Dynamic player attributes based on form.

I think that the game would be more realistic if SI were to do away with PA and instead have every player were to have infinite PA, CA should be much more dynamic and reflect the players current form. For instance in the current system if in my game save a player such as Lionel Messi were to start playing badly then I think his attributes should alter accordingly, if his passes become more erratic then his passing attribute should change from a 19 to 16 for example. To give another example if I were to motivate a championship player to work his socks off and get good then his stats should reflect his form for instance if you had started a game save on a previous football manager while Joleon Lescott was with Wolves in the championship there would have been no chance for him to become the top defender he is today. However with my proposed system of dynamic player attributes if Lescott were to start playing well in the Wolves game save then his attributes would improve and his form can be maintained he may develop much further then he would have in the current system. Every new iteration in football manager has differences in player attributes based on form why do we still have an outdated system where player attributes are so rigid in each game if I can get Lescott to play amazingly why don't his attributes change to reflect how hes playing? and if Lionel Messi plays badly for two seasons in a row why are his attributes still so godly?

I somehow imagine it would make the game boring for me.

With infinite PA, you are assuming that every players has the same potential to achieve what Messi (or other world class players) to do.

With infinite PA, you are assuming that every players has the same potential to achieve what Messi (or other world class players) to do.

Yes if you as a manager can get a player to play as well and as consistently as Messi it should not be easy to do(perhaps training should also have more of an influence as at the moment I feel it does nothing a player can get as good as he wants if he puts the effort in?), I can see the difficulty that you're suggesting I'm flexible though PA can still exist, and players room for improvement can be limited by certain factors such as physical ability etc... what's more important to me is an increased dynamicism in current player attributes if I can manage to get a player to consistently play amazingly with lousy attributes why don't his attributes change to reflect how he's currently playing?

Don't see how this could ever work tbh.

It would kill of scouting, i mean what's the point in having scouts or scout reports when every player is only as good as he is playing at that moment in time. And how the hell would regens work, every kid having the same infinite PA would be insane, the only way a youngster could improve would be to play well. But for a yopungster to play well from the off in FM they have to have really good physicals or they will (99% of the time) get poor ratings in matches. So the only players that would ever become world class would be those who started with high pace/acceleration/jumping when they were 15/16.

Then you have situations where Heskey scores in 5games running (i know it's hard to imagine this, but try really hard) and his attributes keep getting boosted up and up until suddenly you're looking at a guy named Heskey with the attributes of C.Ronaldo. Then once he gets those attributes chances are he will only ever get better form wise so he will never drop that much in terms of attributes. There are probably other reasons to hate this idea but these are my main ones

Just a really, really bad idea to be honest.

Don't see how this could ever work tbh.

It would kill of scouting, i mean what's the point in having scouts or scout reports when every player is only as good as he is playing at that moment in time. And how the hell would regens work, every kid having the same infinite PA would be insane, the only way a youngster could improve would be to play well. But for a yopungster to play well from the off in FM they have to have really good physicals or they will (99% of the time) get poor ratings in matches. So the only players that would ever become world class would be those who started with high pace/acceleration/jumping when they were 15/16.

Then you have situations where Heskey scores in 5games running (i know it's hard to imagine this, but try really hard) and his attributes keep getting boosted up and up until suddenly you're looking at a guy named Heskey with the attributes of C.Ronaldo. Then once he gets those attributes chances are he will only ever get better form wise so he will never drop that much in terms of attributes. There are probably other reasons to hate this idea but these are my main ones

Just a really, really bad idea to be honest.

I think the concept of potential ability in real life is fallacious scouts can't tell how a good player might be all they can tell is how good he is now, look for instance at the cases of Neymar and Drogba, Drogba was pants when he was younger he played in the french second division for a while however he got amazing at Marseille and was a beast at Chelsea clearly he had amazing potential ability and lousy current ability in FM terminology in his younger days. If scouts were as good at predicting PA why didn't a big club make a move for him while he was young and loan him out for ages until he got good? All scouts can see is how good a player is now look at Neymar the kid is amazing and so it's assumed that the player will have ridiculous PA. Isn't it the more physically able youngsters who get given the shots first? Maybe you're right maybe infinite PA is a bad idea but as said in the previous post a more dynamic CA system would be better. And scouts should not be able to report on PA.

As for the 2nd criticism if a manager can maintain Heskey's form as you suggested I see no problem with this. It should be as it is now difficult to maintain a player's good form. Making exponential improvement rare.

Your mixing up ability and form, two very different things, the CA/PA system is not perfect, but what your suggesting is a step in the wrong direction.

Your mixing up ability and form, two very different things, the CA/PA system is not perfect, but what your suggesting is a step in the wrong direction.

How so? I would argue that a player's ability is evaluated on his current form?

I think the idea of dynamic player attributes is an interesting concept. Unfortunately, I also believe it would introduce more problems than it would solve.

First things first, notwithstanding some problems in areas unrelated to this proposal, I think the current CA/PA system works very well. The idea that players start with a current, relatively low ability and, with optimal training, can progress to a maximum potential seems quite realistic. In addition, the current system also seems to model very well the ups and downs a player encounters in a season and in his career.

Second, the proposed system brings at least one major flaw of its own. In the current system, each player maintains a slowly-changing CA -- that is, it remains nearly constant over a period of weeks or months. This CA is then modified by various other factors including morale and the resulting value drives his performance. Thus, a given player can play over his head for a period of time and then return to his normal form. In the proposed system, no player would ever play over (or under) his current ability because it would quickly adjust to his new level of play. Thus, with a relatively small number of "lucky die rolls", a Grade Z player who would otherwise be going nowhere could theoretically progress into the stratosphere. Since I believe that each individual has an innate maximum ability (which the current system models very well with the PA), I'd argue that no amount of intensive training, state-of-the-art facilities and temporarily-heightened play will ever transform most Sammy Sundayleague's into world-class players. Thus, in my view, the proposed system is less realistic, not more so.

Finally, instituting the proposed system would require a major reprogramming effort from SI. Given that the current system models the football universe reasonably well AND that there are a number of other areas in which a major effort would bring significantly greater benefits to the user, I simply can't see (nor advocate for) SI committing sizable resources to such a project.

In case it interests you - Football Manager Handheld (iOS only) actually contains a small implementation of this in the 2012 version*, its something I've been experimenting with a bit recently, trying to emulate how the 'world' sees players through their recent performances ...

imho a striker is only remembered as good as his recent performances, give a player a bad streak for half a season and the media start talking about them being past it or having lost their touch - ask Torres

This implementation allows a slight variance of about +/- 2 on a players attribute depending on how he's viewed in-game at any particular point, I like the concept because it makes it harder to 'spot' players who are bargains and seperate truly good players from those who are 'flash in the pans' running on a temporary vein of hot form.

I don't think I quite understand your approach. Torres being a worse striker than what he was has nothing to do with how people see him but with how he plays, based on consistency, conversion rate, manager misuse, injury, morale issues, etc.

World reactions should be an info tool about his true value, press reactions being less dependant as opposed to a good scouter/manager reaction, etc. It should be left to the player to discover a player's true potential based on his tactics and management choices, etc.

I've often thought about if it could have some kind of "perceived attributes" as well as the underlying "true attributes". The true ones, as they are now would show the actual ability of the player (e.g. for those that have been in your team for a long time) when looking at opposition players, form would influence either upwards or downwards the appearance of these.

I'd enjoy some deviation from the well known CA/PA rules...the current system is just too easy to find world class players with an average scouting network. Moreover, even if a player has a bad break of games, you still go on playing him because if his core attributes are gooda, you know eventually he will be playing great in just a few games. That does not happen in real life that often (just ask Torres, Shevchenko, Caroll, etc). Many times players simply go down and never come back or at least not in their current club. When they change atmosphere and clubs, only then they return to form (like Robinho for example at City and post-City and Ibrahimovic at Barca and post-Barca). There are many examples of this but it doesn't happen in FM. I guess it might be an update worth considering for next year's version as it will inevitably make the game less predictable, a bit harder and should be more fun as a whole.

I think the +/- 2 change depending on form is an interesting idea, much more viable and better than a "free for all" rollercoaster...

The latter, as said already, could just render the whole CA/PA values useless because given the right circumstances any Average Joe could be turned into a better player just by being part of a successful setup. So goodbye to scouting and talent nurturing... just sign a bunch of random guys for a Top Club and see their attributes skyrocket by osmosis...

A moderate change based on form-performance would work well, however I wonder how much that's already happening "under the hood" due to the effects of Consistency, Form, Morale and Tactics.

I mean, if a player is inconsistent, is going through a spell of poor form, isn't playing much and when he does it's not his natural role so his morale is low, that's ALL going to affect his performances regardless of his actual skills.

IIRC Consistence does "cut" some player's technical attributes, while maybe morale and form cut the mental/physical ones?

As the saying goes "form is temporary, class is permanent". We could argue Torres hasn't stopped being a great striker, it's just his body and his mind aren't supporting him 100%, but should everything go back to normal he'd be back to his old standards.

I like the idea of form playing a bigger part in the game. You see IRL lower league players who have performed well over a period of time being looked at by big clubs, or high championship clubs yet on my old save i had a forward who hit something along the lines of 74 goals in 82 games over two years yet there was not one single approach or enquiry about him. Never did his status even flick to 'WNT'. I had not set his value to anything other than default, he was on around £500 p/w on a basic contract. I find it hard to think that over the two years not one single manager thought of even asking about him?

I understand every save is different but many people talk the same that when managing a lower league side the star players are rarely bid for. The only time i have seen it is when my players are just 6 months left before contract expires. Even when i was at Forest Green, hardly a high rep club.

First things first, notwithstanding some problems in areas unrelated to this proposal, I think the current CA/PA system works very well. The idea that players start with a current, relatively low ability and, with optimal training, can progress to a maximum potential seems quite realistic. In addition, the current system also seems to model very well the ups and downs a player encounters in a season and in his career.

Second, the proposed system brings at least one major flaw of its own. In the current system, each player maintains a slowly-changing CA -- that is, it remains nearly constant over a period of weeks or months. This CA is then modified by various other factors including morale and the resulting value drives his performance. Thus, a given player can play over his head for a period of time and then return to his normal form. In the proposed system, no player would ever play over (or under) his current ability because it would quickly adjust to his new level of play. Thus, with a relatively small number of "lucky die rolls", a Grade Z player who would otherwise be going nowhere could theoretically progress into the stratosphere. Since I believe that each individual has an innate maximum ability (which the current system models very well with the PA), I'd argue that no amount of intensive training, state-of-the-art facilities and temporarily-heightened play will ever transform most Sammy Sundayleague's into world-class players. Thus, in my view, the proposed system is less realistic, not more so.

To your first point I've cited numerous examples as to how the current system doesn't model real life well the previous poster also provides a good example of lower league players playing amazingly but attracting no interest from bigger clubs because his attributes don't justify it. This does not occur in real life lower league players playing well are snapped up look at phil jagielka when he was at sheffield united or joleon lescott again at wolves. I think that training should be a part of the dynamic CA system.

To your second point it might not quickly adjust current attributes could be decided based on his performances in the last 30 games. I think that someone from the lower leagues becoming great should be possible I remember there were players at Hull who had been with the side since they were in League 2 who were playing in the premiership a couple of seasons ago it should be possible but hard to do.

I don't think I quite understand your approach. Torres being a worse striker than what he was has nothing to do with how people see him but with how he plays, based on consistency, conversion rate, manager misuse, injury, morale issues, etc.

These factors you mention have possibly contributed to degeneration of his current attributes. If torres continues along the same vein he will be reflected as so in the next FM game in his current attributes, but you want his current attributes in this game to stay constant? Why do you have no problems with this inconsistency? Either a dynamic CA system should be employed or once a player has hit his top form his stats should be the same in the every following game with the exception of their failing physical attributes due to age. Because as you say these players attributes haven't changed.

I think the +/- 2 change depending on form is an interesting idea, much more viable and better than a "free for all" rollercoaster...

The latter, as said already, could just render the whole CA/PA values useless because given the right circumstances any Average Joe could be turned into a better player just by being part of a successful setup. So goodbye to scouting and talent nurturing... just sign a bunch of random guys for a Top Club and see their attributes skyrocket by osmosis...

As the saying goes "form is temporary, class is permanent". We could argue Torres hasn't stopped being a great striker, it's just his body and his mind aren't supporting him 100%, but should everything go back to normal he'd be back to his old standards.

First point, This should be possible but difficult to implement players should play in a match as a combination of their attributes and morale etc... if he's lousy he should play lousy unless you the manager can motivate him into putting in big performances consistently his attributes should not change.

Second point my system would reflect that if you can get Torres to play well consistently again his stats will increase to reflect how he's playing.

I like the idea of form playing a bigger part in the game. You see IRL lower league players who have performed well over a period of time being looked at by big clubs, or high championship clubs yet on my old save i had a forward who hit something along the lines of 74 goals in 82 games over two years yet there was not one single approach or enquiry about him. Never did his status even flick to 'WNT'. I had not set his value to anything other than default, he was on around £500 p/w on a basic contract. I find it hard to think that over the two years not one single manager thought of even asking about him?

I understand every save is different but many people talk the same that when managing a lower league side the star players are rarely bid for. The only time i have seen it is when my players are just 6 months left before contract expires. Even when i was at Forest Green, hardly a high rep club.

This

In case it interests you - Football Manager Handheld (iOS only) actually contains a small implementation of this in the 2012 version*, its something I've been experimenting with a bit recently, trying to emulate how the 'world' sees players through their recent performances ...

imho a striker is only remembered as good as his recent performances, give a player a bad streak for half a season and the media start talking about them being past it or having lost their touch - ask Torres

This implementation allows a slight variance of about +/- 2 on a players attribute depending on how he's viewed in-game at any particular point, I like the concept because it makes it harder to 'spot' players who are bargains and seperate truly good players from those who are 'flash in the pans' running on a temporary vein of hot form.

Very interesting. Wish I had an i-phone

In case it interests you - Football Manager Handheld (iOS only) actually contains a small implementation of this in the 2012 version*, its something I've been experimenting with a bit recently, trying to emulate how the 'world' sees players through their recent performances ...

imho a striker is only remembered as good as his recent performances, give a player a bad streak for half a season and the media start talking about them being past it or having lost their touch - ask Torres

This implementation allows a slight variance of about +/- 2 on a players attribute depending on how he's viewed in-game at any particular point, I like the concept because it makes it harder to 'spot' players who are bargains and seperate truly good players from those who are 'flash in the pans' running on a temporary vein of hot form.

Any chance of something like this or what I'm proposing to be implemented it could be optional so as to appease anyone who didn't approve.

really nice to hear youre exploring this as yes, current form should "mask" the attributes. I hope youll be around to check below post from member Dekker2 which is talking about this in a bit different context.

What would be realistic, I think, would be if the "graphical attributes" option, or whatever it's called (where instead of numbers for the attributes you get different length/colour bars), was changed so that it showed only, let's say 6 different levels: Lvl 1: 0-2, Lvl 2: 2-6, Lvl 3: 6-10, Lvl 4: 10-14, Lvl 5: 14-18, Lvl 6: 18-20, with the overlapping numbers (2,6,10,14,18) showing randomly (or perhaps depending on form?) as one or other of the two levels they inhabit.

That way you could quickly discern the obvious things that one training session or MoTD, or the press could show you IRL: you could see that Messi is a World Class (18-20) dribbler of the ball, or that your CB can't finish at all (0-2).

You'd also be able to see basic differences- you could distinguish an attacking FB's crossing (unless its Clichy's) from a defensive FB's crossing. And you'd be able to get a feel for a player's style with one glance- you could tell that Neymar is a skilful dribbler, with a lot of flair and not that much strength - just like IRL you'd know this from reading the press, watching highlights etc., even if you don't watch the Brazilian league.

However, you would have all the controversy and uncertainty that real life generates also. You might think that the hottest striker of the moment, banging in goals for fun, is certain to have 17 or 18 finishing and composure and be the lynchpin of your side, when really he has 14 for both and is far from the superstar you'd hoped. So you'd actually get proper flops in this game- I don't think I've ever had cause to regret a big money purchase in FM/CM, in the 10 years I've been playing- would be nice to get one wrong.

You'd always be unsure as to whether a player doing well in a mid-table club could make the leap to a team in European competition (ie, whether those Lvl 3 stats were 12s or 14s, whether his Level 5 stats were solid 16s or yet more 14s in disguise)

Deciding between two similar players would suddenly be tricky. You'd suddenly have to look to his passing percentage to decide who was a better passer of the ball- you would no longer be able to make perfect decisions about, let's say, "who has the better passing, Xabi Alonso or Fabregas?", just as IRL you'd see different answers to that question.

You'd have to rely on what you see in games and scout reports, and trust a player's form as a measure of his talent - risking an Afonso Alves moment - or second guess yourself about that cheap player offered your way, in case he was too good to be true (PSG didn't buy Hernandez, when offered him on the cheap, because they were suspicious of the price tag- Man Utd came in not too long after, after some thorough scouting, and now PSG feel silly.)

This could also work but I think that my system would allow for the increase in ability seen in players from lower leagues such as Drogba or Lescott.

What does Moral effect in the ME?

Id argue that it should affect only the mental attributes and we should see these go up and down in line with moral. Presently the same player on superb moral and poor moral looks just the same although he performs very differently.

What does Moral effect in the ME?

Id argue that it should affect only the mental attributes and we should see these go up and down in line with moral. Presently the same player on superb moral and poor moral looks just the same although he performs very differently.

What's the ME?

Match engine

Messi having two bad passing games should not lose attribute points.

To sum up in one sentence:

Form is temporary; Class is permanent.

If attributes change with form, it would make scouting players over 3 games more influential. If you send you scout out and the player is going through a bad spell, your scout would not rate him the same has if the player was going through a god spell.

By using what Marc Vaughan is doing in the handheld version scouting then should be changed in the just asking for a report card should just give ranged attribute i.e. Finishing 14-18 his natural ability would be 16 but because of the form impact if bad it could drop to 14 if good could rise to 18. So to find out where the player is at now you would have to scout him for say 3 games and the report card would come back with his actual attributes. If they come back with the low end rating you know the player is on a bad run if they come back the high end you know he is going through a good spell.

If this form thing is implemented is should work on the players match ratings if 6.80 is the norm then if a player is over a period say 5 games is below that his attributes could drop if above they will rise.

Messi having two bad passing games should not lose attribute points.

To sum up in one sentence:

Form is temporary; Class is permanent.

It shouldn't be measure over the space of two games read the previous posts and you will see that I have said this.

"Form is temporary; Class is permanent." Yes it's been said many a time but this just a very general platitude, players abilities change over time if you go by this saying hen every players attributes should be reflective of when this player was playing at almost their best so you would have the attributes of the 2005 Gerrard in the present game and have him with worse form?

Just to clarify on the handheld game players don't 'lose' or 'gain' in ability through this - its just their visible stats which change not their internal data (ie. they'll perform the same and have the same skill level, its just how they 'look' to people which changes) .... irl if a striker has a dry run without scoring irl then the media start questioning them and their ability, its 'this' which the game is trying to emulate through the variable nature of attributes and make it a little more challenging (and realistic) to spot 'quality' players and determine if someone should be signed, released or whatever.

PS - Out of interest with Torres irl what is your opinion of him - is he still 'permanent class' or has his ability dropped? .... I personally still think he has high ability but is having a confidence crisis which he will probably never quite recover from (ie. he'll probably recover and be a very good striker but never quite have the arrogance and confidence he once had).

Surely if they are having a bad run then their morale will be very poor, which should affect their performance?

As for Torres, he still has the ability but his morale is extremely low.

Perhaps a slight attribute adjustment based on form would make sense, but the current match rating system is flawed and could ruin the game. For instance, a defender who often goes up and scores from corners ends up with a very high rating because he scores a few goals. Will the game just increase his heading attribute or will all his attributes go up because he often gets a high rating or MOTM?

Also the assists give quite a boost to the match rating, often unfairly. I had an instance yesterday where my DR lumped a ball forward from his own half, ST collects it and beats 2 defenders, gets to the byline, draws the keeper out and squares it to my AML for a simple tap-in to an open goal. AML gets the goal and boost to his match rating, but strangely my DR is given the assist, which would increase his match rating and boost his attributes under this system.

This can only be implemented with thorough testing and possibly overhauling and rebuilding the entire engine of FM and its structure. There are some things in real-world which is almost impossible to implement in-game as i doubt with the sufficient AI and level of technology to pull this off atleast in the next 5 years. Maybe in 10 years time we can expect something like that.

I do agree the current CA & PA system is outdated and we need something new ... I personally don't like a really talented player being limited to a PA when he could be or not be better...

I was under the impression this was already hidden in the current system, to a small degree. Morale, which is dependant, in part, on form, already adjusts in-match abilities with minor modifiers, does it not?

Just to clarify on the handheld game players don't 'lose' or 'gain' in ability through this - its just their visible stats which change not their internal data (ie. they'll perform the same and have the same skill level, its just how they 'look' to people which changes) .... irl if a striker has a dry run without scoring irl then the media start questioning them and their ability, its 'this' which the game is trying to emulate through the variable nature of attributes and make it a little more challenging (and realistic) to spot 'quality' players and determine if someone should be signed, released or whatever.

PS - Out of interest with Torres irl what is your opinion of him - is he still 'permanent class' or has his ability dropped? .... I personally still think he has high ability but is having a confidence crisis which he will probably never quite recover from (ie. he'll probably recover and be a very good striker but never quite have the arrogance and confidence he once had).

By they'll perform the same I assume you mean if they recover their form? I like your proposed system I think it would be more realistic then the current system and would have some advantages over the one I propose. I still think it fails to account for players who improve significantly quite a way in to their career such as Drogba. If he were to have the PA required to achieve his level of ability he would have never spent so long in the french second division. If a player of potential ability equivalent to that of Drogba were scouted in FM they would be snapped up at a young age.

I agree with you on Torres I think he is having a confidence crisis but he doesn't play how he use to either he's not as far forward as he use to be whether that's up to the manager or his own doing I don't know. But I'm sure that if you were to put your mind to it you could think of players who have had their abilities decrease over time Patrick Kluivert perhaps? If you are of the opinion that form is temporary, class is permanent is it not logically inconsistent to negatively alter player attributes for each game if Torres were to continue to play like this would you not alter his attributes in next years game to reflect how he plays?

I really like that idea Marc. Do you know if it's in the pipeline for FM on the PC?

By they'll perform the same I assume you mean if they recover their form? I like your proposed system I think it would be more realistic then the current system and would have some advantages over the one I propose. I still think it fails to account for players who improve significantly quite a way in to their career such as Drogba. If he were to have the PA required to achieve his level of ability he would have never spent so long in the french second division. If a player of potential ability equivalent to that of Drogba were scouted in FM they would be snapped up at a young age.

I think this is more an issue with scouts and PA, or even with just how you think scouts work. Personally, I think scouts should judge a player's PA based on CA, age and possibly reputation, with PA playing a small role if any. I don't know how scouts do it in the game right now.

In the case of Drogba you're exaggerating a bit, he never played for a professional academy, he had two years where he barely trained due to injury, then two years playing in Ligue 2, then moved to Ligue 1 aged 23, where he stayed for two and a half years before Chelsea signed him. Miroslav Klose is another touted as a "late bloomer", but he was playing top flight football at the ripe age of 22. The third one of that mould, Luca Toni, didn't play in Serie A until his mid-late 20s, so is probably the best example.

Dynamic PA is mentioned a few times on this forum... You can read my thoughts just by searching for "dynamic talent" on posts made by me and searching for the longest threads...

I don't think attributes should vary depending on form, however. Attributes are kind of like the player's "CV". As long as we are aware that a player's form is absolutely shocking when it should be shocking, we should be aware that that player is going to play substantially worse for a while until he gets out of his slump.

Also, not all attributes should fall if a player is out of form... If Walcott is out of form, he still runs very quickly and his fitness levels will still be the same. He just might have less conviction in his technical skills and/or mentality, some more than others. For example, flair is likely to be lowered as the player will try to play it safe, but his positioning isn't likely to fall as much, as positioning is a "safe" attribute and a player without confidence will focus on the defensive side of things more often.

Removing PA, however, is actually quite accurate, in my view. PA is defined to be the absolute maximum reachable CA given what we know today, but nobody knows for certain what it should be - therefore it should not be absolute. It is like defining 2+2=5 in the game. It's an assumption, and an incorrect one, and relaxing that assumption makes things more correct. If perhaps more difficult...

Dynamic PA is mentioned a few times on this forum... You can read my thoughts just by searching for "dynamic talent" on posts made by me and searching for the longest threads...

I don't think attributes should vary depending on form, however. Attributes are kind of like the player's "CV". As long as we are aware that a player's form is absolutely shocking when it should be shocking, we should be aware that that player is going to play substantially worse for a while until he gets out of his slump.

Also, not all attributes should fall if a player is out of form... If Walcott is out of form, he still runs very quickly and his fitness levels will still be the same. He just might have less conviction in his technical skills and/or mentality, some more than others. For example, flair is likely to be lowered as the player will try to play it safe, but his positioning isn't likely to fall as much, as positioning is a "safe" attribute and a player without confidence will focus on the defensive side of things more often.

Removing PA, however, is actually quite accurate, in my view. PA is defined to be the absolute maximum reachable CA given what we know today, but nobody knows for certain what it should be - therefore it should not be absolute. It is like defining 2+2=5 in the game. It's an assumption, and an incorrect one, and relaxing that assumption makes things more correct. If perhaps more difficult...

I agree with what you have to say about PA. I'd just like to clarify by the sound of your post I think I've made something too ambiguous, the players attributes should not be judged to go up or down as a whole based on form, I propose a system where irrelevant of the players current form the players attributes are based on how he's played in say the last 20 games so all the statistics are recorded such as passes made, passes attempted shots on target all of these statistics compiled to form the players CA.

Football intelligence cannot be trained. It is either there or it isn't. Sure, training and lots of match experience could make a player who don't understand much about football grasp the main ideas, but at the highest levels such a player would never be able to compete.

The idea is terrible because it, like PA, presumes something non-existent to be true. It is a worse idea than PA because PA at least sort of simulates levels of football intelligence.

I like the idea of removing PA. But I think that doesn't it means that everyone can be world class as some noticed. I think the biggest impact it is the quality of trainings and "talent". Talented players will develops more quickly and will have right attributes at the start for their position than not talented. As for trainings: if there are 2 identical players, where one trains at the academy of Barcelona and another at the Academy of Dynamo, the first will grow faster. But if the second is a very talented, he can grow faster than the first and so the talent will notice the big clubs (eg Barcelona, ​​where he quickly could become a world-class player).

I don't like idea when CA depends on form. Because I think form depends on CA Form indicates what level the player has achieved on trainings. Also it affects by player's morale. The player with very low morale will play worse, but it does not mean that he is a bad player. Just he has bad days or a stupid manager uses him as a defender rather than striker(natural position) then he will be in a bad form, but it does not mean that he is a bad striker

Also interesting article "How to catch Wenger's eye": http://performance.fourfourtwo.com/pro-tips/how-to-catch-wengers-eye

There Wenger says that some players talanted and some not. Also he says about Lilian Thuram who was not the most talanted but:"you are humbled by his efforts and proud to have been involved".

Football intelligence cannot be trained. It is either there or it isn't. Sure, training and lots of match experience could make a player who don't understand much about football grasp the main ideas, but at the highest levels such a player would never be able to compete.

The idea is terrible because it, like PA, presumes something non-existent to be true. It is a worse idea than PA because PA at least sort of simulates levels of football intelligence.

Why don't clubs then not bother with any other types of training other then physical. So if Luka Modric hadn't kicked a ball until the age of 24 and then plays a game of football would he have the football intelligence he has now and no technical and possibly no physical ability I doubt it.

Why don't clubs then not bother with any other types of training other then physical. So if Luka Modric hadn't kicked a ball until the age of 24 and then plays a game of football would he have the football intelligence he has now and no technical and possibly no physical ability I doubt it.

Technical training and Team play requires incredible amounts of repetition

I find it ironic that you don't know what the term "football intelligence" means. I even said that it can be improved to a certain degree, so your post is of the "wtflol?" kind.

(p.s in FM football intelligence is represented by the Anticipation, Creativity, Decisions, Positioning and Team Work attributes)

The rest of the attributes can be trained (in RL), but only to a certain degree. There are obvious physical limitations of course, but some people just don't have the necessary coordinaton between brain and limbs to have good technique. It can be practiced of course, but football players of the highest calibre cannot start at zero and train at everything to reach their goals. As a rule, 15-year-olds would be selected for youth contracts based on their accomplishments in all the areas of mastery at that point. There is not enough time to teach them everything, so that is why we have types of football players given different roles on the pitch: there is only so much time to practice, and so the young football players will be good at some things but not others and they will specialize in that area rather than trying to learn new things from the very beginning.

Therefore, having a selection of completely blank slates from which you want to shape whatever type of player you need (but with certain pre-sets) is extremely unrealistic. This if FM, not Skyrim.

Hang on there Biggus, thats 3 or 4 posts of yours i 100% agree with, i think i must still be drunk from new year

Instead of removing PA, why not just make it hidden. So if people want to know the PA they can use Genie Scout or FMRTE and those who don't will not know. Scouts will then only report back on CA

I think it would be better if they made it impossible to see CA/PA with any tools, although with the healthy editing community FM has it prob would be a disaster for SI.

Technical training and Team play requires incredible amounts of repetition

I find it ironic that you don't know what the term "football intelligence" means. I even said that it can be improved to a certain degree, so your post is of the "wtflol?" kind.

(p.s in FM football intelligence is represented by the Anticipation, Creativity, Decisions, Positioning and Team Work attributes)

The rest of the attributes can be trained (in RL), but only to a certain degree. There are obvious physical limitations of course, but some people just don't have the necessary coordinaton between brain and limbs to have good technique. It can be practiced of course, but football players of the highest calibre cannot start at zero and train at everything to reach their goals. As a rule, 15-year-olds would be selected for youth contracts based on their accomplishments in all the areas of mastery at that point. There is not enough time to teach them everything, so that is why we have types of football players given different roles on the pitch: there is only so much time to practice, and so the young football players will be good at some things but not others and they will specialize in that area rather than trying to learn new things from the very beginning.

Therefore, having a selection of completely blank slates from which you want to shape whatever type of player you need (but with certain pre-sets) is extremely unrealistic. This if FM, not Skyrim.

I understood what you meant by footballing intelligence that's why I made a distinction between it and technique. What I meant was that what you originally stated implied that you felt that if Modric were to play his first game of football at the age of 24 he would have the same anticipation, positioning attributes etc. as he does now "football intelligence can't be trained it's either there or it's not" to quote you loosely as I can't be bothered to retrieve the exact quote.

It's not skyrim as you have no control of which of your players abilities improve your players performance is assessed by the video game and his attributes calculated.

I think it would be better if they made it impossible to see CA/PA with any tools, although with the healthy editing community FM has it prob would be a disaster for SI.

I don't think you should be able to see PA as it is now. Maybe not CA either maybe just the scout's reports and the players statistics such as percentage of passes completed, shots on target, etc...

You mean you don't like FM2012 Spreadsheet Manager

I agree with you 100%.

Throw away these stupid numbers and introduce a more realistic way of looking at players.

I think there is an upper limit to realism that if exceeded would take away from the gaming experience. As such, the unrealisticly precise PA star ratings that are in the game now speeds up the game and prevents unnecessary micromanagement and confusion.

When that is said, it is clear that for the advanced user the PA star ratings make the game easy. I think that a hard-core mode like in Fallout: New Vegas, with a set of Steam Achievements on its own, could perhaps be an idea for SI. FNV's hard-core mode weren't made to be more difficult as such, but it is there for the option of a different gaming experience.

Such a hard-core mode could for example include a thicker fog of war (for instance a full year at the club before all the non-hidden attributes are displayed in full, preventing full knowledge of players not at the club), no PA star rating and starting unemployed with minimum reputation.

Current PA/CA system must be rewrited. Percent of incorrectness of this system = percent of changes attributes of not famous players in 5 year period