I will never understand this!

I'm Barcelona, currently beating Bayern Munich 2-0 away from home in the Champs League knockout round. It's half-time, I have Gerard Pique doing a man-marking role on Ivica Olic as they are playing him up front on his own with an AM behind him. Now, if I leave him up there with two defenders zonal marking we all know he will stand in between both and neither will mark him and he will be free to score with a through ball.

My point is this, he has ran off Pique at least 4 times from through balls but luckily missed the target with poor finishes. How this is happening I don't know, Pique looks like he's never had to follow a runner before or, anticipate a through ball and marker running off his shoulder, nonetheless, Pique's half-time rating is 6.9!!!! How is this possible? He's been torn apart!!!! Why is he getting such a decent rating and why can I not tell him he's losing his marker too often and he needs to wake up and concentrate! If his rating is purely because of a clean sheet, well that just stinks! I appreciate he's doing a few things right, but, seriously, he's having a stinker in his man marking role, irrespective of whether he is capable of doing it or not!

If I was man marking Olic I would mark him aggressively. He is very fast and strong so if you don't tackle him immediately he's gone.

Personally I would let Olic come on to the defenders and wait for him to make a move (dribble/passing). And then I would man mark the AMC and tackle him hard. Preferably that should be done with a DMC but a MC(D) could be used.

Pique could score an own goal and still have 6.8 - 7.0 rating

it's because of the clean sheet and because Barcelona are high rated in the game (Messi getting high ratings doing nothing played by the AI), they have huge reputation

I have Mascherano Marking Pranjic (AMC). It's not that he's losing him, I understand Olic and his power and pace, it's the manner in how it looks to be happening. Anyway, more to the point, it is happening yet he still gets a decent rating. Essentially, he has just been about as effective as Titus Bramble.

I think that ratings are calculated based on the score too. Rarely seen a defender that had a rating lower than 6.5 in a match won by 2 or more goals in which he does not make a mistake that leads to a goal / miss a penalty.

I say this because I have seen ratings go up for all players after a goal is scored, almost all the time.

I would not mark Olic so tightly, because he'll turn Pique, who cannot tackle if Olic does not have the ball. Olic is so quick that tight marking has no chance. Stand off him, use a covering CB aswell. Otherwise risk using a high D-Line and offside trap.

I used a Covering CB too. I had Pique marking him tight hoping he would stay tight and not give him the opportunity to turn him. Having Olic running at him scares me more! I had Puyol covering with Zonal marking but not tight. I won 3-1. My issue wasn't so much the marking, it was how Pique ended the game with a 7.1 after being ripped a new arsehole by Olic!

Isn't it the case that the match rating doesn't really reflect the performance of the player per se, but more the team and only those passes/tackles/headers that are deemed key? You'll see big boosts/drops on scoring or making a mistake leading to a goal but, as you say, a player who in real terms is performing badly gets a decent score because of the result (I wonder if Olic had scored Pique would have been deemed to have made a mistake, due to failing to perform his task?)

I don't know the answer here, but if you have a midfielder who has 70+ passes a match with 90%+ completion but none key, would he get a lower rating that somebody with, say, 20 passes at 60+ completion but 2 key?

I don't know the answer here, but if you have a midfielder who has 70+ passes a match with 90%+ completion but none key, would he get a lower rating that somebody with, say, 20 passes at 60+ completion but 2 key?

I really don't know the answer.

I've seen both of the scenarios, but this is because other things done by a player during the match are taken into consideration when the final rating is calculated.

If I were the one who decides the ratings, I would give the second player (with those 2 key passes) the gold medal.

I really don't know the answer.

I've seen both of the scenarios, but this is because other things done by a player during the match are taken into consideration when the final rating is calculated.

If I were the one who decides the ratings, I would give the second player (with those 2 key passes) the gold medal.

And therein is the problem (that may or may not reflect the ME). Without watching the game, you don't know if the 70+ passes were of a greater overall contribution to the game or not - both the 2 key passes may have resulted in missed chances, for example - so to judge performance on that alone would be very odd.

Edit: To add to that, you'd need to know the context of those passes. 65 of those 70 passes back to the defence wouldn't be very worthy overall, but if the remaining 5 of those 70 passes that led to a pass that led to a chance then does that change your view?

I don't know how the ME determines a key pass i.e. is it just those directly leading to a chance, or the one before that - can anybody clarify?

The match rating system isn't sophisticated enough to judge players accurately on their total performance, it is just based on a limited number of factors suchs as goals, assists, mistakes leading to goals and key passes/headers/etc.

The match rating system isn't sophisticated enough to judge players accurately on their total performance, it is just based on a limited number of factors suchs as goals, assists, mistakes leading to goals and key passes/headers/etc.

Well that's exactly the point.

I don't think that there is a difference between a back, simple pass, or a long/difficult pass in terms of rating.

I don't think that there is a difference between a back, simple pass, or a long/difficult pass in terms of rating.

No, I didn't expect there would be - but that just proves the disconnect between ratings and what we see. Going back to the first post, Pique wasn't doing a good job of man-marking Olic, but got a good rating because of the result. If Olic had scored, would that have counted as a mistake against Pique?

If Olic had scored, would that have counted as a mistake against Pique?

It wouldn't.

It wouldn't.

Hmm, that's what I thought - I think it should show as mistake, personally. As it is, Pique can actually perform his role poorly, but not show it in the ratings nor his individual match stats.

I'm not sure what to make of that really, as I play commentary only so wouldn't see this problem via the match rating, individual stats or the commentary itself. I do understand that the rating has to abstract the match stats into something easier to deal with but it seems a little unhelpful.

That said, the argument (rightly or wrongly) would be that I should either watch matches in more detail or live with the consequences.

So going back to my earlier question, what does the ME deem a key pass/tackle/header? Is it only the one that directly creates/stops a chance?

1. I'm not sure if a defender fails to stop a striker and the attacker eventually scores should be automatically marked as mistake.

Just think of Messi when he goes past the entire defense and scores. In this case, the goal is scored as a result of a great run, and not because a defender made a mistake; I know it is an exageration, but hope you understand what I mean.

2. Regarding the key pass/tackle/header/etc..., I think you're right. Only when one of those creates/stops a real goal scoring chance is seen as a key bla bla bla.

1. I'm not sure if a defender fails to stop a striker and the attacker eventually scores should be automatically marked as mistake.

Just think of Messi when he goes past the entire defense and scores. In this case, the goal is scored as a result of a great run, and not because a defender made a mistake; I know it is an exageration, but hope you understand what I mean.

2. Regarding the key pass/tackle/header/etc..., I think you're right. Only when one of those creates/stops a real goal scoring chance is seen as a key bla bla bla.

Oh I totally understand your first point and I'm not saying it should always be a mistake because sometimes a goal comes about from a bit of genuine skill. But in this instance Pique makes numerous errors in not picking up his man (which he is fortunate not to be punished for) which I do think should be a mistake.

I know the ME has no chance of understanding that difference currently though so this conversation is sadly hypothetical. Interesting topic, though.

It's not always a mistake tho! Pique wasn't making mistakes, he was being out-performed and not playing well overall. He was having a poor game yet still came away with a 7.1. When Messi dribbles through defenders with such ease a lot of the time it is poor defending, he rarely does it at international level against the best in the world. That said, he is the bast dribbler in the world and by no means am I saying that he isn't capable of doing that. To me, a mistake by a defender is a bad back-pass or a mis-timed interception. On watching the game I'm disappointed at Pique's rating, it happens all over the field. I've had Messi playing terrible but scores a goal and get an 8.5! The ratings need to match what happens in the ME.

It's not always a mistake tho! Pique wasn't making mistakes, he was being out-performed and not playing well overall. He was having a poor game yet still came away with a 7.1. When Messi dribbles through defenders with such ease a lot of the time it is poor defending, he rarely does it at international level against the best in the world. That said, he is the bast dribbler in the world and by no means am I saying that he isn't capable of doing that. To me, a mistake by a defender is a bad back-pass or a mis-timed interception. On watching the game I'm disappointed at Pique's rating, it happens all over the field. I've had Messi playing terrible but scores a goal and get an 8.5! The ratings need to match what happens in the ME.

Well I'd say that failing to pick up your man leading to a chance is a mistake - it doesn't always have to be something that you do with the ball. Positional errors account for a lot of goals conceded and you would put that down as a mistake. From what you've said Pique just wasn't picking up his man - ergo a positional mistake (especially as you had given him explicit instructions to man-mark). I would argue that if one of those occasions led to a goal then it is due to Pique's positional error. If Olic had the ball and skinned him then no, I wouldn't count that as a mistake - that's just being beaten by a piece of skill.

And I agree with you that the ratings often do not make sense when watching the ME.

He was picking him up, just reacting slower to his off-the-ball movement.