Goalkeeping stats - do they actually mean anything at all?

I am completely lost when it comes to good goal keepers. The ones i buy with reflexes 19 and handling 20 are crap. However, my opposition's keeper with reflexes 2 and less common sense than a toaster can save all of my strikers shots easily. Has anyone experienced this too?

I am completely lost when it comes to good goal keepers. The ones i buy with reflexes 19 and handling 20 are crap. However, my opposition's keeper with reflexes 2 and less common sense than a toaster can save all of my strikers shots easily. Has anyone experienced this too?

There are more stats than handling and refelexs remember.

If its stupid things your goalkeeper is doing consider eccentricity- your keeper may make an outstanding save but this can also make him make silly mistakes

i know there are more stats, but i've seen keepers with great attributes across all 3 sections be out-played by keepers with rubbush attributes so many times.

Again, I keep saying it, bit whar are your Tactics like, team talks, morale, fitness etc etc. Play 3 at the back or 4 etc etc? Also as legend said, positioning, jumping, bravery etc etc.

But ultimatly, FM keepers are a lot like real life keepers, some great, some crazy, some bad, some amazing one week, wouldnt get into a BSN teams reserves the next week lol.

Maybe it's not the goalie thats the problem but the defence.

The goalie might be the best in the world, but if his defence is a shambles, then he's going to be in for a hard time.

Maybe the tactics you've set up for him aren't helping, leaving him to far forward/back, or preventing him to close down at the bets oppurtunities.

Tactics?

Stand in goal. Stop shots.

Wow so complex.

C'mon, are you saying that if your tactics is wrong it doesnt matter if your gk is buffon or paul robinson?

I believe it's the contrary...

The "it's your tactic" argument sometimes is over-rated.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Johnnyyen:

C'mon, are you saying that if your tactics is wrong it doesnt matter if your gk is buffon or paul robinson?

I believe it's the contrary...

The "it's your tactic" argument sometimes is over-rated. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course it can have an effect. If your defence is pushing up the pitch and you tell your keeper to stay back at all costs then it's bound to cause problems. If a quick keeper like Torres breaks your defence and you've told your keeper to basically stay on your line, then he's going to be in trouble, whether he's Buffon or Bevan.

If tactical settings had no point for a goalie, they simply wouldn't be there for you to change.

Johnny, then to that I would say you are somehow who truly does not understand the concept of 'tactics' within FM08. Tactics are more than just your formation. This is most in depth version of FM there has ever been. Team Talks are now just as important as your formation and players. Thats just one area. And lest give this scenario. You have a team that plays 3 at the back with a wonder keeper. And you have a team that plays 4 at the back with 2 Def Mids and avg keeper. I can tell you now that the team with the 4 at the back and 3 Def Mids will generally concede fewer goals (Providing all players are of equal ability). Is that not logical to you?

So yes it makes one hell of a difference, add in morale, fitness and numerous other factors, so even if you have the best keeper in the game, it does not mean he will save most shots.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bongo-Bongo:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Johnnyyen:

C'mon, are you saying that if your tactics is wrong it doesnt matter if your gk is buffon or paul robinson?

I believe it's the contrary...

The "it's your tactic" argument sometimes is over-rated. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course it can have an effect. If your defence is pushing up the pitch and you tell your keeper to stay back at all costs then it's bound to cause problems. If a quick striker like Torres breaks your defence and you've told your keeper to basically stay on your line, then he's going to be in trouble, whether he's Buffon or Bevan.

If tactical settings had no point for a goalie, they simply wouldn't be there for you to change. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Corrected

A good keeper is a match winner and unfourtunately it can be very hard to tell a good one from a mediocre one. Agility is important, as is concentration and decisions. Eccentricity basically tells you how likely it is that your keepers going to wander of with the ball ala grobelaar. (unless things have been changed) Unfourtunately one of the absoloute key ones is invisible, consistancy because if a striker has a bad game you can just sub him. If a keeper has a bad game chances are your going to be 1 or 2 down before you know about it.

To those mentioning tactics as an explanation I say this. Fair enough tactical settings are in the game for a reason so they must do something.

But once the ball leaves the shot takers foot tactics are irrelevant and attributes plus morale (i.e. confidence) are everything.

So whether or not Goalkeeper A makes a save or Goalkeeper B makes a save has sweet FA to do with tactics. It has everything to do with player ability and morale plus the random element of the game.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by isuckatfm:

To those mentioning tactics as an explanation I say this. Fair enough tactical settings are in the game for a reason so they must do something.

But once the ball leaves the shot takers foot tactics are irrelevant and attributes plus morale (i.e. confidence) are everything.

So whether or not Goalkeeper A makes a save or Goalkeeper B makes a save has sweet FA to do with tactics. It has everything to do with player ability and morale plus the random element of the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats very true, but the build up to when the striker pulls the trigger will be influenced by the tactical settings you give your goalie, as well as his attributes. Things such as how quickly he rushes out to face the striker, or how far off his line he stands can all be influenced by tactics. If you get these wrong, then your goalie might find himself in a harder situation then need be.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It has everything to do with player ability and morale plus the random element of the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not everything. By saying that its irrelevent how good the player is taking the shot. If its a striker, is he a better striker than the keeper is a keeper? How many times do you hear in commentaries that 'no kepper in the world would have stopped that' ?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bongo-Bongo:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by isuckatfm:

To those mentioning tactics as an explanation I say this. Fair enough tactical settings are in the game for a reason so they must do something.

But once the ball leaves the shot takers foot tactics are irrelevant and attributes plus morale (i.e. confidence) are everything.

So whether or not Goalkeeper A makes a save or Goalkeeper B makes a save has sweet FA to do with tactics. It has everything to do with player ability and morale plus the random element of the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats very true, but the build up to when the striker pulls the trigger will be influenced by the tactical settings you give your goalie, as well as his attributes. Things such as how quickly he rushes out to face the striker, or how far off his line he stands can all be influenced by tactics. If you get these wrong, then your goalie might find himself in a harder situation then need be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just want to add to this that the tactical settings for goalies are by no means as important to him doing his job as it is for other positions on the pitch, if they aren't good enough, you may find you your goalie failing to react to balls into the box, or out of position.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">originally posted by Bongo-Bongo:-

Thats very true, but the build up to when the striker pulls the trigger will be influenced by the tactical settings you give your goalie, as well as his attributes. Things such as how quickly he rushes out to face the striker, or how far off his line he stands can all be influenced by tactics. If you get these wrong, then your goalie might find himself in a harder situation then need be.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fair point.

But I still don't believe it should be in the game in this manner as everything you described are fundamentally goalkeeping ability related. Where he positions himself when the opposition are in possession should be about positioning and positioning only. The sweeper keeper thing might be something managers instruct their keepers to do but I really don't see them telling the keeper to close down or make forward runs.

TBH I think it' alot like the way when you look at goalkeeper stats and see goals scored and assists. It's in there because it facilitates the lay out rather than being necessary.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Not everything. By saying that its irrelevent how good the player is taking the shot. If its a striker, is he a better striker than the keeper is a keeper? How many times do you hear in commentaries that 'no kepper in the world would have stopped that' ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's not what I said. I said once the ball leaves the shot takers foot. There is a difference. Once the ball leaves his foot it's trajectory and speed are set and whether or not the keeper saves it is down to his ability/confidence alone (plus whether or not he's unsighted).

I probably should have explained what I meant better.

In any case none of it explains what the OP was describing which I think is a combination of the random element in the game and the snowball effect of morale.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by isuckatfm:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">originally posted by Bongo-Bongo:-

Thats very true, but the build up to when the striker pulls the trigger will be influenced by the tactical settings you give your goalie, as well as his attributes. Things such as how quickly he rushes out to face the striker, or how far off his line he stands can all be influenced by tactics. If you get these wrong, then your goalie might find himself in a harder situation then need be.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fair point.

But I still don't believe it should be in the game in this manner as everything you described are fundamentally goalkeeping ability related. Where he positions himself when the opposition are in possession should be about positioning and positioning only. The sweeper keeper thing might be something managers instruct their keepers to do but I really don't see them telling the keeper to close down or make forward runs.

TBH I think it' alot like the way when you look at goalkeeper stats and see goals scored and assists. It's in there because it facilitates the lay out rather than being necessary. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you that goalkeeping tactics should not be in the game in this manner, as it certainly isn't logical, well at least IMO. Much fewer options on closing down and mentallity would make much more sense for a goalie as they really don't need the broad spectrum that they currently have. About three different options would be sufficient.

For a real life situation od how tactics can affect what happens, I will use myself. When I was younger, I use to play in goal before being switched to a winger/striker. I played for two teams, a local under 12's and the school team. The manager of the under 12's I played for was an idiot. He use to shout at me regularly if I dared venture much of my line, even with players running at me. This lead to a barrage of goals. My school PE teacher however encouraged me to venture off my line more, which resulted in me stiffling more attacks at then I was playing for my local side.

Anyway, as I don't really feel there is much more for me to say, I will finish off by going back to the OP's post and saying that the attributes are the most important part of a goalies game, and can make the difference between a win, lose or draw, there are offer factors that need to be considered, such as morale, team talks, his own hidden attributes and both the team and individual tactical settings.

It's not difficult to understand.

It is NOT just a case of "when a shot leaves a players foot, it's down to the goalkeeper's attributes to save it". Absolutely not.

It's your general tactics. It's about what sort of shot the striker made. Whether he was being rushed by your defence or whether he had a clear strike. Whether your goalkeeper had come out to narrow the angle (goalkeeper's tactics). Whether your goalkeeper was high on confidence to make a good save, or whether he was low on confidence and more error prone (like Robinson). Whether the striker was shooting with his preferred foot, and how close he was. Whether the defence was too deep and unsighting the goalkeeper.

It might even be a case of your goalkeeper thinking your central defender is going to head it away, so he leaves it and a striker nips in and shoots and scores - catching the goalkeeper switching off for a second.

It could be absolutely anything and a lot is down to your team's tactics, your goalkeeper's individual tactics and the instructions you set for your defenders and midfielders (and even strikers when defending set pieces).

If the goalkeeper has good attributes, then he is more likely to make good saves, and control his defence better and generally keep more clean sheets but it is by no means a guarantee and can depend on a million things.

Put Van Der Sar in a League Two side - he'll conceded 70 goals a season. Put Van Der Sar in Man United's team, and he'll concede 20 a season.

@ DamianY2J

Since you more or less quoted what I said I'm going to assume that your post was directed at me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> It is NOT just a case of "when a shot leaves a players foot, it's down to the goalkeeper's attributes to save it". Absolutely not.

It's your general tactics. It's about what sort of shot the striker made. Whether he was being rushed by your defence or whether he had a clear strike. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes this affects the quality of the shot but again once it leaves his foot all of what happened before is irrelevant.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Whether your goalkeeper had come out to narrow the angle (goalkeeper's tactics). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes this is part of FM tactics but has nothing to do with real life goalkeeping. A goalkeepers anticipation, decisions and positioning will affect whether or not he comes out to narrow the angle. If the manager has instructed him to act as a sweeper keeper (or if it's part of his natural tendency) then in certain scenarios like a quick counter attack this will affect his ability to narrow the angle as it shortens the space between him and the striker who broke through the line. Other than that it's irrelevant.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Whether the defence was too deep and unsighting the goalkeeper. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you read my post you will see that I did mention confidence and being unsighted as factors. But citing tactics as a cause of a keeper being unsighted? Tactically you want your team behind the ball and attempting to block shots if you are playing deep. A keeper being unsighted is either unlucky because of how the scenario played out(someone crossed his line of vision)or because the keeper was poorly positioned in the first place.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Whether the striker was shooting with his preferred foot, and how close he was. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Affects the trajectory and speed of the shot, but as I said once the shot leaves the player's foot these two elements are set. Whether or not a keeper saves it has to do with his ability. How close the striker was matters in the context of the keeper's ability. A top quality keeper with great reflexes is more likely to save a close range effort than a keeper who looks like he's got concrete in his boots.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> It might even be a case of your goalkeeper thinking your central defender is going to head it away, so he leaves it and a striker nips in and shoots and scores - catching the goalkeeper switching off for a second.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's poor judgement by the keeper and has nothing to do with tactics. Yes tactics may have lead to the scenario but it is the goalkeeper's decision (i.e. his attributes) that created the consequences.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It could be absolutely anything and a lot is down to your team's tactics, your goalkeeper's individual tactics and the instructions you set for your defenders and midfielders (and even strikers when defending set pieces).

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't dispute that tactics lead to the chance. If there are no defenders in a position to block the shot then once the chance is created all that matters is the quality of the shot and the quality of the keeper.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> It's not difficult to understand.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is it necessary to be such a condescending twat? You could have presented your argument without using a statement that reads like 'I know everything and you are all idiots' as it's starting point.

My opinion on choosing a 'keeper is to focus on his weaknesses rather than his strengths. You can have really good stats in every area but one, and still concede loads of goals. If you've got a keeper who's slow off his line you'll concede to balls in behind your defence. If you've got a 'keeper with a low aerial ability you'll concede to corners and crosses. It's not like in other positions where players can make up for their weaknesses with strengths - eg: a defender with poor positioning making up for it because he has enough pace to recover.

When I look for keepers I'm looking for someone who my scouts tell me "doesn't have any real weaknesses", and then which one of those has the most stars. I'd rather sign a four star 'keeper who was a good all rounder than a six star 'keeper whose "main weakness is his inabilty to be in the right place at the right time".

I once had a keeper with 20 Reflexes, One on ones and Composure.

At the time, my defence was conceding about a penalty a match, but he saved almost all of them.

It was brilliant.

Even when he was fading, I'd keep him at least on the bench for cup and european matches, just in case.