12.1. HUGE step backwards

SI made step backwards with this patch IMO.

Okay, make game harder, it was too easy, but make it harder with better ME, better defending, with strong AI who transfers a lot, dont make it harder with rubish moral settings that ruins this wonderful game.

Now game is harder, mission acomplished, but it is not important if it is harder or more easy, important thing is - is it PLAYABLE?

Now is equally unplayable like it was on 12.04.

Back than it was done with easyness, now with this moral thing.

My team regularly on penalties play like 6-6 and there is eleventh kicker on both teams, you cannot score penalty due low morale, you cannot have smooth game with a lot of goals, no big chances, no nice passing, there are lot of clereance among defenders, you cannot even know who of your guys is in form because there is no decent runs of great games.

I won a league, I have great team, but every win is barely done, like is it written on "game code" that my team is better and that I should won, but it looks like every win is by accident. It is no fun.

I'm very dissapointed, this is not the way this game should function.

You canot make things harder by raising bad moral among players, it would show negatively on million things and make it unreal and unplayable.

There are other solutions damn.

Ok, i know it is hard to be perfect, but why cannot be like 11.3. were? With this new features it would be best game ever.

Please, take this like constructive criticism, my english is poor so it may sound like I'm rude or something.

Cheers.

That is not constructive criticism. That is known as bitching. Apologies for the frivolity.

Dont see why bitching?

I just share my thoughts about game.

I haven't noticed this bad morale?

I have three different saves going and I have no morale problems either.

I haven't experienced any morale problems either. I find morale and team talks actually more realistic. I always hated that players were permanently listed as "superb". No one can be that happy all the time!

The game needed to be a lot harder. It was way too easy and no fun to play because it was no longer a challenge. Patch 12.1.1 has sorted this out now. No morale problems here either. If you have a low reputation and a big club you will have morale problems with players..its realistic. They wont listen to you untill you earn respect. If you give yourself a high reputation and a small club it will be easy to boost morale. In my opinion.. then its a compete waste of time playing the game as it is too easy

Well done SI on the new patch, this imo has made the game harder as it needed to be. As other posters Ihave had no issues with rasising morale and the way it drops and keeps low is more realistic and is great for the game. This was a long time coming as it was to easy to win with 'superb' morale players all the time. All it means is that you have to get your micromanagement better in the game, ie more player interactions at the right time before a game so the morale doesnt drop again. Its all about communication and the amount of time you want to put into it

surely giving people the chance to roll back to previous patches would be the way to go , or not making new patches save game compatible so you would only see the changes if you start a new save .

They wont listen to you untill you earn respect.

But since in FM world respect=reputation, you can't earn respect unless you win something, but if your players don't listen to you and/or aren't motivated you can't win a thing... And if you can't win a thing your reputation doesn't improve.

It's a catch 22 situation...

My only problem with the new patch is the way that the board can now cancel pre-arranged transfers at will. For example I had two transfers arranged 1 for a midfielder and one for a striker. The midfielder cost 800k and the striker was 1.2m. Both were eu nationals so didnt need work permits. Neither had injuries or any longterm bans which would normally mean that the transfer would have probably been cancelled by the board so I cant figure out why the board cancelled the cheaper transfer but allowed the more expensive one. I think this latest patch has ruined what imo was the best FM so far.

i have no morale problems. just the usual injuries, backroom advice destroying my team, the usual.

Totally gutted, red cards a plenty, an invinisble side (agree it was perhaps a bit easy) now losing to a non-league side with 10 men, and unable to win a single game. FM2012 has gone from the most enjoyable in years to a game I probably wont bother wasting my time on again until the next release. Great season ruined!!!!!

Maybe I'm just in the minority, but I'm actually performing about the same after the patch as before the patch, around about the top third of the league I'm in.

The game needed to be a lot harder. It was way too easy and no fun to play because it was no longer a challenge. Patch 12.1.1 has sorted this out now. No morale problems here either. If you have a low reputation and a big club you will have morale problems with players..its realistic. They wont listen to you untill you earn respect. If you give yourself a high reputation and a small club it will be easy to boost morale. In my opinion.. then its a compete waste of time playing the game as it is too easy

The thing is, hardness of the game is done very superficially.

If you wanna make things harder - you need to implement every detail onto it, and if manager suceed in his quest - your team/game/tactics should function wonderfully. Then, it is real challenge, you have ultimate GOAL.

But, it is wrong if you only change morale/team talk thing and that ruins the possibility of having in form player or to succed to have wonderfully enjoyable way of your team play. Now, every win is ugly win. So much struggling. And it is not real.

As I said before, like it is written on some game algorythm that if you are strong and have good tactic - you will win leagues and cups, BUT win every game in struggling manner. And so maaaaaaany missed penalties, so many defense clearences, so many things that ruins 3d watching of the match.

Problem is that SI and some users thinks that game is really harder just because of struggling and ugly winning.

I dont share their thoughts, it is not acceptable to me. I won trophies like I was winning on 12.04 (so it is NOT harder), only now those wins are UGLY wins, I even dont know why am I winning because I dont play better then AI.

It ruins fun for me.

All I want is 11.3 with better AI transfer policy.

Why implementing new team talks thing, why agents thing, so many unnecessary things.

Tactics, decent ME, tranfers.. all that we need.

Now we have something like realism that ruins the fun, but it is not real, there is only one real game and it is called life.

This is problem with all video games, not only FM series.

All I want is 11.3 with better AI transfer policy.

Why implementing new team talks thing, why agents thing, so many unnecessary things.

Tactics, decent ME, tranfers.. all that we need.

I do agree about the morale changes became insanely hard for low rep managers and maked the moral system even more random its more realistic in some ways , however i disagree 11.3 ME was extremely random ,hated it , i don't like that FM 2012 is still using it .

Why implementing agens and new team talks? its called realism get over it .

The part about we only need decent ME and proper AI transfer , i do see it has a necessary thing but its no all we need , if it was no one would buy FM 2012 just because of that

your not giving feedback, your just ranting

the si apolagists are probably people who have 6 hours a day to spend on this game, most of us work full time, have relationships/kids to look after and don't have 40 hours a week to spend on a game, wondering why tactics don't work suddenly or player morale won't increase

games are supossed to be FUN, not a grind...if i wanted to grind i would play demon souls

I always laugh when people say something is unplayable. Unplayable is where the game doesn't work, or there's something so wrong with the game that it's unplayable due to a serious bug (eg if you watched your team win a game 2-0 and it came up saying the opposition won instead, and it doing that every game). Unplayable isn't where the game is too hard, you don't like things being different to how they were previously, etc. People really need to stop trotting out the 'unplayable' line.

Some people just want to pick a team..click continue and win!!! Why the hell do these people bother playing the game. If all you want to do is win..just give yourself the best reputation...sorted!!

the si apolagists are probably people who have 6 hours a day to spend on this game, most of us work full time, have relationships/kids to look after and don't have 40 hours a week to spend on a game, wondering why tactics don't work suddenly or player morale won't increase

games are supossed to be FUN, not a grind...if i wanted to grind i would play demon souls

You make an assumption based on very little susbstance, what evidence do you have for that. There was a 16 page with over 1600 posts on this, thats been open for 6 weeks. There were a lot of people asking for this too be looked at, and it wasnt done on a whim. They presented a lot of evidence for certain things to be changed such as set piece. I wasn't one asking to for the changes, but its turned out to be a good thing. Rather than being bitter and calling them apologists, perhaps you could realise that they have a valid case that put across really well with evidence of things wrong in the game and SI listened to them.

It was much easier to try and make morale more realistic than to make defending more realistic, and also a lot less risky.

I know I have already said it another thread, but I'm ridiculously happy at my decision to go offline on steam until a lot of feedback from the new patch has emerged. Can't see me going online on steam until 12.2, and once again I won't be updating straight away.

I think you mean a huge step forwards. The game is now more realistic.

its bloody awful and shows how random this game actually is, they make a few changes and all of a sudden its like a new game as the things that worked before no longer work! I think I am actually more in love with the idea of this game than the actual game itself, by this I mean I love the thought of being a footy manager but in fact this game actually isnt that good really. Lets hope EA or someone similar invest heavily in this type of game as I beleive it is genuinly open for someone to come along and do this properly.

its bloody awful and shows how random this game actually is, they make a few changes and all of a sudden its like a new game as the things that worked before no longer work! I think I am actually more in love with the idea of this game than the actual game itself, by this I mean I love the thought of being a footy manager but in fact this game actually isnt that good really. Lets hope EA or someone similar invest heavily in this type of game as I beleive it is genuinly open for someone to come along and do this properly.

They have, its called Fifa manager. And its rubbish

yes but they dont really get behind that game or invest much in it I dont think, for example you never seem them advertise it like they do some of there other titles. All i am saying is that although this is by far the best footy manager game out there I think there is a massive opportunity for someone to beat this as there are so many things wrong with it. Also over the last few years the new features in the main have been more annoying than adding much to the game. All we want is a decent/realistic match experience with a decent transfer system!

yes but they dont really get behind that game or invest much in it I dont think, for example you never seem them advertise it like they do some of there other titles. All i am saying is that although this is by far the best footy manager game out there I think there is a massive opportunity for someone to beat this as there are so many things wrong with it. Also over the last few years the new features in the main have been more annoying than adding much to the game. All we want is a decent/realistic match experience with a decent transfer system!

FM isnt perfect, there is a huge amount of scope where the game can, and hopefully, will improve, but its lightyears ahead of anything out there. I think sometimes we forget just how difficult is it to get close to real football. Big changes coming to the ME in the next iterations of the game, hopefully 13 and not 14

I do agree about the morale changes became insanely hard for low rep managers and maked the moral system even more random its more realistic in some ways , however i disagree 11.3 ME was extremely random ,hated it , i don't like that FM 2012 is still using it .

Why implementing agens and new team talks? its called realism get over it .

The part about we only need decent ME and proper AI transfer , i do see it has a necessary thing but its no all we need , if it was no one would buy FM 2012 just because of that

your not giving feedback, your just ranting

No.

Maybe it looks like that way because english is not my native language.

Realism? IMO, it is impossible to make real game.

All of this NBA 2K12, PES, FIfa, they all failed in this mission and ruined the fun aspect that their games had before 5, 6 years.

Their games are perfection of human brain development, the level of graphic and motion, real sign of our "technology civilization", but - with all of this realism, they ruined the fun aspect.

It is just impossible to make game with real life realism, and its only more complicated to play with all the tryings, controls, etc.

I dont want arcade games, in example I dont want that basketball players fly 10 meters when preparing to dunk and all of that like it was in 90's.

Just, keep it simple.

Why CM 01/02 was, in opinion of many players, best manager ever?

Because it was fun, it was simple, but it wasnt arcade, it was challenging, and you had all options like you have it now, only in simpler manner. I could play one save game for forty years back then, it was that challenging.

So, I dont want to be like bitching or, as you said it, ranting, excuse me if it apears like that, I just want to state my thinkings about this.

It is unacceptable that every patch have different problems, like someone said - it is so random nowadays. And it ruins fun, and yes - all of us would rather play smooth game that is hard but not so real than some "near realism" game with so fouls but with the agents, upgraded team talks and so on. It is just unnecessary.

agree^^^ fifa vs the ai and nba 2k12 vs the ai on a decent difficulty setting feels basically like being cheated

all sports games have become tiresome grinds, in fifa u score the same r1 finesse shot every time and nba u spam shots off the dribble with durrant/james etc

when games were ore limited, they were more fun, these new engines and rubber band cheating by the ai = no fun

Some people just want to pick a team..click continue and win!!! Why the hell do these people bother playing the game. If all you want to do is win..just give yourself the best reputation...sorted!!

No, no, no!

It is not black and white.

Why all of you always said that we who complain about this morale thing want to press continue and win?

If I want more fun that doesnt mean I want to press continue and win it all.

I want challenging game too, but not unplayable game, the ME just isnt fun, it is struggling in every manner. You just cant make changes in only one department and expect that other thing stay the same.

Like someone said, it seems like SI messed up their own kid, I dont know how they can make this all better. But with very little effort, with different approach, this could be again best game in the world.

Hope SI dont fall in the same "realism trap" like FIFA or PES.

No, no, no!

It is not black and white.

Why all of you always said that we who complain about this morale thing want to press continue and win?

If I want more fun that doesnt mean I want to press continue and win it all.

I want challenging game too, but not unplayable game, the ME just isnt fun, it is struggling in every manner. You just cant make changes in only one department and expect that other thing stay the same.

Like someone said, it seems like SI messed up their own kid, I dont know how they can make this all better. But with very little effort, with different approach, this could be again best game in the world.

Hope SI dont fall in the same "realism trap" like FIFA or PES.

Funny guy XD

It is seems like it because of language.

Hey Flauta,

Have you stop for a minute and think that perhaps the problem is not in the game, but in the way you play the game?

I say this, because until patch 12.1 i play FM always the same way, with sucess. After the release of the patch i struggle to win a game against a weaker team. I have to adapt my style of play. tweak my tactics and change the way i "talk" to the players.

It took me a while, and i have to start a new game a least 10 times, but now i'm enjoying the game much more, and playing with much more detail that ever before.

For example, the tactics:

The ME asn't change since 11.3, apart from small tweaks, but the truth is, after the patch 12.1 all my player gone into "stupid mode". It's was so sad to see them on the pitch, and i'm talking about players like Gaitan, Badelj, Douglas Costa or Witsel.

The morale changes afect the game, and the way your players play with the tactics, that my sucessfull tactic that work very good in FM2011.3 and FM2012.04 start working very bad in the new patch.

Solution... new tactic... a fresh look at the game, and slowly things start going much better!

So this is my advice to you. Start from scratch! Test some tactics, a see what works better for your team!

Hey Flauta,

Have you stop for a minute and think that perhaps the problem is not in the game, but in the way you play the game?

I say this, because until patch 12.1 i play FM always the same way, with sucess. After the release of the patch i struggle to win a game against a weaker team. I have to adapt my style of play. tweak my tactics and change the way i "talk" to the players.

It took me a while, and i have to start a new game a least 10 times, but now i'm enjoying the game much more, and playing with much more detail that ever before.

For example, the tactics:

The ME asn't change since 11.3, apart from small tweaks, but the truth is, after the patch 12.1 all my player gone into "stupid mode". It's was so sad to see them on the pitch, and i'm talking about players like Gaitan, Badelj, Douglas Costa or Witsel.

The morale changes afect the game, and the way your players play with the tactics, that my sucessfull tactic that work very good in FM2011.3 and FM2012.04 start working very bad in the new patch.

Solution... new tactic... a fresh look at the game, and slowly things start going much better!

So this is my advice to you. Start from scratch! Test some tactics, a see what works better for your team!

Thank you for constructive feedback!

I started three times with Roma, in this last attempt, I finished third. And it is sucess. I was projected to battle for Euro cup.

But my players failed to score 5/7 penalties, my first scorer was Totti with 9 goals, and almost every match I won by own goals, goals from corners, etc, etc.

My conclusion---> I have good team, good tactics and game code recognize it so I finished third, but there is no recognition from Match Engine, and I even dont know how I finished third when I was playing so poorly.

And it is thing that ruins fun from me. ME is always the same.

I stoped to play when I played Ajax in qualification for Champions League, it was 1:1 at home and away goals, then we need to shoot penaltys.

It was 8:7 for me, with 14 players to shoot on every team.

So there is no continious fun in this game, it is too affected with this morale thing. On 12.04. it was too affected with general easyness of the game.

Again, I want to say what I want from this game.

-challenging game

-possibility to have beautiful game if everything clicks in right places

-possibility to have great defending team if everything clicks in right places

-possibility to have rubbish team if everything dont click in right way

-AI that transfers a lot

-general hardness that increases when you start to dominate (and not to become so easy once you take a major trophy)

-playable ME with no majors bugs

Nowadays, we dont have anything from this.

-game is not challenging judging to the negative threads on the general forum

-you cant make your own style of play, so much struggling and random things, like there is always same recipe, first season struggle, and then succes and it happens with every tactics and with every team, always the same pattern

-AI dont transfer

-once you dominate, it becomes boring

-ME is not playable in decent way

For example, CM 01/02 had it all.

Agents, team talks, 3D, all wonderfull new additions, but it should be secondary, unfortunately, it becomed primary thing while this fundamental things are on second place.

Thank you Keyszer for your help, I love this game too much to quit from it, and i will explore more options like you reccomend it to me, but even though I create a world class team, it wouldnt mean a lot because of all this reasons.

To be honest I think your way off the mark here.

Teamtalks etc... aren't having as much affect on players when you're a low rep manager. I mean, why would Messi be interested in listening to a "nobody" who has just come into football when he is a world superstar. When you have played a couple of seasons and got yourself a bit of a rep your team talks and morale are easier for you to control as you've proven yourself in the game.

This is realistic and equally challenging(frustrating) but thats why I play the game, for a challenge.

I don't think there is anything much wrong with the ME either because I have tried many tactics all seeing different results. You can have a much better team than somebody and use a rubbish tactic and lose. Likewise, you could have a very poor team and setup a tactical masterplan and win.

The bottom line is that tactics are playing much more of a part in this game and that is how it should be.

I've built myself I very effective tactic (after many attempts and sackings) for Liverpool and in first season finished 2nd and won both domestic cups. This to me is success and I LOVE IT :-)

I am a classic tactics manager and I start a game as a Sunday League Footballer because that's what I am. The game is meant to be realistic so as a mere Sunday League Footballer why should the first thing I do to be able to have a reasonable game is choose to start as an International Footballer which I have never been!! "Realism" out of the window with the very first button you click!!

I am a bit frustrated because I had a 4-4-2 and a 5-4-1 tactic that were working ok before the last patch. It had taken four seasons of tweaks to get to where I was happy. Suddenly after the patch I went from only losing 6 games to losing 5 of my next 6. Before that I was not strolling it I was grinding out results with changes in personell and mid game changes at the same time I was losing games due to the same so I was and am not expecting to win every game 4-0.

However since the patch the tactics are useless to the extent that it's awful and I have made tweaks that just don't work. I have some good players like take Angel Di Maria as an example. His direct free kick ratio on target is non existant yet he has good stats. He can't beat a man but again he has good stats. His crossing is non existant but there again wing play is non existant in FM12. Is it all down now to his morale when the team sit 5th in the table??

I have centre forwards on high closing down but they just stand there. Midfielders that don't track back. Defenders who run away rather than tackle. It wasn't perfect before the patch but playable. Maybe it's 4-4-2, it just seems impossible to get it to work. The one game I won was a 3-0 win against Chelsea, away... Since then I have lost at home to Norwich, Wolves and Bolton battered me. Before the patch I had only lost 2 at home and was grinding out results away.

I have read the "workarounds" of overloading the centre and playing narrow but I would like to play a 4-4-2 that is realistic, not a 4-2-2-2 that isn't!! Yes things are important IRL like morale and team talksw but not as important as they are in FM. IRL it's players, tactics and luck. Look at WBA v Chelsea. WBA have a go with a 4-4-2and get a result, it won't always happen but sometimes it does. Have a go as a weaker side in FM and chances are you won't get a shot on goal let alone a point. Blackburn v Liverpool. Blackburn's heads must be on the floor but they ground it out had some luck and got a result. Low morale in FM means a defeat.

I love the game, always have but don't have the time these days to continue to tweak tactics, work out team talks, speculate over every players morale and have 6 different tactics for each opponent. What happened to "let them worry about us rather than us worry about them?"

To be honest it with all the changes and patches is becoming a game that in reality is only worth getting hold of and playing until after the very last patch has come out because most of the work you do between September and March tends to be wasted.

And I am far from having a whinge because I am not winning, just frustrated because I think the best game ever is in danger of becoming a time consuming simulation rather than a game.

I agree with Sussex Hammer. 12.04 was far better for me.

I am a classic tactics manager ...

The chances are that your tactic was overperforming due to the three core 12.0.0 bugs:

1: The set piece bug, which resulted in user teams scoring 10-20 gimme set piece goals per season, which the AI couldn't come close to matching. This knocked onto...

2: The morale bug, which meant that if you won a few consecutive games, morale was too easy to maintain, resulting in fully pumped up teams for every match.

3: The Match Prep bug, which resulted in AI teams switching to a totally untrained tactic when trying to get back into a game.

Put all three bugs together and you'd have win after win, no mater how sophisticated or logical your tactic might be. It only needed good set piece deliveries and a solid defence and it would tear up the league.

I have centre forwards on high closing down but they just stand there. Midfielders that don't track back. Defenders who run away rather than tackle.

There are some issues in the ME relating to this. High strata players show no urgency when the opportunity is there to get behind the ball, especially with mid-high mentality tactics. You can workaround this to an extent by target marking players. Defenders can also fail to engage quickly enough in three areas. FBs drop too quickly when the threat is in their area of the pitch. The d-line drops too quickly when it is being run at yet overmans the runners. There is a lack of cover from the last man when it is obvious he is the last man and should move laterally to deal with the threat. However, this is the same for AI and user teams. If you are seeing any other form of non-engagement from the defence, then it will be a tactical issue of your own making.

As for reading the forum ideas on which formation shape you should use to beat the ME, ignore them. This ME is balanced enough for any formation to perform well if it is logical. You don't have to play narrow, play wingers, play inside forwards or any other combinations offered as ME beating in the forums. You just need a tactic that is designed around the strengths of your team. It helps if you have a fundamental understanding of real life football tactics, especially shape and movement. Put that together with an understanding of your squad strengths and weaknesses and you will achieve.

Likewise, forget about the morale whiners. It is perfectly possible to keep morale high even when you are embroiled in a relegation battle. You can **** morale up with bad team talks, which will certainly relegate you if you have a poor squad, but you can also keep morale high with good team talks. Everybody who complains about morale has failed to understand the context-driven nature of the module. It is not as simple as 'praise when you win, damn when you lose'. The opposition's reputation, the scoreline, the match performance, the players' personalities and recent form all drive the type of interaction that should be employed. Any manager worth his salt should be able to keep the morale at OK-good for nearly all his squad, no matter the recent sequence of results.

The chances are that your tactic was overperforming due to the three core 12.0.0 bugs:

1: The set piece bug, which resulted in user teams scoring 10-20 gimme set piece goals per season, which the AI couldn't come close to matching. This knocked onto...

2: The morale bug, which meant that if you won a few consecutive games, morale was too easy to maintain, resulting in fully pumped up teams for every match.

3: The Match Prep bug, which resulted in AI teams switching to a totally untrained tactic when trying to get back into a game.

Put all three bugs together and you'd have win after win, no mater how sophisticated or logical your tactic might be. It only needed good set piece deliveries and a solid defence and it would tear up the league.

There are some issues in the ME relating to this. High strata players show no urgency when the opportunity is there to get behind the ball, especially with mid-high mentality tactics. You can workaround this to an extent by target marking players. Defenders can also fail to engage quickly enough in three areas. FBs drop too quickly when the threat is in their area of the pitch. The d-line drops too quickly when it is being run at yet overmans the runners. There is a lack of cover from the last man when it is obvious he is the last man and should move laterally to deal with the threat. However, this is the same for AI and user teams. If you are seeing any other form of non-engagement from the defence, then it will be a tactical issue of your own making.

As for reading the forum ideas on which formation shape you should use to beat the ME, ignore them. This ME is balanced enough for any formation to perform well if it is logical. You don't have to play narrow, play wingers, play inside forwards or any other combinations offered as ME beating in the forums. You just need a tactic that is designed around the strengths of your team. It helps if you have a fundamental understanding of real life football tactics, especially shape and movement. Put that together with an understanding of your squad strengths and weaknesses and you will achieve.

Likewise, forget about the morale whiners. It is perfectly possible to keep morale high even when you are embroiled in a relegation battle. You can **** morale up with bad team talks, which will certainly relegate you if you have a poor squad, but you can also keep morale high with good team talks. Everybody who complains about morale has failed to understand the context-driven nature of the module. It is not as simple as 'praise when you win, damn when you lose'. The opposition's reputation, the scoreline, the match performance, the players' personalities and recent form all drive the type of interaction that should be employed. Any manager worth his salt should be able to keep the morale at OK-good for nearly all his squad, no matter the recent sequence of results.

Maybe you should start an official thread named "RUBBISH RESULTS AFTER FM12.1.1 PATCH? READ THIS!" and post that there, because there are undoubtedly many frustrated users out there who had their tactic ruined after the patch.

Maybe you should start an official thread named "RUBBISH RESULTS AFTER FM12.1.1 PATCH? READ THIS!" and post that there, because there are undoubtedly many frustrated users out there who had their tactic ruined after the patch.

I dont know what's the big fuss about this! Usually everytime SI launch a patch the current tactics lost their effectiveness and people need to tweak them or built another one.

The only difference is that, usually this occurr because of majors ME changes, and this year its because of minors ME changes and some tweaks in the "morale system".

I dont know what's the big fuss about this! Usually everytime SI launch a patch the current tactics lost their effectiveness and people need to tweak them or built another one.

The only difference is that, usually this occurr because of majors ME changes, and this year its because of minors ME changes and some tweaks in the "morale system".

Yes I don't get it either. This happens thrice each year, and I have had to start new long-term savegames four times per version for years. This is the first time I didn't have to.

The chances are that your tactic was overperforming due to the three core 12.0.0 bugs:

1: The set piece bug, which resulted in user teams scoring 10-20 gimme set piece goals per season, which the AI couldn't come close to matching. This knocked onto...

2: The morale bug, which meant that if you won a few consecutive games, morale was too easy to maintain, resulting in fully pumped up teams for every match.

3: The Match Prep bug, which resulted in AI teams switching to a totally untrained tactic when trying to get back into a game.

Put all three bugs together and you'd have win after win, no mater how sophisticated or logical your tactic might be. It only needed good set piece deliveries and a solid defence and it would tear up the league.

There are some issues in the ME relating to this. High strata players show no urgency when the opportunity is there to get behind the ball, especially with mid-high mentality tactics. You can workaround this to an extent by target marking players. Defenders can also fail to engage quickly enough in three areas. FBs drop too quickly when the threat is in their area of the pitch. The d-line drops too quickly when it is being run at yet overmans the runners. There is a lack of cover from the last man when it is obvious he is the last man and should move laterally to deal with the threat. However, this is the same for AI and user teams. If you are seeing any other form of non-engagement from the defence, then it will be a tactical issue of your own making.

As for reading the forum ideas on which formation shape you should use to beat the ME, ignore them. This ME is balanced enough for any formation to perform well if it is logical. You don't have to play narrow, play wingers, play inside forwards or any other combinations offered as ME beating in the forums. You just need a tactic that is designed around the strengths of your team. It helps if you have a fundamental understanding of real life football tactics, especially shape and movement. Put that together with an understanding of your squad strengths and weaknesses and you will achieve.

Likewise, forget about the morale whiners. It is perfectly possible to keep morale high even when you are embroiled in a relegation battle. You can **** morale up with bad team talks, which will certainly relegate you if you have a poor squad, but you can also keep morale high with good team talks. Everybody who complains about morale has failed to understand the context-driven nature of the module. It is not as simple as 'praise when you win, damn when you lose'. The opposition's reputation, the scoreline, the match performance, the players' personalities and recent form all drive the type of interaction that should be employed. Any manager worth his salt should be able to keep the morale at OK-good for nearly all his squad, no matter the recent sequence of results.

Why is it that when someone creates a pretty good tactic it is dismissed at times as "overperforming due to bugs"? yet when a tactic suffers it's down to maybe a "tactical issue of your own making."???!!! I had this some years ago when I uploaded a good tactic but was told that I was making use of deficiences in the ME, totally unbeknown to me I hasten to add!!! So chances could also be that a perfectly decent tactic that took several months to tweak has been rendered useless because of more bugs then??!!

For the record, I set up my set plays deliberately mixed and was not scoring large amounts due the the set piece bug and in fact looking at the records of my latest season only scored one from direct free kicks and a handful from corners but an average amount so no that was not the reason for winning games. Maybe the other two bugs helped matters but that only countered the deficiencies in the ME so that's all square and even I feel considering the ME is somewhat flawed in relation to player movement etc.

I do have a "fundamental understanding of real life football tactics, especially shape and movement" after managing in Saturday and Sunday Football for many years. In fact my Saturday side are top of the League this season and we play either a 4-5-1/4-3-3 or a 4-4-2 and I can honestly say the tactics IRL play totally differently than they do in FM. Indeed I don't "for a workaround" have to ask my centre forwards to mark their centre backs because they aren't closing down enough, and I don't have to ask my central midfielder not to hold on to the ball without moving until their player takes it off him!!

In fact having an understanding of real life football tactics may the reason why I do at times get frustrated with behaviours in the game and the reasons as to why gamnes are won and lost. My players are only park footballers but they don't need to be spoon fed every single detail and have a constant arm around the shoulder or kick up the backside to at least try and go out and perform. Maybe having an understanding of football is also why I play "classic" and have most settings on "mixed" because that it what 99% of players do, they do things mixed. Ok you may have one player who runs with a ball well but you wouldn't ask him to do it often as you wouldn't ask a player who can shoot from distance well to shoot from wherever he is on the pitch!! Hence why I can totally understand the decision or flair attributes in the profiles because those as well as as abilty make players stand out.

That is why I am frustrated because winning football matches 99% of the time is down to your players and at times a tactical set up and it is frustrating to see players ignoring what their instructions are in FM.

This game is way too hard. I'm still on the 12.0 version, and despite having all the best players in the world I can't win the Premiership without cheating. I lost 5-0 to Liverpool, despite the fact that not a single one of their players would even make my bench. My morale is 'superb' aswell. My tactics are 4-2-3-1, which are the same as Man City's rl life tactics, and my player's roles are all assigned according to their individual strengths. By rights I should be dominating the world ala Barcelona in rl.

Why is it that when someone creates a pretty good tactic it is dismissed at times as "overperforming due to bugs"? yet when a tactic suffers it's down to maybe a "tactical issue of your own making."???!!! I had this some years ago when I uploaded a good tactic but was told that I was making use of deficiences in the ME, totally unbeknown to me I hasten to add!!! So chances could also be that a perfectly decent tactic that took several months to tweak has been rendered useless because of more bugs then??!!

I am trying to help, not criticise. Please read my posts with that in mind.

There are many people on the forums who do not need to change tactics between patches and haven't needed to for years. Likewise, there are many that do need to change things. Generally, this is because the former are using football logical tactics and know how to keep the team motivated, whereas the later have constantly relied on ME breaking systems that work no matter how motivated the team is or how well they are playing. Naturally, these tactics fail when the holes they have been exploiting are fixed. Of course, if the former group didn't exist, then the critiques of FM being impossible to play until fully patched would hold water. However, as it does, then we can be sure the issue of suddenly failing tactics is pretty much always user related. So, let us try and tie down yours.

Firstly:

For the record, I set up my set plays deliberately mixed and was not scoring large amounts due the the set piece bug and in fact looking at the records of my latest season only scored one from direct free kicks and a handful from corners but an average amount so no that was not the reason for winning games. Maybe the other two bugs helped matters but that only countered the deficiencies in the ME so that's all square and even I feel considering the ME is somewhat flawed in relation to player movement etc.

That you had set pieces on mixed is irrelevant as corners were being scored at a massively high rate on default instructions, i.e. mixed delivery and the game default player instructions. Likewise, corners were not being converted at the 20-30 goal rates we have seen in previous FMs. Instead, users were scoring circa 15-20 goals from corners and indirect free kicks combined. The core issue was that they were doing this from far less free kicks and corners than the AI needed. Whereas the AI would need circa 20 deliveries to score one goal, the user needed 6 or 7.

Consequently, if users kept their defences tight they would have a really good chance of grabbing the first goal. As AI match prep was bugged and AI teams had no second tactic to go to, the opening goal was usually enough to guarantee a result. This then knocked onto the ease of keeping morale high / difficulty of raising low morale, which gave the user a massive advantage throughout the season. If you were scoring 15-20 from set pieces during the season and played relatively defensively, there is a strong likelihood that you were inadvertently taking advantage of these bugs. It did take 2-3 weeks to discover the issue, so there is no disgrace in not noticing the advantage you were getting. It is extremely subtle.

Secondly:

I do have a "fundamental understanding of real life football tactics, especially shape and movement" after managing in Saturday and Sunday Football for many years. In fact my Saturday side are top of the League this season and we play either a 4-5-1/4-3-3 or a 4-4-2 and I can honestly say the tactics IRL play totally differently than they do in FM. Indeed I don't "for a workaround" have to ask my centre forwards to mark their centre backs because they aren't closing down enough, and I don't have to ask my central midfielder not to hold on to the ball without moving until their player takes it off him!!

In fact having an understanding of real life football tactics may the reason why I do at times get frustrated with behaviours in the game and the reasons as to why gamnes are won and lost. My players are only park footballers but they don't need to be spoon fed every single detail and have a constant arm around the shoulder or kick up the backside to at least try and go out and perform. Maybe having an understanding of football is also why I play "classic" and have most settings on "mixed" because that it what 99% of players do, they do things mixed. Ok you may have one player who runs with a ball well but you wouldn't ask him to do it often as you wouldn't ask a player who can shoot from distance well to shoot from wherever he is on the pitch!! Hence why I can totally understand the decision or flair attributes in the profiles because those as well as as abilty make players stand out.

I really struggle with this argument. I played first grade tennis for many years, which is equivalent to Championship - L1 level football, and have little to no understanding of the intricacies of the game at top level. I simply do not have the techniques or weapons to have ever been a top player, so fashioned my own game around my own limited ability. It does not translate to international class tennis at all. The same can be said for managing or playing in a Sunday League football team. It is going to be full of people with limited abilities doing the best they can to maximise their talent. That is nothing like managing top flight football teams.

Top flight football is full of specialist players who are world class at certain things. Some managers build tactics around these skill sets, supporting the talented players with more workaday help, whereas others try to mould the talent into some form of tactical cohesion. Further, managers of less talented teams plan how to stop the world class talent from dominating games, which requires a totally different mindset. Whereas there is an argument that some top flight teams have played 'mixed' football, I'd suggest perhaps only 1970s Ajax and Holland, early 1970s and early 1980s Brazil, and contemporary Barcelona have successfully done so, because only they have had the technical talent to allow it at the top level. And even then, there is massive tactical sophistication involved. These managers don't just tell the players to go out and get on with it. If you assume that managing Sunday level football is the same as understanding the top flight game, then you are going to get frustrated.

Whereas most of us have played football at some kind of level, not many of us have read and studied football tactics in any real detail. Personally, I find it an endlessly fascinating subject. Books on football tactics and coaching can really help people understand how tactical systems operate in the real world and in FM. At the very least, they are our only theoretical window into the actualities of top flight football. You can then observe the theory in action by watching high level games and trying to follow the tactical ebbs and flows of matches. You can also experiment with ideas in FM. Playing low level football really doesn't help at all.

I'm not trying to be confrontational here, only to point out that any claim towards really knowing football tactics based on Sunday league experience has to be taken with a huge grain of salt and can actually harm one's appreciation of the tactical modules in FM, as they are trying to simulate something quite different. Add in some poor man and media management and then the game will quickly start to become extremely frustrating.

Your frustration with the ME bugs is quite understandable. However, I'd argue that there is a difference between it being a bug (needing to tell your high strata players to target mark to get them tracking back) and a tactical / motivational issue of your own making (having DCs losing possession through long hesitations, which could be tactical (players too far away from him, doesn't want to make risky pass and fatally hesitates) or motivational (is playing nervously and prone to mistakes)). I realise they are difficult to pick between, which is why I outlined the core defensive bugs in my earlier post. There is nothing you can do about these. The other stuff, however, you can influence through changing your tactical or motivational approach.

I have no moral problems. Love the new patch.