. ( and this is my take, not the official response or anything )

Each game has an importance rating, say for example 1-10, 1 being pre-season against a BSN team, 10 being a cup final, title deciding game ect. The higher the number the more pressure on your team. Each player has an important match rating, and an ability to handle pressure rating and a consistency rating, again the higher the importance rating of the match the more these attributes will come into the equation. Then you have to consider other factors like moral, form and other attributes like determination, or decisions. Thats with me making it extremely simplified.

In your second paragraph, what is happening is your player is under more pressure to score in the bigger games than in the meaninless ones. How the game works this out will be based on what i have said above and probably more, it wont be a simple equation.

They try to make this as realistic as they can, so sometimes there wont be anything you can do to help a player but sub him, people have off days, players in FM the same, the trick as the manager is learning to spot this and action appropriately. You will also have players that no matter what wont be consistantly good, or show up in the big games because they do not have the mentality for it.

TY MP.

And there's me trying to be patient!

I would advise to completely ignore classic settings, i use the standard TC and i honestly dont see half the nonsense posted on here. My defence (whilst i do see certain me failures) doesnt get pulled apart everywhere, dont make tons of bad mistakes, my strikers dont miss every one on one, anything like that, i make a solid but simple base tactic and just use shouts to adjust things. I think removing the classic tactics would be a good step in the right direction in the long run, or at least removing access to them. Creative freedom wise i rarely touch that, i give my playmaker a bit more than anyone else, but thats it, its left on standard and i roaming wise its also standard, i have never felt the need to push either of these above that.

Just because you don't use them doesn't mean they should be removed.

I use the TC myself and edit almost everything and have great success. Any one who thinks that the tactics available in game are more 'legitimate' should bear in mind that they are someone else's idea of how to approach the game and I don't see much difference between using them and those created by users, made available for download. Each to their own I say and my own is loads of CF for my front five/six and average to little working back from there.

Very true, i just think now with the TC, it should be the focus of the tactics. I guess as long as the TC is full of classic set up templates it still has its place, but id hope in the long run they move away from that.

I'm not belittling anyone with that btw, i really dont care how you set your tactics up in terms of using the TC or classic, what works for me doesnt work for the next person and in no way does using the TC make me any better than anyone.

It is ironic that the TC is clearly trying to point us in the right directions, but we're that set in our ways of creating our own tactics from various FM versions, we're compelled to tinker, and I suppose if you take that away completely, we'll never learn. Much of what I have learned is trial and error, and to attempt to implement and translate RL tactics into the game.

I must say, my vision of defending has translated pretty well, now I just need my players to start burying the chances they get.

Thanks, MP. So a player's shots to goals ratio can be affected just by the match they play in regardless of tactics or ability? And I thought I was persistently doing something wrong. In this case it isn't me, it's the player. I have rarely examined the Tactic Creator or even try to tamper with it.

So when players are missing similar chances, that they scored with consummate ease in meaningless games, it is simulated player error? I am fascinated to understand how is that written into a game?

So sometimes, if a player suddenly can't hit a cows backside with a banjo (can't score to save his life), it's time to either switch his position or simply sub him?

And I've been racking my brains, trying to be patient that with all the pressure my team is causing, and with all the chances I create, I will be rewarded, yet patience doesn't seem to be the problem. It's the game's way of telling my to change something?

Yes I would say that if a player wastes chances until his rating suffers, it's just not his day. Even if you change instructions around, he's still having a poor match for some reason. I usually wait until the 55th minute before making substitutions and if the score is still unsatisfactory, players having poor performances may have to go instead of tired players.

Another thing to keep in mind is that it is not always a good idea to create 20-30 shots in a game. The only thing that matters is the quality of the chances, and as have been shown many many times in threads on here regarding "rubber banding" or "missing 1-on-1s", people's (and the game's) interpretation of what constitutes a big chance is much too liberal. I only consider chances where the shooter is positioned within the 16-meter box in a narrow band to the left and right of the centre aiming with his strong foot and having the time to aim as clear cut chances. That or of course those instances where the shooter has an open goal in front of him because the keeper and defence is completely outplayed. You don't see those square passes too often, though.

Another thing to keep in mind is that it is not always a good idea to create 20-30 shots in a game. The only thing that matters is the quality of the chances.....

Thanks BD, and this is exactly why I play what looks like a Deep Lying CA system, to create more space in behind, and between the lines of my opponents (if I put a player in a certain area of the pitch, his position would naturally be picked up by an opponent, removing that space you can play in and exploit).

And in my 2nd season I have signed a few really good quality creative players, so I now create many good quality chances than I normally do (I hate using CCC because it is so subjective). I absolutely agree that true good quality chances are positional based (positional space, player's position, and player's footedness), yet even though my tactic remains the same, and my new players are creating a raft of chances, I really should be scoring more (My new striker smash a square ball from 6 yrds our, dead centre at the crossbar. I'm surprised he didn't break the bloody thing).

Funnily enough, I did do something with this tactic on FM11 that I haven't really attempted on FM12 yet, and that is move my poachers CF to low for a full match. Going to try and get another game in tonight to try it (I used this with Cristian Benitez and he scored over 50 goals in a season)!

But I guess we all strive for perfection like RL managers, I maybe it is a bit of a holy grail.

Also keep in mind that complacency and nervousness both cause players to miss chances and make wrong decisions, and that they can be a little influenced by either (or both, the 10 last league matches of the season) without the motivation gadget actually saying so.

If you use the TC poacher settings I think his mentality would be quite high, almost max attacking mentality. He will also be told to run with ball often and hit through balls rarely. In other words, he will be really selfish but at the same time really active on the pitch creating many chances for himself, especially if you create many through balls through the centre. Unless he scores early on, missing chances will make him even more impatient, and thus he will not wait long enough when through on goal, shooting too early. Lowering mentality to Normal or slightly Attacking, telling him to pass now and then and to pick the right moment to dribble rather than all the time will decrease the amounts of chances he gets and therefore likely increase the efficiency. If all your midfielders are told to hit through balls all the time, then, things may become a bit unrhythmic, so you may want to reduce the amount of Often Through Balls all over.

Doing this will change your style to a much more patient one, so it might be something you'd not want to do, but I think that if you won everything last season the other teams will be more careful tactically and more fired up against you in the 2nd season and so the same approach may not work as well. Going a more patient approach might be the answer to your problems, which I am 200% sure WWfan would call "rushed chances"

This is, needless to say, based on random, ungrounded assumptions about your tactic

Great post!

Also keep in mind that complacency and nervousness both cause players to miss chances and make wrong decisions, and that they can be a little influenced by either (or both, the 10 last league matches of the season) without the motivation gadget actually saying so.

If you use the TC poacher settings I think his mentality would be quite high, almost max attacking mentality. He will also be told to run with ball often and hit through balls rarely. In other words, he will be really selfish but at the same time really active on the pitch creating many chances for himself, especially if you create many through balls through the centre. Unless he scores early on, missing chances will make him even more impatient, and thus he will not wait long enough when through on goal, shooting too early. Lowering mentality to Normal or slightly Attacking, telling him to pass now and then and to pick the right moment to dribble rather than all the time will decrease the amounts of chances he gets and therefore likely increase the efficiency. If all your midfielders are told to hit through balls all the time, then, things may become a bit unrhythmic, so you may want to reduce the amount of Often Through Balls all over.

Doing this will change your style to a much more patient one, so it might be something you'd not want to do, but I think that if you won everything last season the other teams will be more careful tactically and more fired up against you in the 2nd season and so the same approach may not work as well. Going a more patient approach might be the answer to your problems, which I am 200% sure WWfan would call "rushed chances"

This is, needless to say, based on random, ungrounded assumptions about your tactic

Also, if some of these early misses are in fact saves, life will become even more difficult because there is a good chance their keeper will start "Playing with confidence" (the legendary 'superkeeper') for most of the match and pull off great saves to deny your striker when he does get good chances.