Error in game ruins my club........

in real life it is CARDIFF CITY who own their stadium. however in the game cardiff pay rent on the stadium.

i asked the owners to buy the stadium, to which they agree, this then costs me £25m, even though part of the clubs loans are for the £40m stadium we OWN. once we have purchased the club, the club then become a financial ruin, the chairman dato leaves, which is strange as he is just 1 of 2 guys who own around 40-49% of our club, the other being vincent tan, who has around $1billion.

so then the board starts accepting stupid offers for my players to cover my debts, i get bugger all transfer fee's and my targets get unrealisticaly high regarding little money

I'd feel your pain too mate, i'd have Ninian Park back anyday! Not a day goes by where i dont think about or miss that place!

in real life it is CARDIFF CITY who own their stadium. however in the game cardiff pay rent on the stadium.

i asked the owners to buy the stadium, to which they agree, this then costs me £25m, even though part of the clubs loans are for the £40m stadium we OWN. once we have purchased the club, the club then become a financial ruin, the chairman dato leaves, which is strange as he is just 1 of 2 guys who own around 40-49% of our club, the other being vincent tan, who has around $1billion.

so then the board starts accepting stupid offers for my players to cover my debts, i get bugger all transfer fee's and my targets get unrealisticaly high regarding little money

Cardiff City do not own the stadium.

Its owned by a company called Cardiff City Stadium Ltd which is a separate limited company although I suspect some of their directors will also be directors of Cardiff City FC.

Cardiff City FC I imagine funded part of the stadium build and will have a lease agreement in place paying rent. However from a legal point of view these are two separate companies and its usually done like this to protect the stadium business should the football club run into financial difficulties.

The stadium is managed by Cardiff City Stadium Ltd., which is owned by Cardiff City Football Club Holdings Ltd.

not quite sure, but doesnt that mean the club own the stadium, as we took out loans to pay for the entire build of the stadium, we do have a 125 year lease on the land however we do not pay rent on that land

The stadium is managed by Cardiff City Stadium Ltd., which is owned by Cardiff City Football Club Holdings Ltd.

not quite sure, but doesnt that mean the club own the stadium, as we took out loans to pay for the entire build of the stadium, we do have a 125 year lease on the land however we do not pay rent on that land

I haven't looked but Cardiff City Football Club Holdings Ltd probably own Cardiff City Stadium Ltd & Cardiff City FC as well as maybe other limited companies.

Although they are sister companies the club do not legally own the stadium and hence they pay rent to CCS Ltd.

im really confused now, if vincent tan, owns cardiff city, well 49%, more shares than anyone. and Cardiff City Football Club Holdings LTD owns Cardiff City Stadium LTD. then who is the owner paying the rent to ? because in real life we dont pay rent, because this has become a big debate in wales, because swansea city's liberty stadium is council owned, and swansea still havent paid rent, and cardiff own their own, stadium,

Whichever way it's legally done, the money shouldn't go out of the club the way it does in OP's example. Why would the club pay its sister company £25m and go bankrupt as a result? The club is paying back the loans taken out to buy the stadium yet has no ownership rights? Something isn't quite right with the research there.

Whichever way it's legally done' date=' the money shouldn't go out of the club the way it does in OP's example. Why would the club pay its sister company £25m and go bankrupt as a result? The club is paying back the loans taken out to buy the stadium yet has no ownership rights? Something isn't quite right with the research there.[/quote']

Research looks right its just that FM doesn't have the ability to handle the complicated nature of company ownership & finances.

In real life there is no way that Cardiff City FC would purchase the stadium at this stage. The loans taken out were probably not to buy the stadium but to pay for the 125 year lease. CCS Ltd then used this money to build the stadium.

im really confused now, if vincent tan, owns cardiff city, well 49%, more shares than anyone. and Cardiff City Football Club Holdings LTD owns Cardiff City Stadium LTD. then who is the owner paying the rent to ? because in real life we dont pay rent, because this has become a big debate in wales, because swansea city's liberty stadium is council owned, and swansea still havent paid rent, and cardiff own their own, stadium,

Ok in simple terms from the brief look I've had.

Vincent Tann owns Cardiff City Football Club Holdings Ltd.

Cardiff City Football Club Holdings Ltd own Cardiff City Stadium Ltd & Cardiff City FC

Cardiff City Stadium Ltd own the stadium.

Cardiff City FC rent the stadium from Cardiff City Stadium Ltd.

right, but then if we are taking out a £25m loan to buy the stadium, who are we paying for it, and who is taking the loan out, because that will mean our owner is borrowing money, from the club, to give to himself, to give the stadium, to the club which i thought was technically illegal ? or am i way off

Ok I've found a set of accounts for Cardiff City Football Club (Holdings) Ltd from May 2010 and from a quick glance over them I'm not 100% which company owns the stadium. I also can't quickly identify specific rental payments.

I don't have time to study them in detail but if someone wants to have a look they are here: http://cardiffcitystadium.co.uk/CCFC%20Holdings%20May%202010%20financial%20statements.pdf

Page 18 shows the four companies that Cardiff City Football Club (Holdings) Ltd own. Those being: Cardiff City Football Club Ltd, Cardiff City Stadium Ltd, Cardiff City Premier Seating & Cardiff City Park & Ride Ltd.

right, but then if we are taking out a £25m loan to buy the stadium, who are we paying for it, and who is taking the loan out, because that will mean our owner is borrowing money, from the club, to give to himself, to give the stadium, to the club which i thought was technically illegal ? or am i way off

In terms of FM it doesn't recognise anyone except the football club and is unaware that the club is owned by the same people as the stadium.

All FM sees is that the stadium is rented and you have the option to buy it which obviously wouldn't happen to Cardiff in real life.

thanks couger2010, just to confirm is this a mistake in fm then as regards to having to buy the stadium ? if so, any idea where i post it please

You can use the editor to very quickly tick the box that says the stadium is owned by you as well. It will only work for new games though.

To be honest, I'm not sure Cardiff City should be paying rent, since the overall group structure is designed to isolate the stadium and club, which protects each other somewhat if the club runs into financial or legal trouble. The group as a whole owns the stadium and club - the rent goes out of one company and into another, so the net cashflow in or out of the club is zero.

I'm guessing Cardiff City Football Club Holdings Ltd. holds no substantial assets except for the club and stadium and is just setup for convenience purposes - in other words, if Cardiff City (the football club) purchases Messi for £100m, then the group as a whole loses £100m in cash but gains a (theoretical) £100m player. In other words, we can almost treat the club's ownership (in FM) as if it were one single entity.

It's not like this is unusual... Manchester United's debt doesn't actually lie on the club, but on one or several of the holding companies above it. So Manchester United in theory doesn't have a lot of debt, but of course, in FM, it has to be represented with the bond debt because FM doesn't even try to represent company structures. On the other hand, A.C. Milan's is a little complex because Milan's immediate parents are Finvest, which own many other companies - these other companies, such as Mediaset, generate a lot of income in themselves and cross-company cash transfers are a lot more complex to analyse. It's hard to isolate what Milan's debt is, for example.

Depending on the rent and if you could see the purchase cost the you could do simple maths to see if its worth it. Sadly (or not) this is not a game called Financial Law and Football Manager.

It it has been me I would have kept the money and paid the rent but that's with hindsight

i do like paying £1 rent rather than £25m just to buy a stadium which is already owned but the club