3D match engine - frustrating

I've recently downloaded the demo of 2012, and once again, the match engine frustrates me.

So far, I've played one game of Man United vs. their reserves, just to get a feel for it. The things I really wanted to see where players playing like individuals, and the match looking reasonably realistic with the changes I made mid-game making a visual difference.

On the first point, I played a front three of Rooney, Berbatov and Welbeck. Now, I'd be expecting Berbatov to be lazy, run slowly, but have the ball stick to him like glue, and either play simple passes or extravagant flicks or clever passes. I'd be expecting Rooney to be bullish, get the ball from deep (which I'd set in his instructions) and run past players, almost pushing them aside like a bulldozer, and being more accurate than not with edge of the area shots, and when he lost the ball, he'd tackle back straight away or give chase the length of the pitch if necessary. I'd be expecting Welbeck to be gangly, fast, but poor control, almost like a Paulo Wanchope type character.

If put through one on one, Berbatov would try chipping the keeper or doing some audacious. Rooney would probably just smash it and Welbeck would probably try and round the keeper.

Those individual character traits are just examples, but I'd be expecting them to play slightly different, and as a result, I can give them specific instructions to fit.

Watching the 3D screen, I don't really get a sense of that.

• Berbatov runs at the same pace as everyone else (which is insanely slow) and I never once saw him spin away from trouble or look creative.
  
• Rooney would run with the ball, but get tackled and then immediately stop moving and stand there and watch. The opponent would have a minute to compose himself before playing a pass while Rooney literally stood 2 feet away and watched. Why wasn't he biting at his heels, sliding in, pushing him off the ball, or tracking back?
  
• Welbeck did have poor control, the ball did often bounce off him awkwardly so that was pretty realistic. But oddly, for a player with a direct style, when he was put through one on one, he'd often head towards the corner flag, then literally stop still, and wait for everyone to catch up before getting tackled. He basically looked confused!
  

There are some good points. Giggs played like Giggs - he ran at people, dribbed past a few, and sent in early and accurate crosses. I could tell he was Giggs without the name so that was good. Park Ji Sung ran with the ball with his head down before stopping and looking up to play a pass. Annoying, but realistic, so that was good. Carrick sat in front of the back 4 (without being asked) and played quarterback style passes which was good to see. I absolutely love it when FM players use their common sense and play to their talents without me expressingly instructing it.

My main issue is the complete lack of urgency. It seems like when 2 players are "active" (i.e., the ball is next to them), they move but everyone else around them is stationary. I hate watching the ball move towards Rooney and watching him not react until the ball is right on him, or more likely, a defender has got back. Rooney should be running full pelt, knocking the ball past people, beating them for pace or power, and almost never stop moving. I don't get that urgency through watching the screen.

And my main bugbear is back - the long kick from the goalkeeper which bounces near my defender, who lets it run through to my keeper, but the opponent striker doesn't stop running and gets to the ball and scores. Meanwhile, my defender is happily standing still watching it all! Is there an instruction that says "whatever happens, stay 2cm away from this player. Wherever he goes, you go. Don't play offside. Don't assume De Gea will get it. Literally follow him everywhere."

I hate static players. I hate it not making sense. I hate me shouting "pass to him, it's an obvious pass", or "please run towards the ball" to a defender who has miles of free space but stands still until a striker has nipped in. I hate players running with the ball before stopping and rotating on the spot looking confused. I hate players like Rooney and Hernandez making a pass and then instead of running on for a through ball return, they stop and stand still, completely ruining the attack. I don't think those players have ever done that in their lives.

Now, before anyone says it, yes, I know the 3D screen is a representation of the commentary and sometimes it looks weird. But I really like watching it, and when stuff makes no sense or is unnecessarily frustrating, it completely ruins it for me. I could use commentary only, but then I may as well play FM2007 with a data update.

I've only played the demo, as I said - are any of these issues fixed in the proper release and/or patch?

Anyone got any thoughts? Am I expecting too much realism?

I think in the context of players playing like their real life counterparts, then you are perhaps asking for a little too much, I don't think we will ever see every player playing like they do in real life, that isn't to say that, that is what the aim should be, and perhaps the more well known players should be recognisable in their style of play. Your points about the static nature of some players in attacking or defensive phases of the game I 100% agree with, it drives me mad. As does the the fact that no body seems to be able to stop the ball when it is runing out of play. So many times with my teams a player is chasing a ball that would go out for a throw/corner in our favour and runs the ball out of play like they are on ice skates and don't know how to stop. It does as you say add a undesirable level of frustraion and detracts from the realism FM strives for.

First off, its the very first game of pre-season, against your young guys, in a game with no meaning except fitness, things are never going to look great in that situation, secondly, i think your expecting too much from the ME, they will never really look like their real life counterparts.

note that the current game is different than demo version , we now have 12.1 which is completely much better than demo version

I take everyone's point about not every player can look like their real life counterpart. But the players don't look like any sort of footballer. It's the reaction times that really annoys me.

I have a few videos, which are just taken from 1 game so show my points reasonably well but I'm sure other people have better examples. Keep in mind - I'm not after 100% realism, and I accept it can't look like a Sky Sports broadcast. It has limitations and that's fine. But the 3D match screen is what I have to watch in order to make tactical changes so it'd be good if it was fairly accurate.

Video 1: odd decision making from strikers and static defending

This shows a long ball from De Gea into Rooney, who passes first time on the volley to Cleverley (which is actually pretty Rooney-esque). Cleverley then holds it for a second, waits for the Hernandez run and sends a nice through ball. So far so good. So far, it's fluid and quick like United should be. I'd now expect Hernandez to control it, and drive into the area. He has the pace and trickery to beat every defender in the game, and he's more or less been played through. Instead, he stops, and makes a sideways pass. Defenders only get back because he stops and looks sideways. He should know he has the pace and the accuracy to run on and make a shot.

Also in this clip is an example of static defending - which is the thing that drives me the most crazy. At the 19-second mark, the ball is eventually cleared, and Owen chases. All my defenders stay where they are. No one moves until Owen has a 10 yard head start, and even then, my defender (who I think is the pacey Smalling) ambles over like an old man and makes the world's worst attempt at a challenge. Now, Owen is not Ronaldo. His pace isn't better than Smalling's. Why don't my defenders chase people?

[video=youtube_share;x_CxTyrbSe0]

Video 2: indecisive strikers again

This video is a little weak in demonstrating my point but it shows enough. Initally, Rooney actually plays like Rooney - getting the ball, quickly turning, driving at the heart of the defence and playing a fast accurate ball into Hernandez, who's first time control is great. So far so good. Now, he kind of drives into the box, unlike the first video, but goes wide, and then does the second thing that drives me crazy. He stops. And swivels. And generally looks confused. I can almost hear him thinking "what am I doing here?". Now, admittedly, it's not a great goalscoring chance, and he is approaching from an angle, but he could have had a snap shot, could have taken people on, could have passed it to the two United players at the edge of the area or the one supporting him from behind. Instead, he does nothing, but stand still and look stupid.

[video=youtube_share;UZtWsQvCc_g]

Video 3: Worst passing in the world

This video is one example of 8 in one match. Rooney gets it, and makes the world's easiest pass to Young. Somehow, Young decides he's tired and isn't moving an inch, and the ball rolls out of play. Now, for a start, Rooney isn't bad enough to mess up a 10-yard pass when under no pressure, and Young isn't slow enough to not keep it in. A sliding tackle by Young would have saved it....hell, even a step to his right would have stopped it. If this happens one time, I'll put it down to Rooney catching Young off guard and off balance. But identical looking instances happened another 7 times in one 90min game.

[video=youtube_share;MFRFx-MUiic]

Video 4: Insane defending

This video is the sort of video that I watch, and then rack my brains to figure out what tactical changes to make, or instructions to shout to stop it happening. It's a throw in (and there's a few seconds of the "throw in dance" which players love doing), and before it's taken, there are 3 opponent players pretty well marked by 3 of my guys. No problems. As soon as it's taken, one of my guys immediately runs away from his guy to offer tackling support, despite there being no need for it. A few passes later, and 1 second later, somehow, it's 3 vs 1 in their favour. I've no idea where my guys go!

Anyway, the ball gets played to Petrucci down the wing and Carrick closes him down. Everything's fine again, Carrick's got it covered and seems to me marking well. Petrucci stops and plays it back to the defender Blackett. I congratulate Carrick on an attack well stopped. However, then he decides to be an idiot, and literally runs away into the penalty area. For no apparent reason. Leaving Petrucci completely unmarked.

Finally, the ball is worked into the box, and gets to Pogba, who runs across the line of my defence and absolutely no one closes him down or slides in on him, and attempts to block the shot. They all pretty much dance on the spot until Pogba finds some space (which is just a case of running away from them because they don't move) and have a shot.

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Video 5: Static players

This video shows how static everyone else. It's a throw in which Giggs takes and the ball gets headed out. One of my opponents, Keane, picks the ball up on the edge of the area and stands still with it. He then creeps forward at a snails pace. The penalty area is crowded with my players but no one fancies tracking back and tackling. Keane continues to inch forward, completely unchallenged and gives the ball to Gibson who matches the slow pace. I still don't think any of my players have moved yet. It's lucky the crowd is 0 (it's a practice match) because they'd have gone into a boredom coma by now. Anyway, eventually, the ball gets worked out to the wing where Fabio makes a foul.

I've jumped the video on a few seconds, and restarted it when Fabio walks away from the ref (just to watch his epic horse-like gallop back haha!). Anyway, free kick comes in, and gets headed out. Giggs is the only player that moves. The two defenders marking him just watch him run away. They're clearly tired and don't fancy running. Ah wait, I checked and both defenders had just come on within the last 10 minutes. Maybe the lightening pace of the 38 year old frightened them.

Anyway, Giggs bursting clear - he's obviously going to run on and shoot, or commit the keeper before passing sideways to the supporting Welbeck. Easy......wait, he decides it's best to head off towards the wing. Oh yeah, he's my winger and I've set him to "Winger" and the team to "Very Wide". I didn't mean now, Giggs! You're the professional player - use your common sense and override my instructions sometimes! Anyway, just to shut me up, he does eventually stop going wide, swivel a few times, and then set Welbeck up who scores. Yeah, the outcome was good, but it's just an example of strikers, or players who are through on goal, doing silly things and taking odd detours. I actually wouldn't have minded Giggs continuing to run straight and shoot and miss! It'd have been slightly more realistic and wouldn't have had me shouting obscenities at him for going in the wrong direction!

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These are all little examples. I'm not expecting perfection. I just make decisions based on what I see, and if I see defenders not defending properly, or strikers looking confused, I might try and tweak something or even replace them. These little things affect my decisions, when in "reality", they might be nothing more than the 3D screen not showing things properly.

How can I tell the difference between my players underperforming and the 3D screen not showing things correctly?

The game will never make players play like they do in real life, the code just isn't sophisticated enough for that, and i doubt it ever will be.

It would be doable, i just don't think SI want to spend the time and effort making things like this when the majority of people aren't too fussed.

it makes them do things they wouldn't do though, the ammount of slack defending is crazy on here.

if it was realistic, torres would not be 3rd top scorer in the league.

The game will never make players play like they do in real life, the code just isn't sophisticated enough for that, and i doubt it ever will be.

It would be doable, i just don't think SI want to spend the time and effort making things like this when the majority of people aren't too fussed.

I don't mind that. But I do want them to play like footballers, and not stand still half the time.

This is your first issue:

So far, it's fluid and quick like United should be.

If we skip over the initial problem of translating real life players into a game you seem to be under the impression that putting 11 eleven players on the field is enough to get them to play like they do in real life. Within FM the players can only follow the instructions you give them and I don't believe you have given the same instructions that SAF gives on a Saturday afternoon.

Further to that we have the issue of ME and 3d graphics, despite what the ME calculates we still have a very limited number of animations that the 3d can show compared to what we see on a football field in real life and you need to be able to read between the lines of the 3d to understand what it is showing you.

Video 1

Hernandez pass - He receives the ball moving away from goal and towards the opposition DR, his pass to the forward moving ML seems normal enough. On another occasion with a different first touch he could have turned and driven into the box but its all very dependent on the team and player instructions you have given. This time the ME decided he passed to the ML.

Owen - He chases a wide clearance while your DCL holds position in the middle and your DCR stays between Owen and the goal getting beaten when Owen turns infield. I don't see anything wrong with this, Owen will have better anticipation and be on more attacking orders.

Video 2

No-one available for a cross initially so he holds up the ball and draws the tackle possibly looking for a foul or a corner. Given slightly longer he probably would have laid it off as well to the DL but the ML wasn't in a position to pass to and the DL was slow to get forward.

Video 3

Its a bad pass by Rooney that suffers from a lack of animations. You talk about Young trying to keep it in or even sliding but there simply isn't an animation available to show that and you have to use your imagination to a certain degree. At the end of the day the ME has decided the ball went out of play and its just a case of how that is represented and shown to the user.

Video 4

Part 1 - The guy moves to offer tackling support because of your instructions. I believe he is the MR so closes down the ball carrier then chases through to the throw in taker as you would expect.

Part 2 - Carrick is your MC and is out of position so has chosen that moment (When the opposition pass back) to recover his position as MC whilst the DR comes out from the centre to close down the Petrucci. The movement of Carrick and your MR leaves Pogba with a little space and he gets a shot. Far from insane defending as you claim.

Video 5

What formation are you playing? 442?

Part 1 - Keane gets the ball, isn't under any pressure so is taking his time waiting for his teammates to get forward, nothing wrong with this from his POV but where are your midfielders? I think its your MCR is at DR, he waits for your DR to recover his position before pushing back into midfield @ 27secs, nothing really wrong here with the ball on the other side of the field. The biggest problem is your MCL, it takes him forever to close down Gibson finally making an attempt @ 31 secs. He could have rubbish defending attributes but I suspect you are maybe playing a diamond with this player actually at AMC on more attacking orders in which case you are outnumbered and empty in the middle until your DMC gets back into position.

Part 2 - Similar to Owen, Giggs anticipates the long clearance while the two "defenders" are slower and have to turn and chase. Giggs then drifts onto his left foot and is pushed wide by the defenders, decides against the shot before squaring for the goal. Animations make it look a little clunky but it shows the basics well enough.

wait until you see the crazy own goals from players who it never touches, or the goalkeeper turns into a statue, or when the goalkeeper stands there and watches the ball trickle in

One of my biggest griefs with the ME is when a player runs after a ball and all of a sudden realises he is on the edge of his allowed area and stops dead and jogs back even if he is the closest player to the ball by far.

Just played a game I lost 2-1 their second goal being scored almost at full time. Their player tooka long shot that hit the cross bar and the ball landed in the middle of the penalty area the only 3 players that was currently in the box was my two DCs and my keeper. The ball lands at the feet of one of my DC's, he freezes for half a second, no worries still all alone, and then hits a ball that I'm not really sure what is supposed to be. The ball is rolling at snailpace towards the line. My keeper stands a meter maybe less away from it and watches, two steps forward and he could had kicked it away easily. Instead the ball that was hit from less distance the the penalty spot doesn't have enough power to go over the line and just lies there waiting for their striker to run up and hit it in the net. I really really hope they will put some work into the ME for the next version because as it is it is the worst part of this game.