PDA

View Full Version : One rule for us and another for the AI.



Jimbokav1971
17-01-2008, 13:38
I'm managing in N.Ireland and I've recently become aware that my 4 biggest rivals, (Linfield, Glentoran Portadown and Distillery), are all signing up decent young players that are being released by Premiership English clubs.

Now like my team, none of them have yet turned pro, and as such, (if it's the same as FM07), then none of them should be able to scout outside N.Ireland. How then can they be signing players from a Nation within which they are unable to scout?

I stoppes playing in the English structure because of the unrealistic feeder relations of my competitors and although this doesn't cause me the same problems in terms of difficulty, it is annoying nevertheless.

If this is a route that SI have gone down on purpose, then maybe someone who has the ear of the powers at be might want to have a word.

If this is representative of AI transfer policy accross the board then it's a significantly backward step for the LLM game.

Distillery. 8 young players on the books released by Premiership clubs.

Glentoran. 2 young players on the books released by Premiership clubs.

Linfield. 7 young players on the books released by Premiership clubs.

Portadown. 6 young players on the books released by Premiership clubs.

Jimbokav1971
17-01-2008, 13:38
I'm managing in N.Ireland and I've recently become aware that my 4 biggest rivals, (Linfield, Glentoran Portadown and Distillery), are all signing up decent young players that are being released by Premiership English clubs.

Now like my team, none of them have yet turned pro, and as such, (if it's the same as FM07), then none of them should be able to scout outside N.Ireland. How then can they be signing players from a Nation within which they are unable to scout?

I stoppes playing in the English structure because of the unrealistic feeder relations of my competitors and although this doesn't cause me the same problems in terms of difficulty, it is annoying nevertheless.

If this is a route that SI have gone down on purpose, then maybe someone who has the ear of the powers at be might want to have a word.

If this is representative of AI transfer policy accross the board then it's a significantly backward step for the LLM game.

Distillery. 8 young players on the books released by Premiership clubs.

Glentoran. 2 young players on the books released by Premiership clubs.

Linfield. 7 young players on the books released by Premiership clubs.

Portadown. 6 young players on the books released by Premiership clubs.

freek_teek
17-01-2008, 13:52
Is it possible to sign english players, without using scouting, by using the search screen??

Regarding the feeder relations in England, I know you play by LLM guidelines, but a lot of players don't. And if most of the players use it than the AI would handicap itself by not using it. Maybe it's the same with your problem in Northern Ireland.

It's just a tought, and I'm not sure if that's what happening.

Jimbokav1971
17-01-2008, 14:02
Apologies.

This was meant to be posted in LLM.

Sorryhttp://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif.

Gypsum
17-01-2008, 14:03
Just because your chairman won't pay for you to send scouts on expensive trips, doesn't mean you can't sign foreign players. It just means that you won't be able to give the players a once over before you sign them.

The AI only has an advantage because you aren't using all avenues available to you.

RSCA4Ever
17-01-2008, 14:04
Might be so that they signed them first on trial before giving them a contract.
Could also be that they have an English citizen in staff.
Did other teams also signed English players or only your rivals?
To be sure you could always save your game and create a new manager and take over one of those teams to check where you can scout.

happy slappy
17-01-2008, 14:05
Jimbo doesn't use the player search screen, he (and I for that matter) play by the rules and guidelines in the LLM forum, so we only use our scouts to find new players.

Jimbokav1971
17-01-2008, 14:07
Sorry guys.

This question really wasn't meant for GQ http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

RSCA4Ever
17-01-2008, 14:10
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by happy slappy:
Jimbo doesn't use the player search screen, he (and I for that matter) play by the rules and guidelines in the LLM forum, so we only use our scouts to find new players. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AI obviously doesn't. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Amaroq
17-01-2008, 14:44
Its an appropriate discussion for GQ, though, Jimbokav. No harm done.

Here's a question: if you click on a Premiership club, find their transactions, and find "players released" .. can you scout the player from the player screen? (E.g., have a coach or scout give an assessment?)

That might still be counter to the LLM ethos, but it might be different from sending a scout out to trawl the entirety of England?

Jimbokav1971
17-01-2008, 14:47
No. You can't scout these players at all.

It's experienced players at the end of their careers too.

Just doesn't ring true.

DS
17-01-2008, 16:40
I dont see this is a problem because you choose to play the game the most difficult and perhaps most realistic way but the AI doesnt so they can sign these players.

Jimbokav1971
17-01-2008, 16:42
That's a fair point http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif.

Amaroq
17-01-2008, 16:46
Last question - is it possible that their attributes are unmasked, for some reason?

For example, an experienced player at the end of a Premiership career might be considered high enough Reputation that he's no longer fog-of-warred?

Now, that many players with that kind reputation moving to Northern Ireland sounds like a problem in its own right .. but at least it wouldn't be a scouting issue! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

fonz
17-01-2008, 16:59
Well there is something unrealistic going on there. Plenty of former English youth players end up in Northern Irish football, usually at a slightly older age (24,25) when they've failed in England.I know my local club Larne have signed a few in the last couple of years. So etheir they do go to watch players in England (not that expensive but not being professional or employing scouts per se I doubt they do) or managers and coaches use their own knowledge to offer players trails and eventully contacts. Larne has had players that actully lived in Scotland and England whilst playing for the club. If you want realism I don't think only using scouts is the way to at this level.

Snoweel
17-01-2008, 22:44
That LLM rule regarding not using the player search screen is stupid.

I mean, what's the point of having scouting knowledge if you can't use it? That's what the player search screen represents - scouting knowledge.

Sure there's no register of unemployed players IRL but every club has a body of knowledge based on their non-playing staff and all it takes is to keep up-to-date with sports news websites to know which players are available. It's like that IRL, it should be like that in the game too.

Jimbokav1971
18-01-2008, 01:06
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Snoweel:
That LLM rule regarding not using the player search screen is stupid.

I mean, what's the point of having scouting knowledge if you can't use it? That's what the player search screen represents - scouting knowledge.

Sure there's no register of unemployed players IRL but every club has a body of knowledge based on their non-playing staff and all it takes is to keep up-to-date with sports news websites to know which players are available. It's like that IRL, it should be like that in the game too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It'e not completely realistic I grant you, but it's a damn sight more realistic than having players from the likes of Turks & Caicos Islands, Barbados, and any plethora of small nations on the other side of the World in your scouting knowledge when you are a lowly manager of a Conference South team and have no foreign staff.

Now THAT is stupid.

mattbuck
18-01-2008, 01:56
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Snoweel:
That LLM rule regarding not using the player search screen is stupid.

I mean, what's the point of having scouting knowledge if you can't use it? That's what the player search screen represents - scouting knowledge.

Sure there's no register of unemployed players IRL but every club has a body of knowledge based on their non-playing staff and all it takes is to keep up-to-date with sports news websites to know which players are available. It's like that IRL, it should be like that in the game too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It'e not completely realistic I grant you, but it's a damn sight more realistic than having players from the likes of Turks & Caicos Islands, Barbados, and any plethora of small nations on the other side of the World in your scouting knowledge when you are a lowly manager of a Conference South team and have no foreign staff.

Now THAT is stupid. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have found that will happen when you have a player/or staff member that has a split nationality, or has played for a foreign team at some point in their careers, thus they have a small knowledge of that country, thus giving you a few player to potentially sign. No problems there i dont think.

glamdring
18-01-2008, 02:07
I'm pretty sure lists of players released from Premiership clubs exist in real life. Getting in touch with these players' agents and offering them a trial is hardly rocket science either! Whether it is "realistic" or not that they would sign for Northern Irish clubs is another matter, but I tend to find this is a problem generally with an active league picking up loads of such players, esp. if the English league itself is not active.

I stopped visiting the LLM forum because they work with a fairly fixed idea of what is "realistic" whereas I prefer to use my own idea of realism.

Jimbokav1971
18-01-2008, 02:49
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I have found that will happen when you have a player/or staff member that has a split nationality, or has played for a foreign team at some point in their careers, thus they have a small knowledge of that country, thus giving you a few player to potentially sign. No problems there i dont think. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If it only happened in that instance then I would agree with you.

Unfortunately it happens even when a club has not a single foreign member of staff of any sort.

The search engine for FM08 is a significant improvement on FM07 but is still a long way off reality.

glamdring.

Not everyone in LLM plays the game in exactly the same way and some are more "flexible" in terms of realism than others.

Yo each their own though.

Imperius
18-01-2008, 03:53
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Snoweel:
That LLM rule regarding not using the player search screen is stupid.

I mean, what's the point of having scouting knowledge if you can't use it? That's what the player search screen represents - scouting knowledge.

Sure there's no register of unemployed players IRL but every club has a body of knowledge based on their non-playing staff and all it takes is to keep up-to-date with sports news websites to know which players are available. It's like that IRL, it should be like that in the game too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


When a player is released the FA circulates their details to every club. Ditto transfer listed players.

Imperius
18-01-2008, 03:54
I was referring to the real world, by the way.

Barside
18-01-2008, 04:01
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Imperius:
When a player is released the FA circulates their details to every club. Ditto transfer listed players. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd be surprised if the FA do this, I have heard Gordon Taylor talking about an informal scheme the PFA operates that tries to put free agents in contact with nearby clubs to where they live much like a recruitment agency.

Jimbokav1971
18-01-2008, 04:02
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Imperius:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Snoweel:
That LLM rule regarding not using the player search screen is stupid.

I mean, what's the point of having scouting knowledge if you can't use it? That's what the player search screen represents - scouting knowledge.

Sure there's no register of unemployed players IRL but every club has a body of knowledge based on their non-playing staff and all it takes is to keep up-to-date with sports news websites to know which players are available. It's like that IRL, it should be like that in the game too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


When a player is released the FA circulates their details to every club. Ditto transfer listed players. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But that's the English FA.

The Turks & Caiocos Isles FA, (or whatever), doesn't tell my Conference South side that it's got 27 17 year olds available on a free does it?

glamdring
18-01-2008, 04:08
I've never found such players in my player search screen unless I have a coach/scout with knowledge of that country. Mind you, I don't use the Player Search screen that often anyway. Not so much through some desire to be realistic (although partly that) as because I can't be bothered.

More fun just to send my scouts out to various places with a remit to find players under 23 for me and then I can look through the reports. Although of course I find, after signing 4 scouts, that in Iceland of course the only place I can scout is Iceland http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Maybe I had a higher club rep in FM06 when I scouted Scandinavia with Grindavik or more likely it has just been tightened up a lot since. I'd quite like a 100% Icelandic team (infact a 100% Akranes born team) though so I guess it doesn't matter http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jimbokav1971
18-01-2008, 04:12
glamdring. You sound stricter than a lot of LLaMmas http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

RSCA4Ever
18-01-2008, 04:13
Belgian division 3 teams also attract French and Dutch players i now noticed myself. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Could it be that the AI is taking risks?

glamdring
18-01-2008, 04:34
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
glamdring. You sound stricter than a lot of LLaMmas http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, not really. That is just one idealistic type of game that I like. My main reason for leaving LLM forum was because I like to play different savegames in different styles. Some I like to jump in and start managing in the SPL or Championship or EPL straight off and pick up players using whatever in-game means are available to me (without adding extra managers just to get me extra players or more money etc obviously). Other games I like to play in an LLM style.

When I said that in the LLM forum once it was regarded as a deadly sin that I should use non-LLM methods in any of my save games because it corrupts me entirely http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

DonnyNoel
18-01-2008, 04:56
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Barside wrote
quote:
Originally posted by Imperius:
When a player is released the FA circulates their details to every club. Ditto transfer listed players.


I'd be surprised if the FA do this, I have heard Gordon Taylor talking about an informal scheme the PFA operates that tries to put free agents in contact with nearby clubs to where they live much like a recruitment agency. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Similar to this, the Premier League exit trials would be a nice feature for people playing LLM in England, although it wouldnt affect Jimbob in this case.

Jimbokav1971
18-01-2008, 05:20
glamdring. I think that makes you a schizollama http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Aario
18-01-2008, 05:24
Jimbo

I am playing in the Dafuge Challenge and I have not seen all the "Islanders" appear on my player search screen. My scouting knowledge is British Isles, a bit of French and Dutch (from an Irish and English coach respectively) and half a bar of Zimbabwe and South Africa from my Zimbabwean Physio!

However, similar to your "AI advantage" in Northern Ireland when I look at my next opposition it appears that about half of the other teams in the BSP and League 2 have an Islander on the books. A check of the players history always reveals that he has not played for any other club and was signed on a free.

Not really sure what my point is here!! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Just thought I would share my experiences.

boneykingofnowhere
18-01-2008, 05:34
Ive had the same problem playing in Portugal where clubs of similar or smaller size are always snapping up players young and old from Brazil when i cannot scout there.

Sir_Liam
18-01-2008, 05:44
I'm having a similar problem on my FM2007 game in Norway. I'm playing as Hammerfest, and having won 4 out of the last 5 titles, and being on the way to another, alongside some excellent results in Europe, it's fair to say I'm the biggest club in Norway at the moment, as well as having by far the best team.

I can only scout in Europe though, so really the other Norwegian sides should only be able to do the same. Instead though they're forever signing good young talents from South America and Africa whose attributes I can't see. There is no way they'd be capable of scouting there, and they don't offer trials, so how are they aware of these players abilities? Yet another flaw in the AI.

glamdring
18-01-2008, 05:59
One other strange thing I have noticed while managing in Iceland is that all the Icelandic coaches or scouts I sign also have knowledge of Serbia! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Aario
18-01-2008, 06:04
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by glamdring:
One other strange thing I have noticed while managing in Iceland is that all the Icelandic coaches or scouts I sign also have knowledge of Serbia! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are a few nationalilites which seem to give knowledge of places you would not expect. A few people have commented on this in the dafgue challenge thread although I cannot remember the details at the moment.

Gripper
18-01-2008, 06:53
Hi jimbokav.

Thanks for posting this - there is a database field that I can amend to help reduce the propensity of N Irish clubs to sign English players, in the nations part of the db,and I will advise the N Ireland HR Mark to look at it. That should have the effect to reduce the instances you have described.

Jimbokav1971
18-01-2008, 08:06
Thanks for the reply Gripper.

Appreciate it http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif.

niresearch
18-01-2008, 08:51
Hi Jimbo,

As Gripper says, he flagged this issue up to me and it's hopefully been addressed now database wise.

Cheers for the info, wish more people took an interest in playing the irish leagues in FM - and give this sort of constructive feedback on them http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

Jimbokav1971
18-01-2008, 09:10
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by niresearch:
Hi Jimbo,

As Gripper says, he flagged this issue up to me and it's hopefully been addressed now database wise.

Cheers for the info, wish more people took an interest in playing the irish leagues in FM - and give this sort of constructive feedback on them http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

With the popularity of the Gundo challenge soaring, and N.Ireland being one of the more popular choices, I think N.Ireland is fast becoming a "fashionable" choice. Maybe it's the "couple" of Cup competitions they have http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

You might want to have a little glance in the Gundo thread every now and then. (It's basically the dafuge challenge with a team from a small nation rather than England and a number of people have got pretty far already with teams from N.Ireland.

Cheers anyway http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif.

endtime
18-01-2008, 10:24
The "islanders" appear on the player search screen because they have English as a 2nd nationality; apparently if you have a full bar of "England" knowledge every single player in the game with an English passport (an abstraction) will come up on the search screen.

Nobby_McDonald
18-01-2008, 12:46
Endtime, not one person in the whole world has an English passport.

arrogantio
18-01-2008, 12:46
To be fair, it's probably not beyond the means of semi-pro Northern Irish clubs to identify, approach and offer trials to released Premiership players without sending scouts to look at them. Of course, the trial itself isn't simulated in FM because of the processing overheads involved in constantly having AI players on trial, but it's a reasonable assumption that that's what would be going on in the real life equivalent of this scenario

Barside
18-01-2008, 13:13
Have to disagree with you arrogantio, lets say you're a 19 yr old player just released by Fulham, as an academy player all your family live in West London are you realy going to consider signing a p/t contract from a club in N.Ireland?

Consider the situation, you have to move for a wage of no more that say £75pw & also find a day job just to make ends meet you're just not going to move, instead you would try & find a club in London. It is this aspect of real life which I feel should be simulated in the game.

endtime
18-01-2008, 22:55
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nobby_McDonald:
Endtime, not one person in the whole world has an English passport. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know, which is why I wrote the "an abstraction" comment. I assume that everyone born in British overseas territories is automatically eligible for British nationality. The game simplifies this by giving players from such places an English 2nd nationality by default, a sort of a "footballing passport".

Powermonger
18-01-2008, 23:39
This is where FM needs a football club atlas I feel to help illustrate scounting regions more, especially for LLM. I dont feel scouting should be limited down to borders but distance from the club.

I'm currently playing Bath City, it doesn't seem logical to me that I can scout the whole of England right up to the Scottish border but can't travel a couple of hundred kilometres to scout into Wales.

N^G
19-01-2008, 01:14
Ignoring llm rules, the player actually always has the advantage over the AI in signing frees in the database depending on how much patience they have in terms of clicking names to see their attributes. Just type "no club" into the search box and you will get everyone thats on a free regardless of whether you should know about them or not!