What is acceptable for you?

Having been playing FM for around half a dozen years now, I spent most of my time trying to learn the game myself. I have now find myself setting my tactics to work against the idiosyncrasies for the game. For example, many ppls bug bear, the dreading CCC issue, which I don't believe is a bug, just an exaggeration of something that occurs rarely in most games IRL. CCCs should be few and far between, so when them come along you will score them.

But since rejoining the forum recently when I downloaded FM12, I have become pretty alarmed with how blasé SI are with known bugs. I used to speculate that something was a bug, and now I know for sure that something is a bug, I have found it incredible that the do truly exist. I just what to add this is not a rant, because having played and used computers for over 30years, so I wouldn't even know were to begin to understand how difficult it is to code a modern, in-depth football management sim.

However, not only have two ME bugs been recently confirmed by SI on here to me, but these bugs have existed for quite sometime since the new 3D ME was developed. Also, now and again, I have experienced the independent ball movement which has directly led to goals against me; this doesn't occur often, but when it does, should I just accept it? Or should I make excuses up for what I have just witnessed?

I will be completely honest, if I loose points etc due to a known bug or dodgy ball movement (invisible crossbar anyone?), for me the game is null and void, and I instantly replay it....and if I loose honestly, then for me, that's acceptable. But I also wish to add, I recently lost 2 points in 2 games due to 2 different bugs and I accepted them, because I considered my opponents probably would have scored against me anyway.

But this course of action only frustrates me that a simulation cannot simulate a game without adding uncontrollable circumstances that really make feel you've been cheated. And the only course of action to create balance and fairness is to replay bugged games. I hate replaying games, nearly as much as I hate loosing, but until another option could be recommended, I see no better option to address the balance.

And this is my question to you guys. When a bug has directly led to you conceding a goal, costing you points, or loosing a cup final, do you accept it? And what do you consider are acceptable bugs in FM, even a bug that may cost you your season?

I never re-load, ever, it makes your game worthless and any achievement is tainted.

No bug has ever cost me a season, one moment doesnt cost you a season. If it boils down to one moment you havent done enough for the rest of the year, imo.

If a bug hasn't been fixed it'll be one of three reasons:

1) It's not important enough to fix as there are other bugs that are more important than it that require the attention. These bugs eventually get fixed when the more important ones are gone.

2) It's too dangerous to fix. Fixing some bugs can completely unbalance the game, leading to the bug being reintroduced as the experience with the bug in is much better than the experience with the bug gone, and there's just not enough time or resources to fix this bug and the ones it causes

3) It can't be fixed. Some issues will be down to the limitations of the code, and a complete rewrite will be needed to stop them happening.

Thats exactly it, replying because of a poor animation is a terrible way of playing, remember the ME doesnt have invisible cross bars or anything like that, your just watching animations that may be slightly bugged.

This Bug below ruined my season, and has the potential to ruin my whole savegame. The line between working and playing became very vague at some point. I started to watch full matches to understand the impact of this bug on my squad, forgetting I was playing a game that should be fun:

I call it the "Rebucabs Bug" aka Reputation bug caused by steam.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/293822-Manager-reputation-not-functioning-properly-anymore

The match engine doesn't particularly bother me as I think the game will calculate everything to work out what is going to happen. The defender being 5 foot nearer to the ball but being beat to it because he jogs looks stupid but I think it is just telling us the striker was going to win that ball and it is just shown badly on the graphics.

The thing that annoys me most on a long term save is how badly the AI builds the squads of the other teams. Top clubs will spend money on players to never pick them and just let them rot in the reserves, some clubs just spend stupid money on a player who has never done well at the level they want him to play at and other clubs just don't show any sort of ambition to improve the squad they have got even through free transfers.

A bug caused by steam? that's a new one

Hahahaha i would love to know how Steam creates bugs in the FM code, please explain to us

That's not a bug. That's the game working in a way you don't like.

Reloading is never acceptable under any circumstances. Ever.

I understand the need to give excuses, sorry, I mean reasons why there are bugs. I really hoped we could leave out whether bugs could be fixed or not, because as things stand, they are there, and there is little us minions can do about them.

I was just interested in understanding whether ppl either accepted them no matter the cost, and/or looked to work around them based upon their consequences. Obviously when I mean a bug could cost you your season, I mean you lost the league title, a cup final, or was even sacked due to a bugged game.

For example, when I was able, I used to play squash (similar to racketball), and because there was no referee, whenever a shot cause a difference of opinion (whether the ball was in or out), we played the shot again. We we're both in agreement, and if even the replayed point was lost, we accepted it because we understood that it was fair and balanced. It wasn't cheating, it was reasonable, because sometimes you wouldn't be in a position to see exactly if the shot was in or out sometimes. It would be more a cheat had my opponent demanded his shot was fair because he would have gained an advantage by deceitful means.

Another example is, many ppl complain about injuries lately. If key players are consistently being injured by persistent and unpunished fouls by the AI and and this is confirmed as a bug, is it acceptable? And if it isn't acceptable, so you replayed that game, and your same key player scored the winner, would that justify the decision to void the first game because the AI gained an advantage by injuring your match-winner.

The bottom line is, even by replaying the game because of a dodgy bug, there's still no guarantee whether you will win or loose the replay. It is just a question of whether it is a way to readdress the balance.

But the AI do not go out to injure your players, there is no injury bug!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But no it still wouldnt justify re-loading, your not re-balancing anything, infact your using a HUGE advantage over the AI and as such may as well be the bug your looking to avoid. Why would you think its ok to re-load the game just because one of your players got injured? Where is the accomplishment in that? Is it not a far greater test of your skills to win without this one super player?

FM games are not usually like real life games, very few of them sit on a knife edge and rely on one moment to decide the match, almost every game is winnable, even if you come across an animation bug, you dont need to cheat the game to beat it.

I post about bugs & pester SI with evidence &/or opinion on how I think something should work, as for reloading...no, never, not a chance.

@bullybeef, do you reload when you benefit from a bug?

I don't replay games, one thing that you should consider though... the ME isn't in anyway biased toward the player, so whatever bug that had hit you and caused you to lose had also hit your opponent's team and caused them to lose... do you reload when bugs hit your opponent and cause you to win then?

Would you replay the game if the AI lost because you won via a bug?

*edit*Ugh...beaten

It's all very well people taking the moral high ground and saying that reloading takes the enjoyment away but there's one very important points to raise:

FM is a single player game (for the most part), if people want to 'cheat' they are certainly welcome to do so, it's their own moral decision to do so, or not. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' answer to this one and it is disingenous of people to suggest that someone can't or shouldn't do so.

I've never really been into reloading, but like the OP, if you are actually stuffed by a bug, there are times when I find it acceptable to do so. An example of this on FM12 is the ridiculous 'goalkeeper wandering out of his area carrying the ball bug' that results in a red card. There's no way I'm having that and I will replay the match, taking whatever result comes my way. As I say these instances are few and far between, although the aforementioned keeper thing seems to be more prevalent in the latest patch than ever before.

So do you replay if that happens to the opposition as well?

So do you replay if that happens to the opposition as well?

That's my piece of moral high ground, go find your own.

What if the AI (computer) is unhappy because it has lost a match because of the same bug you are experiencing. Should it be allowed to reload the game from the latest save and play it again?

If there's bugs in the ME, or the 3D rendition of the ME, it will surely not only affect you, the gamer, but also all AI opponents, no? So ... take it on the chin, get on with it. Bugs are unpleasant, yes, but it's the same for everyone.

But most important to remember is: It's just a game.

Edit: Snap. Same point made by several here at approx. the same time, I see .... blame it on the time it takes me to write a post.

So do you replay if that happens to the opposition as well?

It's not been an issue yet. I'll let you know what happens when it does.

I'll be willing to wager every penny I have that you've benefited from a match engine bug.

I'll be willing to wager every penny I have that you've benefited from a match engine bug.

I don't doubt it, but if you'd read my post properly you'd see that it is an extremely rare occurence for me to take this step. However, having my keeper sent off after 2 mins because of a totally dumb bug isn't my idea of a fun game, hence I'll quit it straight away and reload.

I'll be willing to wager every penny I have that you've benefited from a match engine bug.

So 2p then, Barside?

@Milnerpoint, my English is not native, but causing and creating are two totally different words, my apologies if I was unclear .

I started with the demo version of FM, I was very satisfied and I bought the full game. After a few months enjoying the best save ever, steam decided without my permission to update my game. As a result this beautiful save, turned into my worst nightmare.

So, if you buy the game legally every year, you can have a disadvantage towards somebody who has cracked the game, because he’s not forced to update, and like on the stock market, the value of my game has hit rock bottom.

Unlike other bugs, I can't avoid this one, so this is the first time that I can say that a bug is not acceptable.

Corner cheat: Don't use it

Match engine Bugs: The opposition can also suffer from this bug.

Even though they are irritating, you can always convince yourself that you can click the continue button.

I really appreciate you candid views, but if I am cheating, I'm only cheating myself right? It isn't hurting anyone. It also relieves frustration, in the knowledge that persistently complaining about bugs isn't going to get anyone anywhere. Most of the time I just require knowledge whether I understand certain parts of the game. Most of the time, even after six year, I still don't.

And I am pleased I am not only one to understand that the moral high ground of accepting everything that goes against you in the digital realm of FM could also be accused as naive and gullible (eg: easily persuaded to believe something), as much as doing something about it is cheating. If I am cheating, obviously it is because I feel cheated. It is spiteful, and although I would like to think it isn't personal, a known bug causing the removal of a my pleasure is also spiteful.

As far as what I do if the boot was on the other foot, well I wish I had seen my team actually benefit from a bug, now that would be novel. On my kids lives, I have never witnessed a ME bug in my favour, which only adds to my curiosity. Why does it only seem to go against me? Maybe I'd be more acceptable if I did witness this occurring as much in my favour.

And just to repeat again, even when games are replayed, there's still no guarantee I win the replayed game anyway, so whether I gain an advantage isn't the purpose (I am going to start counting how many times I am going to mention this). It is all about the principle of a clean and fair game.

As far as my example regarding the injury analogy, this was hypothetical, as I said, if the high number of injuries were due to a bug, would people accept them? That was my question.

If I discovered that irregular injures (injuries to otherwise fully fit players or muscle tear injuries, such as hamstring tears, caused by tackle - as I have mentioned elsewhere, you cannot have hamstring strain/tear from a tackle, you have to be running) was a bug, of course I wouldn't accept it.

Clearly, the fantasy of living in the FM world drives people to acceptability; to believe 'luck' occurs in a computer game, and it will even itself out in the long run, as though the game recalls when it performs a bug. I honestly admire your agreeability. I just wish I could be so permitting.

However, I just wished to repeat, my last two games I was on the wrong end of two bugs which cost my 4 points, and I accepted them. Like I said, I detest having to replay games due to no fault of my own, but I do so when I see it necessary.

As far as what I do if the boot was on the other foot, well I wish I had seen my team actually benefit from a bug, now that would be novel. On my kids lives, I have never witnessed a ME bug in my favour, which only adds to my curiosity. Why does it only seem to go against me? Maybe I'd be more acceptable if I did witness this occurring as much in my favour.

This is all about perception & how the human mind works, if a negative event has a positive impact for you personally then you are less likely to either notice it or view the event in its true context

From a real world view if a crash in the housing market means that you can afford to move out of a rented rat hole & buy a nice new home do you consider the wider implications of your sudden ability to get on the property ladder?

As far as what I do if the boot was on the other foot, well I wish I had seen my team actually benefit from a bug, now that would be novel. On my kids lives, I have never witnessed a ME bug in my favour, which only adds to my curiosity. Why does it only seem to go against me? Maybe I'd be more acceptable if I did witness this occurring as much in my favour.

Because we as humans remember these situations vividly, yet we almost instantly forget when it works in our favour. The ME does not act in a Human vs AI sense, it has no idea which team is controlled by us and which team is controlled by the AI, none at all. EVERY thing that can happen to your team can happen to the AI's team, with no exceptions at all.

*edit*

Barside, bugger off that was my point!! hahaha

2D for the win, dont see any of these strange happenings in the ME that way you dont feel cheated. Simples

Commentary > 2D

2D for the win, dont see any of these strange happenings in the ME that way you dont feel cheated. Simples

So the mad keeper thing doesn't happen in 2D?

Surely that can't be right?

This is all about perception & how the human mind works, if a negative event has a positive impact for you personally then you are less likely to either notice it or view the event in its true context

From a real world view if a crash in the housing market means that you can afford to move out of a rented rat hole & buy a nice new home do you consider the wider implications of your sudden ability to get on the property ladder?

I only know of 2/3 bugs that I can't do with most of the time, and never witness them occurring in my favour - it would be nice to have the advantage. And these particular bugs directly lead to goals so I think my human mind would have noticed them. How many bugs are there that my human mind has missed?!

And yeah, I revel in other people's misery!

IMHO most of the ME bugs revolve around defensive positioning & decision making, the most common are FB's ball watching, CB's chasing a through ball only to stop when it gets close to the byline (linked to player running away from ball that is going out, take the quick throw damn it), marking at throw-ins, defensive lines taking too deep a position on wide free-kicks & attacking players idly standing by as the midfield plays a game of piggy in the middle.

I have seen all of these affect both sides in equal measure.

Well this makes sense, your acceptance comes from the fact there you notice so many problems with the ME, you'd be replaying practically every game. No wonder you don't do so.

My main bug bears are when players don't STAY BACK on attacking throws when instructed to and every now and again your opponents score on the counter. This was suggested to occur both for and against the human player, but I am yet to see it occur in my favour. And yeah, defenders slowing down when moving towards the ball is a nuisance, but rarely does it cost my a goal. It probably hinders me scoring more than anything else.

I feel much better, and hats off for having so much patience with your bug bears.

Barside has reported a lot of ME bugs, he knows his stuff when it comes to that, hence why we say, it def works in your favour as much as against you, you just dont remember them as well.

well ones where corners are given where balls don't cross the line, i'm 80% sure that sometimes the wrong thing is given (player hits it wide, corner etc).

the annoyance of players knocking a ball out of play when they run to collect it is annoying as well.

Barside has reported a lot of ME bugs, he knows his stuff when it comes to that, hence why we say, it def works in your favour as much as against you, you just dont remember them as well.

I've hardly bothered reporting any ME bugs, not worth it when we're led to believe that the current system is about to be consigned to history.

I will of course be paying a great deal of attention to any new ME when us oiks get to have a look during the demo.

you have done in the past havent you?

Maybe ive been smoking something again, sorry!

So, are bugs accepted by the majority because they can affect both the human and AI player and is therefore perceived as 'luck'? But why would we complain if they are an acceptable 'part of football' and FM, and we are simply unlucky or indeed lucky when it occurs?

If it is acceptable in the ME, why don't ppl accept it when mentioning it on the forum? Why take it out on SI? if we can control when bugs are accepted by simply refusing to accept them and calling a bugged game null and void? Or is accepting a bugged game just a matter of honour and taking the moral high ground? Replaying the game doesn't guarantee a win, it just gives the ME opportunity for the fair and even game.

Wow man, this thread's getting heavy - I think must have been smoking something I shouldn't!

i dont persoanlly reload ever. never even crossed my mind but everyone has the right to play their game as they want. hell if i wanna play 6 goalkeepers upfront and a striker in goal who is anyone else to criticise or have a go. its everyones individual game and they can play it as they want. previous fm game liverpool in 2067 needed me to beat fulham to survive and being utd i played 2 keepers up front 1 defender and the rest across attacking midfielders and midfield. i let fulham score 7 past me to make sure i couldnt fight back and send liverpool down.

I really appreciate you candid views, but if I am cheating, I'm only cheating myself right? It isn't hurting anyone. It also relieves frustration, in the knowledge that persistently complaining about bugs isn't going to get anyone anywhere. Most of the time I just require knowledge whether I understand certain parts of the game. Most of the time, even after six year, I still don't.

And I am pleased I am not only one to understand that the moral high ground of accepting everything that goes against you in the digital realm of FM could also be accused as naive and gullible (eg: easily persuaded to believe something), as much as doing something about it is cheating. If I am cheating, obviously it is because I feel cheated. It is spiteful, and although I would like to think it isn't personal, a known bug causing the removal of a my pleasure is also spiteful.

As far as what I do if the boot was on the other foot, well I wish I had seen my team actually benefit from a bug, now that would be novel. On my kids lives, I have never witnessed a ME bug in my favour, which only adds to my curiosity. Why does it only seem to go against me? Maybe I'd be more acceptable if I did witness this occurring as much in my favour.

And just to repeat again, even when games are replayed, there's still no guarantee I win the replayed game anyway, so whether I gain an advantage isn't the purpose (I am going to start counting how many times I am going to mention this). It is all about the principle of a clean and fair game.

As far as my example regarding the injury analogy, this was hypothetical, as I said, if the high number of injuries were due to a bug, would people accept them? That was my question.

If I discovered that irregular injures (injuries to otherwise fully fit players or muscle tear injuries, such as hamstring tears, caused by tackle - as I have mentioned elsewhere, you cannot have hamstring strain/tear from a tackle, you have to be running) was a bug, of course I wouldn't accept it.

Clearly, the fantasy of living in the FM world drives people to acceptability; to believe 'luck' occurs in a computer game, and it will even itself out in the long run, as though the game recalls when it performs a bug. I honestly admire your agreeability. I just wish I could be so permitting.

However, I just wished to repeat, my last two games I was on the wrong end of two bugs which cost my 4 points, and I accepted them. Like I said, I detest having to replay games due to no fault of my own, but I do so when I see it necessary.

This takes politeness to a whole new level. Well done.

Anyone who feels justified in reloading, is justified. It's a game, it's their game and they are the boss of themselves.

So the mad keeper thing doesn't happen in 2D?

Surely that can't be right?

No it does happen just dont notice it as much

I've not used 3d for around a year and a half now and i found it a lot more fun than previous saves playing in 3d

So, are bugs accepted by the majority because they can affect both the human and AI player and is therefore perceived as 'luck'? But why would we complain if they are an acceptable 'part of football' and FM, and we are simply unlucky or indeed lucky when it occurs?

If it is acceptable in the ME, why don't ppl accept it when mentioning it on the forum? Why take it out on SI? if we can control when bugs are accepted by simply refusing to accept them and calling a bugged game null and void? Or is accepting a bugged game just a matter of honour and taking the moral high ground? Replaying the game doesn't guarantee a win, it just gives the ME opportunity for the fair and even game.

Wow man, this thread's getting heavy - I think must have been smoking something I shouldn't!

Bugs accepted? Well, we know there are some, and we would like them to not be there, obviously. But we also accept that the ME is extremely difficult to get right, and that we probably will have to live with bugs in it. Old ones get fixed, new ones pops up with every new match engine/AI upgrade. Some will take a while to get fixed, some are easy - and some maybe never will. I'm quite sure P. Collyer and his lads do what they can to improve the ME all the time. It's a game. No games are bug free.

Of course you can do whatever you like - if you feel you must reload and replay, fine. No moral superiority notions from me, I cheat too, from time to time. But again; it's a game. Don't take it so damn serious.

That's not a bug. That's the game working in a way you don't like.

Reloading is never acceptable under any circumstances. Ever.

Oh, really? Like the bug in FM 2006 where you would win a cup match but it would appear as a defeat in your results and you would be eliminated from the competition?

Maybe you lost the cup match but the match engine made it look like you won it?

well ones where corners are given where balls don't cross the line, i'm 80% sure that sometimes the wrong thing is given (player hits it wide, corner etc).

the annoyance of players knocking a ball out of play when they run to collect it is annoying as well.

They do cross the line in the ME, just the animation is slightly off. There are a few incorrect decisions made, but way less than real life.

As for the knocking out of play when within 5 feet of the byline, man that is annoying. It maybe happens once a season in park football, loads of times per game on key highlights alone in FM.

Maybe you lost the cup match but the match engine made it look like you won it?

hahahahahahahaha

Great points, thomit.

It is paradoxical that has much as we know it is a game, that will never completely simulate RL, we still take things incredibly seriously, especially in the heat of a particular match.

Maybe I felt my little confessional was something I presumed would be taken by many as a huge sin against the game. Maybe I hoped others felt forced to do the same. But the good feeling I have received, as much as I always regret having to replay the odd game when I am hit by a dreaded, and impromptu bug, there are people whom understand my frustration of feeling the need to resort to these infrequent actions.

Loosing hurts, especially loosing unfairly, and we can have no doubt FM has hit a fascinating nerve in manipulating us all to doubt what we see and feel for something that can be so inconsequential to many.

I guess I feel for the novice, whom takes a punt on FM, yet feels all eyes are on him when things are going wrong, causing the disillusionment that comes with, and the fear of how you can overcome random 'acts of the FM god', without throwing the game in the trash. And this is exactly my point, I love the game, and will always find a way to enjoy the parts I like, and workaround the moments I don't.

I guess, for each of us, be it the able, experienced, or amateur, there's more than one way to skin FM. And for the sake of my enjoyment and longevity of the game, I guess I remain firmly in the unable!

Maybe you lost the cup match but the match engine made it look like you won it?

Naahhh..that was a really annoying FM 2006 bug. On the other hand, I lost once but was credited with the win in the FA Cup. Had to reload that one too

Match Engine bugs don't really bother me much. I've ceased to consider it a representation of football as I know it, and just watch it to see what happens. I spent the whole of FM11 watching the keeper kick long balls out, a midfielder head it back towards him, and my or the opposition's attacker beat the defence for pace and have a one-on-one. Easily happened 2-3 times a game if I remember correctly. I can see why they frustrate people, but I'm not really bothered, since it happens to both teams in the same manner and it won't negatively affect your chances of winning the league in the long-term.

The ones that annoy me are the ones outside of the Match Engine. Like one where, in Indonesia, you can only have 1 foreign player - except that restriction applies only to the player, the AI can sign as many as they like. That really ruined my Indonesian save. There's no real way of playing around it, you're being significantly out-performed by the AI and there's nothing you can do to rectify the situation.

Anything that happens is part and parcel of the game...if I feel that the game isn't good enough for me, then I will just completely stop playing it.