Attributes VS The Big Six. Which should win? Discuss.

I'm an old timer when it comes to this game. I like many others, have struggled to adapt to the new direction the game has taken. With the invention and implimentation of the match engine, it has given us the oppurtunity to scrutenise the AI, and its application of what we have set tactically. It seems as though quite a few people are of the opinion they are being cheated.

I for one am not one of those people. I am a banker by trade, I studied finance at Uni, so my understanding and or knowledge of game programming, is quite limited to say the least. But to my limited understanding programming is all numbers. And thats something I do understand, very very well.

Now I have played this game for many many years. Since a friend of mine introduced me to CM2. I was a jock, had played football for 14 yrs at the time. Hadnt really ever played video games apart from sega/sony and such with buddies. Fifa, Pro Evo were always a common.

I fell in love instantly. Holy crap, I CAN MANAGE UNITED!!!!! The mighty Devils shall never lose again!! Over the years I have purchased each and every new version on release day. Most are payed for on first sight in a gaming shops computer. Needless to say, this game is and has been for years my favorite game. FFS I have it on my work lappy's for long flights and boring office days. And my wife just addores it.

Now enough of the needless history lesson. Sorry bout that. The reason this is here is simply to ask the general populous' opinions once and for all, what you people think of the direction. The tactical, interaction VS playesr attributes and thier implimentation by the AI.

A lot of people will make certain arguments, coming here, after losing a game, in which they were supposed to win, filthy at the fact that thier keeper just ball watched in the box allowing a goal or something. We have all been there. We have all seen the catch up logic. Its a game it is always in games. Thats a fact. There is no escaping it. If there wasnt, we wouldnt play them. Humans are far smarter than programms. Well most of us anyway. They would be far too easy.

So we look at interaction as the main driving force. Let test the human psychology. Are you a manager of football players, or are you a manager of men. All with different likes and dislikes. Can you manage personalities. This itself makes the game completely different.

Most people who are not new to this game, will remember the days of attributes. Twenty finishing/composure just stick him up front, 25 a season guaranteed. And that was in a terrible formation/tactical plan. It did not matter in the least. We played an attribute game, and it was **** easy. attributes despite my anger from time to time still make a massive difference.

So we come to the numbers, what games are built on. Binary code rite? Ones and zero's? Numbers. Its a programm its the only way. So what we get is this. Since 06 we have had a match engine. 06 was still a case of attributes being everything. You would set one tactic, put the best in, and win everything with some silly AMC tactic. Scholes was GOD!

But with 07, which I mite add, was the first version I ever patched, we had a revelation. We ahve a test. Your tactical plan is still all important. Your players are still as vital. But now we have the third dimension. Other attributes to watch out for. Mental attributes are it now. We have to adapt.

The problem with it is, that there has been limited advice on such matters. Which can be construde in a few ways. There is no doubt in my mind at all, being a professional myself, that the programmers and testers, would love to have five years to make each version. And make patches and such in between. But any of you that think that are dreaming. They have jobs and thier employers have bills.

We now have what I commonly refer to as the big six. In order IMO they go Form, Morale, Media(both interaction and mass media), team talks and tactics. Yes tactics last. Why? you ask well simply this. You know who your playing and the formations they are playing. Thats why SI gave you scouts and watch match highlights options. If you dont take notice of these its your fault, not SI's. I have picked up so many things relying on scouts and looking myself.

All the others pretty much are quite strange apart from form. Teams with poor morale can play well. Media can send players bonkers, and talks can turn them into five year old's. Wanting out casue you said have a good game. So I will say again we have to adapt.

The whole argument attributes vs tactics and the match engine for mine is premature. We are playing a new game. We are being tested. Its not about tactics and players anymore, and never should be again. We have more work to do now. We are looking in the wrong places for answers. You cant win every single game anymore. And thats realism.

The big six when combined perfectly, result in 5-0 wins over Real in the ECL final last season for me. And the wrong combination, resulted in me getting belted by chelsea at the bridge. We have to work now. We arent really playing a game anymore. People say that you have to put sarrows and barrows and such, that look silly to win. WATCH A DAMN GAME!! Do players run all over the place. YES!! Now how would SI go about recreating this for us. Maybe arrows and such you think.

I found the most helpful advice when I asked. And got shot down like duck when making silly remarks. Now some were completely founded, but ill-conceived is all. I had blamed the fact that Rio should be awesome, becasue he is. Reguarless of the fact that I hadnt really disigned anything for anyone really. Just went about things as I always have. Dominate and win. "What a counter! One shot one goal they win!! Ive had fifteen on target and thier keeper is superman!!" Thats something we've all seen.

But quite simply one or three of the six was out. This is somewhat infuriating for some to say the least. some want a challenge others, want a win everything with Kettering town in ten years game. So here it is. With all my dribble here, (and I have to oppologise, im on a flight from L.A to Sydney ATM and im very tired, bad typing/gramma). Thats simply not me anymore, i thought I liked winning everthing all the time. But now I love winning stuff. It means you got it rite. It means ive done my job.

Now a lot of people will make the argument that they want an easier game. I want to see where you all are. Lets give some sort of difinitive response as to the direction. No anger, no whining. Its a game and that wont help anyone. We all get angry at it. But do the pros ever really look that happy. I swear this game gives me grey hairs..LMFAO. Do you want the last line of defence to be a rock.(anyone watch Friedel against my lads last night, talk about superman. How he saved off O'shea i'll never know, AMAZING!) Or do you want to have attributes rule the world.

Come on lads, sorry for the length. What is it ATTRIBUTES VS BIG SIX? Choose. Im for the six makes it more realistic. Even if i have broken things, and game discs, and so on and so on. I was a DC all my playing days, explained easily. I love it. It will get better and better and better. You **** me off SI but I love your work. Go hard lads. Glory Glory MAN UTD!!

I'm an old timer when it comes to this game. I like many others, have struggled to adapt to the new direction the game has taken. With the invention and implimentation of the match engine, it has given us the oppurtunity to scrutenise the AI, and its application of what we have set tactically. It seems as though quite a few people are of the opinion they are being cheated.

I for one am not one of those people. I am a banker by trade, I studied finance at Uni, so my understanding and or knowledge of game programming, is quite limited to say the least. But to my limited understanding programming is all numbers. And thats something I do understand, very very well.

Now I have played this game for many many years. Since a friend of mine introduced me to CM2. I was a jock, had played football for 14 yrs at the time. Hadnt really ever played video games apart from sega/sony and such with buddies. Fifa, Pro Evo were always a common.

I fell in love instantly. Holy crap, I CAN MANAGE UNITED!!!!! The mighty Devils shall never lose again!! Over the years I have purchased each and every new version on release day. Most are payed for on first sight in a gaming shops computer. Needless to say, this game is and has been for years my favorite game. FFS I have it on my work lappy's for long flights and boring office days. And my wife just addores it.

Now enough of the needless history lesson. Sorry bout that. The reason this is here is simply to ask the general populous' opinions once and for all, what you people think of the direction. The tactical, interaction VS playesr attributes and thier implimentation by the AI.

A lot of people will make certain arguments, coming here, after losing a game, in which they were supposed to win, filthy at the fact that thier keeper just ball watched in the box allowing a goal or something. We have all been there. We have all seen the catch up logic. Its a game it is always in games. Thats a fact. There is no escaping it. If there wasnt, we wouldnt play them. Humans are far smarter than programms. Well most of us anyway. They would be far too easy.

So we look at interaction as the main driving force. Let test the human psychology. Are you a manager of football players, or are you a manager of men. All with different likes and dislikes. Can you manage personalities. This itself makes the game completely different.

Most people who are not new to this game, will remember the days of attributes. Twenty finishing/composure just stick him up front, 25 a season guaranteed. And that was in a terrible formation/tactical plan. It did not matter in the least. We played an attribute game, and it was **** easy. attributes despite my anger from time to time still make a massive difference.

So we come to the numbers, what games are built on. Binary code rite? Ones and zero's? Numbers. Its a programm its the only way. So what we get is this. Since 06 we have had a match engine. 06 was still a case of attributes being everything. You would set one tactic, put the best in, and win everything with some silly AMC tactic. Scholes was GOD!

But with 07, which I mite add, was the first version I ever patched, we had a revelation. We ahve a test. Your tactical plan is still all important. Your players are still as vital. But now we have the third dimension. Other attributes to watch out for. Mental attributes are it now. We have to adapt.

The problem with it is, that there has been limited advice on such matters. Which can be construde in a few ways. There is no doubt in my mind at all, being a professional myself, that the programmers and testers, would love to have five years to make each version. And make patches and such in between. But any of you that think that are dreaming. They have jobs and thier employers have bills.

We now have what I commonly refer to as the big six. In order IMO they go Form, Morale, Media(both interaction and mass media), team talks and tactics. Yes tactics last. Why? you ask well simply this. You know who your playing and the formations they are playing. Thats why SI gave you scouts and watch match highlights options. If you dont take notice of these its your fault, not SI's. I have picked up so many things relying on scouts and looking myself.

All the others pretty much are quite strange apart from form. Teams with poor morale can play well. Media can send players bonkers, and talks can turn them into five year old's. Wanting out casue you said have a good game. So I will say again we have to adapt.

The whole argument attributes vs tactics and the match engine for mine is premature. We are playing a new game. We are being tested. Its not about tactics and players anymore, and never should be again. We have more work to do now. We are looking in the wrong places for answers. You cant win every single game anymore. And thats realism.

The big six when combined perfectly, result in 5-0 wins over Real in the ECL final last season for me. And the wrong combination, resulted in me getting belted by chelsea at the bridge. We have to work now. We arent really playing a game anymore. People say that you have to put sarrows and barrows and such, that look silly to win. WATCH A DAMN GAME!! Do players run all over the place. YES!! Now how would SI go about recreating this for us. Maybe arrows and such you think.

I found the most helpful advice when I asked. And got shot down like duck when making silly remarks. Now some were completely founded, but ill-conceived is all. I had blamed the fact that Rio should be awesome, becasue he is. Reguarless of the fact that I hadnt really disigned anything for anyone really. Just went about things as I always have. Dominate and win. "What a counter! One shot one goal they win!! Ive had fifteen on target and thier keeper is superman!!" Thats something we've all seen.

But quite simply one or three of the six was out. This is somewhat infuriating for some to say the least. some want a challenge others, want a win everything with Kettering town in ten years game. So here it is. With all my dribble here, (and I have to oppologise, im on a flight from L.A to Sydney ATM and im very tired, bad typing/gramma). Thats simply not me anymore, i thought I liked winning everthing all the time. But now I love winning stuff. It means you got it rite. It means ive done my job.

Now a lot of people will make the argument that they want an easier game. I want to see where you all are. Lets give some sort of difinitive response as to the direction. No anger, no whining. Its a game and that wont help anyone. We all get angry at it. But do the pros ever really look that happy. I swear this game gives me grey hairs..LMFAO. Do you want the last line of defence to be a rock.(anyone watch Friedel against my lads last night, talk about superman. How he saved off O'shea i'll never know, AMAZING!) Or do you want to have attributes rule the world.

Come on lads, sorry for the length. What is it ATTRIBUTES VS BIG SIX? Choose. Im for the six makes it more realistic. Even if i have broken things, and game discs, and so on and so on. I was a DC all my playing days, explained easily. I love it. It will get better and better and better. You **** me off SI but I love your work. Go hard lads. Glory Glory MAN UTD!!

i like the way they game is going. i dont like games that are too easy.

just take SWOS as an example. i could win 32-0 in a 3 minute game.

i want to feel like i've achieved somethign when i bring up a youngster to become a star player. and you certainly dont get that if you can guranteee goals just by having certain stats.

tactics are important in the game as they are in real life and i like this.

this isn't to say that you have to change your tactics all the time because as i never tire of saying, my fm08 tactics are only a slight tweak of my fm06 tactics.

as you have pointed out yourself, FM doesn't have a 5 year turn over plan to be made, now if they had money pumped in a flowing out of their ears then they could afford more man hours towards testing and such. but i doubt that will happen.

but then the game is hardly a shambles as it is, i've enjoyed every FM08 game regardless of what patch.

the game is going in the right direction in my opinion.

Funnily enough I have been pondering a similar concept myself although I would not put it in the exact same way you have.

But yes, it is definitely true that the switch from an attribute model to, as you put it, a "big six model" has made the game both more realistic, and more frustrating.

big6, of course.

cheers for your post. I enjoyed reading it

Been playing since the old CMs and now the new FMs and I agree with 4-2-4.

It's a bit of a double edged sword for me, really. On my better days I love to tinker with tactics and find the perfect slider combinations to play a freeflowing passing game. But on my lazier days I just want to pick my starting 11 and grind through a game or two, which I suppose is much harder to win with the newer versions.

Also, I'm in my first season managing City (in 2011) and I have quite a few decent players, but the media expects the team to struggle with relegation. I looked at my squad, had a laugh, and thought we'd be closer to Europe than First Division. But of course the media's right. I wasn't really into the morale and mind games-- since the cause and effects of these interactions have been left intentionally vague. In a way, it's kind of like that feeling when you walk into a party and everybody knows the joke except you.

But with all that said, I still agree that this is a step forward because despite the bugs and my own tactical and managerial deficiencies, the payoffs when I get it right (rare but they do occur) is quite exhilarating. The only drawback is that I can't play the game at 3am in the morning bereft of concentration anymore.

What a fantastic post.

It's good to know some people out there are still thinking about the game rather than giving knee-jerk reactions to "soopakeepaz".

I want the game to be as realistic as possible. This probably means it has to be deep, so I'd go with the 'big 6' option. However, some of these aspects still need work of course, and they are far from perfect.

probably the longest post i've read all of on this forum, or any forum for that matter.

The reason, 4-2-4 clearly knows what he's talking about, and has made more valid points in that one post than most people on these forums (and i include myself) could make in a year

And i agree in that the game in moving in a positive direction. I mean it is by no means perfect, but IMO, it never will be.

Now i am not a world class FM'er. I can win the league in most countries, yes, but I'm not one of these guys who can take Weston-super-mare to the Champions League Final. But to be honest, I'm almost glad i can't.

I'm quite happy to make my way to the top my jumping between clubs and leagues, because it's real.

And hopefully in a few years time we will have a game which will mimic real life almost 100%. As i say, it will never be perfect, but lets be honest, it's a hell of a lot closer to perfect than any other manager game about, so as long as it keeps improving, nothing can go wrong

But yeah, thats 4-2-4, an interesting read from someone who clearly knows his stuff (and also has lots of free time, lol)

Unbelievable post by 4-2-4. I agree with 'Big 6' thingy.

- In FM, I'd be happy if I'm relegated with Newcastle, rather than seeing them win champions league next season(2008/09).

- In FM, I'd be happy if my board only allows me to spend 10 Millions on new signings rather than 50 Millions.

- In FM, I hate it when people on this forum come and say I've won Champions league with Nottingham Forrest in 2010. This is never going to happen in real life so I absolutely hate to read these kind of posts.

TO BE CONTINUED........

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">We now have what I commonly refer to as the big six. In order IMO they go Form, Morale, Media(both interaction and mass media), team talks and tactics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Little summary here for the hard of concentration.

You omit training altogether - why? It could be argued that this was a major factor in Spurs under-achiving under Jol this season.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by phnompenhandy:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">We now have what I commonly refer to as the big six. In order IMO they go Form, Morale, Media(both interaction and mass media), team talks and tactics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Little summary here for the hard of concentration.

You omit training altogether - why? It could be argued that this was a major factor in Spurs under-achiving under Jol this season. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Although I am not the OP, I don't think training is that difficult to master. Certainly you don't end up with players eating pie and chips in the club canteen!

Just sign good coaches, let the game auto assign them, then look at the blue bars. Tweak the sliders to try and get the ones that you think are important as pale as possible without makingt the player unhappy.

However, managing morale, condition and tactics is a lot less clear cut because you don't get the same level of feedback.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sosidge:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by phnompenhandy:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">We now have what I commonly refer to as the big six. In order IMO they go Form, Morale, Media(both interaction and mass media), team talks and tactics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Little summary here for the hard of concentration.

You omit training altogether - why? It could be argued that this was a major factor in Spurs under-achiving under Jol this season. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Although I am not the OP, I don't think training is that difficult to master. Certainly you don't end up with players eating pie and chips in the club canteen!

Just sign good coaches, let the game auto assign them, then look at the blue bars. Tweak the sliders to try and get the ones that you think are important as pale as possible without makingt the player unhappy.

However, managing morale, condition and tactics is a lot less clear cut because you don't get the same level of feedback. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, thats it. All I do, is concentrate on coaches for aech and every skill. To have highest rating possible depending on which of my clubs it is. In my smaller clubs I dont have that luxury. But the training still improves the players.

There are loads of things I didnt speak of in this post, that are wrong. Was just saying that these seem to have a much larger bearing on results than brfore. Training/ tactics are still similar. Got a few tips here and there. Game still drives me mad though. lol .

Just had a Friedelesque performance, from a Potters 22 yr old. He made three insane saves. We got hit on the break late, cause i got ****ed and overcommited. Damn game, how dare it punish my error. lol we won title last week anyway. Still ****ed though. Hammer blow from 30 yrds by Utaka.

Go you Devils tonight. Glory Glory Man Utd!!

An interesting view of the game that I am sure has stimulated debate of the games direction.

I wrote a response to this topic at FM-Britain. You can find The Management Game here.

Cheers

Leroy

4-2-4,

I agree with alot of what you said, however i feel that i am now in a position to do so. Ask me the same question 2 months ago and i would have thought you mad.

I think one of the major problems and ironically a huge positive with this game is that it takes time to understand.

Forgive me for making the comparison, its not the style nor the genre that i am comparing, but the commitment needed.

I feel that this game has entered teh realms of the Online fantasy games, there is a level of enjoyment, but you constantly see what else is available to other people and unless you download a tactic or have spent huge amounts of time designing one, you are going to struggle with the limit of what you know or what is available to you.

Its not coincidence that most of the success stories come from dedicated players that have played the game for years or have had the time to dedicate to it recently. Please do not flame me here, as obviously there are others that have made it work.

I, fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your view, have a lot of time on my hands at present, therefore i have now garnered a decent level of understanding.... i mean i actualy designed a 442 that worked and i have just dropped it in favour or Cleons new tactic (which is rather good if i say so).

With this in mind (and ill get to the point, else this will be the longest reply to the longest post), now that i understand the game i want it to be more challenging and infact i have just posted about starting over with a lower league team. Now this is coming from a man that two months ago, was using the editor, mini-scout and another program (forget the name), i would download all maner of tactics and spend hours on end playing them over and over.

The last thing i would want to see is the 'easy' or 'hard' options at the begining of the game, but it kind of makes my point.

Ill try and sum it up in a sentences......

If you understand the game, its to easy. If you do not, its a bloody nightmare.

I am not sure if there is a fix for this or even if there should be one.

Your post is very provocative as, in my opinion, you seem to have time to dedicate to this game. I have mentioned that i have time to, but there is no way on gods earth that i am going to study my oppositions previous games in order for me to work out how to beat them. That said, your point is very valid about 'it being our own bloody fault' (or words to that effect), but some simply do not have the time to dedicate to the game to do that.

Is it unfair of them to still want to enjoy the game? Afterall, they have stuck with it for years and it has been (relatively) easy.

Lets face it, in previous games, who didnt rule the premiership, who didnt buy all the best players in the world, who wasnt england (or equivalent) manager?

Anyhows,i think i have jabbered on as much as you now

I hope i made my point, whihc i know is very 'sitting on the fence'

Lee

The difficulty option feature would be ridiculous

The aim for SI every year is to make a more realistic management game

Now think of how much closer they are to that now than in, even last years game, never mind going back to the Champ man series

Now why would they take all that work, and ditch it by giving people the option for a difficulty setting

Also, it would mean filling these boards with "hard mode is too hard!" "easy mode is too easy!" "there's no difference between quite hard mode and quite easy mode!"

it would also take so much effort on SI's poart to impliment this that we would have to sacrifice multiple features more in demand, and more neccessary to make the game a more realistic management expreience

If FM's too difficult for you, play LMA/Fifa Manager etc

The appearance of ready made tactics available to download helps this problem (in my opinion). If you want to just pick up and play and not have to delve into the realms of finding perfect tactics and the like, just download one. If you want to be more immersed in the game, make your own

As far as the other factors are concerned it's all part of the realism, and the game would be a poorer place without it.

I'd go for the Big Six because that's more realistic but for myself sometimes I just can't be bothered to go into all that detail although it would be very good when I am bothered so...