Letter of Grievances by some FM Fans

Dear SIgames workers, Mr. Collyer, Mr. Jacobson,

Members of the team from the defunct French forum fmnextgen.com, now exclusively online on Facebook and Twitter (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Football-Manager-Next-Gen-Social-Network/207347719345990 & https://twitter.com/#!/FM_Next_Gen), we finally decided to write this little message after numerous discussions within our team...

We can certainly say that we are longtime fans of your child Football Manager, having all experienced when he was still called Championship Manager, or in French L’Entraîneur ... So we can say that we are all fans of both sports simulation and soccer since our childhood.

So yes, you provide considerable work for us to offer a comprehensive and interesting game, and certainly that despite the significant hours we offer free of our personal time to try to help, to enhance the FM community, propose updates, skins, facepacks, etc.. we did little credit to raise our voice today…

BUT that is also what drives us to take the pen today, because our favorite game, our “drug”, takes a direction that we do not delight at all.

Thereby why what was once a passion for us all is now just an activity?

Our biggest criticism is against the content of the game!

While it is still a more complete game, more comprehensive, with more details ...

BUT all of these developments are in our opinion over content of the game: his interest, his realism, his perfection.

Previously, we were playing a game that really asked us to grind our brain to achieve great things, whatever our team… Today, we just feel playing a game in the kind of hits Call of Duty or Battlefield game where the AI is never tough, where there is always an easy way to succeed, a kind of interactive movie where the player is due to win in the end, a game where the replayability is quickly uninteresting, except in multiplayer... But even in these games, you can adjust the difficulty level…

To support our words, you just have to notice the sheer number of stories (although we may sometimes doubt the veracity of the facts, of course) where a player will manage to get X successive divisions in X years to win the C1 year X+1 ... Where is the challenge? We even managed several times what should be a real achievement, and becomes a habit ... Win, win, win, you really have to want it to lose often at Football Manager, even newbies who just discover your game quickly pass great things…

Our second biggest point of unhappiness is about the database…

You pride yourself to have a great team scout working for you, certainly, and we recognize that you find real gems regularly ... But is this work worth when we see that people working for free are forced to make thousands of changes to your database in the first days after the release of FM, just to update transfers, loans, for contracts or contracts which sometimes took place nearly two years ago ... We French have many specific grievances against the database that we think this year was not even 80% complete. For football fans, it is clear that this is a little work...

And we will not speak about the official DB updates that only contain the major transfers… Football fans are constantly upset with that and have to do it themselves… Is this the only reason you let us use a Data Editor? To do what your team did not find important to do? What a shame… A single person connected on internet on a website like http://www.transfermarkt.de is able to do daily these thousands of DB changes you did not find relevant to do… Perhaps do you need people like this? You know in our team one of us would be really happy to spend his day and nights to produce up to dated DB changes as a job, and no more as a time-killer hobby…

At least, we really think that our old beloved puzzle has just become a really easy activity for anyone…

But perhaps are we just embittered old farts…

Specifically what we reproach is that the strengths of previous iterations, which were already an as successful video game than successful in charts, were totally dropped in favor of gameplay simplifications that make sure your game a great success, but for whom? The so-called football fans who want to win all the time because it's so cool? The kids who cannot stand to lose? The casual gamers?

Finally, we, football fans and sports simulation, for which FM was formerly the Holy Grail, have in front of them just a game of football among other and no more a management simulation ... Therefore, do we still have an interest to spend many hours playing, discussing, update, draw, for a game in which finally, we no longer find our happiness, as may be looking for another less demanding public…?

We sincerely hope you will take some of your precious time to answer to this request, and we also hope that your answer is going to be sincere and precise… We would prefer to know if we have to change our minds (and our hopes) instead of always dreaming of the harsh and realistic simulation you served us years before…

PS: If you feel the same thing and do agree with us. You can sign this letter on our facebook account or send a tweet to the following account:

• https://www.facebook.com/pages/Football-Manager-Next-Gen-Social-Network/207347719345990
  
• https://twitter.com/#!/FM_Next_Gen
  

The first thing about the difficulty on the game is that it's really easy, but I'm not a big FM Gamer just a little gamer, to make a average team on the way of success. In real life, you don't see Reading becoming the PL Champion one year after being in Championship. That is the point. The same thing can be said for the transfers. Even with a little club you can buy some really good players... In real life it's money talks first in 95% of transfers. I can go on and on and on but those two little examples shows how the difficulty in the game is awful now.

If you think the game is too easy go a league down or pick other challenges

The first thing about the difficulty on the game is that it's really easy, but I'm not a big FM Gamer just a little gamer, to make a average team on the way of success. In real life, you don't see Reading becoming the PL Champion one year after being in Championship. That is the point. The same thing can be said for the transfers. Even with a little club you can buy some really good players... In real life it's money talks first in 95% of transfers. I can go on and on and on but those two little examples shows how the difficulty in the game is awful now.

From my experiences, I would have to disagree. On my current save I got Portsmouth promoted in the first season (which probably wouldn't happen I will admit) but it is a struggle in the Premiership.

I think it's very easy for people to say that the game is easy when there are plenty of downloadable tactics and guides on the best players/-9 PA youngsters, etc. But if you try to play to 'realistic' limits*, it certainly shouldn't be a pushover.

* Avoid 'Forum Celebrity' players - Wilfried, Kara, Vrsaljko, etc.

Avoid overuse of 48 month payments

The game is too easy imo - and the longer you play the easier it gets.

I find it difficult, I find the ME horrific and the defending worse. The players never do what I ask! I have had success on the game but this one is by far the hardest version yet. I always play on 'sunday morning footballer' experience.

I don't have saves, it was on previous games. If I do an other one, I will upload my save and you can see my point.

MeesterCat, I've already saw peoples doing a "Lifeban" game (It means no transfers in any point, just your players.) In real life, it's impossible or we never saw it happen. In the game, it's easy to win and become the greatest coach of all time with this restriction. That's not realistic...

I don't have saves, it was on previous games. If I do an other one, I will upload my save and you can see my point.

MeesterCat, I've already saw peoples doing a "Lifeban" game (It means no transfers in any point, just your players.) In real life, it's impossible or we never saw it happen. In the game, it's easy to win and become the greatest coach of all time with this restriction. That's not realistic...

Im gonna call horse**** on this. I would love to see it. start a game with auto or sunday experience and go with oh let see Thurrock. using absolutely no transfers, I highl;y doubt you make it past league 1 in less then 15 years, even if you use a ME breaking tactic.

Im gonna call horse**** on this. I would love to see it. start a game with auto or sunday experience and go with oh let see Thurrock. using absolutely no transfers, I highl;y doubt you make it past league 1 in less then 15 years, even if you use a ME breaking tactic.

Why would you use no transfers? I actually think transfers are the be all and end all of this difficulty arguement. When I take over a team in the lower leagues, someone like Thurrock.... I often find that there are loads of free agents available who will join my club and instantly make my club the strongest in the league. This is even more so the case when more leagues are loaded from other countries. What I would really like to see to increase the difficulty is player knowledge to be harder.

Lets say i'm the Thurrock manager and I go to player search, I will find free agents from all round the world and instantly know how good they are, even if they have attribute masking I can get an idea instantly from a scout or straight away from a trial. I really think a massive improvement to the game would be to improve the attribute masking system. Perhaps for unknown players you would get an idea of their attributes from 1-5, 5-10 etc. So say you have a player who has 12 finishing... you would only know that he has between 10-15 or in other words he is a good finisher. Then the longer he plays for your team then the more you get an understanding of how good he is and from a range of 5 it will go to a range of 4 then range of 3 etc. It should take a long time to build up exact player knowledge, something like at least a season with the player being a first team regular.

This would massively improve the difficulty and mean that bad signings could be made as well as good ones.

As it is now we can gather all the attributes of a player from scouting visit, its practically impossible to make a bad signing and because of this the difficulty is way too easy.

This should at least be implemented into FM13 as an option because it may not be to everybodys taste but for the better players out there who want a challenge it would increase the difficulty and realism levels massively.

What do you think Neil Brock?

If you think the game is too easy go a league down or pick other challenges

you dont see RM winning everything every year just because their RM irl,same thing should happen in FM .

Why would you use no transfers? I actually think transfers are the be all and end all of this difficulty arguement. When I take over a team in the lower leagues, someone like Thurrock.... I often find that there are loads of free agents available who will join my club and instantly make my club the strongest in the league. This is even more so the case when more leagues are loaded from other countries. What I would really like to see to increase the difficulty is player knowledge to be harder.

Lets say i'm the Thurrock manager and I go to player search, I will find free agents from all round the world and instantly know how good they are, even if they have attribute masking I can get an idea instantly from a scout or straight away from a trial. I really think a massive improvement to the game would be to improve the attribute masking system. Perhaps for unknown players you would get an idea of their attributes from 1-5, 5-10 etc. So say you have a player who has 12 finishing... you would only know that he has between 10-15 or in other words he is a good finisher. Then the longer he plays for your team then the more you get an understanding of how good he is and from a range of 5 it will go to a range of 4 then range of 3 etc. It should take a long time to build up exact player knowledge, something like at least a season with the player being a first team regular.

This would massively improve the difficulty and mean that bad signings could be made as well as good ones.

As it is now we can gather all the attributes of a player from scouting visit, its practically impossible to make a bad signing and because of this the difficulty is way too easy.

This should at least be implemented into FM13 as an option because it may not be to everybodys taste but for the better players out there who want a challenge it would increase the difficulty and realism levels massively.

What do you think Neil Brock?

The thing with teams like Thurrock is that they bring in players born/from the local area, not from somewhere like Manchester etc. The game doesnt do that sort of transfer policies for these lower league teams

Why would you use no transfers? I actually think transfers are the be all and end all of this difficulty arguement. When I take over a team in the lower leagues, someone like Thurrock.... I often find that there are loads of free agents available who will join my club and instantly make my club the strongest in the league. This is even more so the case when more leagues are loaded from other countries. What I would really like to see to increase the difficulty is player knowledge to be harder.

Lets say i'm the Thurrock manager and I go to player search, I will find free agents from all round the world and instantly know how good they are, even if they have attribute masking I can get an idea instantly from a scout or straight away from a trial. I really think a massive improvement to the game would be to improve the attribute masking system. Perhaps for unknown players you would get an idea of their attributes from 1-5, 5-10 etc. So say you have a player who has 12 finishing... you would only know that he has between 10-15 or in other words he is a good finisher. Then the longer he plays for your team then the more you get an understanding of how good he is and from a range of 5 it will go to a range of 4 then range of 3 etc. It should take a long time to build up exact player knowledge, something like at least a season with the player being a first team regular.

This would massively improve the difficulty and mean that bad signings could be made as well as good ones.

As it is now we can gather all the attributes of a player from scouting visit, its practically impossible to make a bad signing and because of this the difficulty is way too easy.

This should at least be implemented into FM13 as an option because it may not be to everybodys taste but for the better players out there who want a challenge it would increase the difficulty and realism levels massively.

What do you think Neil Brock?

Personally i think anyone who ignores transfers is just silly. but It was a reply to Legrands post

"I've already saw peoples doing a "Lifeban" game (It means no transfers in any point, just your players.) In real life, it's impossible or we never saw it happen. In the game, it's easy to win and become the greatest coach of all time with this restriction. That's not realistic..."

implying that he has seen games with no trasnfering being used and becoming the "greatest coach of all time". so i stated a simple challenge. if the game is so easy that people can become the greatest with only there intake of players, then put your money wherte you mouth is a lets see you raise thurrock to top flight using no transfers.

To address your first point, to an extent there is a 'difficulty' setting in the game now - ask many users, if you start a game with little or not experience (say 'Sunday League Footballer') and take over a big club it will be far harder to get reactions from your players from team talks and other such things - this will make it more difficult for you to succeed until your earn the players respect.

OK mate, good joke, we laughed a lot, could we be a bit more serious now?

Do you really think we talked about our grievances here just in testing a game with Barcelona with a "International Footballer" Manager???

I thought you should be able to understand that we were used to this game for a long time...

For my part, I tried about 100 different teams since FM 2012 was launched (and I play every year to your game since CM 97-98) sometimes big clubs, sometimes little clubs from underground divisions in low profile countries... sometimes for several years, sometimes just for some months, and I know quite well how to use this setting... I play "Custom" or when I know well the team (from several older experiences or because I had to update it a lot...) in "Sunday League Footballer" mode... OK it is a bit harder to sign Cristiano Ronaldo or Leo Messi, but as I do not care of big stars and prefer rather seek some really useful complements to team in place, I do not feel it changed my gaming experience... Moreover I often sign young players with good potential and hope to drive them threw success in implementing them slowly to a more experienced team I try not to upset to much, I just throw away deadwoods or great value players that will bring me money to spend... But that is my way to do, and I feel easy to success in this way... Sorry!

In regards to the database we have never ever only done the 'major transfers' within the database. We pride ourselves on our database and the new database released with January transfer update will contain as many changes as we're aware of. As always, if you feel there are things within our database which are incorrect or have not been updated, we ask you to report such issues with the 'Data Issues' forum which can be found here - http://community.sigames.com/forumdisplay.php/238-Football-Manager-2012-Data-Issues

To be concrete, I do not have time to report thousands of transfers missing, I would have to paste directly official websites, leagues website or other stuff like this... and I do not think it is my job as I think you have persons that are paid for this job (cauz' yes, when you are pride from something, I understand you had to work on it, not waiting for other to do a big part of your job)

When I see how much your db can be late, I used to prefer to do it myself, but now we really feel you do not give a **** about it, thereby as I do not find any interest to an easy and a bit empty game, why would I spend hours and hours editing for free what should have been done by paid persons, and for what I paid 50€...

Just have a look to some serious websites like http://www.transfermarkt.de/en/transfers/startseite-km/transfers.html?from=top_navi or a bit more wikipedia style like http://www.footballdatabase.eu/transferts.php?compettrans=&lieutrans=&saisontrans= and you will be able to see by yourself the lack of serious of your "pride"...

When I received FM 2012, I just noticed than thousands of players had exactly the same marks than in 2011, and often in very known clubs... OK I just felt you did not give a **** about your fans... As an example we (a colleague and I... on our FREE time or sleeping time for our FMNG community and everyone that want to DL it) produced for FREE an update published November, 3rd 2011 (13 days after FM 2012...) on Footmanager.net, defunct FMNextGen.com and had to do about 2500 TRANSFERS and LOANS...

Believe us or not, fact are here, your DB is really late, even the french responsible of DB "Romjet" recognized they did not do great job this year in France... For me, it is quite ugly.

Mate, if you are really proud of this, OK I note it... But I can just tell you that when I do such an incomplete job at my workplace, it is not a letter of grievance from my boss I gonna receive, I might rather risk a serious bawling and a firing letter...

We feel since the changes in update 12.1.1 the game was made harder for the 'casual' fan - people will always find a tactic or squad which makes the game easier but there is certainly no 'easy code' within the game to make it easier for the casual gamer. I'm sure you'll find as many threads on this forum from users saying that it's too difficult as much as too easy. Everyone is entitled to their opinion - if you think it's too easy as said make it harder for yourselves by choosing minimal starting experience and see how you get on. Thanks.

We never spoke about code or stuff like it, just easy ways to find how to destroy AI easily and always easier year after year, and an awful feeling that there is no challenge in this game, and that is quite worst every year...

I really hoped your "wedding" with Sega in the mid'2000 would have allowed your team to free itself from having to create a game for everyone, with beautiful 3D and a more opened challenge, but I can just notice that these last years, you just focused (like the video game industry) on making a Top Seller for everyone more than a Bargain Buy for your fans... And the lengthy death of FM community on line (that used to offer great content and add-ons to your game, but feel now upset to have to do for free what you should have done) is perhaps the best example to this... I can just tell you that you risk to lose your lifelong fans, and the content of your answer is just a perfect example...

I would prefer you to have been quite honest and just answer us you did not care about out thoughts, and your biggest aim was now to make money with a successful franchise, then you would have been as honest as us...

Aurélien Boyer & Pierre Threnli

I would prefer you to have been quite honest and just answer us you did not care about out thoughts, and your biggest aim was now to make money with a successful franchise, then you would have been as honest as us...

Aurélien Boyer & Pierre Threnli

yes because that's what everybody wants, SI employees telling everyone with problems they don't care. what a stupid thing to say

He gives you an answer, that perhaps isnt to your liking, and you decide he isnt being honest with you? Bit odd to make that leap.

RE: Data and research, if you feel its not upto scratch, why not get involved, perhaps ask to become a Researcher for French Football? I'm sure they would love the extra help

yes because that's what everybody wants, SI employees telling everyone with problems they don't care. what a stupid thing to say

Thanks mate, you added so much to the debate!

Help SI to an improved DB? I would enjoy... I do it for free for 2 years now...

But I just want to work for people that really want to improve their game, and when I have a look to the DB, I may ask myself if this is a really goal...

If you are happy with things going, it is up to you mate, but does not come here to say we are wrong, the debate will not evolve ... It seems that we do not have the same expectations of what is called a "Management Simulation"...

The beauty of this game is that every ones save is different, different players go to different clubs. The clubs we manage all lead to different paths. If you are lucky enough to get a big spending chairman to splash the cash you may get it easy. If not the challenge is ever so more difficult. Whether its a relegation dogfight or a flirt with the play offs every game is that bitter different in both difficulty and playability.

You know I'm really sad to have to make these complaints, but the more you love something, the more you are harsh with because you expect perfection or quite... And when you feel sad or deceived by something you love, it is painful!

The AI problem isn't easy to solve, this sort of simulation games with an "hardcore" fanbase that played the game for many years suffer from the same problem, the AI just can't be complex enough to challenge a human user.

Having said that i still find the game challenging enough to keep me interested, i don't use the player search and only sign players recommended from my scouts/backroom or from transfer rumours, i don't use the 48-month installment option, though there are still too many high quality free players that stay a lot of time without a club and i get baffled how some youngsters with high potential get released from their clubs though i've read that might be an issue caused by the way i set up the database.

Couple of queries:

1: You said it is too easy. Do you use downloaded / super-tactics, or is the easiness about the ability to find good players (i.e. the player search function), or keeping the morale sky-high?

2: From the 2500 transfers and loans you edited, what percentage were loans? The SI Database has never included short-term loans.

1: You said it is too easy. Do you use downloaded / super-tactics, or is the easiness about the ability to find good players (i.e. the player search function), or keeping the morale sky-high?

Game is easy because AI managers are unable to recognize and work around different ME issues and are poor at squad building (AI is unable to recognize players that will complement preferred formation/style and particular skills of already available players).

+ as soon as you acquire a fast striker/winger you have super offense and if you acquire a couple of fast defenders on top of it you got your self a super tactic!

Couple of queries:

1: You said it is too easy. Do you use downloaded / super-tactics, or is the easiness about the ability to find good players (i.e. the player search function), or keeping the morale sky-high?

2: From the 2500 transfers and loans you edited, what percentage were loans? The SI Database has never included short-term loans.

1: No, I always do my own tactics... Quite never morale problem also, ans very easy to find the missing hole in the puzzle you're drawing with your team...

2: No short loans, I do not do them anymore to... Many long term loans missing in South America for example, even in Europe... And not only in low divisions or low profile countries... I find keeping Brasileirao Serie A up to date quite interesting, don't you?

At the end we received on FM Based (where our update has been downloaded since FM 2011) many thanks from polish, romanian, greek, russian, bulgarian, serbian fans and other countries I will forget there to AT LAST bring an updated DB for their countries...

I can also tell you that I worked on FM 2011 with an Italian colleague and we provided more than 1000 changes in a year just in Serie A, B and C1, because of tons of errors in staffs, contracts (co-contracts...), loans and transfers...

Again, I'm sorry if you are happy with that... I don't!

First of all, I'm Aurelien Boyer and I have create my own account to answer to everyone in this topic.

I'm very disappointing when I read your comments. How can you answer by asking me if I downloaded some super-tactics or all these *****? I love management game and I just want to have the happiness of a victory like I known when I was playing 3 or 4 years ago.

But now, it's just impossible! I have an example, currently, I'm playing with Lorient (small squad in French Ligue 1) and I'm in 3rd position with only 5 small late points without doing any transfers cause I like their starting team and wanted to test it. I'm not in November or something like this, no I'm in end of march. I have only 7 matchs to play and the season will be over.

I seem to have been misunderstood further up. I did not say "Play without making transfers". I just said that playing within your transfer budget without skewing it with 48 month payments, and not just buying the players identified on the forum will often lead to a more balanced and challenging game.

Two points directed at opposite sides of the debate:

OP: No, most of the database researchers are not paid. They are fans of the game who volunteer to research their respective team/country/region.

Neil: I've never found the difficulty of the short-term game to be a problem, because in the first season, the AI squads/tactics reflect their real life counterparts and you have to work within the limits of the squad you have. The problem is the difficulty of the long-term game and setting your reputation to "Sunday League Footballer" doesn't really help here, because even if you start at the lowest reputation initially, your reputation will have significantly increased by the time the flaws in the long-term AI begin to show.

I seem to have been misunderstood further up. I did not say "Play without making transfers". I just said that playing within your transfer budget without skewing it with 48 month payments, and not just buying the players identified on the forum will often lead to a more balanced and challenging game.

I pretty agree with you, but something is affraid me in your post. In real life, some transferts are making with 48 month payments and it's not a problem. I think that's a good point for FM if you can do that, but when you know the tips, you can do every transfers that you want to do!

All this little tips make the game easier ...

They are fans of the game who volunteer to research their respective team/country/region.

And it is up to SI that SELL the game to be sure that this work is done and well done whatever they paid or not for this work...

OP,

Try going a Scottish 3rd division team and see how easy you find it on Sunday league rep, or a similar team/league and do the same.

Use fake players to stop you having to dispair so much that SI cannot get every single contract for every single player and non player employed at every club in the known world correct.

Use a tactic you enjoy and want to see your team playing rather than searching for a super tactic so you can moan when you find one.

Also I didn't see your answer on the question asking if you use the player search function ? Do you abuse the 48 month transfer price option ? Restrict yourself to only the options available for a real manager perhaps ?

Finally if you really are expecting perfection then you will always be disappointed. As as good as SI are they are and never will be perfect.

And it is up to SI that SELL the game to be sure that this work is done and well done whatever they paid or not for this work...

Again, if you think there are errors, point them out, or get involved as a researcher yourself. Very easy to sit on the sidelines on and criticise, and then not actually put any input in

1: No, I always do my own tactics... Quite never morale problem also, ans very easy to find the missing hole in the puzzle you're drawing with your team...

I agree that if you know what you are doing tactically and motivationally, it is very easy to over-achieve. But surely that is the point? If it were impossible for the human manager to succeed after he's learned to do everything well, then the game would be somewhat frustrating? I'm always very wary about tactics, because historically, there have been numerous super-tactics that win through exploiting ME holes. Although most of them have been patched and the ME is pretty well balanced, I'm sure it is still very possible for anyone with long-term experience in building tactics.

Do you use classic tactics or the TC? If the former, how precise are you in your slider measurements? Have you tried using the TC to see if it evens the playing field?

2: No short loans, I do not do them anymore to... Many long term loans missing in South America for example, even in Europe... And not only in low divisions or low profile countries... I find keeping Brasileirao Serie A up to date quite interesting, don't you?

At the end we received on FM Based (where our update has been downloaded since FM 2011) many thanks from polish, romanian, greek, russian, bulgarian, serbian fans and other countries I will forget there to AT LAST bring an updated DB for their countries...

I can also tell you that I worked on FM 2011 with an Italian colleague and we provided more than 1000 changes in a year just in Serie A, B and C1, because of tons of errors in staffs, contracts (co-contracts...), loans and transfers...

Again, I'm sorry if you are happy with that... I don't!

I have to say, the exactness of the database doesn't bother me very much. I'd like it to be perfect, but recognise that the whole game takes a step into fantasy from the first in-game transfer. However, I accept that it is very important for some people.

I'm very disappointing when I read your comments. How can you answer by asking me if I downloaded some super-tactics or all these *****? I love management game and I just want to have the happiness of a victory like I known when I was playing 3 or 4 years ago.

Please try to remain objective. I wasn't accusing you of anything, just trying to get to the bottom of why you find FM12 easier than FM09, for example. Personally, I think FM12 is slightly more difficult, especially since the 12.1 update. Historically, most people who massively overachieve have done so by designing tactics that exploit ME holes or using bugged corner routines, giving them a massive advantage. If you are overachieving without doing that, I'd like to know what you think makes FM12 so much easier, as I don't think it has become any easier at all over the last few years.

With regards to difficulty, I think the game is harder than it was a few years ago. I personally am fine with the difficulty currently, and I generally have been on most FM games. I guess I don't profit so much from long-term AI squad building though, because I've never been one for very long-term save games.

The database in FM probably isn't perfect, but in my experience it is a long long way ahead of the competition. SI have always done a fantastic job putting together such a comprehensive database and deserve praise for that. So what if a few transfers aren't accurate? It's by far the best database in the football game world, so I wouldn't knock it.

In terms of criticising the game, I think this letter is aiming for the wrong areas myself.

And it is up to SI that SELL the game to be sure that this work is done and well done whatever they paid or not for this work...

Unfortunately, Sports Interactive operates on a limited budget, and when you rely on volunteers, you are constrained by the number of people actually willing to volunteer. Evidently, you feel there needs to be a greater contribution. If so, volunteer and go help in the data forum. Complaining isn't going to magically give SI the funds to hire a dedicated researcher for whatever league you feel needs work.

"when you feel sad or deceived by something you love, it is painful! "

Blimey , it is only a game after all .

The game is more difficult now than in FM10 and 11. However, I don't like the way it has been made more difficult - especially the fluctuations between good and poor form. Everything you have worked on regarding team building and tactics may be undone quite suddenly, and not the least very randomly. SI should be cautious about randomizing events too much, because it takes away from the gaming experience... but at the same time the randomness must be there since this is football.

There are definitely many things that must be improved for FM13, but all in all FM12 is a good game.

Regarding the OP, I agree that many of the new elements of the game are quite shallow. I disagree that it is a problem that success is readily achievable in the game. I would rather say that if I couldn't take Bradford from League 2 to Premier League in three seasons, and then into Champions League in three seasons after that, much of the enjoyment of playing the game would be gone for me. I think it is possible for me to win PL in the current 2017-2018 season, and CL in a couple of seasons after that. The whole savegame is of course extremely unrealistic, but that is the whole point - living the dream. Taking realism too far will kill the franchise much faster than adding even more management assists and automated features... and better 3d graphics and sound effects.

I don't understand this purist approach; I have played every version of FM and I enjoyed all of them in their time. Why would newbies having success take away from your enjoyment?

I'm no great manager by any stretch of the imagination, and I've always found the balance of difficulty in FM to be one of the series' strengths- it was tough enough to make you work for your rewards, but not so harsh as to let you dream or, as BiggusD has said, take Bradford from bottom to top. In FM12, that balance is off- the game was too easy before the patch, and remains too easy after it. The problem is that doing something like that, particularly in the lower leagues, feels more and more the default gameplay style- the sense of achievement in managing to do that is lost, because there's no struggle to do so.

In this thread, Lorient are mentioned as 3rd in Ligue 1- that should be an achievement. In another recent thread (the one about "is this guy worth keeping?"), nothing was made of the fact that the manager had Brentford in the Premier League. Brentford. As I said, I'm far from a great manager- I've been sacked and relegated in previous FM's plenty of times, deservedly so. And yet so far on every game I've started on FM12 (as Dartford, Maidenhead, Gillingham and currently a fictional American team, Aurora Arrows), no matter the division or the predictions, it's been no hassle to get to the top of the table and stay there, at least for the first few seasons until you hit a wall where other clubs are significantly bigger and richer than you- and even then, you're only talking PL top 6. It just feels like the challenge of competing with teams who should be at the same level as you is missing entirely.

For me, it feels a lot like the tools that have been made available to us as managers give us too much of an advantage over the AI, which is unable or unwilling to replicate our level of involvement. Something like team talks are designed to be able to negatively or positively affect our side, but there's no depth there- it's easy to get a majority of a team to respond positively and perform better than they otherwise would have.

I think that the OP has forgotten the value of experience. For those who have been playing FM for a few years, they have gained an understanding of the match engine/morale system/transfer system.

Let's say that in FM2011 you played 50 seasons in total (different teams, careers, etc...). That is longer than any manager has ever been involved in the game for. All those lessons you learnt from FM2011 are able to be applied to FM2012. There will be small differences, and you will have to adapt as a result, but those changes will seem fewer the more experienced you are.

The develepment philosophy is very much of evolution, not revolution. Each iteration will have a number of changes designed to increase the realism as far as possible, but the core essence of the game will remain. SI can't just overhaul every module just for the sake of creating a new challenge for the consumer, as it would only create confusion and fly in the face of their ethos.

As for the database, if the scale of inaccuracy is as severe as you suggest then that is poor. I have never really noticed more than 1 or 2 errors in each release, so it hasn't affected me, and I couldn't possibly verify the scale of the problem.

I think that the OP has forgotten the value of experience. For those who have been playing FM for a few years, they have gained an understanding of the match engine/morale system/transfer system.

Let's say that in FM2011 you played 50 seasons in total (different teams, careers, etc...). That is longer than any manager has ever been involved in the game for. All those lessons you learnt from FM2011 are able to be applied to FM2012. There will be small differences, and you will have to adapt as a result, but those changes will seem fewer the more experienced you are.

The develepment philosophy is very much of evolution, not revolution. Each iteration will have a number of changes designed to increase the realism as far as possible, but the core essence of the game will remain. SI can't just overhaul every module just for the sake of creating a new challenge for the consumer, as it would only create confusion and fly in the face of their ethos.

As for the database, if the scale of inaccuracy is as severe as you suggest then that is poor. I have never really noticed more than 1 or 2 errors in each release, so it hasn't affected me, and I couldn't possibly verify the scale of the problem.

THIS!!!

Furthermore, I dont understand why the guys in the OP are talking about updating the db every day on transfermarkt.de when that will mean they have to start a new game EVERY DAY! try playing a long term game lads!! the 'up-to-date-ness' of the db becomes obsolete the minute a transfer is made by anyone during the game, as someone else has said, and I think most people are quite happy with just the 2 transfer updates either side of the transfer windows, even if it can be annoying that Steve Bruce is in charge of Sunderland when a new game is started now, i think i can deal with it!

the game is relatively easy mainly because poor AI squad building( which gets even worse the longer u play) and because the AI tactics! the database main problem is the randomness of some attributes but it's still very good and it's not a major issue!

To the OP:

If SI created the game where you need 30 years to come from BSS/N to EPL, that would be the end of the franchise. Most people play this (and other) games to break away from reality, to relax and forget the struggle of every day life. Do you think people would still play games if they were 100% realistic, i.e. realistically difficult?

Use a tactic you enjoy and want to see your team playing rather than searching for a super tactic so you can moan when you find one.

Also I didn't see your answer on the question asking if you use the player search function ? Do you abuse the 48 month transfer price option ? Restrict yourself to only the options available for a real manager perhaps ?

Finally if you really are expecting perfection then you will always be disappointed. As as good as SI are they are and never will be perfect.

No mate, I didn't use any super-tactics or everything like this. Create his own tactic is so easier that I don't need to use it for winning. To search players, I just send my recruiter over the world or competition, read them reports and choose them. I don't use the research functionnality with attributes .

And last one question, I don't abuse the 48 month transfer when I play with small club because your financial report will be ****ed up with this option. So, I just use the common functionnalities to improve my squad.

Again, if you think there are errors, point them out, or get involved as a researcher yourself. Very easy to sit on the sidelines on and criticise, and then not actually put any input in

That's what we do in our team. We fixed a big part of database every years ...

I agree that if you know what you are doing tactically and motivationally, it is very easy to over-achieve. But surely that is the point? If it were impossible for the human manager to succeed after he's learned to do everything well, then the game would be somewhat frustrating? I'm always very wary about tactics, because historically, there have been numerous super-tactics that win through exploiting ME holes. Although most of them have been patched and the ME is pretty well balanced, I'm sure it is still very possible for anyone with long-term experience in building tactics.

Do you use classic tactics or the TC? If the former, how precise are you in your slider measurements? Have you tried using the TC to see if it evens the playing field?

I agree with you about super-tactics or some corners-tactics to win every games. But in our case, we are FM fan since 13 years old. And when I was younger, it was very difficult to create his own tactic learn how it works. Now, you have the super assistant to create it, just click, click and click and your tactic is over! If you know a manager who can do that with his player, call me mate. That's why, I prefer the old tactic creator. But tactic, isn't here the real problem.

I have to say, the exactness of the database doesn't bother me very much. I'd like it to be perfect, but recognise that the whole game takes a step into fantasy from the first in-game transfer. However, I accept that it is very important for some people.

Ok I understand your point of view. But personnaly, when I play to a management game, I want to be in "real life". And if I want a fantastic game, I will buy one. So I accept that you have the option to don't use any transfers the first year, but if you do that, the second year is very funny because the others clubs buy a lot of useless players ... That's not realistic.

Please try to remain objective. I wasn't accusing you of anything, just trying to get to the bottom of why you find FM12 easier than FM09, for example. Personally, I think FM12 is slightly more difficult, especially since the 12.1 update. Historically, most people who massively overachieve have done so by designing tactics that exploit ME holes or using bugged corner routines, giving them a massive advantage. If you are overachieving without doing that, I'd like to know what you think makes FM12 so much easier, as I don't think it has become any easier at all over the last few years.

Like I said earlier, I don't use any super-tactics. For me it's really easier because lot of tips to make the game easier is present. You can buy very good player in your small squad because you are good in your championship. For example, I just take Clement Grenier from Olympique Lyonnais for free because I'm in 3rd position. But I'm only Lorient mate ... A small team in our championship! Is it realistic? The other weakness in FM is the financial report. How many directors give you a credit expansion to buy a player in January? Even if your finance are under 0, you have a expansion. Few years ago, the financial was very important for your position in the club, but now it's not really important. You can be under 0 the whole year, if you win at the end, your financial report will be good and everything is good. Seriously?

To the OP:

If SI created the game where you need 30 years to come from BSS/N to EPL, that would be the end of franchise. Most people play this (and other) games to break away from reality, to relax and forget the struggle of every day life. Do you think people would still play games if there were 100% realistic, i.e. realistically difficult?

Ok that's what I thought. Make money and money and money. I respect if you agree with that, but when I play to a game, I like challenge and not win at my first season!

To address your first point, to an extent there is a 'difficulty' setting in the game now - ask many users, if you start a game with little or not experience (say 'Sunday League Footballer') and take over a big club it will be far harder to get reactions from your players from team talks and other such things - this will make it more difficult for you to succeed until your earn the players respect.

Personally, I think this is groundbreaking, but why don't we use the motivation and man-management attributes to determine how players react to your team talks? You know, instead of reputation.

A high-profile manager may fail with a lower-league side if he can't motivate his players. A high-profile manager isn't guaranteed to do well with a lower-league side. I'd argue reputation means little in management (except perhaps when finding a new job).

I don't think this makes sense. Pep Guardiola made the entire Barcelona side respect him within months, and he had little experience at the top level in management.

He was pretty highly respected as one of Barca's greatest ever players though, and was a former Spain international. If real life was FM, he would have started as a 'International Footballer'.

A better example for you to use would be either Jose Mourinho, or Andres Villas Boas.

I have to say that I have great sympathy for the OP, showing a dedication to the series along with the other signees which I fully share

However, I have to say that I do not agree on the actual points made.

I don't find the game too easy. I'm usually doing pretty well in FM (playing it since 1993) and achieve things which rl teams would probably not achieve.

On FM12 I have not yet managed to play too many seasons. I achieved 2 6th places with Newcastle in the EPL along with a League Cup win and with Leicester I'm in 2nd spot after 38 games in year 1 in my online game. That's doing very okay, but far from being boring for being too easy.

However, that just has to be part of the game. If it was just impossible to go and win the EPL with Reading within 8 years, then too many users would turn their backs on the game in disappointment. It's a game and as such it has to be easier than reality to be fun.

That being said, I do believe and support the according view, that also beyond the manager experience setting there would be further ways of including kinds of difficulty settings into the game which would only indirectly make success easier or harder to achieve and not about forcing a shot to go in or wide. These would in my view improve the game as both the hardcore and the casuals (I consider me neither of these) would enjoy the game more than they do now.

Also, I have not noticed too many incredible flaws in the db. Looking at the data fora, it seems to me that either the db is about as good as you should expect it from unpaid, but highly motivated researchers or that people just don't report the mistakes to SI if there actually were that many.

I have to say that I think the complaints about the database are a little over the top. The second that all of the data is asked to be submitted, i.e the researchers deadline, there are potentially hundreds of transfer all around the world still happening due to different league start dates, transfer windows etc. It is as accurate as they could possibly make it surely?

If you are doing all this research for your own database updates and you have worked as a researcher for SI before why aren't you passing the data to them now? Surely you would benefit everybody by taking your research to the people who could distribute it most widely. I agree that there are always some flaws in the database, particularly outside the UK (in the Netherlands in FM11 there were several cases of players being duplicated in reserve squads, I'm not sure if it's been fixed in 12), but it's hardly game-breaking stuff.

On the difficulty level I'm still very much in two minds. Since 12.1.1 I have struggled to enjoy the game for long periods because every time things seem to be going really well I hit a wall and find myself struggling for any kind of form. Are you really saying that I (and I've been playing the CM/FM series since 97/98 so I'm not a novice even if I'm by no means an expert) and others who aren't finding it as easy as you should suffer because you want a bigger challenge? There was a poll on this forum before 12.1.1 came out asking what people thought of the difficulty which ended on roughly 25% too easy, 50% about right, 25% too hard. Since most people agree that 12.1.1 raised the difficulty level to some extent are you saying that AT LEAST 75% of people should be ignored for the sake of 25%?

SI have a pretty much impossible task trying to create a game which will satisfy both veterans and novices. They are also trying to replicate a sport which is incredibly complex and do so across hundreds of leagues and nations which all have different styles and levels of ability. It really isn't as easy as you seem to think for them to tweak some settings and make the game 'more realistic'. SI aren't stupid and they are well aware of the game's flaws - they're working on it. I'm not saying the game is perfect by any means, but every year (on average) it gets a little bit better. Twenty years ago Paul and Ov Collyer didn't like the management games available so they decided to make their own. If you have so many 'grievances' with their game why not go away and make your own? You can then come back in 20 years and tell everyone how simple it was to make something better.

If you are doing all this research for your own database updates and you have worked as a researcher for SI before why aren't you passing the data to them now? Surely you would benefit everybody by taking your research to the people who could distribute it most widely. I agree that there are always some flaws in the database, particularly outside the UK (in the Netherlands in FM11 there were several cases of players being duplicated in reserve squads, I'm not sure if it's been fixed in 12), but it's hardly game-breaking stuff.

On the difficulty level I'm still very much in two minds. Since 12.1.1 I have struggled to enjoy the game for long periods because every time things seem to be going really well I hit a wall and find myself struggling for any kind of form. Are you really saying that I (and I've been playing the CM/FM series since 97/98 so I'm not a novice even if I'm by no means an expert) and others who aren't finding it as easy as you should suffer because you want a bigger challenge? There was a poll on this forum before 12.1.1 came out asking what people thought of the difficulty which ended on roughly 25% too easy, 50% about right, 25% too hard. Since most people agree that 12.1.1 raised the difficulty level to some extent are you saying that AT LEAST 75% of people should be ignored for the sake of 25%?

SI have a pretty much impossible task trying to create a game which will satisfy both veterans and novices. They are also trying to replicate a sport which is incredibly complex and do so across hundreds of leagues and nations which all have different styles and levels of ability. It really isn't as easy as you seem to think for them to tweak some settings and make the game 'more realistic'. SI aren't stupid and they are well aware of the game's flaws - they're working on it. I'm not saying the game is perfect by any means, but every year (on average) it gets a little bit better. Twenty years ago Paul and Ov Collyer didn't like the management games available so they decided to make their own. If you have so many 'grievances' with their game why not go away and make your own? You can then come back in 20 years and tell everyone how simple it was to make something better.

Absolutely fantastic post, one of the best on here for a long time.

:)I thought 2011 was hard enough lol,haven't played 2012 at great lenghth yet but judging by some of the threads/posts lots of people are finding this years game more difficult,if you make the game more difficult than it is now your in danger of losing revenue from peeps who wont bother buying it again,if some peeps are finding it to easey there needs to be another level under the"Sunday League Player",,,,,Thur Night 5 A-side Wally! lol,make them start as unemployed,the only job they'll get is the bottom club in the leagues structure they play in,with some aspects tightened up for this level,

:)I thought 2011 was hard enough lol,haven't played 2012 at great lenghth yet but judging by some of the threads/posts lots of people are finding this years game more difficult,if you make the game more difficult than it is now your in danger of losing revenue from peeps who wont bother buying it again,if some peeps are finding it to easey there needs to be another level under the"Sunday League Player",,,,,Thur Night 5 A-side Wally! lol,make them start as unemployed,the only job they'll get is the bottom club in the leagues structure they play in,with some aspects tightened up for this level,

It is -easier- in the lower leagues, not more difficult. The reason for this is that you can easily get rid of the entire squad in just two-three transfer windows and replace them with players good enough for two leagues above. You cannot do this in the top divisions. Thus, any lack of difficulty is related to AI squad building and club economy issues. There's a lot more transfers in real life than in FM, and the result is that the transfer market winner every season is you. Perfectly good players are unemployed until they retire because they simply won't sign for clubs in which they have a chance of playing first team football, and at the same time clubs aren't interested in signing the players who actually want to sign for them because those players don't have high enough reputation.