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James.Clench
25-01-2008, 20:48
According to the manual Flair is defined as a player having a natural talent for the creative and occasional unpredictability. A player with a lot of flair will be one of the key attacking components in any team.

So basically does that mean a player with a lot of flair will be very good at being creative?

If thats the case, then whats the point of the creativity Attribute?

And If flair actually means how good a player is at confusing defenders with fancy step-overs, and beating players with cruijff turns, then whats the difference between flair and technique?

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

James.Clench
25-01-2008, 20:48
According to the manual Flair is defined as a player having a natural talent for the creative and occasional unpredictability. A player with a lot of flair will be one of the key attacking components in any team.

So basically does that mean a player with a lot of flair will be very good at being creative?

If thats the case, then whats the point of the creativity Attribute?

And If flair actually means how good a player is at confusing defenders with fancy step-overs, and beating players with cruijff turns, then whats the difference between flair and technique?

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Amaroq
26-01-2008, 00:36
Right, I may not be the best to answer this, but I'll have a crack at it.

I've been looking at these attributes as:

Creativity: The ability to spot an incisive, perhaps harder-to-anticipate "killer pass". A player with low Creativity will only see the "obvious", which the defense will Anticipate. (SI have also stated that Creativity impacts decision to try Long Range shots in 8.0.1)

Technique: The ability to consistently achieve given moves. For example, taking a free kick is partly "Free Kick" and partly "Technique". Making a good tackle is partly "Tackling" and partly "Technique". Successfully hitting a pass is partly "Passing" and partly "Technique".

Flair: The willingness to try an unexpected individual move: the back-heel, the step-over, a volley, an over-head kick, etc.

So, these things would combine with ones Decisions attribute. A player with high Creativity but low Decisions, Passing, and Technique .. might keep on spotting these killers balls, deciding to try them, and sending them straight to the opposition.

Likewise, a player with high Flair but low Decisions, Finishing, and Technique .. might try a spectacular overhead kick, but whiff entirely.

Hope that helps - its opinion and experience rather than anything I know "for sure"!

bcm
26-01-2008, 01:43
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by James.Clench:
According to the manual Flair is defined as a player having a natural talent for the creative and occasional unpredictability. A player with a lot of flair will be one of the key attacking components in any team.

So basically does that mean a player with a lot of flair will be very good at being creative?

If thats the case, then whats the point of the creativity Attribute?

And If flair actually means how good a player is at confusing defenders with fancy step-overs, and beating players with cruijff turns, then whats the difference between flair and technique?

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you have an MC with high Cre and low flair(Xabi Alonso), he could be easly marked out and won't have a many chances to be creative. And if you have a 19 finishing striker with low flair, he won't be able to use his finishing, if he is marked out.

Bluenose_92
26-01-2008, 01:52
I think of Flair as Tricks/The ability to do the unexpected 'highlight' moves like overhead kicks etc.

James.Clench
26-01-2008, 07:31
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Creativity: The ability to spot an incisive, perhaps harder-to-anticipate "killer pass". A player with low Creativity will only see the "obvious", which the defense will Anticipate. (SI have also stated that Creativity impacts decision to try Long Range shots in 8.0.1) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then shouldn't creativity simply be called vision?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Flair: The willingness to try an unexpected individual move: the back-heel, the step-over, a volley, an over-head kick, etc.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So if someone has 20 for flair then it just means that they will try fancy football more often, i.e. step-overs, back-heels etc, but it gives no indication of how good they are at actually doing it?

SWaRFeGa
26-01-2008, 07:44
I think it means whenever they DO try something elaborate it WILL work more often than not.

But this does not mean they will try it all the time.

Flair is a natural talent. Or a knack or being able to do something special.

A player of Flair 1 will try a back-heel and it might not find it's destination.
A player of Flair 20 will try a back-heel. It will fly right into your path, then he'll make you a cup of tea.

its me
26-01-2008, 07:58
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by James.Clench:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Creativity: The ability to spot an incisive, perhaps harder-to-anticipate "killer pass". A player with low Creativity will only see the "obvious", which the defense will Anticipate. (SI have also stated that Creativity impacts decision to try Long Range shots in 8.0.1) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then shouldn't creativity simply be called vision?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Flair: The willingness to try an unexpected individual move: the back-heel, the step-over, a volley, an over-head kick, etc.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So if someone has 20 for flair then it just means that they will try fancy football more often, i.e. step-overs, back-heels etc, but it gives no indication of how good they are at actually doing it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well yes it could be called Vision. Just a different name I suppose. You could say the same about a lot of attributes. They all COULD be called something else.

Snoweel
26-01-2008, 07:59
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by James.Clench:
Then shouldn't creativity simply be called vision? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would probably be a better name for it, because that's exactly what Creativity is - vision.

The fact that there is a tactical slider called Creative Freedom just leads to confusion, imo, especially since Creative Freedom is closely linked to Flair.

As said above, Flair is the player's ability to do the spectacular; Creative Freedom is how often you want him to try it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So if someone has 20 for flair then it just means that they will try fancy football more often, i.e. step-overs, back-heels etc, but it gives no indication of how good they are at actually doing it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Other way around mate.

Though I've found players in FM will naturally be more likely to try the things they're good at and avoid the things they're poor at, regardless of your instructions.

Technique is a funny one - it seems to be like some kind of 'special bonus' that is added every time a player uses a technical skill. I'd say it is probably slightly more important than any of the other technical attributes.

James.Clench
26-01-2008, 09:01
OK Thanks, I think I'm starting to understand it all now. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

So if A player has 20 for flair and 1 for creativity then it would basically be a waste for this player to have such high flair, as they would have all the Ability to pull off something fancy, but they would never know when/where to do it. Basically like someone who is an incredable painter, but lacks the imagination to create a work of art. And vice versa would be a player who has all the creativity in the world, but simply is unable to pull it off successfully.

In this case I dont think creativity should be called vision, as it could refer to someone being creative but without passing. i.e. people might think (if creativity was called vision) that it only refered to a players ability to pick out a pass, rather than to have the vision to do a fancy dribble, or cruijff turn etc.

kenichan
26-01-2008, 11:19
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Reply </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
i think of it as like think of gerrard and lampard. both great attacking players. but would you consider them to have flair like cristiano ronaldo and kaka ?
i hope you see what i am getting at but i must admit im having a hard time finding the words to describe 'flair'.
i guess its just unpredictability, skill,talent, and just amazes people by the way they play. i would say c.ronaldo does this, but even gerrard, as good as he is doesnt really 'wow' me.

sjm
26-01-2008, 12:34
There was a guy I went to school with (who now actually plays professional lower league football in Italy), who loved to hog the ball. He'd get the ball, dribble past the entire opposing team 3 times, before losing the ball. He had great flair (lots of flashy tricks, difficult to read; if he DID score it was generally quite spectacular), great technique (would pull off what he was trying to do, even in awkward situations, had the ball under control), but had no creativity (never played a great pass to a free team mate or saw where to move to create a shot on goal) and no team work (team? what team? I can do it alone). Instead of creating opportunities with the aid of his talent, he'd just run around the entire pitch on his own until he lost the ball - and 19 times out of 20 it led to nothing, often actually resulting in him losing the ball near his own penalty area after he'd been up and down the entire pitch a few times. So yes, without creativity, his flair, dribbling, technique etc. were actually detrimental to the team. Playing against him was actually quite easy, because you didn't need to take the ball off him, just herd him somewhere where he wasn't a danger to your goal.

There was another guy who was the complete opposite (and actually turned down the offer to play professional football at his parents' insistence). He'd always play the correct pass to the man in a better position - even if that player was far less gifted and unable to do as much with the ball. He could be very creative, splitting defences with great passes, and did so to great effect. But I remember one match, we were losing 4-0 (despite playing the opponents off the pitch). From the kick-off after the fourth goal, he took the ball, dribbled past the entire opposing team, and slammed the ball in the net. He then headed straight back to the centre and continued as if nothing had happened. No one was expecting him to do anything of the kind. So he could definitely also turn on the flair when he wanted to. But not only was he extremely technically gifted and stylish with it, he had an excellent footballing mind. Willing to try the unexpected, but good enough not to do so to the detriment of the team.

So flair CAN be a double-edged sword in the wrong hands. What makes Ronaldo or Ronaldinho so special is that there is generally an end product after the fancy footwork - i.e. it's an end to a means, rather than being purely a case of showing off.

MaxEFunk
26-01-2008, 13:06
I believe 'flair' is also related to potential popularity with fans and higher flair players are more likely to fill up stadiums and perhaps generate more profit from merchandise.

Snoweel
26-01-2008, 16:46
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by James.Clench:
So if A player has 20 for flair and 1 for creativity then it would basically be a waste for this player to have such high flair, as they would have all the Ability to pull off something fancy, but they would never know when/where to do it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now I think you're confusing Creativity with Decisions. Creativity is either only to do with passing, or it mostly is.

Creativity is about being able to see opportunities, and it doesn't require Flair.

Some players can be very creative without being Flair-type players, like the English midfielders kenichan described.

So, a player with high Creativity would see a lot of opportunities for good passes. His Decisions would determine if he made the right pass in the situation and his Passing (aided by Technique) would determine where the ball landed in relation to the receiver.

He could do all this consistently without a high Flair attribute.

If he did have a high Flair attribute, this player would be able to do all this, but it would also possibly be a one-touch volleyed through ball. A low Flair attribute would preclude this kind of extravagant play, and the player would be more orthodox in his passing.

And like you pointed out, Flair is most often connected to a player's Dribbling attribute - stepovers, 360 turns, Cruijff turns, elasticos, etc.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In this case I dont think creativity should be called vision, as it could refer to someone being creative but without passing. i.e. people might think (if creativity was called vision) that it only refered to a players ability to pick out a pass, rather than to have the vision to do a fancy dribble, or cruijff turn etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well they're both situations where the player has used his vision aren't they?

James.Clench
26-01-2008, 17:43
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So, a player with high Creativity would see a lot of opportunities for good passes. His Decisions would determine if he made the right pass in the situation and his Passing (aided by Technique) would determine where the ball landed in relation to the receiver.

He could do all this consistently without a high Flair attribute.

If he did have a high Flair attribute, this player would be able to do all this, but it would also possibly be a one-touch volleyed through ball. A low Flair attribute would preclude this kind of extravagant play, and the player would be more orthodox in his passing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, if I read this right your saying a midfielder could still be world class, even with very little flair, yet the manual says "A player with a lot of flair will be one of the key attacking components in any team" which sounds like its very important to me.

James.Clench
26-01-2008, 17:54
I've just been on the editor and found that there are only 15 good midfielders (good = PA greater than 160, not including DMC's) who have a flair rating of between 1 and 10, so i'm thinking that flair is mighty important, rather than just extravegant play.

James.Clench
26-01-2008, 17:59
and nearly 350 good Midfielders with a rating of between 11 and 20 for flair

Snoweel
26-01-2008, 19:32
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by James.Clench:
So, if I read this right your saying a midfielder could still be world class, even with very little flair </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's exactly what I'm saying.

You verified it yourself - there are 15 good midfielders (not including DMC's who are midfielders) in the database with a Flair attribute below 11.

Bear in mind that you'll be lucky to find a world class player with any mental attribute below 11.

Note also that for a world class player even a score of 13 is relatively low.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">yet the manual says "A player with a lot of flair will be one of the key attacking components in any team" which sounds like its very important to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is. I play a 4-3-3 with wingers and I find Flair is a key attribute for those 2 attacking midfielders and the striker. They all have high creative freedom.

But the DM and MC's can all do their job quite well without a high Flair score.

Snoweel
26-01-2008, 19:36
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by James.Clench:
so i'm thinking that flair is mighty important, rather than just extravegant play. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

At the top levels, where defences are very well organised, extravagant play (and the players capable of performing it) is mighty important.

This is why the best teams (including teams that win the major cup competitions of the world) all have a couple of guys capable of creating something out of nothing.

If England ever manages to develop one of these guys they might win another world cup one day.

Sven-Goeran
25-03-2008, 07:09
This thread has been dead for a while, but i was wondering, I have a player (Per Broberg) who is a good passer, and he is one of the more creative in my team (Jönköpings södra), but he has very little flair, should I still give him alot of creative freedom?

postal postie
25-03-2008, 07:17
as far as i can see:

creativity: is the ability to create something out of nothing.

flair: is the ability to do something amazing which may create something out of nothing. tricks and such.

glamdring
25-03-2008, 07:36
To be honest it is very difficulty to take any individual attribute by itself and give a clear definition of what it means (unless you programmed the match engine!). Almost every attribute has others that are inextricably linked with it in order for it to be of use.

I tend to look for high flair and creativity in my creative playmaker midfielder so that it doesn't matter hugely which is responsible for what, but when I have a player with high flair and low creativity or vice versa it becomes a bit more tricky!

At Werder Bremen both Diego and Riquelme my AMCs have high flair and creativity so it's difficult to give any observations. One thing I have noticed though is the frequency with which Diego managed to play killer through balls for my striker to run onto. That definitely comes from his high Creativity, but includes a number of other attributes too. I don't know how complex the match engine is on that one as regards whether it takes account of Diego and the striker playing very well together so that he threads those through-balls knowing that the striker will make the run 9 times out of 10 and the striker makes the runs knowing that Diego will find the through-ball to exactly where he is running regularly. That involves another of attributes from both players as well as maybe some kind of relationship between the two - after all, it's the striker's run that makes a great through ball just that. Without the run it's just a ball played through for the opposing goalkeeper to come out and clear!

dudeface
25-03-2008, 08:02
martijn besselink a Goalkeeper who has a 20 for flair! WTF!? how is he meant to use his flair then? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

chopper99
25-03-2008, 08:05
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dudeface:
martijn besselink a Goalkeeper who has a 20 for flair! WTF!? how is he meant to use his flair then? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Think higuita, the crazy ex-colombian goalkeeper. He's a good example of a GK with a high flair attribute.

dudeface
25-03-2008, 08:08
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dudeface:
martijn besselink a Goalkeeper who has a 20 for flair! WTF!? how is he meant to use his flair then? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Think higuita, the crazy ex-colombian goalkeeper. He's a good example of a GK with a high flair attribute. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>who? he was probably(sp?) before my time.

amplifierworship
25-03-2008, 08:11
Something I've wondered about flair - I know it means players will try the unexpected, but is there anything to contribute whether they actually get it right or not?

chopper99
25-03-2008, 08:12
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dudeface:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dudeface:
martijn besselink a Goalkeeper who has a 20 for flair! WTF!? how is he meant to use his flair then? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Think higuita, the crazy ex-colombian goalkeeper. He's a good example of a GK with a high flair attribute. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>who? he was probably(sp?) before my time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yILDiU859FU)

chopper99
25-03-2008, 08:13
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by amplifierworship:
Something I've wondered about flair - I know it means players will try the unexpected, but is there anything to contribute whether they actually get it right or not? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Depending on what they're trying, whether they get it right will depend on attributes such as technique, passing, dribbling, decisions etc

Midge
25-03-2008, 08:18
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by James.Clench:
According to the manual Flair is defined as a player having a natural talent for the creative and occasional unpredictability. A player with a lot of flair will be one of the key attacking components in any team.

So basically does that mean a player with a lot of flair will be very good at being creative?

If thats the case, then whats the point of the creativity Attribute?

And If flair actually means how good a player is at confusing defenders with fancy step-overs, and beating players with cruijff turns, then whats the difference between flair and technique?

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Think of it in terms of players.

Kaka/Pirlo/Scoles are creative players, they can create chances for others out of no-where but I would not say any are flair players

People such as Henry/Pires/Torres/Ronaldo are players who have flair. Quick, creative and unpredictable.

dudeface
25-03-2008, 08:25
that...is so cool! i wonder if the gk that i mentioned could do that in fm!

chopper99
25-03-2008, 08:32
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dudeface:
that...is so cool! i wonder if the gk that i mentioned could do that in fm! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He probably does it all the time, you just can't tell http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

eggfwiedwice
25-03-2008, 09:59
Time for the trusty CM 01/02 manual again:

Flair (WOOOOO!): The ability of a player to improvise, pull off the unexpected or attempt the incredible. Essential ability for: Midfield and forward playing geniuses need only apply.

Creativity: How good a player is at fashioning openings and making chances for his side through making the key pass. Essential ability for: Attacking midfielders and those players with a free role.

Technique: The player's degree of competence and technical ability with the ball. Essential ability for: Players that are required to spend a large amount of time on the ball would benefit form a high value in this attribute.

glamdring
25-03-2008, 10:24
The ability of a player to...attempt the incredible? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I reckon even I could "attempt" the incredible and I have the footballing ability and flair of a cabbage!

Amaroq
25-03-2008, 11:26
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This thread has been dead for a while, but i was wondering, I have a player (Per Broberg) who is a good passer, and he is one of the more creative in my team (Jönköpings södra), but he has very little flair, should I still give him alot of creative freedom? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I've had success with that, yes.

For me, the key to "Creative Freedom" for a central midfielder is: high Creativity, high Decisions, high Anticipation, high Teamwork. I'm also likely to give such players high Through Balls and possibly also a Free Role, if they demonstrate that they can handle it.

I don't really consider "Flair" when deciding to allocate high Creative Freedom.

My creative central midfielders tend to contribute a lot of assists: my #3 MC this year picked up 8, despite starting really only when one of the first two was injured.

Sven-Goeran
25-03-2008, 11:48
Do you think you could check Per Broberg out and tell me if you think I should give him a free role in Jönköpings Södra?

Amaroq
25-03-2008, 12:29
He may not even be in my save-game, and I don't want to go wandering around the editor. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Its my understanding that there's a hidden "Free Role" rating, which I could see with the editor, but don't want to.

That's why I treat it as "experimental": I'll give the guy ten matches with the free role, and if it seems that that's "getting more out of him", and if I like where he's positioning himself on the pitch, then he'll keep the Free Role. If he's getting 6's, and I often find myself thinking "Where the **** do you think you're going?", then the Free Role isn't for him.