Cardiff

Are Cardiff eligible for Europe on the game as their is such a huge debate in real life?

Are Cardiff eligible for Europe on the game as their is such a huge debate in real life?

Id say they would be

Yes, all the Welsh clubs playing in England are listed as English & as such will quakify for Europe.

Maybe SI should look into this should the FA or clubs not change their relationship as it stands.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Barside:

Yes, all the Welsh clubs playing in England are listed as English & as such will quakify for Europe.

Maybe SI should look into this should the FA or clubs not change their relationship as it stands. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? becuase Toronto FC who play in the MLS are listed as canadien.

Indeed, they're preparing for the UEFA Cup final against Juventus in my game in 2015.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Premiership:

Really? becuase Toronto FC who play in the MLS are listed as canadien. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That may change if SI ever add the Canadian league.

Also Swansea and Wrexham are listed as english and Berwick are too.

I mean berwick are listed as scottish

Berwick Rangers are full members of the SFA whereas Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham et al are actually still members of the Welsh FA & are only affiliated to the English FA.

It's a quirk of the game that has these Welsh clubs listed as English, I guess it's not worth working on a specific code for a small aspect of the game.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Are Cardiff eligible for Europe on the game as their is such a huge debate in real life? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is quite a controversial topic irl. Because the are Welsh side playing in an English league the English FA are not happy that a european place would go to a Welsh team whereas it would normally be an English one. I have read in newspapers that EUFA president Michele Platini has said that if the English FA try to stop Cardiff from participating then he will do everything he can to ensure that Cardiff can play.

The FA claim they aren't allowed to give Cardiff (and Swansea and Wrexham, and any other non-English club playing in the Football League) berths into Europe. However, Vaduz who play in Lichtenstein's league but play in Switzerland have been allowed, as have AS Monaco (France/Monaco), Derry City (represented the Republic of Ireland despite playing in Northern Island). In fact, TNS have played in Europe for Wales despite playing their games in England.

I think that UEFA are planning to give Cardiff a wildcard entry (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/cardiff_city/7294461.stm) but I also think it is possible that Cardiff could play the winners of the Welsh league (TNS?) for their spot. TNS once offered Liverpool a match for their European spot after Liverpool won the Champions League (boo!) and finished fifth, because TNS were unlikely to go far in the competition and would give Welsh football more exposure by simply playing Liverpool.

However, I'd imagine the wildcard would be for the first round of the UEFA Cup, as I'm not sure there's enough space for the third-round qualifiers as the FA may simply nominate the runners-up or the next highest-placed Premiership finisher if Cardiff do win.

And good luck coding this into the game! I think to keep things simple, it's so much easier to consider Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham English teams and leave all the politics out of it.

x42, all the clubs you have mentioned are full members of the FA's they are representing in Europe.

So long as the Welsh clubs playing in England opt to hold their membership with the Welsh FA they shouldn't be allowed to represent the English FA in continental competitions, from what I've read & heard the clubs do get a number of benefits from not being English FA members & decided that the chances of European qualification was too small to consider switching.

On that basis why should the rule now be changed? Cardiff made their choice a number of years ago & at the start of every season they would have the option to cut their ties with the Welsh FA now that this decision hasn't worked out in their favour the moaning starts. The English FA are not the bad guys in this case, Cardiff were happy with the situation at the start of the season because in August it worked to their advantage, now they must accept all the consequences of that decision good or bad just like every single person & business does whenever decisions are made.

Well said Barside. Cardiff want their cake and eat it. All the welsh sides affiliated with the WFA but playing in England should have to choose one or t'other. If they wanna stay Welsh they should play in Wales and qualify through their league.

Thank-you nelson, I was beginning to think I was on my own in not agreeing with the 'poor little old Cardiff' issue.

Their choice, tough mammories.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by trekman:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Are Cardiff eligible for Europe on the game as their is such a huge debate in real life? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is quite a controversial topic irl. Because the are Welsh side playing in an English league the English FA are not happy that a european place would go to a Welsh team whereas it would normally be an English one. I have read in newspapers that EUFA president Michele Platini has said that if the English FA try to stop Cardiff from participating then he will do everything he can to ensure that Cardiff can play. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Platinis a dick he wants to stop Spain England and Italy having 4 champion league spots and give france 4.

It's not a 'poor Cardiff' issue. Cardiff have been playing in the English Football League since 1920 and a few years ago they were given the option of returning to the Welsh Premier League system or remaining in the English pyramid. They opted to stay in the English pyramid, which meant that their ability to qualify for Europe via the Welsh Cup was then closed off to them (by the Welsh FA and FIFA/UEFA). They can now ONLY qualify for Europe via the English league or cup system. That's not a sudden 'this season' thing, it's been that way for a number of years, it's only now they've progressed to the point where the discrepancy may need to be finally sorted.

So yes, they made their choice - to stay loyal to and throw their lot in with the English system. It seems churlish now to deny them a spot in Europe having made that choice...

Fair point Elrawkum (have you selected your name for its keyboard cramping qualities?). Cardiff have been loyal to the English game and deserve recognition but as an English club. When they play in europe they will be representing England, undeniably, which would sour the whole escapade for any rightminded Taffs.

Except Cardiff wouldn't be representing neither England nor Wales bu just Cardiff... or perhaps representing both - England by dint of the league they play in and Wales by nationality - it doesn't have to be such a one-or-the-other thing.

The situation is exactly the same for Berwick. If they ever got into Europe they would be an English club representing the Scottish Football League. If Cardiff get in it'll be a Welsh club representing the English Football League. Simple. No Xenophobia/petty nationalism needed.

I believe the Berwick situation is different as unlike Cardiff they are full members of the SFA & have no links to Soho Square.

Aren't Cardiff still members of the FAW?

They are governed by the FAW, but are associate members of the FA. Basically what this amounts to is any discipline/club regulatory issues are resolved by the FAW, but since they chose to decline the FAW's invitation to join the WPL, unlike other members of the FAW they (and the other Welsh teams playing in the English pyramid) cannot now qualify for European competitions via the Welsh Cup (although they can field teams - usually they field reserves for the experience - if they were to win, the runner-up/next in line would qualify for Europe).

Surely, the important thing is where Cardiff play their football, not under which FA's jurisdiction they fall ... They gain absolutely no favours from being members of the FAW, and in fact, by choosing the English pyramid, they've made it much harder for themselves to qualify for Europe. Who knew? Cardiff are under the FAW simply because Cardiff is a Welsh City - it's the capital!

Put simply, if you don't want to give Cardiff, Swansea or Wrexham the rewards they would earn for winning the league or cups in the system they actually play in then they shouldn't have been allowed to play in them in the first place. Put up or shut up basically...

The entire argument for excluding them reeks of xenophobia, sour grapes and plain bad sportsmanship frankly.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elrawkum:

They are governed by the FAW, but are associate members of the FA. Basically what this amounts to is any discipline/club regulatory issues are resolved by the FAW, but since they chose to decline the FAW's invitation to join the WPL, unlike other members of the FAW they (and the other Welsh teams playing in the English pyramid) cannot now qualify for European competitions via the Welsh Cup (although they can field teams - usually they field reserves for the experience - if they were to win, the runner-up/next in line would qualify for Europe).

Surely, the important thing is where Cardiff play their football, not under which FA's jurisdiction they fall ... They gain absolutely no favours from being members of the FAW, and in fact, by choosing the English pyramid, they've made it much harder for themselves to qualify for Europe. Who knew? Cardiff are under the FAW simply because Cardiff is a Welsh City - it's the capital!

Put simply, if you don't want to give Cardiff, Swansea or Wrexham the rewards they would earn for winning the league or cups in the system they actually play in then they shouldn't have been allowed to play in them in the first place. Put up or shut up basically...

The entire argument for excluding them reeks of xenophobia, sour grapes and plain bad sportsmanship frankly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Of Course they gain favours by being members of the FAW as they get off very lightly when it comes to disciplinary matters.

Really? You have examples? You can give us a comparable situation where Cardiff got off lighter than an English club for a disciplinary breach? Or is this just more knee-jerk xenophobic nonsense with no basis in fact?

Do you seriously think the FAW are any less serious about doing their jobs than the English FA (especially since their place on the IFAB was questioned) or do you think only the English FA are capable of running an association competently? The same FA who let blatant bungs and player tapping go on for years, the same FA who appointed Sven and Steve, the same FA who let Man Utd opt out of the FA cup to play some nothing games elsewhere, the same FA who let West Ham get away with clearly illegal transfer shenanigans without meaningful punishment? I could go on and on. Puh-lease. The FAW have an exemplary record when it comes to keeping their clubs in line with FIFA/UEFA rules, and are generally known for being very strict with their member clubs. Can the English FA same the same? In all cases?

If you just don't like the fact that a Welsh club might win then say so, just don't keep coming up with half-cocked, barely disguised racist excuses...

I simply can't believe there are people out there who would begrudge a team qualifying for Europe from the league and cups they play in (and have been doing so for a very long time) on a technicality - like I said; it absolutely stinks of xenophobia and bad sportsmanship.

Whatever happened to the English trait of fair play eh?

if the yare let in the league they should be allowed to qualify, its not taking a place away from anyone because they would get it fair and sqare, by beating the oposition.

btw if they get a wildcard does this meanthey still give the normal ammount of places out and then an extra to cardiff.

anyway after all this they will only go out in the first round. barnsley would have won it.

Oh well, they have been given teir place according to the BBC and quite rightly too. I found it really irritating that some people actually contested the fact they should be given the chance, especially given the whole mess of Liverpool being allowed to enter when they came 5th, at the expense of a Romanian team. This was far more unfair yet widely accepted.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elrawkum:

The entire argument for excluding them reeks of xenophobia, sour grapes and plain bad sportsmanship frankly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nothing xenophobic about my opinion I simply believe that rules shouldn't be changed mid-competition just because they don't suit you.

I fully endorse that Cardiff et al should be allowed to represent the English FA in Europe but they should go about in the correct manner & request the rules are looked at for next season onwards, in my mind asking for the rules to be overlooked/changed before then is akin to reloading FM after a defeat until you win the game.

Cardiff didn't ask any such thing. When the route to Europe was closed off to them a few years ago it was simply accepted that now they could only qualify via the English pyramid that that would be that. It's only this season where they actually have a chance of doing just that that the English FA have gone "hang on a minute", not the other way around. This is why Platini was going to get involved - because it was an oversight on the FA's part not to have resolved this earlier...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Barside:

Nothing xenophobic about my opinion I simply believe that rules shouldn't be changed mid-competition just because they don't suit you.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not even if the oversight was on the FA's part and common sense and fair play should dictate a fair outcome? It sounds to me like you don't want the rules to change because it doesn't suit you, nothing else. As Nomis said, I didn't see the English queueing up to complain about the rules being changed mid-season to accommodate Liverpool...

Still smacks of xenophobia to me, sorry.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Barside:

Nothing xenophobic about my opinion I simply believe that rules shouldn't be changed mid-competition just because they don't suit you.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not even if the oversight was on the FA's part and common sense and fair play should dictate a fair outcome? It sounds to me like you don't want the rules to change because it doesn't suit you, nothing else. As Nomis said, I didn't see the English queueing up to complain about the rules being changed mid-season to accommodate Liverpool...

Still smacks of xenophobia to me, sorry.

What i Xenophobia?

xenophobia noun intense fear or dislike of foreigners or strangers.

i meant is

oh i feel that way of the turkish no wait thats just hate

Well that's not cool. But at least you're honest, unlike some...

what a turk tried 2 drown me when i was in turkey

So is that a reason to hate all Turks? Ridiculous. But no more ridiculous I suppose than wanting to deny Cardiff entry into Europe through the league and cup system they play for no other reason than because they're Welsh...

Perhaps a Welshman tried to drown Barside too - although it's not hard to see why

in my opinion it is a reason to hate all turks plus they sold me a dodgy ps2 game!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Barside:

Nothing xenophobic about my opinion I simply believe that rules shouldn't be changed mid-competition just because they don't suit you.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That you wasn't directed at you personally, as a Scottish Colchester United supporter I have no axe to grind with Cardiff. On the Liverpool issue I was against the solution to that problem at the time.

Final thought; Are the English FA incompetent? Yes of course they are. Are Cardiff an innocent victim of circumstance? Not really because they should have considered this possability, due diligence & all that.

So the obvious solution is to do the right thing and make a ruling based on common sense and fair play... right? Or do you think that the rules that the English FA should have changed years ago should be held against Cardiff now, just because? It isn't down to Cardiff to make sure the English FA's rules cover this, why would they unless it came up?

The fact that Cardiff are considering taking the English FA to court over this leads me to assume (I don't know the full story tbh) that when the Welsh FA ended the English-based Welsh clubs route to Europe via their competitions that something must have been said to the English FA then. I do recall a statement from the FAW along the lines to that effect, but can't find it now to refer you to it.

You're still looking for tiny technicalities to justify your stance - give me one good reason why they should be denied. I've yet to see one...

I don't agree with the phrase tiny technicality when refering to an FA bylaw that I can only assume all parties would have been aware of when they entered into the present agreement.

The matter is not a guideline & as such open to a subjective viewpoint, the rule is either met or it is not. I've already said that these clubs should not in the long term be excluding from European competition but the ruling that covers this would need to be looked at the appropriate time & should only take effective from the start of next season.

Another issue that has been lost in all this is what about the club that finishes 6th in the EPL should Cardiff not win the final? Under the present situation I guess the UEFA cup slot would be awarded to them, the mid-season alteration to the rule would mean that said club will be penalised by being denied an entry that by rights should be theirs. Is it fair to tell the board, players & fans of that club that a UEFA cup place which under the rules at the start of the season should be filled by them is being taken away because the FA &/or Cardiff had not read the terms & conditions?

Going back to a previous point regarding the Liverpool CL issue the FA stuck by their rule of the top 4 getting entry & that forced UEFA to give Liverpool a wildcard entry, I'm not sure who instigated the change that gives defending champions entry at the expense of 4th place should they fail to qualify via their league position but this only took effect from the following season. I fully expect the FA to be true to form & force UEFA to make a decision by refusing Cardiff entry under their allocation.

I guess you're not familiar with the term 'oversight'. It was the FA's. They were made aware at the time years ago when the FAW's and UEFA's rulings meant that Cardiff's (and the other teams like them) could no longer qualify through the Welsh system. They should have looked at this then; they've even admitted that. They've already agreed to look at the situation now in light of this and the hope is that they will make a common sense ruling. Next season is no good when no right thinking individual would be happy if Cardiff missed out or UEFA had to step in to do something about it.

Your point about the 6th spot doesn't come into it. Whoever wins the final, be it Portsmouth or Cardiff should have the relevant spot. As it should be, as it's always been. No club will be banking on getting Cardiff's slot if they win it. Why would they? The FA Cup winner gets into Europe. Isn't that how it's always worked? Or will you continue to look for technicalities to deny them just because they happen to be Welsh?

Let me boil it down to one simple point:

Would it be fair if Cardiff were denied a spot in Europe for winning the FA Cup?

Well said Barside. This has become a very muddy issue and certain people making groundless accusations of racism and xenophobia doesn't help to clear the waters. I don't see how I can be racist or xenophobic against my fellow countrymen, after all we are all British.

At the end of the day it's a question of fairness within the existing rules of the competition.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elrawkum:

The FA Cup winner gets into Europe. Isn't that how it's always worked? Or will you continue to look for technicalities to deny them just because they happen to be Welsh? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If Pompey finnish 5th (which is in the realms of posibility) and win the FA cup then Cardiff would get into the UEFA cup as runners up instead of the team that finnishes 6th.

Only a small technicallity, I know, but Everton, Villa, etc... may not see it that way.

Please stop referring to the issue as an English/Welsh one, as I said I'm not English (apart from a small percentage on my mother’s side which also includes a sizeable contingent who live in Bedwas) so this has nothing to do with nationality, TBH having Cardiff representing England could be beneficial as it may cause a temporary drop in England’s UEFA coefficient. (That's the Scotsman talking )

As for what is fair I guess my view is born out of the industry that I work in where the contract is everything. Cardiff should have been aware of what impact playing in England but remaining under the FAW banner could have in the future, the FA rules & bylaws are/were available to them. Any of the effected clubs could have asked for a change or review before the competition started which the FA would in most likelihood have agreed to due to the low probability of the scenario arising in the short term, this is what matters to me. The world isn't fair, never has been never will be.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, shake hands, have a drink & talk about something else.

To clarify my 6th place team point this is subject to Portsmouth finishing 5th for those of you that hadn't spotted the glaring omission.

I don't think that anybody is disputing that Cardiff are essentially hoping (not requesting)for a rule change (if it becomes an issue after the final) but the point is that in the current situation Cardiff (also Swansea, Wrexham, Merthyr Tydfil, Newport County and Colwyn Bay)cannot under any circumstances ever play in any european competition, representing any country. This includes winning the Premier League and or FA and League Cups.

Given that the Welsh League was set up after all these clubs had joined the English pyramid structure (as there was no other choice at the time of thier respective foundings) they are being punished for not abandoning the league structure that they had previously committed to. Also the Welsh league was inevitably going to be a lower standard of football even if the League clubs had joined so it would have been a very difficult decision to justify to fans.

I, for one, hope that the whether Cardiff win or not on the 17th that the legacy of this great Cup run can be that these clubs are all able to look forward to the same reward if they achieve something that would net any other team a european place.

Cardiff, along with the other Welsh teams, have been loyal to the English FA and deserve recognition. But it has to be done within the existing rules. Next season the rules should be reviewed and changed accordingly, but not mid-season when it could affect other clubs European expectations.

In my opinion Welsh teams playing in England should be associated solely with the English FA, effectively making them English clubs in all but location.

This harping on about 'within the existing rules': I guess you didn't read my points about the fact that the existing rules wouldn't be the existing rules if the FA had taken their fingers out of their arses years ago and dealt with it when they should have.

It is the English FA's failure that this hasn't been resolved before now, NOT Cardiff's. It is not Cardiff's place to tell the FA how to run their association. Everyone knew the rules about the Welsh clubs playing in England changed years ago. The FA have ADMITTED they were going to look at this years ago, but said as it hadn't really come up, they just hadn't gotten around to it. Now they have to. A little late, but there it is. You want to deny Cardiff until next season because of the FA's oversight when the opportunity will have passed? How very convenient.

I also love the irony of being asked not to refer to this as an English/Welsh thing when that's exactly what I've been trying to say all along to you guys. It SHOULDN'T be an English/Welsh thing. As a Welshman I have no problem at all differentiating between my nationality and playing in the English leagues. No split personality here, no identity crisis. It just is what it is. It's you lot who have taken issue with the possibility of a Welsh team taking a precious English team's place (even if said hypothetical team don't actually earn it). THEY WILL NOT BE TAKING ANYONE'S PLACE - they will either earn that place or not. That's it - they should be treated exactly the same as any other club entering the FA Cup. THAT is the issue and whatever justification you want to use for wanting to exclude Cardiff, it would simply be grossly unfair if they weren't allowed to.

I can see no amount of common sense or reasoning will change your minds; not fairness, not incompetence on the FA's part, not good sportsmanship and not whether something is right or wrong. Just 'them's the rules, tough titty Welshies'.

I give up. You stick to your adherence to an old out-of-date rule that the FA forgot to update if it makes you feel more secure in your little Englander ways. Bugger fair play, sod good sportsmanship, and forget about earning the right fair and square.

If you can't see how utterly narrow-minded and mean-spirited you sound then I refuse to waste any further time on this. I'm done here.

I couldn't care less about where the club are from, be it Wales, Scotland or Mexico as far as I'm concerned this is not an issue of nationality so please stop assuming as such.

At no point have I said Cardiff should not be entered because they are a load of livestock fiddlers (apologies for being crass), I've already said I didn't like the Liverpool scenario & at the time I fully endorsed the entry of Everton because they finished 4th & that was the means of qualification that the clubs accepted at the start of the season, now as then it was an oversight or worse an assumption by all parties that caused the problem.

Now considering the above example relates to two English clubs & that I'm offering a consistent opinion I trust you with accept my motives are not driven by any racial bias my argument is about teams not liking a certain set of rules when they penalise (TBH no-one does) but again I have to go back to the point that Cardiff should also have been aware of this issue, if they felt in the long term it would be a problem they should have dealt with it proactively & requested council with the FA years ago. Saying the other guy should have sorted it out strikes me as either naive or any exercise is shifting blame (it is this aspect that really gets my goat).

No welsh club should EVER be allowed to qualify for Europe via the FA Cup for the simple reason the the FAW NEVER allowed the two English clubs (Shrewsbury & Hereford) who won the Welsh Cup after it was given a Cup Winners Cup place to play in Europe.

The FAW set this precident, the FA now must stick to it and not let UEFA bully them into telling them who they can and can't put forward into Europe.