Should I buy the latest FM or wait for a patch?

Im not even aware when the last FM came out as I stopped paying attention after FM 10. Back then I remember you could never buy the game when it came out, you had to wait for the 3rd patch every time for them to balance it out.

But I bought it when the 3rd patch came out, and enjoyed it. It still had the same problems as every other one, and you could never play a given save for more than a few seasons before you were a super team and all the other big teams had their best players retire without replacing them with anyone (is this still a problem?). Also the tactics engine was complete **** because as always you had to design your tactics to the game's engine, and not real football. For example, there were a few iterations of FM, perhaps 2008 and 2009, where thru-balls were non-existent, and crossing was super powerful. In games like that, Bendtner would be the best striker, and footballer of the year, and you would benefit from playing with wingers who crossed the ball in, and setting target men. This was in stark contrast to FM 07, where players with pace, dribbling, and flair were the be all end all. In FM 10, it was the same situation, I tried copying my 4-4-2 that had worked so well in FM 09, and it was terrible in FM 10 even though it was the exact same tactic. Either real football changed from 2009 to 2010, where a good tactic one year is a bad one the next year, or FM 10 didnt care about good football tactics, it only cared about good FM tactics for that particular engine.

This took the fun out of creating tactics completely, and I ended up just downloading a godly 4-1-2-3. I ended up having some fun and feeling brilliant in modding it for late in the game when I was behind, turning it into this 1-DC ultra attacking tactic that worked wonders once the other team sat back their wings.

Anyway, I got tired with FM 10 because I know who all the good players are, and I never got to create my own tactic in the first place because the tactic engine sucked so much so I was getting tired just going from the one I downloaded to a few modded versions I did for the lead vs leading vs other scenarios.

Im wondering if I should buy the latest FM now. Is anything fixed? They never seemed to fix anything before 2010 but I thought Id ask. Is the game fully patched and playable and balanced now, or are they still experimenting with how hard headers and shots are and everything?

Or should I buy Football Manager 11? Its always nice to have the most updated rosters, but its not integral for me. If the fully patched version of Football Manager 11 is better than Football Manager 12 at this point, then I would buy that. Is that the case or is FM 12 better? Let me know your thoughts.

I'm very happy with FM12, but I elected to go to offline mode on steam so as not to download the latest patch. From the multiple threads of derision of the new patch I think I made a very good choice. If I accidentally hit "Go Online" one day on steam and the patch downloads then of course I would try it, but if it is as awful as a lot of people seem to think it is then I would stop playing altogether.

Out of the box FM12 is amazing though. I'm not sure if you could install it and then go offline to not download any further patches, not sure steam would let you play it if it knows there is a download for it because it has recently been online.

If there is no way to play without the latest patch then I'd recommend getting FM11, fully patched it is great, you are missing out on a lot of useful features in FM12 though and there is always a chance that SI will fix it.

From a 'playing' perspective rather than an 'official' one I think that FM12 in patch 12.1.1 is the most rounded, fun and competitive version of FM ever. In previous versions I've destroyed teams with a few astute signings and one tactic - in this one I've had to work at it and it's so much more satisfying when you achieve something.

Well there's the party line, I guess. I've played Football Manager and formerly Championship Manager for more than a decade now and this is the first time I've ever lost interest in the game and it is entirely to do with this latest patch, which castrates the freedom to play the transfer market, imposes arbitrary and completely unrealistic limitations on organising your own backroom, bogs you down in the endless grind of uninteresting, superficial player interactions and then seemingly removes any reward at end when it comes to the match simulation.

What's really frustrating is the hubris of SI's shills who continue to insist this is the greatest rendition of management simulation. Absolute rubbish. Neil, you guys at SI seem to have forgotten, you're meant to be pleasing the players and not just yourselves.

For the first time, I'm actually tempted to switch to the competition, especially with the Steam sales at the moment. Address our grievances instead of playing ostrich!

Well there's the party line, I guess. I've played Football Manager and formerly Championship Manager for more than a decade now and this is the first time I've ever lost interest in the game and it is entirely to do with this latest patch, which castrates the freedom to play the transfer market, imposes arbitrary and completely unrealistic limitations on organising your own backroom, bogs you down in the endless grind of uninteresting, superficial player interactions and then seemingly removes any reward at end when it comes to the match simulation.

What's really frustrating is the hubris of SI's shills who continue to insist this is the greatest rendition of management simulation. Absolute rubbish. Neil, you guys at SI seem to have forgotten, you're meant to be pleasing the players and not just yourselves.

For the first time, I'm actually tempted to switch to the competition, especially with the Steam sales at the moment. Address our grievances instead of playing ostrich!

Erm, I'm a paying customer and I'm pretty happy with the latest patch. Just because you aren't enjoying it doesn't mean other people aren't.

Personally I'd say the current game is the best yet, but for OP, if you didn't like FM10 or FM07, then I probably wouldn't recommend it. Those were my two favourite versions of the series before this one, and if you're expecting a perfect football simulation, then tbh, I doubt you'll ever be happy with any game on the market.

FM12 is better than FM11 is better than FM10 is better than FM09.

Well there's the party line, I guess. I've played Football Manager and formerly Championship Manager for more than a decade now and this is the first time I've ever lost interest in the game and it is entirely to do with this latest patch, which castrates the freedom to play the transfer market, imposes arbitrary and completely unrealistic limitations on organising your own backroom, bogs you down in the endless grind of uninteresting, superficial player interactions and then seemingly removes any reward at end when it comes to the match simulation.

What's really frustrating is the hubris of SI's shills who continue to insist this is the greatest rendition of management simulation. Absolute rubbish. Neil, you guys at SI seem to have forgotten, you're meant to be pleasing the players and not just yourselves.

For the first time, I'm actually tempted to switch to the competition, especially with the Steam sales at the moment. Address our grievances instead of playing ostrich!

What competition that then ?? oh wait you mean the highly realistic and successful Fifa manager

Unlike you guys clapping like trained sea lions on this thread, I'm specific about the things that work and the things that detract from the game and I invite you to challenge in my criticisms which I've linked below. And neither am I adverse to trialling the competition or simply playing something else, since SI apparently have forgotten the fundamental premise of gaming: it HAS to be FUN!

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/291672-Football-Manager-12.1.1-update-*OFFICIAL*-Feedback-Thread?p=7433768#post7433768

Done, and I actually agree with more about your post than I disagree with. Not bad for a trained sea lion.

FM12 is better than FM11 is better than FM10 is better than FM09.

I couldn't said better!

With every version the game gets better, and with every new patch the game gets better!

Is it a perfect game? NO

Does it have bug? YES

Does it sometimes drives you mad with stupid things that you cant understand? SURE

But despite all that, it's the best football manager ever!

Done, and I actually agree with more about your post than I disagree with. Not bad for a trained sea lion.

Apologies for the cheap shot.

Well there's the party line, I guess. I've played Football Manager and formerly Championship Manager for more than a decade now and this is the first time I've ever lost interest in the game and it is entirely to do with this latest patch, which castrates the freedom to play the transfer market, imposes arbitrary and completely unrealistic limitations on organising your own backroom, bogs you down in the endless grind of uninteresting, superficial player interactions and then seemingly removes any reward at end when it comes to the match simulation.

What's really frustrating is the hubris of SI's shills who continue to insist this is the greatest rendition of management simulation. Absolute rubbish. Neil, you guys at SI seem to have forgotten, you're meant to be pleasing the players and not just yourselves.

For the first time, I'm actually tempted to switch to the competition, especially with the Steam sales at the moment. Address our grievances instead of playing ostrich!

I'm a paying customer and i am happy with the latest patch.

You say you can no longer "play" the transfer market, what exactly do you mean ? if you mean it is now harder to make unrealistic transfers then i dont have a problem with this.

Unrealistic limitations on organising your own backroom staff, again im not sure exactly what you mean, unless of course you mean you can only hire the number of lets say coaches the board say you need and no go over etc, again i have no problem.

I would also be interested if you could point me in the direction of the so called "competition" thats out there...

I'm a paying customer and i am happy with the latest patch.

You say you can no longer "play" the transfer market, what exactly do you mean ? if you mean it is now harder to make unrealistic transfers then i dont have a problem with this.

Unrealistic limitations on organising your own backroom staff, again im not sure exactly what you mean, unless of course you mean you can only hire the number of lets say coaches the board say you need and no go over etc, again i have no problem.

I would also be interested if you could point me in the direction of the so called "competition" thats out there...

My criticisms re: the transfer market and backroom staff allocation were specific and I provided the link to them in my previous post above, which you probably should have checked out before your unnecessary conjecture as to my meaning. A bit of advice: you'll need more than a strawman argument to give me a moment for pause, I haven't seen anyone say "unrealistic transfers" should be easier to make; very weak stuff mate.

As for the "competition", have you seen the Steam Sale that going on right now? You get that there are thousands of games out there right and that management sims form only a tiny niche?

I actually said it from my own perspective rather than the 'official party line' but okay no worries. We always appreciate constructive feedback, even if it isn't positive so if you have any specific issues which you feel are bugs (must say the backroom organisation is not considered a bug but a fix for an exploit) then please do let us know, ideally in the Bugs Forum. Thanks.

Neil, the fact that you guys regard the backroom organisation as a fix is the problem. It looks like a lazy move.

Rather than impose a logical performance cost on coaches assigned to both youth and senior training schedules to encourage players to hire 1st team team and youth team specific coaches, you guys introduced an artificial limit on the types of coaches players could hire which is leaving a lot of players peeved because it smacks of fakery to prop up a less well conceived component of the game's training system.

The thing is there's ALWAYS been a limit on the types of coaches you can have, it just wasn't working properly before. Yes, it's not an ideal solution, but this scenario is better than the system which could be exploited before.

Neil, if you check the Board Overview screen, you'll see those limits are described as "advised" which suggests players have more freedom in organising how to allocate their coaches than if you used a more rigid term like say "limit". Besides I've yet to see a convincing argument as to why a player shouldn't have the freedom to allocate his coaches as he/she sees fit, this game is called "Football Manager" right? What I find a little remarkable is the fact that you're saying this feature which has been present in the last two or three instalments of the game hasn't worked at all pretty much until now, where it is 'kind of' working. I didn't see any hordes clamouring about it until this half-weight "fix".

Seems to me like rather than adding superficial components to the game like the player interaction and contract negotiation systems which slow things down without adding fun, you guys ought to have re-conceived existing features like training which for several seasons now have remained unrefined.

My criticisms re: the transfer market and backroom staff allocation were specific and I provided the link to them in my previous post above, which you probably should have checked out before your unnecessary conjecture as to my meaning. A bit of advice: you'll need more than a strawman argument to give me a moment for pause, I haven't seen anyone say "unrealistic transfers" should be easier to make; very weak stuff mate.

As for the "competition", have you seen the Steam Sale that going on right now? You get that there are thousands of games out there right and that management sims form only a tiny niche?

i have read your link actually, i dont agree with most of what you put, i'll give you a few counter arguments or my OPINION but i get the impression you only want to read things if people agree with you, seeing as you accuse people of being trained sea lions who will clap and accept anything (i imagine is what you meant) because some people post saying they like or dont have a problem with the changes, you said in your other post that you linked,

It makes no sense that a first team coach will never be interested in another coaching role irrespective of the club stature and salary - why does it make no sense, from what i read purely because you dont believe this will happen, if a coach does not like coaching youngsters for example this "person" is not forced to take the job just because you are tripping his wage or whatever, there can be multiple reason for someone not wanting to take a job.

in addition to the fact that staff can never be demoted - when you say demoted, do you mean they will not take on a different coaching role or go from say a coach to a scouting role? i have offered many coaches different coaching roles, some accept and some do not, this is not silly, this is real life, why should someone take a different role/job just because YOU want them to ? why would a first team coach or youth coach who enjoys doing that want to take a scouting job if they dont like it that type of thing. If you mean something else by "demoted" please explain.

Motivating and player interactions ought to be simplified perhaps in the model of a game like LA Noire - i could not disagree more, while L.A. Noire is a fine game and one i am currently enjoying on my xbox, over simplified does not mean better imo, and if SI did do this there would be lots of people moaning there is not enough choice, just like there was in FM10 if i remember correctly.

Contract negotiation is a complete drag. Whoever designed it forgot this is meant to be a game, not a test of anal retentiveness. - set your ass man to do it for you, easy never bother with it again, if you have players who you dont want make sure they are transfer listed and i believe no contract is offered or accepted, if in your news section you see your star player has turned down his latest contract then you can step in and go offer one your self.

Why not focus on streamlining the game rather than focusing on superficial changes that restrict the game? For instance when selling or loaning player, after you decide to renegotiate an offer what is the point of receiving a new offer from the same club that has to be actioned, when it is identical to the terms you negotiated before? It's unneccessary padding that just slows the game down and makes the whole process a grind when you have to repeat it each transfer window - personally dont have a problem with it, and if you have multiple offers for 1 player im sure you can just select accept all that are equivalent or higher, can say ive ever had that many offers for players that it has took me ages to skim over them.

BTW SI, we have keyboards! Let us use them! Why can't we type in an amount in contract negotiations rather than incessantly tapping our mice to toggle unneccesarily slowly between amounts? And neither we nor our mice enjoy the process, so why does everything have to be a grind? - again i don't have a problem with this 1 or 2 clicks to raise or lower wages for example is no more of a hindrance than typing in the actual number its self, but i do agree that it could be an added option for those that would prefer this.

Positional training ought to be improved. Its a joke that players like Milner can go from being wide players to being a natural central midfielders in between installments of the game, but the in-game process requires indefinite training season after season, that is unless you want the nasty surprise of seeing all that progress lost in spite of regularly fielding the player in that role. - while i agree the positional training side of things could do with a few tweaks, maybe takes longer to unlearn the new position, im not to sure what else can be done, as for the player X goes from being a right winger in say FM11 and in FM12 the same player is now a centre midfield player, well that is down to the researches for each team i believe and SI can only act on the information they are given by each teams researcher, if you dont agree with some of the player stats/positions etc then go post in the relevant forum with why you believe something is wrong, if you have a good reason and informed information then im sure you will be taken seriously.

when you talk of "competition" against FM i imagined you were talking about football management games/sims but not every other game out there, i play a number of different types of game im not a FM only person.

As another paying FM customer, I would say that FM 12 took me the longest to get into and start a long term game, but once you settle and get used to the sutble changes this is definatly my favourite version so far

Blaupunkt I can't believe you made so much effort to produce so little.

The fact is that once a coach is promoted say to being a 1st team coach they will NEVER accept a different role unless it is a promotion to Assistant Manager or Manager. SI seems to have left absolutely no flexibility in that rule which is unrealistic, no ifs, no buts. You can say that some 1st team coach might not accept demotions for certain reasons but to argue that would be case with every coach is demonstrably ludicrous in the real world if that is truly SI's benchmark, for example take a look at John Carver who was Newcastle's Assistant Manager before signing a new contract with them as a Youth coach. Try doing that in the game, and yet its something the argument you've made laughably defends.

Re: simplifying player interactions, once more you present a strawman. Weak sauce! At no point did I or anyone else advocate "oversimplifying" interactions, neither did say I wanted a simple transplant of LA Noire's mechanism which would be equally moronic. What I am saying is that, as with a lot of components in the game there seems to be a lack of clarity, which seems somewhat deliberate on SI's part. You have a myriad of vaguely defined personality types, couple that with an array of tones each with a subset of comments. Really, its just smoke and mirrors, a distraction from the lack of substance. Are you really going to make the case to me that selecting a canned comment from a set of generic remarks adequately conveys the notion of a having had a worthwhile interaction with a player in your squad? Does it feel meaningful in anyway? Does it add any tangible depth? No, its a pretty worthless mechanism as applied in Football Manager. For lack of spontaneity, it lacks any sense of fun and drama; a complication inadequately justified. Has anyone ever felt moved to empathise with a player they've tried to transfer list when greeted with the response "but my family and I are settled in the area"? I seriously doubt it, 90% are irked thinking "remember when we just clicked 'transfer list'?" and the other 10% are trying to work out how SI delineates a "resilient" personality from a "resolute" one. Fun times.

As for contract negotiations, thanks for essentially validating my point. By suggesting it to be preferable to lose control of a massive chunk of the game in terms of controlling your own wage bill by handing it over to AI in order compensate for SI's poorly conceived negotiation system, you've inadvertently supported my assertion it is about as conducive to fun as rambling in the Peak District with Raoul Moat.

Your suggestion re: my point about getting rid of the unnecessary padding resembles a doctor recommending weightwatchers session to individual who needs a gastric band; and when you have a negotiation with an agent with a high patience rating, you know well that it's not one or two clicks, you have a host of terms to toggle down which you have to repeat over, and over until you reach a good deal.

All this makes me wonder, why have you taken it upon yourself to serve as SI's apologist in the face of reason and logic, even Neil has admitted some of the game's shortcomings? All you've done in your post is make the regressive case, excusing and trying to minimise flaws in Football Manager many of which you have been putting up with for at least three years now, don't you want the game to be refined? Talk about arguing against your own interests.

PS your suggestion regarding positional training is way off. The problem is a lack of internal consistency and you seem to be excusing the lack of external consistency too. Milner starts off as a natural MC and remains one irrespective throughout his career in this instalment of Football Manager, why then when you wait 2 seasons and more to train a player to "natural" for a position should he lose expertise in that area in any case when it doesn't happen with other natural positions? First off it seems SI haven't understood the permanence implied in a term like "natural", but why should there be a second-class set of "natural" players who for the rest of their careers have to be burdened with extra training. Gross illogicity.

Blaupunkt I can't believe you made so much effort to produce so little.

it was not that much effort

The fact is that once a coach is promoted say to being a 1st team coach they will NEVER accept a different role unless it is a promotion to Assistant Manager or Manager. SI seems to have left absolutely no flexibility in that rule which is unrealistic, no ifs, no buts. You can say that some 1st team coach might not accept demotions for certain reasons but to argue that would be case with every coach is demonstrably ludicrous in the real world if that is truly SI's benchmark, for example take a look at John Carver who was Newcastle's Assistant Manager before signing a new contract with them as a Youth coach. Try doing that in the game, and yet its something the argument you've made laughably defends.

the fact ? im sorry its not fact its your opinion you are claiming is fact! as i said i have had coaches accept different roles, maybe not very often but it has happened, i think if you read my post correctly i said that some will accept that type of role and some will not, just as you have posted in your real world example, ill give you an example, Steve McClaren fantastic coach to an average at best manager, now he has tasted being the number 1 for so many years i doubt he will be to interested in going back to a coaching role under someone else, NOTE: i am not saying it could never happen just very unlikely.

Re: simplifying player interactions, once more you present a strawman. Weak sauce! At no point did I or anyone else advocate "oversimplifying" interactions, neither did say I wanted a simple transplant of LA Noire's mechanism which would be equally moronic. What I am saying is that, as with a lot of components in the game there seems to be a lack of clarity, which seems somewhat deliberate on SI's part. You have a myriad of vaguely defined personality types, couple that with an array of tones each with a subset of comments. Really, its just smoke and mirrors, a distraction from the lack of substance. Are you really going to make the case to me that selecting a canned comment from a set of generic remarks adequately conveys the notion of a having had a worthwhile interaction with a player in your squad? Does it feel meaningful in anyway? Does it add any tangible depth? No, its a pretty worthless mechanism as applied in Football Manager. For lack of spontaneity, it lacks any sense of fun and drama; a complication inadequately justified. Has anyone ever felt moved to empathise with a player they've tried to transfer list when greeted with the response "but my family and I are settled in the area"? I seriously doubt it, 90% are irked thinking "remember when we just clicked 'transfer list'?" and the other 10% are trying to work out how SI delineates a "resilient" personality from a "resolute" one. Fun times.

errm ? im quite sure you were the one who brought up L.A. Noire as an example not me, im simply using it because you did, obviously i miss understood, i thought by giving an example of another game that this was the type of thing you were suggesting SI should do with the team talks, you keep saying strawman and weak source, yet the source am i using is the one you suggested!, i am quite happy with the options for team talks, do i use them all ? no, i use about 3 or 4 in each tone depending on whats happened in the game. If its so worth less and ads nothing then why don't you come up with something that is better and tell SI how they should implement it into FM - again i do not totally disagree that the team talks do still need work, but you are still basing your opinion as factual, you seem to hate or at best dislike how it currently is, where as i think its OK but can still be improved.

As for contract negotiations, thanks for essentially validating my point. By suggesting it to be preferable to lose control of a massive chunk of the game in terms of controlling your own wage bill by handing it over to AI in order compensate for SI's poorly conceived negotiation system, you've inadvertently supported my assertion it is about as conducive to fun as rambling in the Peak District with Raoul Moat.

i am simply stating what you could do not should do, i handle all contract talks when i play, i dont mind doing it, im sure IRL its not the bundle of fun you imagine it to be?, a lot of managers in the real world no longer get involved with contract negotiations, and if you really hate it that much then neither do you, i have not inadvertently supported anything, how do you think real world football contract negotiations actually work, the fact you can link that persons name with this tells me quite a lot, i think its sick personally, it does not make you look big or cleaver, it makes you look like a prat. [edit for this bold]

Your suggestion re: my point about getting rid of the unnecessary padding resembles a doctor recommending weightwatchers session to individual who needs a gastric band; and when you have a negotiation with an agent with a high patience rating, you know well that it's not one or two clicks, you have a host of terms to toggle down which you have to repeat over, and over until you reach a good deal.

what is the difference between typing and a few clicks ? nothing, i have no problem with how the contract negotiations work, whether we have to type them in or click +- signs makes no difference to me, again if you have a better way of handling contract negotiations than please say, or are you suggesting that contract negotiations in football don't have all those types of options ? again you dont like this feature i do think it adds realism to the game, im sure that agents do ask for the type of things shown in FM.

All this makes me wonder, why have you taken it upon yourself to serve as SI's apologist in the face of reason and logic, even Neil has admitted some of the game's shortcomings? All you've done in your post is make the regressive case, excusing and trying to minimise flaws in Football Manager many of which you have been putting up with for at least three years now, don't you want the game to be refined? Talk about arguing against your own interests.

i am not apologising for anything, i accept FM has flaws but i can look past them and enjoy the game for what it is, from reading your posts you seem to be under the illusion that everyone agrees with you, that your opinion is all fact, so one of the SI guys admits there the game has some shortcomings, im sure lots of developers will admit such things, yet i get the impression you think he also agrees with everything you are posting, i have not seem this post can you please link it.

PS your suggestion regarding positional training is way off. The problem is a lack of internal consistency and you seem to be excusing the lack of external consistency too. Milner starts off as a natural MC and remains one irrespective throughout his career in this instalment of Football Manager, why then when you wait 2 seasons and more to train a player to "natural" for a position should he lose expertise in that area in any case when it doesn't happen with other natural positions? First off it seems SI haven't understood the permanence implied in a term like "natural", but why should there be a second-class set of "natural" players who for the rest of their careers have to be burdened with extra training. Gross illogicity.

i understand what you are saying, i am not excusing anything, maybe a player should lose his other natural position if he no longer plays it over time or maybe not, but i dont have the big issue with this like you do, as i said in my other post i dont believe this feature is not broken but maybe just needs a few tweaks, remember that is my opinion not factual.

Blaupunkt I can't believe you made so much effort to produce so little.

The fact is that once a coach is promoted say to being a 1st team coach they will NEVER accept a different role unless it is a promotion to Assistant Manager or Manager. SI seems to have left absolutely no flexibility in that rule which is unrealistic, no ifs, no buts. You can say that some 1st team coach might not accept demotions for certain reasons but to argue that would be case with every coach is demonstrably ludicrous in the real world if that is truly SI's benchmark, for example take a look at John Carver who was Newcastle's Assistant Manager before signing a new contract with them as a Youth coach. Try doing that in the game, and yet its something the argument you've made laughably defends.

Re: simplifying player interactions, once more you present a strawman. Weak sauce! At no point did I or anyone else advocate "oversimplifying" interactions, neither did say I wanted a simple transplant of LA Noire's mechanism which would be equally moronic. What I am saying is that, as with a lot of components in the game there seems to be a lack of clarity, which seems somewhat deliberate on SI's part. You have a myriad of vaguely defined personality types, couple that with an array of tones each with a subset of comments. Really, its just smoke and mirrors, a distraction from the lack of substance. Are you really going to make the case to me that selecting a canned comment from a set of generic remarks adequately conveys the notion of a having had a worthwhile interaction with a player in your squad? Does it feel meaningful in anyway? Does it add any tangible depth? No, its a pretty worthless mechanism as applied in Football Manager. For lack of spontaneity, it lacks any sense of fun and drama; a complication inadequately justified. Has anyone ever felt moved to empathise with a player they've tried to transfer list when greeted with the response "but my family and I are settled in the area"? I seriously doubt it, 90% are irked thinking "remember when we just clicked 'transfer list'?" and the other 10% are trying to work out how SI delineates a "resilient" personality from a "resolute" one. Fun times.

As for contract negotiations, thanks for essentially validating my point. By suggesting it to be preferable to lose control of a massive chunk of the game in terms of controlling your own wage bill by handing it over to AI in order compensate for SI's poorly conceived negotiation system, you've inadvertently supported my assertion it is about as conducive to fun as rambling in the Peak District with Raoul Moat.

Your suggestion re: my point about getting rid of the unnecessary padding resembles a doctor recommending weightwatchers session to individual who needs a gastric band; and when you have a negotiation with an agent with a high patience rating, you know well that it's not one or two clicks, you have a host of terms to toggle down which you have to repeat over, and over until you reach a good deal.

All this makes me wonder, why have you taken it upon yourself to serve as SI's apologist in the face of reason and logic, even Neil has admitted some of the game's shortcomings? All you've done in your post is make the regressive case, excusing and trying to minimise flaws in Football Manager many of which you have been putting up with for at least three years now, don't you want the game to be refined? Talk about arguing against your own interests.

PS your suggestion regarding positional training is way off. The problem is a lack of internal consistency and you seem to be excusing the lack of external consistency too. Milner starts off as a natural MC and remains one irrespective throughout his career in this instalment of Football Manager, why then when you wait 2 seasons and more to train a player to "natural" for a position should he lose expertise in that area in any case when it doesn't happen with other natural positions? First off it seems SI haven't understood the permanence implied in a term like "natural", but why should there be a second-class set of "natural" players who for the rest of their careers have to be burdened with extra training. Gross illogicity.

If you hate the game so much go play Fifa M. or Championship Manager. Seems like that community would enjoy you more.

Blaupunkt, what a risible response, I'm starting think you have issues with your verbal comprehension, so I'm going to spoon feed you. First off when I say "weak sauce", I mean "weak sauce", not 'weak source'. Getting on to your feigned outrage at the Raoul Moat line, I pose you the question: would you be able to enjoy the great outdoors in the company of an unhinged gunman? I'm guessing you wouldn't and neither would I, so getting on to the more trivial issue of Football Manager's contract negotiation system, that too is unenjoyable in its present form as I've said before it resembles a Freudian test of anal retentiveness, which is fine if thats what apparently floats your boat, the rest of us find it a repetitive grind.

Returning to the subject of "weak sauce", to define it for you weak sauce resembles your line of argument that in order for me to criticise elements of Football Manager, I have to have ready made solutions that I can pass on to SI. Overlooking the fact that none of your suggestions when criticising my comments have been constructive fixes, first of all I have made suggestions of specific improvements in the post you're selectively ignoring. But where your argument falls flat on its face is in the fact that we are all entitled to like and dislike things, without qualification even, its called having an opinion Comrade Jo, deal with it.

Blaupunkt put your money where your mouth is. Tell me the name of one '1st team coach' who I can approach in the game and hire as either a coach or heaven forbid even a 'youth coach'. Then you can contest what I assert as fact that: "once a coach is promoted say to being a 1st team coach they will NEVER accept a different [coaching] role unless it is a promotion to Assistant Manager or Manager".

Also it's quite amusing to see how bumfuzzled you are about LA Noire, but I'm not surprised, afterall you apparently don't understand nature as a concept. To say something is natural to someone, is to say that feature is an intrinsic element of their makeup which is stable over time ie permanent, something which SI half-subscribes to given that player's starting positions remain consistent over time just not the ones trained in the game.

btw look up apologist!

And Tyler, when you find something substantive to say to me, I'll be happy to deflate it.

Or should I buy Football Manager 11? Its always nice to have the most updated rosters, but its not integral for me. If the fully patched version of Football Manager 11 is better than Football Manager 12 at this point, then I would buy that. Is that the case or is FM 12 better? Let me know your thoughts.

FM isnt perfect, but this is my favourite so far. Its in a good state actually, some big improvements on 10, some things still not fixed mind, particularly in the ME, but they require a new ME before they are addressed, hopefully that will be finished in time for FM13.

I say forget all the haters and nay-sayers, in my honest opinion FM12 is one of the best games ever, especially after the lastest patch. I've been playing FM since FM06 and it has only gotten better since then. For me there's not really a truly big issue about gameplay or player interaction or even the M.E., the game is on borderline perfect, and by NO means am I a trained sea lion. If you have a problem with the game then fine but like I said and a poster above me said the GAME has its issues but its not unplayable, for me its truly the most realistic football management game out there.

So what Im getting from the posts here is that FM 11 patch 3 is great, and so is FM 12 out of the box, but FM 12 patch #1 messes the game up?

Is that accurate to what people are saying?

If I were to play FM 11 on patch 3 or FM 12 out of the box, which would you recommend?

Basically, over the last two seasons, there has been:

-FM 11 out of box

-FM 11 patch 1

-FM 11 patch 2

-FM 11 patch 3

-FM 12 out of box

-FM 12 patch 1

Which is the best?

So what Im getting from the posts here is that FM 11 patch 3 is great, and so is FM 12 out of the box, but FM 12 patch #1 messes the game up?

Is that accurate to what people are saying?

If I were to play FM 11 on patch 3 or FM 12 out of the box, which would you recommend?

Basically, over the last two seasons, there has been:

-FM 11 out of box

-FM 11 patch 1

-FM 11 patch 2

-FM 11 patch 3

-FM 12 out of box

-FM 12 patch 1

Which is the best?

FM12 patch 1, in my view anyway. Its subjective whether patch one messes up the game, some like it some dont

There isn't much difference in the fuss made from a handful of people over 12.1.1 as there was from a different handful of people regarding 11.3, but 12.1.1 does not suit everyone.

From the OP, I would suggest that you wait for the final patch as there will obviously be some tweaking to all aspects of the game between now and the final patch, but equally if you played now it wouldn't be a bad thing as the game is pretty good without any show-stopping imbalances.

Buy now.

Godot ain't coming...

I suppose there will be a final patch for FM2012, after january transfer window.

This final patch will have a database update for all the transfers, but i think that the update will tweak very little in the game.

The game, is great the way it is, there are some minor bugs, none of them game breaking.

Because all that, the final patch will be much more a database update then a game update.

So, if you want to play with the latest transfers, wait untill the final patch, otherwise just start playing right now.

So what Im getting from the posts here is that FM 11 patch 3 is great, and so is FM 12 out of the box, but FM 12 patch #1 messes the game up?

Is that accurate to what people are saying?

If I were to play FM 11 on patch 3 or FM 12 out of the box, which would you recommend?

Basically, over the last two seasons, there has been:

-FM 11 out of box

-FM 11 patch 1

-FM 11 patch 2

-FM 11 patch 3

-FM 12 out of box

-FM 12 patch 1

Which is the best?

If you enjoy dealing in the transfer market, I'd say don't install the patch for the latest game as not being able to adjust the transfer/wage budget freely means that you'll have to clear one set of transfers at a time, and often miss out on deals because a player will want a couple thousand pounds a week more than your able to offer in spite of having room in your wage budget. Being unable to adjust the slider for certain players will force you to work on one transfer at a time so that you can have the budget slider placed accordingly to ensure you'll have enough wage resources. In other cases you can end up missing out on players, again in spite of having enough budget because you might have a number of transfers in progress that take up the transfer funds you allocated, you cannot readjust the slider until you have no transfers in progress which means you'll have to cancel your bid and wait, its especially annoying when other clubs are negotiating with the player. It removes much of the fun with nothing in return. I had a situation where I needed £3.1m to sign Maxwell for Man Utd, I had about 0.5m allocated in transfer fees but a huge 500k a week remaining of my wage budget which probably translates to about £20 million in transfer fees. The patch prevents you from readjusting your funds, there isn't even an option at the confirmation msg which just asks you if you want to delay until you get some funds, so you have to cancel your bid, readjust the slider and start again. It's just stupid.

Blaupunkt, what a risible response, I'm starting think you have issues with your verbal comprehension, so I'm going to spoon feed you. First off when I say "weak sauce", I mean "weak sauce", not 'weak source'. Getting on to your feigned outrage at the Raoul Moat line, I pose you the question: would you be able to enjoy the great outdoors in the company of an unhinged gunman? I'm guessing you wouldn't and neither would I, so getting on to the more trivial issue of Football Manager's contract negotiation system, that too is unenjoyable in its present form as I've said before it resembles a Freudian test of anal retentiveness, which is fine if thats what apparently floats your boat, the rest of us find it a repetitive grind.

Returning to the subject of "weak sauce", to define it for you weak sauce resembles your line of argument that in order for me to criticise elements of Football Manager, I have to have ready made solutions that I can pass on to SI. Overlooking the fact that none of your suggestions when criticising my comments have been constructive fixes, first of all I have made suggestions of specific improvements in the post you're selectively ignoring. But where your argument falls flat on its face is in the fact that we are all entitled to like and dislike things, without qualification even, its called having an opinion Comrade Jo, deal with it.

Blaupunkt put your money where your mouth is. Tell me the name of one '1st team coach' who I can approach in the game and hire as either a coach or heaven forbid even a 'youth coach'. Then you can contest what I assert as fact that: "once a coach is promoted say to being a 1st team coach they will NEVER accept a different [coaching] role unless it is a promotion to Assistant Manager or Manager".

Also it's quite amusing to see how bumfuzzled you are about LA Noire, but I'm not surprised, afterall you apparently don't understand nature as a concept. To say something is natural to someone, is to say that feature is an intrinsic element of their makeup which is stable over time ie permanent, something which SI half-subscribes to given that player's starting positions remain consistent over time just not the ones trained in the game.

btw look up apologist!

And Tyler, when you find something substantive to say to me, I'll be happy to deflate it.

You come across as if you think you are talking for the vast majority of FM players out there, i very much doubt you do, you have stated your opinion and called it facts in a couple of posts, i have never done this, i am quite happy for people to like and dislike different parts of the game to me, neither will i come out on the defensive and attack their opinion as you do because it differs to mine, i find various parts of what you have said to be of a "weaksauce" also, for anyone unsure check the urban dictionary for the meaning.

You asked for people to comment on what you wrote/linked i did this, i did not realise that you wanted me or anyone else for that matter to give examples on how to fix issues you have with the game and why should i, after all they are not my issues! if you dislike these parts of the game so much then does it not stand to reason that you might have idea's your self on how these things can be "streamlined" or improved up on ?

You say i need to deal with others having a different opinion and that i struggle with comprehension, yet you are the one ranting because my opinion differs you yours, and have done since my first post, i have said a few times that all of this is just opinions and not factual, i dont think I'm the one struggling.

Thanks for the help everyone! I should say I very much appreciate everyone helping so far. And to those of you (I didnt make note of the names) that have big complaints about the game in this most recent form, not having it played it myself yet, Im sure youre not just making it up. If its bothering you then its an issue. Those issues bother some more than others. I am definitely one of the many people where the issues do detract from the game. Essentially, FM is about the most fun I can have playing video games when its new, and when Im starting new games, the first few seasons. I always play sort of a bottom-five premier team and bring them to the top of the league in a year or two. Thats always fun.

But the game literally unravels as it goes along. I think thats because, when the game is new, everything is set, and there is only so much things can change in one season. If you have the budget and acumen, you can change your team a lot for the better in one season, but all the other teams stay mostly stagnant. And since they mirror real life teams, at that point they are well put together, and everything works okay.

Its as the game goes on, the "A.I" of the game so to speak, in just about every way, is terrible, and cant keep up. Whenever the game has to "change" something, so to speak, whenever a roster needs changing, whenever a player retires and needs replacing, whenever your team gets good enough that the other big teams should be responding with their own transfers, the game fails.

So when recommending which version of the game I buy, I was hoping you could do so based on the specific criteria I laid out in the top post.

• Is the match engine balanced? I very much liked the FM 2010 patch 3 match engine, as unlike the year before, 20/20 passing/creativity passers could actually make plays through the middle. In FM 09, I would get all these great passers together, whether Riquelme or someone better later on, Fabregas, I forget who else, and nothing. They dont get their assists. Meanwhile, David Beckham is winning World Footballer of the year from the wing because the match engine favored headers over thru balls. I just want to make sure everyone understands what i mean by balance. In some match engines, headers are very powerful, and you are rewarded for building your team around aerial threats. Some match engines, they favor goals from the ground, dribbling, pace, like the FM 07 match engine.

I felt the 2010 engine was pretty well balanced. Which is the best FM 11 or FM 12, and which patch?

• The game's A.I. Has this been fixed at all since FM 10? If I get into a long game, and build my team into a super team, and meanwhile Man Utd has all their best players retire, will they respond? Will they make that 80M transfer? Or even if its just a 30M transfer, but will they make a smart transfer? If they have a hole at defense, when Ferdinand and Vidic retire, will they make some mediocre transfer for a young brazilian defender who isnt half as good and just develop him and not doing, or will they really go out and get the best central defender out there? In other words, will games fall apart and become much too easy after 4-5 seasons like in FM 10, or has that been fixed?

•*Transfer listing players. In FM 10, I always look to get the most money possible for each of my players. Unfortunately, this means basically every transfer window, every day of that transfer window, I have to "offer to all teams" each individual player, one by one, every day, adjusting the asking price slightly, sometimes just doing the same one over and over, and it usually takes about 10-20 "offer to all clubs" FOR EACH PLAYER Im trying to sell just to get the winning bid in. Its such awful busy work, takes forever, exhausting. Have they fixed this so I only have to offer to all once, maybe get a preliminary offer, and then it once or twice more to "negotiate" and then get a team's best offer? Maybe if it came along with a message that said "this is our best offer," and teams never went above that, that would be a good way to do it. And it would be helpful if teams made their offers earlier in the transfer window. Every window goes down to the wire trying to balance "will this guy get sold? will I have the money i need" and signing people. Teams are interested in your player, but you hear nothing from them for 10 days, no way to contact them individually and talk about the player, tell them you want to sell him before the deadline if at all so you have time to plan your signings. But you never can! Its this busy work mess where you have to do the same thing ("offer to all clubs" about 150 times every window, I kid you not, just to get offers. Has this been fixed at all, and if so in what version of the game?

•*Teams are interested but only "Loan to Buy." This was so stupid and annoying from the start. 90% of the interest you get in FM 10 is loan to buy, and then magically the next window they want to buy him. Most transfers in real life are transfers, most teams if they are going to pay want to own the player. Why all this loan to buy stuff? And then when I tell them Im not looking for loan to buy, hes not available for loan, they keep making loan offers! And they dont adjust their interest at all. In real life, there would be a way to say "Hes not available for loan to buy. Now are you interested in really signing him, or not?" And some teams wouldnt be interested anymore, but some teams would change their interest in transfer interest. But in FM it never changes! So unrealistic, and it keeps you from selling your players even though teams are interested. Has this been fixed and in which version?

• Tactics during matches. I tried the exact same tactics in FM 09 and FM 10, with almost the exact same players, and they worked great in 09, and terribly in FM 10. That tells me that the tactics engine in either FM 10 or FM 09 was unrealistic. Either it was dead on in FM 09, but then got messed up so my good tactics didnt work anymore, or it was messed up in 09, and it rewarded me for what were actually bad tactics when it shouldnt have.

In other words, football isnt changing that much year to year, so why does somethign work in one FM, and not the other? Because FM is not reflecting real football, at least not both those years (probably neither). What I want to know is, Do FM 11 or FM 12 have tactics engines that reward logic, intelligence, and knowledge of football, or is it like in FM 10 where it rewards knowledge of Football Manager coding and how the match engines works on a binary level? Basically, I want to game plan to football, not to "well I know this is how FM works on the computer, and therefore this works." Im not a computer wiz so I cant even do that. All I know is FM 10, you basically had to know the secrets of how its coded, get lucky, or spend tons of time doing trial and error to make your own good tactic. There were just too many variables and too many things that didnt work intuitively. If your LB and RB kept turning the ball over when trying to pass it to the center midfielders, you could make the RBs attacking mentality higher or raise the defensive line so they were closer, but then they would be too high on the pitch, for example. You could tell them to make shorter passes instead, but if the DCs and DM are covered, then they have to pass to the MCs or wingers or forwards, and theyre farther away. Essentially, you could never change one thing without changing something else, it was very difficult getting every slider to fit together unless you knew the ins and outs not of football, but of the game. You had to play to how the game worked, and not how football worked, and that was the problem. In past versions it seemed simpler, like "do I want my RB and LB to run up the pitch a lot and attack and throw in crosses? Yes. Okay, Ill put them at neutral attacking mentality, allow them to run up the wings, and tell them to cross it when it's there." And they would do that, but those sliders wouldnt mess everything else up. Now it's like, you put your wing backs to normal mentality, theyll be up in the play a little more, but it also messes up their pass percentage, and where they choose to pass, and the shape, and all these unintended things that you dont want. Is that fixed at all? And in what version?

Those have always been my biggest problems with FM. On that criteria specifically, which version of FM should I get of all the FM 11 and FM 12 versions? (read: patches). Thanks for your help! Not being able to sign certain players even if you can triple their salaries just because you're a slightly lower reputation team has always been a huge issue for me with the game, too, as it's so unrealistc, but Im not listing that one here as its not as big a problem as the ones I want you guys to recommend the game on, and I can live with it. Its stupid but it does at least force you to find underrated gems instead of stars and that adds some difficulty to the game that tends to lack it.

To the posters original question in my opinion I would wait until the very last patch comes out. I'll be doing that in future versions as a lot of time tweaking ends up being wasted to me as my tactics always stop working after each patch!! So again IMO the game is never finished until the last patch so pointless in starting before unless you have a lot of time and don't mind constantly adjusting things.

Blaupunkt, man up and address me on the specifics, you haven't shown any substance to this point, so I repeat: put your money where your mouth is. Tell me the name of one '1st team coach' who I can approach in the game and hire as either a coach or heaven forbid even a 'youth coach'. Then you can contest what I assert as fact that: "once a coach is promoted say to being a 1st team coach they will NEVER accept a different [coaching] role unless it is a promotion to Assistant Manager or Manager".

Weak sauce dude, weak sauce...

@Shigglemiggle I'm not sure if this applies to FM 2010, but are you able to highlight several players by holding the shift or ctrl key and clicking their names and then offering them for transfer or loan? You are able to do that in 2012, but as I've pointed out in other posts, its an improvement that still requires refinement.

I think that people sometimes have a tendency to complicate.

think you should buy it