Is players' development predetermined?

Do training and in-game football actually have an impact on how a player develops or does he follow a preset path regardless of what you do with him?

Of course I know attributes can be changed with training, tutoring and match time (or lack thereof), but I wonder how much of an impact, if any, do such factors have on the direction of his development.

I mean, if I sign a rather defensive full back, not particularly pacey either, how many chances do I have to turn him into a good (or passable) attacking wing back? Provided he has enough PA left to achieve my goals, I think it should be possible, although my past experiences with FM (and Genie Scout as well) seem to hint otherwise.

From what I've seen over the years it looks like even the most talented prospect just gets better in areas where he's already good but he'll struggle to gain anything significant in areas that could use some improvement...

It's frustrating because most newgens are potentially great but have at least one terrible flaw [some are slow, some are just "stupid", some can't treat the ball properly...] that can't be fixed in an acceptable way, despite having more than enough PA left to accomplish that.

So the question is: is it really worth elaborating personalized training schedules, assigning specific focus on an attribute? Does it make a difference or the "octagon" of a 18yo player will still have the same shape, just bigger, in 5 or 10 years?

You can get from below average to decent is some stats if you focus training.

But it would be unrealistic to do what you want : trains a slow defensive fullback into Dani Alves.

The easiest way to shape a player is to start of with someone balanced, and train into the stats you want.

Different attributes have different weightings in regard to the position the player is playing in. It is easier for a Defender to improve his tackling than his finishing and likewise it is easier for a Striker to improve his finishing than his tackling. Physical attributes need more CA points to improve (hence some poachers with 19 ACC, 19 PAC and 11 FIN are rated better than a poacher with 14 FIN but 15 ACC and 15 PAC). To raise a key attribute from 16 to 17 requires more CA than 14 to 15.

With this in mind it would be best to retrain a MR/L to play has a DR/L rather than the other way round. To make full use of re-training positions it is best done when the player is young and hopefully they have a high versatility rating (which is hidden).

The AI tend to stick to the default training schedules which are more general so defenders will only be trained on the more defensive attributes etc. We can create individual Schedules to help improve a player's weakness but if the weakness is to great, it will be a worthless exercise because it would take to long to improve the weakness to an average level nevermind a good level.

Unless you are playing with a team that has the top level facilities, top level coaching, top level match experience increases will not be drastic, unless the player has the right mental attributes ie. Determination, Professionalism, Ambition, Work Rate (I feel these are all important, some just think Determination and Professionalism are important).

Even though we have seen it in real-life for example Gareth Bale and Fabio Coentrao moving forward from full-Backs to become good Wingers in FM it rarely happens, I find its more backwards retraining strikers to become midfielders, midfielders to become defenders. It all about re-distributing CA points.

So depending on the players weakness and the players mental states changing a players style can be achieved.

It also depends where their flaws lie. If you have a potentially great attacking full-back who lacks crossing, that's far more easily fixable than if you have a potentially great trequartista who lacks flair.

But yeah, if you get to a player on the day he arrives in your youth intake, decide what you need him for, ensure he plays in the position you want him to learn, set up individual youth training regimes and training focuses for him that you regularly monitor and adjust, make sure he is tutored by determined professionals, and then continue that level of micromanagement into your senior squad, then with a bit of luck (and good facilities, good staff, and regular match experience), you can shape what he becomes.

It's a lot of work, but it's also the most satisfying part of the game, to the extent that once I have a good system in place, I'm unlikely to buy anyone over the age of 21 ever again.

I know I can't turn a run-of-the-mill fullback into Dani Alves...

But it's a bit frustrating when young players with potential seem to be stuck on a predetermined path of development, and even the most focused training can't change things much.

If Conditioning training with focus on Speed/Strength can't raise the specific attribute by more than 2 points in 2 years, despite the player having plenty of PA left it's a bit baffling.

P.S. If we're "free" to train our players, what's the "show potential attributes" option in Genie Scout based on? Is it a "most likely scenario with standard training"?

Physical stats are hardest to train for that reason.

(Well, technically mental stats are the hardest to deliberately 'train', but physical stats are the hardest to improve over the course of a player's career.)

You can coach someone to sprint faster. It's not particularly difficult and you can see pretty large improvement if you work with the right people. Not forgetting if you put the effort in to lose weight and improve your leg muscles and work on fast twitch fibres, very quickly you can significantly increase someone's speed. As with strength or jumping with the right training and coaching speed can be improved. I would agree that large increases in speed in fm could be pretty damaging in terms of pa and ca. The current system has it right. With good aerobic coaching, facilities and individual focus you can see improvements.

With some players I have been able to get a massive improvement in certain areas and others not so much. I suppose there is an element of realism there. The really very good young players with high professionalism and the right training can be moulded very well depending on what stage they are at in their development.

I don't think speed should be an attribute that changes much no matter what the training is, some players are just never going to be quick. One or two points up is a good improvement imo, anything more and its a bit unrealistic.

This game its just a matter of developing players with high PA. And making sure they reach the highest PA possible.

Players who have low PA, no matter how much training you give will always remain crap. I would like to see dynamic PA with certain players with high determination and proper development turn into a decent player even though their initial PA is low.

I've always wanted to do something drastic like turn a striker into a left back or something like that.

The AI tend to stick to the default training schedules which are more general so defenders will only be trained on the more defensive attributes etc. We can create individual Schedules to help improve a player's weakness but if the weakness is to great, it will be a worthless exercise because it would take to long to improve the weakness to an average level nevermind a good level.

Notionally this year, with the individual player focus training, the AI should be much better at sorting out those players who are great but for a crippling weakness or two (like the proverbial world-class CB who can't jump).

I'd be interested if anyone has experience of this being true? I haven't played far enough into the game future to tell.

I've always wanted to do something drastic like turn a striker into a left back or something like that.

Over the years I've turned a lot of DMs into full-backs or ball-playing defenders, and a lot of strikers into wingers. To do what you want would require them having some strange attributes to start with.

Physical stats are hardest to train for that reason.

(Well, technically mental stats are the hardest to deliberately 'train', but physical stats are the hardest to improve over the course of a player's career.)

The physical attributes have always been the easiest to improve for me :s

It all depends what you want to do with a player, i have a regen at the moment, took him in at 16, a full back but he had dribbling 8 and crossing 5, now at 21 his dribbling is 14 and crossing 16, all i have done is put him on my full back training schedule and individual focus on both those attributes, if the player has the potential you can make huge changes to him.

Must confess I have always wondered this. Have a lad Dominic Vose at West Ham who in FM11 apparently was a bit of a wonderkid. However in 12 I have played a long term game and he is now 23 and rated no more than a decent player and his stats have hardly changed since he was 18.

Must confess I have always wondered this. Have a lad Dominic Vose at West Ham who in FM11 apparently was a bit of a wonderkid. However in 12 I have played a long term game and he is now 23 and rated no more than a decent player and his stats have hardly changed since he was 18.

Well, three things must be in place for a player to reach his potential:

Professionality and Ambition (+ Determination and other hidden mental attributes)

He must play competitive (for his level) football and he must play well

Good training facilities (+ good coaches and training schedules)

Basically (and probably obviously), the younger you start the training, the more difference you can actually make to his development.

Over the years I've turned a lot of DMs into full-backs or ball-playing defenders, and a lot of strikers into wingers. To do what you want would require them having some strange attributes to start with.

haha i did this in real life, to myself this year. I converted to playing at right back and i can tell you that the skill set isn't overly different

Basically (and probably obviously), the younger you start the training, the more difference you can actually make to his development.

Which reminds me: one feature I'd love to see is the ability to instruct your youth team coach about which players to play and where, without having to take charge of the side yourself. I should be able to tell my minion to play that young ST in AML, thank you very much, because that's what I'll need him to be by the time he reaches the senior squad.