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View Full Version : Why are these players not selected for international duty? (Billy Sharp and co)



Reider84
21-01-2008, 12:46
It increases to susprise me that various players despite playing in the top leagues, performing very well, being transferred for large fees are not considered good enough to play for their international teams.

I have a few examples of where players have done well but haven't even been called up to the squad. Here are a few examples.

The most obvious example is Billy Sharp. He has regularly scored goals in the premiership for Sheffield United, bagging 30+ a lot of the time. Sheffield United continued to finish in mid table, he has now moved to Arsenal and done well there. Sheffield United have now been relegated the same season Billy left. Despite all of this Billy Sharp has not made a single squad, all picked by Steve McLaren, this is about 8 seasons in.

http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/euro2004/fm/sharp1.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/euro2004/fm/sharp2.jpg

The next prime example is Edison Cavani, one of the most deadliest strikers of his time. He's done it in Serie A and now after a big money transfer he is doing it in Spain where Athletico have won 3 of the last 4 titles. Still the lad can't get a callup for Uruguay even those the strikers who are regularly picked are well below his standard.

http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/euro2004/fm/cavani1.jpg

http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/euro2004/fm/cavani2.jpg

These examples are not quite as extreme but still should probably be considered for international selection.

Menez, big money transfers, does well in Serie A yet hasn't been called up to the international squad in years, the only 2 times he was when he was having a poor season.

http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/euro2004/fm/menez1.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/euro2004/fm/menez2.jpg

Zarate has done fantastically well in the premiership and now playing for Valenica, still he can't get a look in for the Argentina squad.

http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/euro2004/fm/zarate1.jpg

Zapater a regular Sevilla, and for Man Utd, now moved on to Real Madrid. Involved in a lot of big money moves, always done fairly well for a defensive midfielder, but no callup to the Spain squad.
http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/euro2004/fm/zapater1.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/euro2004/fm/zapater2.jpg

Ben Arfa, regularly playing for Barcelona, done well for Lyon before that, been there a long time now and still not a callup for France. His only cap came IRL and was already included in the game.

http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/euro2004/fm/benarfa1.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/euro2004/fm/benarfa2.jpg

There are a lot of other good examples but its fairly time consuming and I think this shows enough that perhaps too much is based on reputation perhaps or maybe CA when international squads are picked. It defintely does not seem to take into account current form.

What are other peoples views? I know others have noticed Billy Sharp doing well yet never being selected above the likes of Bent, Ashton and Defoe, all of whom don't always perform that well for England.

Reider84
21-01-2008, 12:46
It increases to susprise me that various players despite playing in the top leagues, performing very well, being transferred for large fees are not considered good enough to play for their international teams.

I have a few examples of where players have done well but haven't even been called up to the squad. Here are a few examples.

The most obvious example is Billy Sharp. He has regularly scored goals in the premiership for Sheffield United, bagging 30+ a lot of the time. Sheffield United continued to finish in mid table, he has now moved to Arsenal and done well there. Sheffield United have now been relegated the same season Billy left. Despite all of this Billy Sharp has not made a single squad, all picked by Steve McLaren, this is about 8 seasons in.

http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/euro2004/fm/sharp1.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/euro2004/fm/sharp2.jpg

The next prime example is Edison Cavani, one of the most deadliest strikers of his time. He's done it in Serie A and now after a big money transfer he is doing it in Spain where Athletico have won 3 of the last 4 titles. Still the lad can't get a callup for Uruguay even those the strikers who are regularly picked are well below his standard.

http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/euro2004/fm/cavani1.jpg

http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/euro2004/fm/cavani2.jpg

These examples are not quite as extreme but still should probably be considered for international selection.

Menez, big money transfers, does well in Serie A yet hasn't been called up to the international squad in years, the only 2 times he was when he was having a poor season.

http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/euro2004/fm/menez1.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/euro2004/fm/menez2.jpg

Zarate has done fantastically well in the premiership and now playing for Valenica, still he can't get a look in for the Argentina squad.

http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/euro2004/fm/zarate1.jpg

Zapater a regular Sevilla, and for Man Utd, now moved on to Real Madrid. Involved in a lot of big money moves, always done fairly well for a defensive midfielder, but no callup to the Spain squad.
http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/euro2004/fm/zapater1.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/euro2004/fm/zapater2.jpg

Ben Arfa, regularly playing for Barcelona, done well for Lyon before that, been there a long time now and still not a callup for France. His only cap came IRL and was already included in the game.

http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/euro2004/fm/benarfa1.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/euro2004/fm/benarfa2.jpg

There are a lot of other good examples but its fairly time consuming and I think this shows enough that perhaps too much is based on reputation perhaps or maybe CA when international squads are picked. It defintely does not seem to take into account current form.

What are other peoples views? I know others have noticed Billy Sharp doing well yet never being selected above the likes of Bent, Ashton and Defoe, all of whom don't always perform that well for England.

Reider84
21-01-2008, 12:47
Sorry, the second screenshot for Zarate is:

http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/euro2004/fm/zarate2.jpg

postal postie
21-01-2008, 12:50
maybe countrys pick depended on CA rather than performance. where as clubs are more likely to look for performance just as much? what are the actual PA/CA of these players you've detailed.

carlos1879
21-01-2008, 13:03
Look at their stats though is Billy Sharp really better than the likes of Rooney I agree someone playing that well would get into the squad at least but I Think this game just looks at their attributes not form if Rooney is playing terrible game in game out but Sharp is kicking bum it will still pick Rooney because he is the best player in the AI's eyes.

Reider84
21-01-2008, 13:17
Well out of interest the CA(PA) of each player is below.

Sharp 161 (165)
Cavani 179(180)
Menez 176(180)
Zarate 168(171)
Zapater 173(174)
Ben Arfa 176(185)


But what I'm trying to say is that IRL players do not have a CA and PA that managers pay attention to, they pureley pick players on what they may have done in the past to a large extent but also will pick players on current form, at least in the squad.

So in the game the players with great form over a long period should at least be included in the international squads. How could anyone argue with Billy Sharps record at the highest level?

VonBlade
21-01-2008, 13:33
Obviously I don't know but my general feeling is that it sorts it three ways.

1) First call up all the guys with lots of caps, irrespective of how old they are.
2) Then call up all the guys with high reputations, ignoring how well they are playing.
3) Then call up some random scrubs for experience.

The guys like Billy Sharp are great, but don't cover the first two options and are too good for option three. So they languish in uncapped mediocrity.

Anyone who's ever been an international manager and picked the team for a few years, go on holiday during the next team pick and surprise yourself at the players the AI call up. They'll cover the above points lovely.

The AI seems to have the talent spotting ability of Souness on the phone to someones cousin. (When they aren't using the ability to spot the next Ronaldinho even though he plays in the Faroe Islands and has never had a game in his life, obviously)
VB

Kill Rock Stars
21-01-2008, 13:48
it can't be a problem with ca, because there can't be four or five uruguayan strikers with a better ca than cavani keeping him out of the squad.

likewise, if reputation is being calculated correctly then surely the big money moves some of these players have been involved in should catapult them into the national side?

Caleyjag
21-01-2008, 13:51
Quick question... is Billy Sharp real, or a product of Harchester United?

Reider84
21-01-2008, 13:55
Billy Sharp is a real player, made his name with Scunthorpe in League 1, has moved on since to Sheffield United in the championship.

Caleyjag
21-01-2008, 13:56
Okay, just wasn't sure, I remember him being amazing in my FM game in 2007, but think I signed him from Harchester at one point when I accidentally had that team loaded on the game.

tomshaw
21-01-2008, 14:05
though it seem obvious sharp should be in the england squad, who are the strikers for england in your season atm?

Fantazm
21-01-2008, 16:43
I've noticed the same thing with France in my game.(maybe other nations too but I only noticed it with France)

They seemed to refuse to call up Saivet even though he was 25 and banging goals in for Milan and also I had a regen French right winger who was winning world awards but they still never called him up.

Glenn Roeder
21-01-2008, 18:13
It all seems to be a bit of a mystery.

Abou Diaby has been a fringe player for me at Arsenal for 6 seasons and yet he has managed to amass about 70 caps in total for France.

cfcSpireites
21-01-2008, 18:32
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Reider84:

all picked by Steve McLaren, this is about 8 seasons in.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Say no more! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Reider84
22-01-2008, 12:57
tomshaw,

Throughout this career game various strikers have been included in the England squad. The main group are as follows.

07-12
Owen
Crouch
Rooney
Johnson
Bent
Defoe

12+
Rooney
Bent
Defoe
Walcott
Moore

Now obviously Rooney and Owen deserve to be in there, also Crouch did well in the first couple of seasons but after that none of the strikers selected for England were regularly playing and scoring for their clubs or scoring for England when picked.

Edison Cavani is the one who puzzles me because despite his great record at club level and his high CA/PA he still hasn't been called up for Uruguay ahead of largely less talented players.

Ruud Van Nistelrooy 774
22-01-2008, 16:06
For the 2010 World Cup all the players with the exception of Glen Johnson have featured in most England squads in the last year or so. The international managers just don't seem to pick new players coming through.

Reider84
23-01-2008, 04:03
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ruud Van Nistelrooy 774:
For the 2010 World Cup all the players with the exception of Glen Johnson have featured in most England squads in the last year or so. The international managers just don't seem to pick new players coming through. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes Glen Johnson also came through in mine. It does seem that managers get stuck with the same squads and rarely make new callups until the players are completely past it.

Like I said though this isn't always down to CA, maybe reputation??

Old Git
23-01-2008, 04:30
There does appear to be an issue with AI International managers. A number of people have pointed out that many of todays hottest properties on the planet remain on 0 caps some 5 years into the game, whilst the main squad retains the 35yr old player. One example I can think of is Sergio Aguerro, who seven years into my game has not yet picked up an international cap!

The downside to this issue is WPs of course. If you are playing in England, you will never be able to obtain a WP for this talent as the International squad continues to play greys and crinklies.

I know that people have brought it up in the bugs forum and hopefully it is something the guys can look at.

stumostro
23-01-2008, 05:43
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Reider84:
But what I'm trying to say is that IRL players do not have a CA and PA that managers pay attention to, they pureley pick players on what they may have done in the past to a large extent but also will pick players on current form, at least in the squad. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If thats true, Dave Kitson will be in the next England squad due to him scoring the most out of all the english players in the Prem league. IRL there are far too many players which get overlooked dispite playing well in the league.

Bonzo
23-01-2008, 05:55
If a player has performed well for say 2 years consecutively then they should be knocking on the door of the national team.

Stumostro
Marlon Harewood was the top scoring English man 2 years ago I think then failed miserably the next year. If West ham had started well and he was in form he could have got a cap or 2 ala Ricketts

vasilli07
23-01-2008, 06:10
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Reider84:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ruud Van Nistelrooy 774:
For the 2010 World Cup all the players with the exception of Glen Johnson have featured in most England squads in the last year or so. The international managers just don't seem to pick new players coming through. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes Glen Johnson also came through in mine. It does seem that managers get stuck with the same squads and rarely make new callups until the players are completely past it.

Like I said though this isn't always down to CA, maybe reputation?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's likely a reputation problem. Someone reported in the bugs forum earlier that reputation never increases if players have done well, that's why rhose performing well are often over-looked for international games.

Do a search in the bugs forum.

tappspeed
23-01-2008, 06:44
Just to add some evidence to the consensus here: Alexandre Pato in my game (now at 2014) has been named World Footballer of the Year twice and has two or three golden boots, but still has not seen any action on the main Brazil squad - hasn't even been called as a backup. Granted Fred and the other starting striker are really decent, but putting somebody like Vagner Love on the squad ahead of Pato... doesn't make any sense.

On a related note, what does it take to get a World-Class reputation in this game? Pato - World Footballer of the Year twice, etc. etc. - is Continental; Giovani Dos Santos has been World-Class apparently since he left his mother's womb.

Flanno7hi
23-01-2008, 08:05
Tappspeed
I was accepted the brazil job in 2012 in my game and was astonished to be giving Pato his first cap, he had 63 u21 caps and 1 world footballer award. he hasnt actually done too well but he made a great backup up for anselmo ramon(sp?) of betis who was doing great for me. won the world cup and took the spain job.

Tha AI International teams seem to keep the initial squad for way too long.
Ronaldinho was in barca reserves and was still brazil captain when i took over-i dropped him.

grahamf
23-01-2008, 08:11
Was really suprised in my Blackburn save that Derbyshire got his first cap in 2010. He's playing pretty well but he's my fourth choice striker and only gets used in rotation if Defoe is tired. Presumably there must have been a few injuries to the regular strikers.

danielgear
23-01-2008, 08:32
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cfcSpireites:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Reider84:

all picked by Steve McLaren, this is about 8 seasons in.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Say no more! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

talk about unrealstic! becks will still bein the squad then doubt mclarens grew a pair by then http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

homerjnick
23-01-2008, 08:42
I thought this was a known bug in 8.01 no?

SI have confirmed in the past that international managers tend to pick the same squad till they near retire and never pick the best young players who come through the ranks and play well at the top level.

Patch 8.02 hopefully will fix it.

Reider84
23-01-2008, 11:50
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by homerjnick:
I thought this was a known bug in 8.01 no?

SI have confirmed in the past that international managers tend to pick the same squad till they near retire and never pick the best young players who come through the ranks and play well at the top level.

Patch 8.02 hopefully will fix it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never knew it was a known bug, I did a search in the bugs forum and found some discussing similiar material but none actually confirming it as a bug, do you have a link?



In following,

Yes Pato is another I mentioned on my game, still in hid mid 20's though and Brazil is so blessed in the strikers department I wasn't sure if it deserved inclusion. Suprising again though not even to be involved in any of the squads.

jaycar
25-01-2008, 03:43
Very good point about Billy Sharp.

Just finished my 3rd season, he scored 42 in the championship, 29 in the 1st EPL season, 28 the 2nd. Both EPL seasons efforts won him the golden boot.

The result? No teams are in the slightest bit interested (not that I'd sell him...)