Why Was The Thread Closed?

Under 13 Year Olds Can No Longer Play Football Manager?

Hi

This thread is intended mainly for information purposes on a major issue that I feel SI and Sega have created by launching FM12 via Steam only.

I won't bore you with the issues that many customers have had with the Steam decision as they have been debated long and hard ever since the decision was made but there has been one major area that has been overlooked by many and that is the age restriction on Steam.

This has been touched on in the Forum but hasn't really drawn alot of interest but it is a major issue that I feel has been completely overlooked by SI and Sega.

To register for Steam you must agree to the following:

I agree AND am 13 years of age or older (as per https://store.steampowered.com/join/)

So due to the job I do it piqued my interest, what if you are under 13 years old? There are probably a fair few under 13 year olds that play the game and probably many that will get if for Christmas. As per the Steam terms and conditions no-one else can create an account for you or allow their account to be used by anyone other than themselves (so therefore a parent cannot create an account legally and let their under 13 year old use it to activate and play the game as per):

When you complete Steam's registration process, you create a Steam account ("Account"). Your Account may also include billing information you provide to us for the purchase of Subscriptions. You are solely responsible for all activity on your Account and for the security of your computer system. You may not reveal, share or otherwise allow others to use your password or Account. You agree that you are personally responsible for the use of your password and Account and for all of the communication and activity on Steam that results from use of your login name and password. You may not sell or charge others for the right to use your Account, or otherwise transfer your Account.

Now I know people will say well rules are meant to be broken and there are many under 13 year olds that use Steam illegally anyway so what is a few more. The issue is that Steam has to adhere to the under 13 year old ruling due to very strict American laws and failure to adhere to them can mean extremely strict penalties and non-compliance is not tolerated.

Therefore if Steam (Valve) were to know that their terms had been breached purposefully by someone under 13 years old or via another user allowing illegal access to their account and therefore breaching the terms and conditions they agreed to then the penalties can be severe on the user, i.e. account completely cancelled and all games that are linked to it (also in their terms and conditions).

Would they ever find out? Possibly not but this is another angle that interests me as compliance to the American laws is quite complex and just asking someone their age (just like if you purchase alcohol in a shop) potentially isn't enough but that is a story for another day (Valve terms and conditions also state that if a parent finds out that a under 13 year old has accessed their system then they can request that all the information obtained on that account is wiped (and I would asume that account closed)).

The angle with SI and Sega that really interested me was why haven't they made it clear on the game, in commercials, etc that no under 13 year old can legally access their game anymore due to the Steam move? After all there are laws regarding advertisements and mis-leading the consumer.

Due to this I thought I would email SI and find out, Neil Brock passed me onto a Sega contact who effectively wrote back and said:

'....This however, is not of course preventing parents from creating an account on their child's behalf.....'

Hmmmmmm actually the terms and conditions of Steam (Valve) do stop exactly the above happening and when I emailed back pointing this out and making him aware of this I received no reply.

I waited a few weeks and sent another email stating that I would have appreciated a reply to my email pointing out their mistake and asking for official clarification on how a under 13 year old can legally play FM12 but no reply again.

My summary is therefore quite simple:

1. No one under 13 years old can legally create a Steam account.

2. Therefore no-one under 13 years old can play FM12 or any further release in the series if it is Steam only.

As SI/Sega have not not made the consumer aware of this, have not advertised this fact or warned of it, and have seemingly decided just to not reply to me now as I'm asking questions they can't or won't answer I decided to let my contacts at Trading Standards take a look.

They conducted an initial review based on the information provided by me and their own investigation into the matter and confirmed that it warranted further investigation and have therefore passed it onto the Trading Standards local office that are in the same area as the offices registered by SI/Sega.

The reason for this long post? Well first off to make people aware of this issue, may not be that major to some but appears to be a 'Ratner moment' by SI/Sega.

How would someone who buys a present for their under 13 year old feel if they brought the game with no warning, then had to either get a refund on the game (consumer law would allow a refund but not via the shop you brought it from it would have to be via the games manufacturer) or register and play the game illegally via purposefully breaching the Steam terms and conditions?

I would appreciate (if they allow the Thread to remain open) intelligent comments by anyone who has an opinion on the above.

Thanks

EDIT: The above thread was closed by a moderator because 1 person came up with a 'solution' that is actually incorrect so it was decided that this 'must' be the solution to the above and therefore best close the thread.

The issue isn't to do with Steam as my above thread makes clear, it is to do with SI/Sega launching a game that based on the terms and conditions of Steam (to my knowledge) forbides anyone under 13 being able to play. This therefore means SI/Sega have a legal liability to inform their customers under consumer law of this restriction before they purchase the game. That was the debate and my thread was put as intelligently and concise as I could.

In answer to the sarcastic comments regarding my username, this username had asked to be deleted and I was informed had been deleted therefore a new username was created based on the fact that now Trading Standards had confirmed they were willing to investigate further and due to Steam, SI, and Sega refusing to comment further (why be silent if they are correct?) I felt the community should be aware of this potential issue. The above thread is relevant to the Forum and it would be highly unlikely that Trading Standards would conduct an initial investigation of my observations and then confirm that a full investigation was warranted if there was 'no issue' at all.

Anyway if a 'moderator' wishes to close this thread and delete my username you are welcome to, but I'm afraid trying to bury the truth doesn't change it. Truth is truth.

I like your name

Isn't it a case of parental consent? If a parent buys a 15-rated film it isn't illegal for their 13 year-old to watch it in their own home; it's up to the parent. Likewise, if a parent wants to serve wine to their 14 year-old kid in a restaurant, it is legal to do so (with a meal) or to do so in the home. I don't see Steam as being any different, providing the parent is responsible enough to ensure their kid isn't downloading mega-violent or porn games.

really????

Christ. I found it boring the first time.

Im pretty damm sure Steam and Sega have thought of any issues they would come across with trading standards, i also doubt any of them will really waste their time looking into a non issue, not unless they have as little legal knowledge as the original OP seems to have, if he was so sure he would never have wasted his time emailing SEGA or Steam with this tripe. Again its Steam scaremongering, nothing more.

Christ. I found it boring the first time.

Then don't read it a 2nd time and don't post!

Isn't it a case of parental consent? If a parent buys a 15-rated film it isn't illegal for their 13 year-old to watch it in their own home; it's up to the parent. Likewise, if a parent wants to serve wine to their 14 year-old kid in a restaurant, it is legal to do so (with a meal) or to do so in the home. I don't see Steam as being any different, providing the parent is responsible enough to ensure their kid isn't downloading mega-violent or porn games.

This is where I would like discussion because no I don't think this is correct.

When you create an accout with Steam it is under their terms and conditions, period. If those terms and conditions state you cannot let anyone else use your account then you can't without breaking the terms and conditions of that account.

With a film you are purchasing the film yourself and there is no 'account' set up. There is guidance as to the suitability of the film yes just like on the case on FM12 there is a Pegi 3+, this is guidance as to the suitability of the game, nothing more.

Therefore there is a definitive difference, because to play FM12 you must always use Steam and therefore the terms and conditions of that account always apply.

Im pretty damm sure Steam and Sega have thought of any issues they would come across with trading standards, i also doubt any of them will really waste their time looking into a non issue, not unless they have as little legal knowledge as the original OP seems to have, if he was so sure he would never have wasted his time emailing SEGA or Steam with this tripe. Again its Steam scaremongering, nothing more.

To raise the issue to Trading Standards you have to initially prove that you have brought the issue to the attention of the company involved.

You also have to give the companies involved the opportunity to reply.

I did that.

If you then feel that the issue hasn't been dealt with or don't agree with the response then you have the right to Trading Standards of a potential breach of consumer law.

Scaremongering is when you have no basis for your opinions and cannot back them up with facts.

I have made it clear where my facts come from and have asked for intelligent comments, if peple don't agree then fine, prove my point is false.

If they do agree or wish to debate the point then fine that would be interesting too.

How many times do you have to be banned from here before you give it up? How long has Steam been around? How many instances have their been of trading standards taking any action against Steam or ANY game company because of this policy? Your wasting your time and everyone elses time you bother with this nonsense.

How many times do you have to be banned from here before you give it up? How long has Steam been around? How many instances have their been of trading standards taking any action against Steam or ANY game company because of this policy? Your wasting your time and everyone elses time you bother with this nonsense.

I've never been banned.

How many times do you have to be banned from here before you give it up? How long has Steam been around? How many instances have their been of trading standards taking any action against Steam or ANY game company because of this policy? Your wasting your time and everyone elses time you bother with this nonsense.

Then please reframe yourself from posting. This is obviously a topic your not interested in, so pelase dont waste your time or anyones elses by posting silly comments. We understand your frustration on the matter, and you have valid opinions, but if you choose not to put forward these in a repsectable and mature manner, then please go somewhere more to your liking.

Thanks.

This is all a bit to much of 'in theory' for me. And I'm a lawyer.

As long as the kids manage to open an account on Steam and play the game, there is no issue afaic

A final post as it appears some people when asked to prove that my point is incorrect and undertake intelligent debate can't seem to understan that.

This was the post that closed the initial thread:

I doubt you read the Agreement, to be honest. It doesn't mention age anywhere within the agreement.

It does have a link to "Valve Privacy Policy"

Children Under The Age of 13

Valve will not knowingly collect personally identifiable information from any person age 12 and under. Valve encourages parents to instruct their children to never give out personal information when online. Parents who are concerned about the transfer of personal information from their children may contact us at privacy at valvesoftware.com to obtain a record of any information held by Valve and have it removed at their request. http://www.valvesoftware.com/privacy.html

In here they state they won't collect information from anyone under 13. Which seems to me to be saying, they will collect data, but we can't create an account for you if you're Under 13, because it's against our policy to collect data from Under 13 year olds.

It says in the Privacy policy that Parents should instruct their children to never give out personal information. Which is great advice.

Legally, a parent or guardian has to sign any agreement for their dependents, regardless.

It's pretty clear that Steam allow a parent or guardian to setup an account for their children. If you have a problem take it up with Steam.

The reason that this new thread was opened was that a moderator had closed the original as they felt the above had answered the question.

However the above quote is from the privacy agreement, not the terms and conditions of the sign up agreement.

The sign up agreement is the legal contract and therefore cannot be superseded by a privacy policy which is just a company explaining their procedures.

I'm sorry that some people on the Forum can't debate intelligently a point that I feel has merit, it would be nice if they just didn't read it or didn't comment if they can't add anything to the debate.

I'll keep you updated with any developments!

Your wrong im very interested, nothing is more annoying than Steam scaremongering by people who think they have a point because they do not like using the software, this is nothing more than that.

Your wrong im very interested, nothing is more annoying than Steam scaremongering by people who think they have a point because they do not like using the software, this is nothing more than that.

I have had Steam for many a year, use it daily and love it. But i side with the group of people would want SI to change the way it forces people to use Steam to play the game. This shouldn't happen and the customers (like they have voiced) should have either/or options. The above (from what it seems) is a legal obligation to the user that NO under 13's are permitted to use the software from Steam. They wouldn't put it up for kicks would they??

Yes we all know many people use Steam, some are under 13, but this isn't the case.

Why would steam have a whole section of their terms and conditions around not collecting data from under 13's if they did not expect under 13s to be using steam? Seriously?

Personally having read the whole terms and conditions again, the whole purpose of that tick box saying 13 or over is so they can check whoever's details they have on the account is over 13, therefore the account details can be stored, and that the person making the account is old enough to understand the T&C's

Infact this paragraph states:

Children Under The Age of 13

Valve will not knowingly collect personally identifiable information from any person age 12 and under. Valve encourages parents to instruct their children to never give out personal information when online. Parents who are concerned about the transfer of personal information from their children may contact us at privacy@valvesoftware.com to obtain a record of any information held by Valve and have it removed at their request.

In their privacy policy. This means they KNOW that steam will be used by children under 13. Its just like when you sign up to a forum, confirming you are old enough to understand the T&C's etc.

The reason for the thread being closed also was I belive the fact the correct place to bring up issues with the steam EULA is with Steam and not here, as SI DO NOT control the Steam terms and conditions.