Losing bothers me a little, the manner of losses bothers me a lot...

I am playing a game as Nottingham Forest, in the first season, 14 league games in, 9 wins, 3 draws and 2 losses. In the League Cup I am through to the quarter finals after dumping out pretty much Chelsea's reserve side and Aston Villa. Now, to me that is a good record so far, and I am confident of reaching atleast the play-offs in the league, and the next round of the League Cup is against Wolves at home so I am confident there too.

But now, I've just suffered my second defeat of the season, 2-0 to West Ham at their ground. My first defeat of the season came at home against Birmingham City in the sixth game of the season, also 2-0. It's not the fact I lost which bothers me enough to post about it, but rather the manner in which I lost. And I have seen this happen on my other saves also, not just this one. Everton and Deportivo Cali (Colombia) are my other 2 main games and it happens in those too. Basically, I play a possession based game. My side will dominate everything, passes, possession, shots on target, shots off target, corners, etc. The opposing team will have say... 35-40% of possession, 2 shots, both on target, both goals. My side on the other hand, 60-65% possession, 25-35 shots, 10-15 on target, 0 or 1 goal.

I find this so frustrating. I understand that losing is inevitable, and in real life this scenario happens. But to have it happen in every single defeat I have ever suffered pretty much? And sometimes it can be even more extreme, ie. I am dominating a game versus a lesser side, at my ground. So I send my boys out second half still 0-0 with the idea, it's only a matter of time before the deadlock is broken. Then, inbetween the 80th and 86th minute, the opposition have their only 3 shots of the game, and of course score all. It had reached the point, in both of my losses as Nottingham Forest, I can tell when it is happening, because my side basically lay siege to the opponents goal for 60 minutes and get nothing. You can predict that a defeat is coming within the first 20 minutes of a game if you see this happening.

PS. I also find it unrealistic that my players hit the crossbar and/or post several times per game, every game.

Anyone any thoughts on this issue?

Possession is all well and good but it's really about what you do with it. I manage a frighteningly bad lower league team and, therefore, play a very defensive, possession-oriented game. We often control the ball 65% of the time, manage two shots and lose 3-1. It's the same with shooting: it's not necessarily numbers, it's shot quality. If you're blasting away from long-range, you may not score many even if most shots are on net. Finally, the teams that you're losing to may simply be throwing a more effective tactic at you, one that concedes possession in your end and allows shooting from distance. Then, they convert their chances with better quality finishing. Analyze the matches you've lost and you can probably see where your tactic is failing and your opponent is succeeding. Beyond that, it's hard to say without knowing more about your tactics.

TC, I'm right there with you. It's frustrating, but what can you do about it?

Possession is all well and good but it's really about what you do with it. I manage a frighteningly bad lower league team and, therefore, play a very defensive, possession-oriented game. We often control the ball 65% of the time, manage two shots and lose 3-1. It's the same with shooting: it's not necessarily numbers, it's shot quality. If you're blasting away from long-range, you may not score many even if most shots are on net. Finally, the teams that you're losing to may simply be throwing a more effective tactic at you, one that concedes possession in your end and allows shooting from distance. Then, they convert their chances with better quality finishing. Analyze the matches you've lost and you can probably see where your tactic is failing and your opponent is succeeding. Beyond that, it's hard to say without knowing more about your tactics.

I second this, also, if the other teams goals are from set pieces then a fluke win via a few set pieces happens alot irl as well...

I am playing a game as Nottingham Forest, in the first season, 14 league games in, 9 wins, 3 draws and 2 losses. In the League Cup I am through to the quarter finals after dumping out pretty much Chelsea's reserve side and Aston Villa. Now, to me that is a good record so far, and I am confident of reaching atleast the play-offs in the league, and the next round of the League Cup is against Wolves at home so I am confident there too.

But now, I've just suffered my second defeat of the season, 2-0 to West Ham at their ground. My first defeat of the season came at home against Birmingham City in the sixth game of the season, also 2-0. It's not the fact I lost which bothers me enough to post about it, but rather the manner in which I lost. And I have seen this happen on my other saves also, not just this one. Everton and Deportivo Cali (Colombia) are my other 2 main games and it happens in those too. Basically, I play a possession based game. My side will dominate everything, passes, possession, shots on target, shots off target, corners, etc. The opposing team will have say... 35-40% of possession, 2 shots, both on target, both goals. My side on the other hand, 60-65% possession, 25-35 shots, 10-15 on target, 0 or 1 goal.

I find this so frustrating. I understand that losing is inevitable, and in real life this scenario happens. But to have it happen in every single defeat I have ever suffered pretty much? And sometimes it can be even more extreme, ie. I am dominating a game versus a lesser side, at my ground. So I send my boys out second half still 0-0 with the idea, it's only a matter of time before the deadlock is broken. Then, inbetween the 80th and 86th minute, the opposition have their only 3 shots of the game, and of course score all. It had reached the point, in both of my losses as Nottingham Forest, I can tell when it is happening, because my side basically lay siege to the opponents goal for 60 minutes and get nothing. You can predict that a defeat is coming within the first 20 minutes of a game if you see this happening.

PS. I also find it unrealistic that my players hit the crossbar and/or post several times per game, every game.

Anyone any thoughts on this issue?

You've lost twice in 14 games and you're complaining?

Pretty much what's happening to Liverpool this season.

That's how the A.I. works, unfortunatelly. It uses these crazy scenarios in order to create surprise results or simply counter the player's tactics and it all goes overboard.

It's unbalanced, it has always been and SI can't fix it. What they are doing, however, is that they are creating a new match engine. Will this fix things? I'm really not very hopefull. The engine as a whole is really really bad and it will take very clever programming, good design decisions and A LOT of testing to get rid of the anomalies, which are plenty and don't stop only to "hitting the crossbar" or "3/3 shots" losses.

The whole tactics module needs a redesign, the match engine, the players' and managers' A.I., the training system, the assistant managers'/coaches A.I., the A.I. team building/transfer A.I. etc... These all need MAJOR changes and redesign but I doubt we will see any of these in the next 10 years. The game doesn't need these to sell (which comes down to players' expectations) so don't expect them any time soon.

Also, the news module... What a mess... There's too much clutter and not enough micromanagement to really pick what you want to follow. You pick Media of just one team and you get 10 entries from that 8 and 7 of them you don't want to read. There are no clever synopsis of news, media, no ability to filter which media you want to follow from a league and the central News page of every league... Does anybody EVER use it? There's no info on the league itselft there.

SI, why don't you give us the ability to mod this game?

That's how the A.I. works, unfortunatelly. It uses these crazy scenarios in order to create surprise results or simply counter the player's tactics and it all goes overboard.

It's unbalanced, it has always been and SI can't fix it. What they are doing, however, is that they are creating a new match engine. Will this fix things? I'm really not very hopefull. The engine as a whole is really really bad and it will take very clever programming, good design decisions and A LOT of testing to get rid of the anomalies, which are plenty and don't stop only to "hitting the crossbar" or "3/3 shots" losses.

The whole tactics module needs a redesign, the match engine, the players' and managers' A.I., the training system, the assistant managers'/coaches A.I., the A.I. team building/transfer A.I. etc... These all need MAJOR changes and redesign but I doubt we will see any of these in the next 10 years. The game doesn't need these to sell (which comes down to players' expectations) so don't expect them any time soon.

I think you're a bit harsh here. ME has a lot of potential, unfortunatly they deceided not to deal with it in last couple of years. agree that tactical system and AI would benefit from reworking.

I think you're a bit harsh here. ME has a lot of potential, unfortunatly they deceided not to deal with it in last couple of years. agree that tactical system and AI would benefit from reworking.

The engine has a lot of potential, that's the problem. It has potential. Currently is really bad.

The way the game decides to make you lose it's COMPLETELY ridiculous most of the times, especially when you are playing a mid table team. You can be 0-2 at HT, team talk all fired up, no tactics change by the A.I. and still lose if the game has decided so, using fluke goals and making you miss 5 to 6 CCC which are one on ones, with a good striker too.

That ties to deeper mechanics than simply the ME's ones, but you get no feedback from the game. The engine doesn't inform you that there's something wrong. You have possession, you have better passing %, triple shots on target, blocked shots, CCC and half chances, you see your strikers having these great one on ones, EVERYTHING shows that your are in control. But you are not. You lose because some fluke happens or because the A.I. has 2/2 shot-goal ratio. I can understand this happening once in a while, but most games???

It shows how little prograss the ME has done. The problem is with the design process, not the programming. You see strikers going to the flanks for no apparent reason. You see players going to the OTHER side of the pitch in order to dribble past an opponent instead of taking him head on, you see defenders LEAVE an attacking player who they were guarding because the FB has to come, you see players losing easy on ones, mediocre keepers blocking consecutive close range shots and so many other crazy things...

Every year we are here talking about the same problems. The SAME.

That actually tells the whole truth and shows that the problem is in the design, not the programming.

it is always set pieces in this game.

the main problem i have is long shooting is not accurate enough, it is rare i score from 20-30 yards. too rare.

when you have the likes of rooney, hernandez olic etc missing 1 on 1's by miles and seeing torres score? come on.

Well, I just got beat 7-0 by Linfield in Feb 2021. They had 8 shots on target. I'm Crusaders, took them over in Jan 2021.

Watch Barcelona. I doubt that they have played a single game under Guardiola in which they have not had the majority of the possession, and probably the majority of the chances.

They have the world's three best players, by the last Ballon D'Or vote, including the world's best attacker and the world's best creators.They have not gone unbeaten.

Look at Arsenal. They're converting now, but every single season they will dominate matches against lower opposition and still draw, or lose (cue articles about their lack of fighting spirit).Think of the Arsenal "Invincibles"team, who never lost in the league: instead they drew 11 bloody times. Including against Portsmouth (twice), Leicester City, Charlton, Bolton, Fulham, and Birmingham.

People who think it is unrealistic to dominate games and still lose don't seem to realise that this is what happens most of the time that big teams lose. The commentators will gloss over this and say that the lesser team "rode their luck at times, but put in a gutsy performance and deserved the win" but statistically (bar the No. 1 statistic: goals scored and conceded) this is rarely the case.

Man Utd and Chelsea, who often have central midfield issues, are the only ones who ever really let a plucky underdog dominate the game every now and then.

It looks slightly more exaggerated, because the poor defensive AI in FM creates allows slightly too many chances per game - and thus there tend to be slightly too many chances missed in these reversal games for it to seem realistic. But the principle is sound.

And also - who still believes that nonsesnse about the game "deciding you should lose"? These forums reveal enough people with crazy unbeaten records and scoring streaks that people should've realised how much horse crap such claims are.

Watch Barcelona. I doubt that they have played a single game under Guardiola in which they have not had the majority of the possession, and probably the majority of the chances.

They have the world's three best players, by the last Ballon D'Or vote, including the world's best attacker and the world's best creators.They have not gone unbeaten.

Are you serious????

They have not got unbeaten??? They have won 2/3 CL in the last 3 seasons, while winning consecutive championships and a double.

What on earth are you on about??!!

Of course they are unbeaten! They may lose one game here and there but that's it!

In FM you can have Barcelona's stats and yet lose/draw most of the games!!! That's crazy. And you can have them (I do for instance) with Malaga!

edit: oh, and those still unfixed bugs, like for example the striker coming short for the throw-in no matter what the instructions (when you are a WC manager). There are bugs that are in the series for years...

arsenals so called invicibles, one of those draws was a penalty via a dive so yea.

but no ammount of anything explains this

only 7 shots in the entire game zero on target? there was more actoin then that i had far more shots. is there any way to stop the corners/crosses being collected by keeper

and on the other end of the sectrum, this is a screenshot of AI european group satges

only 8 games, and england scored 41 and conceded 2.. not the strongest group in the world but seriously?

That's how the A.I. works, unfortunatelly. It uses these crazy scenarios in order to create surprise results or simply counter the player's tactics and it all goes overboard.

It's unbalanced, it has always been and SI can't fix it.

Do you have any hard evidence for these claims, particularly the "crazy scenarios to create surprise results"? I think many critics tend to lose sight of a simple fact: there are millions of FM players all over the planet playing tens of millions of matches every year. Even an absolutely perfect simulation will create a fair number of aberrant results -- in individual games, seasons and careers. It's inevitable (see Distribution, Poisson). Now, I'd be the first to agree that FM is not perfect. But, having played the FM series for many years, I'd have to say that, season in and season out, the match engine performs very well. Just not perfectly.

Now, those sleep-inducing press conferences are another matter entirely.

I actually enjoy this, as sometimes I fail to score when I have 20+ shots 10+ on target.. with 60% pos. 80% pass comp. and good clear chances amount

where my oppossiton, scores from 3 shots, all goals..

sometimes I do the opposite, remember played against Arsenal in EC, with me managing Santa Clara.. who are playing for the first time in history in EC..

enjoyed how I contained arsenal's attack, they had 75% poss., 30+ shots, most of them blocked, few off target, and decent number of them on target like 5 or 6..

I had 3 counter attacking chances, 2 of them converted to goals..

it's how do you play, how do get the most of your attacks, not anything else.

A major issue lies with, when a human player looses they dont treat the game as if its real life. If you lose its "Oh buggy match engine i dominated possesion and had 2.453 more CC's and still lost, must be a bug" - Instead of looking at it like that you need to consider "Hey, every saturday lunchtime a team goes out dominates and looses, it really is quite common" - Rather than accepting it happens, people pass it off as a buggy ME, when really if you look at it as if it were a 'real game' - it really isnt that absurd...

A major issue lies with, when a human player looses they dont treat the game as if its real life. If you lose its "Oh buggy match engine i dominated possesion and had 2.453 more CC's and still lost, must be a bug" - Instead of looking at it like that you need to consider "Hey, every saturday lunchtime a team goes out dominates and looses, it really is quite common" - Rather than accepting it happens, people pass it off as a buggy ME, when really if you look at it as if it were a 'real game' - it really isnt that absurd...

Then you have people claiming that the game is way too easy when they win all matches. But it seems those people have greatly decreased in numbers after FMRTE went paid.

If you dominate possession, as a result of your playing style, then surely every game you lose is going to be to a team that has less possession and fewer chances? By definition? (Similarly, every game you win is going to be to a team that has less possession and fewer chances.) I would say that if you play 10-15 games in which dominate possession and only lose a couple, you're doing pretty well.

Oh, and TSH: "Of course they are unbeaten! They may lose one game here and there but that's it!" Your second sentence refutes your first. Was that deliberate?

Pretty much what's happening to Liverpool this season.

no, liverpool are just bad

the manner of losing?

just did a friendly

1-0 down to a penalty

get 3-1 up

lose 3-5

to long range effort

a corner

and a free kick headed in... like a corner

The problem for me is the AI is far more effective at finishing in comparison to me.

For example my last match:

Toulouse: 11 shots, 2 on target, 0 CCC's, 6 long shots.

PSG: 24 shots, 6 on target, 3 CCC's, 8 long shots.

And yet the game ended 1-0 to them, I'm seeing this a fair bit, the AI snatching results with fluky goals and me seeing every shot going saved or going wide.

As frustrating as it can be (and trust me this game can really push my buttons), it has pushed me to be a better manager, as cheesy as that sounds.

It sucks to have 70% possession, 19 shots on target only to go down 1-0 in the 82nd minute in the semi final of the FA Cup. But its an amazing feeling to win the same game 2-1 with a goal in 117th minute.

I've had many matches where I spend the entire match trying to break down an opponent and to finally get that goal late in the match is a great feeling.

At the same time though there are those matches where you will dominate and not be able to score and when you finally score that goal, the opposition walks down the pitch and equalises.

I get those moments where I throw my hands up and call bs. Like the carling cup final last season. 70% possession, 20 odd shots on target, finally scored in the 118th minute only for a southampton player to dribble past 4 of my players and then hit one from 35 yards out. Why did I cry bs? the guy had dribbling of 10, long shots of 5 and his condition was at are 50%.

The game will always need improvement. Its a piece of software and thats just the nature of the beast.

Oh and arsenalfan7 its been the same for me forever.

it does happen in real life, but not as frequently as in fm

u can tell when the ai is going to score from nothing sometimes, u are 0-0 in the 89th minute and dominating, they get a corner and score or a free kick and score directly....fair enough 1 or 2 games but most losses i have to lower sides happen like this

some games it feels like the game decides your streak must be over because it feels like it

it's the manner that grates. IRL yes when the big teams lose normally they have had the majority of possession and shots. But when is the last time you saw Man U lose 1-0 having had Rooney and Hernandez miss 6 clean through, perfectly set, v the keeper between them? that's the equivalent of what happens in FM. And people say "it's your tactics", and they are probably right. But the thing is, when the 3D shows you creating what look like absolute golden chances, that should imply your tactics are right not wrong.

It's football. I also sometimes have games where the opposition absolutely dominates me but I get a cheeky goal and the opposition hits the post and has a gazillion ccc's and I somehow win the game 1-0. I won the Champions League with Forest against Real Madrid and even with one of their players sent off they utterly ravaged us but just couldn't find a goal. That particular game (if you don't take the sending off into account) reminded me of the FA Cup final in 2005, where United looked like they were playing 2 divisions above Arsenal, but Aresenal somehow held on and won on penalties.

It happens in real life and I'm glad it happens in FM, because it's realistic.

If you don't like it then you really shouldn't be playing a football management game because it's just football.

Oh and also just this year I lost a game where I dominated Leicester (one of Forest's main rivals) at the City Ground, but couldn't buy a goal despite hitting the post multiple times and having many CCCs. It wasn't the last game of the season but it was one of the last 10 matches and we lost that game. At the end of the season we finished 1 point from top, with a massively superior goal difference to Man United, so if we had just taken a point in that match against Leicester then we would have won the title (4th season in the premiership and after just winning the FA Cup it's now the only major trophy I have yet to win with Forest).

But I'm not going to cry about it, in fact it's made me even more determined to win the league next year. After the initial disappointment, real managers wouldn't keep crying about it, they would look at ways to improve their team to make sure it won't happen again.

it's the manner that grates. IRL yes when the big teams lose normally they have had the majority of possession and shots. But when is the last time you saw Man U lose 1-0 having had Rooney and Hernandez miss 6 clean through, perfectly set, v the keeper between them? that's the equivalent of what happens in FM. And people say "it's your tactics", and they are probably right. But the thing is, when the 3D shows you creating what look like absolute golden chances, that should imply your tactics are right not wrong.

Yes and if you tweak the tactic enough, that is always what you will end up with when thinking "the more chances the better". That's why there are threads like this at all. There would have been even more threads complaining if SI didn't nerf CCC's (esp. 1-on-1 w/gk). The scores would have been 17-11 not 2-1. One-on-ones are only good chances when the player approaches the goal from certain angles. Attacking mentality is so superior when it comes to possession and chance creation that it makes sense to max it out for most players, but in front of goal it is vastly inferior compared to normal mentalities because the strikers will lose their cool so to speak.

The problem is that people using TC and shouts see this as well; overload = complete domination, excellent aggression and many chances. And in most instances they are happy with the results because this will be enough to score lots of goals. However, in some games, especially those where they are unlucky the first half-an-hour, the strikers become less composed over time and in the end they wouldn't hit a barn from inside of it. Then they complain about unrealism, especially as the defensive-minded opposition scores easily on their one or two chances. It has all to do with the tempo, width and mentality settings. Defensive strikers are more efficient, that's all there is to it.

This is also why if you are the underdog and go out attacking, getting an early goal will have the AI change to a more attacking mentality and philosophy, but the defenders will remain quite defensive still. It is those games I win with 4-5 goals easily, because their defenders are still too passive while the midfield and attack are too desperate.

It is much more difficult to win against defensive teams because they lie deep with many men and close up shop while their attackers are very efficient because their mentalities are normal.

... and this is precisely what the OP and other posters on here and on countless other threads describe, but lack of not -understanding- but a matter-of-fact approach to the game makes you (them) perceive it as a programming fault and not a managerial error. Focus on what works and what works not, not what should or shouldn't.

The engine has a lot of potential, that's the problem. It has potential. Currently is really bad.

The way the game decides to make you lose it's COMPLETELY ridiculous most of the times, especially when you are playing a mid table team. You can be 0-2 at HT, team talk all fired up, no tactics change by the A.I. and still lose if the game has decided so, using fluke goals and making you miss 5 to 6 CCC which are one on ones, with a good striker too.

That ties to deeper mechanics than simply the ME's ones, but you get no feedback from the game. The engine doesn't inform you that there's something wrong. You have possession, you have better passing %, triple shots on target, blocked shots, CCC and half chances, you see your strikers having these great one on ones, EVERYTHING shows that your are in control. But you are not. You lose because some fluke happens or because the A.I. has 2/2 shot-goal ratio. I can understand this happening once in a while, but most games???

It shows how little prograss the ME has done. The problem is with the design process, not the programming. You see strikers going to the flanks for no apparent reason. You see players going to the OTHER side of the pitch in order to dribble past an opponent instead of taking him head on, you see defenders LEAVE an attacking player who they were guarding because the FB has to come, you see players losing easy on ones, mediocre keepers blocking consecutive close range shots and so many other crazy things...

Every year we are here talking about the same problems. The SAME.

That actually tells the whole truth and shows that the problem is in the design, not the programming.

full support from me :-) but i'm hopeless either..

full support from me :-) but i'm hopeless either..

lol we all have days when we are hopeless