Why is Football Manager so unrealistic in league games for top teams???

Been wondering about this. Why are the results of Football Manager matches at a lot of times so unrealistic. Apart from Barcelona and Real Madrid, you nearly always see top teams from other countries fail in their national league. Why is this? Isn't the match engine good enough to 'cover' this?

I mean, apart from Spain where I see Barca and Real dominate the league just like in real life, in the other leagues you see the top teams struggle a lot, whilst in real life they aren't.

Best example is The Netherlands. In a lot of my games at the end of the ride I see the likes of PSV or FC Twente end mid table, whilst in real life they have been a regular top three finishers for a lot of seasons in a row. Other examples are Italy where especially AC Milan struggles a lot.

So my query is: How come apart from Barcelona and Real Madrid, all other top teams tend to struggle in their national competition?

Its mainly due to how clubs replace their current talent - AC Milan are a prime example as they have a fairly old squad at the start and need to replace players almost immediately.

Overall though I find the big clubs do tend to do fairly well and tend to stay as the big clubs unless something significant happens.

Looking at my FM11 save in the 2023/24 season:

England - No one except Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal & Liverpool have finished in the top three.

Spain - Barcelona 9 titles, 2*3rd place & a couple of poor seasons. Real 3 titles, 7*runners up, 1*3rd & 2 poor seasons. Atletico Madrid 1 title, 4*runners up & 5*3rd place.

Italy - I managed Lazio here for 7 seasons and it was very competitive between 7/8 teams - AC Milan, Inter, Palermo, Fiorentina, Lazio, Roma, Juventus & Napoli (early on) then Udinese. Fiorentina 5 titles, Palermo 3 titles, AC Milan 2 titles, Inter 2 titles & Roma 1 title.

Germany - Top three places are dominated by Leverkusen (6 titles), Bayern (3 titles) & Wolfsburg (3 titles) with Hoffenheim taking the title in 2015.

France - Lyon have dominated winning 11 titles + twice runner up. PSG are their main challengers (6*runners up + 3rd four times) with other regular names in the top three being Marseille, Monaco, Toulouse & Bordeaux.

Holland - Like Italy has been competitive with Ajax, PSV, Utrecht, AZ, Feyenoord & Heerenveen having all won titles while Twente is the only other team that has finished in the top 3.

Honestly, if you think this you lack any understanding of the football world. The game models the world far better than other other game for one and offers a fluid change not seen in other games that is seen in real life.

As for specific examples, FC Twente aren't that big of a team... a single Eredivisie title to their name [ever] does not make them a "big team", nor would I expect them to continue to be a top team. The same can be said for most teams in the dutch league. You'd expect "big teams" to struggle now and then as well, especially in leagues that aren't dominated in the same manner as Spain or Scotland. So, what do you consider struggling by the way? If FC Twente lose a couple they could be as low as 6th... What is struggling to you?

So let's talk about Serie A for a moment. You say that its surprising to see AC Milan struggle "a lot". However you don't define what "a lot" is or for any of this talk about how many seasons you've played, or whether they are deep into a game, like say... the 2020s or if you're playing the first season over and over again. For all I know it could be September on your first saves and they made an Arsenal like start (or Liverpool from a few years ago for that matter). Back to Serie A though, do you know where Juventus finished last year? It wasn't that long ago that AC Milan missed out on the Champions League either.

Then if you want to get into England, don't get me started on England! Chelsea have 4 English titles (again, in their entire history), whilst League Leaders Man City haven't won since 1968. More interestingly they have the same number of titles as Derby and both of Derby's have been more recent. Times change, teams have bad seasons and quite frankly I'd be worried if this didn't happen.

On to some other examples, I recently posted a mock complaint thread about Brisbane Roar's terrible run. They ran away with the title last season and were running away again this season before losing for the first time in 36 games. They are now on a 5 game losing streak... Unusual things do happen in football.

I'd also now get onto the point of statistics. You are but one man (I assume) and quite frankly your one experience (which is completely undefined in your original post) is not statistically significant. Even if there were a problem (which there isn't) then your one poorly defined anecdotally based post is completely pointless in revealing the "problem". So yeah, drop the hyperbole, give us some numbers and we can discuss this further. Have a nice day.

I'm only annoyed by how dominant Lyon is in Ligue 1, winning every year despite PSG having daddy sugar to buy better players than Lyon, which they never buy. Otherwise, the leagues are mostly realistic in the first 20 years.

So is everyone seeing a supercharged Lyon? Madness!

Have to politely disagree with the OP. I like that a handful of years in you see a shake-up in La Liga with Barca and Real as they lose their older key players and management get a shake-up and you get a good challenge from the chasing pack - much like how teams like Valencia and Deportivo came up and won titles in the early 2000s breaking up the duopoly in Spain.

Italy these days is as open a competition as it has been, with Napoli trying to be one of the big boys, Juventus making up for lost time after Calciopoli. You had Sampdoria a step away from Champions League football one season, then the next - last year - they get themselves relegated. Inter went from best in the world to struggling to keep their heads above the relegation places for half of this season.

Lille won in France last year for the first time in 60 odd years, and Monaco who most would consider a big team in France, Champions League runners up to Mourinho's Porto only a few years ago, and now dead last in Ligue 2 looking like they could get relegated in consecutive seasons to the third tier.

As for the Eredivisie, what's happening with Feyenoord? Hitting money troubles, instead of always in the top 2/3/4 for years and years, bottom half of the table, out of Europe.

River Plate getting relegated last season, bet FM would have never simulated that. I think we can all agree FM does a pretty good job at recreating the changing, sometimes surprising world of football.

Italy - I managed Lazio here for 7 seasons and it was very competitive between 7/8 teams - AC Milan, Inter, Palermo, Fiorentina, Lazio, Roma, Juventus & Napoli (early on) then Udinese. Fiorentina 5 titles, Palermo 3 titles, AC Milan 2 titles, Inter 2 titles & Roma 1 title.

Best example then. I mean can you see Fiorentina win 5 titles in 7 seasons? Or Palermo ever winning a title in the next few years? Even if you look in the future? Fiorentina are a mid table team who, in recent years, achieved nothing.

Germany - Top three places are dominated by Leverkusen (6 titles), Bayern (3 titles) & Wolfsburg (3 titles) with Hoffenheim taking the title in 2015.

Another example. Leverkusen has never won a title, yet they win 6 titles in FM? Wolfsburg's title in 2009 was a total fluke, yet they win 3 titles in FM? I mean, realisticly, can you see Wolfsburg win a title in the next few years? Or Leverkusen winning as much as six?

Holland - Like Italy has been competitive with Ajax, PSV, Utrecht, AZ, Feyenoord & Heerenveen having all won titles while Twente is the only other team that has finished in the top 3.

Most shocking country in FM. Holland is a nation, like Portugal as well with Porto and Benfica, where you will nearly always see the two top teams Ajax or PSV take the title. Yet I see in your game Utrecht and Heerenveen winning a title. I'm sorry, but this is too unrealistic. Heerenveen is never going to win a title, no matter how many years you look into the future.

i have a supercharged spurs in my second season at united.

that finished on 89 points behind me

If things like this didn't happen it would be called "Football Totally Predictable Manager"

I personally prefer seeing things get shaken up a little...

Un-realistic or not, I prefer the game to do this. It's a much better idea than having the same teams dominate everything all the time.

10 years ago Lyon had never won a title, then they won seven straight.

10 years ago Valencia had won one title in over 50 years, then they won two out of three.

10 years ago Chelsea had won one top flight title ever, then three of the next nine.

Admittedly, Dutch Guy does have a small point about the Eredivisie, with only 4 first time winners since it was founded to replace the old National Championship, but NEVER is a long time...

Best example then. I mean can you see Fiorentina win 5 titles in 7 seasons? Or Palermo ever winning a title in the next few years? Even if you look in the future? Fiorentina are a mid table team who, in recent years, achieved nothing.

Another example. Leverkusen has never won a title, yet they win 6 titles in FM? Wolfsburg's title in 2009 was a total fluke, yet they win 3 titles in FM? I mean, realisticly, can you see Wolfsburg win a title in the next few years? Or Leverkusen winning as much as six?

Most shocking country in FM. Holland is a nation, like Portugal as well with Porto and Benfica, where you will nearly always see the two top teams Ajax or PSV take the title. Yet I see in your game Utrecht and Heerenveen winning a title. I'm sorry, but this is too unrealistic. Heerenveen is never going to win a title, no matter how many years you look into the future.

If you in 2000 ask to everyone if Boavista will win 2000/01 Portugal League everyone would say no, but at the end Boavista as won the first ever national championship.

Best example then. I mean can you see Fiorentina win 5 titles in 7 seasons? Or Palermo ever winning a title in the next few years? Even if you look in the future? Fiorentina are a mid table team who, in recent years, achieved nothing.

Their five titles weren't grouped together, they were spread over 13 seasons. TBH Fiorentina have been one of the richest clubs in Italy finishing top four virtually every season in my save. Their success has mainly been down to a handful of star players (One striker especially who has won loads of awards) and a formation that has been very tough to break down. Palermo are a team who seem to have peaked in recent FMs between 2012 & 2016 using the same formation as Fiorentina before falling back into the pack.

Successful spells like this happen in football: Fiorentina won one title & finished 2nd four times in a row from 1955-1960 for example while Inter didn't win a title for 15 years from 1990 to 2005

Another example. Leverkusen has never won a title, yet they win 6 titles in FM? Wolfsburg's title in 2009 was a total fluke, yet they win 3 titles in FM? I mean, realisticly, can you see Wolfsburg win a title in the next few years? Or Leverkusen winning as much as six?

See above

Most shocking country in FM. Holland is a nation, like Portugal as well with Porto and Benfica, where you will nearly always see the two top teams Ajax or PSV take the title. Yet I see in your game Utrecht and Heerenveen winning a title. I'm sorry, but this is too unrealistic. Heerenveen is never going to win a title, no matter how many years you look into the future.

Whilst Ajax & PSV have dominated the Dutch league in the past, you just have to go back three seasons to find an occasion where neither finished in the top 2 although this has been a rare. You need to accept though that changes do happen - HVV won ten titles between 1890 & 1914 where are they now?

I think one of the main points about football is that you don't know where any club will be in 5 years time. Liverpool won the champions league 6 years ago. Now they are aren't even in a European competition and the most their hoping for realistically (unless you are a deluded supporter) is battling for 4th or 5th. I think Germany and holland have proven that their leagues aren't that good anymore and anyone can win it. I'm pretty sure fc twente came out of nowhere.

Yeah why not just have SI code some things in the game where the better team always wins, upsets don't exist, and the same bloody teams wins all the time. Totally realistic!

How boring would FM be if the same teams always won no matter what...

I think one of the main points about football is that you don't know where any club will be in 5 years time. Liverpool won the champions league 6 years ago. Now they are aren't even in a European competition and the most their hoping for realistically (unless you are an optimistic supporter) is battling for 4th or 5th.

Fixed.

Liverpool are a good example though, winning league titles like crazy, then none for 20 odd years. A pretty average Man United then come good in the 90s. Methinks the thread title should be, "Why is the real world so unrealistic in league games for top teams?"

I can see the need of a bit of unpredictability, but that should STILL be a fair reflection of real-life situations and standards.

It's no use keeping of bringing up some "random" fluke wins by clubs with no previous tradition or with successful spells lost in the mists of time.

Rich clubs can buy themselves titles, much more in recent years than say, 20 or 30 years ago. Back then you could manage to challenge for a trophy with a well-balanced setup and a couple of talented "nobodies".

Nowadays there's just so much you can do against a club that can pay their players 2x their market value and 5x the maximum wage you could afford.

In leagues where the gap between Top and Next-Best is small, or where there is just one true Top Club, it's still possible to have a dark horse getting away with silverware, but it'll always require an exceptional season while the Top Club(s) failed to deliver.

Otherwise it'd take something truly special to have the 4th/5th best club to win the title...

So I'm befuddled to see people are defending the idea of Fiorentina and Palermo winning Serie A... Neither club has the resources to mount a creddible challenge for the title run nor the appeal to attract players good enough to compete for a whole season against the "Striped Trio" (AC Milan, Inter, Juve).

Napoli's 3rd place last year was nothing short of miraculous and it still did require a truckload of lucky coincidences to happen...

Let's be realistic, no club can go from "mid-table filler" to "multi-time winner" without SOMETHING dramatic happening... Olympique Lyonnais and Chelsea got rich (although in different ways).

Top Clubs can indeed have ups-and-downs and even go through long dry spells, but given the right circumstances they'll bounce back, without having ever left the elite group of title challengers.

they need to sort cups out. getting randoms like blackburn, wolves and sunderland in europe constantly due to them winning league and FA cups.

I agree there's a lack of realism. In my current save, Man City -- who IRL have not won a league title in 45 years -- have now won 3 of the last 6. This is obviously completely unrealistic. In real life, no team would ever come from nowhere to be so consistently among the leaders. Fix this, please.

they need to sort cups out. getting randoms like blackburn, wolves and sunderland in europe constantly due to them winning league and FA cups.

Yeah like in the first season how you have a mid-table Stoke and Championship Birmingham in Europe, whilst the most successful team in English footballing history looks forward to their only European match on the final day of the league season when they're away to Swansea. It happens.

I do think there's a bit of an issue with the AI managers seeming to play their reserve/youth teams even in FA cup matches against only slightly less able opposition, but I read that was being looked into. In the Carling Cup especially, the big teams winning every year isn't exactly the norm. Leicester winning a couple whilst being nothing more than a mid-table side, Birmingham last year. It's a pretty open comp given the way it's viewed by a lot of the top teams. As a counter argument, Liverpool have won the last three in my save trying to recreate their 80s exploits so I don't think there's too much wrong with the cup winners balance in that respect.

I agree there's a lack of realism. In my current save, Man City -- who IRL have not won a league title in 45 years -- have now won 3 of the last 6. This is obviously completely unrealistic. In real life, no team would ever come from nowhere to be so consistently among the leaders. Fix this, please.

Yeah, I can't imagine Man City ever winning anything. Especially with that squad. Not enough investment,, lacks real quality...

But for anyone that honestly thinks what I've bolded above - whether it be though ignorance, naivety or otherwise - what about Deportivo de la Coruna? Promoted to La Liga after almost 20 years outside of it in the early 90s, they became a big team in Spain almost instantly, getting into Europe for the first time ever (and staying there) and being altogether awesome. For like 10 or so years they were top 3 nearly every year, 2nd a bunch of times. One of the best examples, especially given the length of time they sustained it.

If you look at tables of different leagues from 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago it's pretty obvious things change dramatically. It happens. Just because you're used to how things line up now, doesn't mean it is, will continue to be, or should be thought of as, the norm.

My biggest issue is that in FM you see mid table teams finish on a high end almost instantly in the first, if not, second season. That's my main complaint about the realism. I mean, there's no chance that a team like Fiorentina or Palermo can win the Serie A in the next two seasons. Yet in FM it seems possible that teams like that can in 2011/2012 or 2012/2013.

Other example. In a few games I've played I saw teams like Sporting Gijon, Everton, 1. FC Köln finish in the top 4 in their leagues in the first season (2011/2012). Look at their squads from this season. There is absolutely no way those teams can finish that high this season or next season and end up playing in the Champions League.

You see where I'm coming from?

Also, agree on the posts made about cup matches. The top teams tend to use almost a complete B-team in their first round matches, resulting in them being eleminated at a lot of occassions. Whilst in real life they nearly always use 3 or 4 of their first team players. This issue mainly happens in Holland and Germany is my experience. I saw the likes of Ajax and Bayern München being eliminated by teams like Noordwijk and Sandhausen.

I think this thread can be summarized with "yes, SI needs to improve the AI squad building and tactics"...

yes it happens, that the odd strange team gates to europe. but EVERY SEASON on multiple saves lower teams are winning the FA cup and league cups

I said it somewhere else but teams need to re-evaluate competitions importance to them during the season. Big teams may start out not caring about the league cup but once they get knocked out of Europe and the FA cup it suddenly becomes important I'm not convinced the AI does this.