Under 13 Year Olds Can No Longer Play Football Manager?

Hi

This thread is intended mainly for information purposes on a major issue that I feel SI and Sega have created by launching FM12 via Steam only.

I won't bore you with the issues that many customers have had with the Steam decision as they have been debated long and hard ever since the decision was made but there has been one major area that has been overlooked by many and that is the age restriction on Steam.

This has been touched on in the Forum but hasn't really drawn alot of interest but it is a major issue that I feel has been completely overlooked by SI and Sega.

To register for Steam you must agree to the following:

I agree AND am 13 years of age or older (as per https://store.steampowered.com/join/)

So due to the job I do it piqued my interest, what if you are under 13 years old? There are probably a fair few under 13 year olds that play the game and probably many that will get if for Christmas. As per the Steam terms and conditions no-one else can create an account for you or allow their account to be used by anyone other than themselves (so therefore a parent cannot create an account legally and let their under 13 year old use it to activate and play the game as per):

When you complete Steam's registration process, you create a Steam account ("Account"). Your Account may also include billing information you provide to us for the purchase of Subscriptions. You are solely responsible for all activity on your Account and for the security of your computer system. You may not reveal, share or otherwise allow others to use your password or Account. You agree that you are personally responsible for the use of your password and Account and for all of the communication and activity on Steam that results from use of your login name and password. You may not sell or charge others for the right to use your Account, or otherwise transfer your Account.

Now I know people will say well rules are meant to be broken and there are many under 13 year olds that use Steam illegally anyway so what is a few more. The issue is that Steam has to adhere to the under 13 year old ruling due to very strict American laws and failure to adhere to them can mean extremely strict penalties and non-compliance is not tolerated.

Therefore if Steam (Valve) were to know that their terms had been breached purposefully by someone under 13 years old or via another user allowing illegal access to their account and therefore breaching the terms and conditions they agreed to then the penalties can be severe on the user, i.e. account completely cancelled and all games that are linked to it (also in their terms and conditions).

Would they ever find out? Possibly not but this is another angle that interests me as compliance to the American laws is quite complex and just asking someone their age (just like if you purchase alcohol in a shop) potentially isn't enough but that is a story for another day (Valve terms and conditions also state that if a parent finds out that a under 13 year old has accessed their system then they can request that all the information obtained on that account is wiped (and I would asume that account closed)).

The angle with SI and Sega that really interested me was why haven't they made it clear on the game, in commercials, etc that no under 13 year old can legally access their game anymore due to the Steam move? After all there are laws regarding advertisements and mis-leading the consumer.

Due to this I thought I would email SI and find out, Neil Brock passed me onto a Sega contact who effectively wrote back and said:

'....This however, is not of course preventing parents from creating an account on their child's behalf.....'

Hmmmmmm actually the terms and conditions of Steam (Valve) do stop exactly the above happening and when I emailed back pointing this out and making him aware of this I received no reply.

I waited a few weeks and sent another email stating that I would have appreciated a reply to my email pointing out their mistake and asking for official clarification on how a under 13 year old can legally play FM12 but no reply again.

My summary is therefore quite simple:

1. No one under 13 years old can legally create a Steam account.

2. Therefore no-one under 13 years old can play FM12 or any further release in the series if it is Steam only.

As SI/Sega have not not made the consumer aware of this, have not advertised this fact or warned of it, and have seemingly decided just to not reply to me now as I'm asking questions they can't or won't answer I decided to let my contacts at Trading Standards take a look.

They conducted an initial review based on the information provided by me and their own investigation into the matter and confirmed that it warranted further investigation and have therefore passed it onto the Trading Standards local office that are in the same area as the offices registered by SI/Sega.

The reason for this long post? Well first off to make people aware of this issue, may not be that major to some but appears to be a 'Ratner moment' by SI/Sega.

How would someone who buys a present for their under 13 year old feel if they brought the game with no warning, then had to either get a refund on the game (consumer law would allow a refund but not via the shop you brought it from it would have to be via the games manufacturer) or register and play the game illegally via purposefully breaching the Steam terms and conditions?

I would appreciate (if they allow the Thread to remain open) intelligent comments by anyone who has an opinion on the above.

Thanks

Then create the steam account "illegally" pretending to be 13+. Jesus.

God knows how many times I claimed to be over 18 in some disclaimers on the internet before I actually turned 18. Its just there for legal reasons, not 'cause the really care about under 13yo using Steam.

Not sure if you contacted Steam (Valve) re the age barrier and the parental control aspect. If a minor has their parents creating an account for them does that count in the eyes of the EULA.

I did find this though:

As the Account holder, you are responsible for all charges incurred, including applicable taxes, and all purchases made by you or anyone that uses your Account, including your family or friends. Information on how to cancel your Account or a particular Subscription can be found at http://www.steampowered.com/.

That implies that others can use the account?

So, does not that seem to contradict the 13 year old rule? You may have other information but it would be restrictive if, it was as you say, there was a strict adherence to that rule.

Steam will not ban an account that a parent sets up for their child under 13, not unless the account is hacking games or causing a problem on their system.

We've been over this already.

Interesting first thread considering you've only registered today.

This is a non-issue, iirc there is a minimum age for Xbox live & PSN, parents or guardians can create an account on behalf of & for the use by their dependants.

Not sure if you contacted Steam (Valve) re the age barrier and the parental control aspect. If a minor has their parents creating an account for them does that count in the eyes of the EULA.

I did find this though:

As the Account holder, you are responsible for all charges incurred, including applicable taxes, and all purchases made by you or anyone that uses your Account, including your family or friends. Information on how to cancel your Account or a particular Subscription can be found at http://www.steampowered.com/.

That implies that others can use the account?

So, does not that seem to condradict the 13 year old rule? You may have other information but it would be restrictive if, it was as you say there was strict adherence to that rule.

This is Steam/Valve covering themselves legally if someone was to use their account (illegally I presume based on the user agreement) but then used the account to purchase goods that you would then become liable for (as you shouldn't have given them access in the first place).

As this is in the credit card section it is solely (based on my knowledge) to protect Steam/Valve from financial loss

Yes I did contact Steam and they refused to reply.

Interesting first thread considering you've only registered today.

This is a non-issue, iirc there is a minimum age for Xbox live & PSN, parents or guardians can create an account on behalf of & for the use by their dependants.

Steam is not Xbox or PSP(?) and each individual company has different terms and conditions. It is those terms and conditions that you agree to and that become legally binding.

Can i ask how Steam would find out that the user was under 13 year of age?

This really is nothing more than scaremongering against Steam.

Can i ask how Steam would find out that the user was under 13 year of age?

This really is nothing more than scaremongering against Steam.

It is very difficult for Steam to find out the correct age of an applicant for an account, as per the thread the legality of Steam and the measures they have in place is another debate for another time.

Scaremongering? I have provided proof of my facts, cold and hard.

I have not menioned anything in the post other than my findings so I do not constitute that as scaremongering.

It is an issue that is simply overlooked and everyone, companies and individuals alike, just look the other way while it happens. However that doesn't make it right and the companies especially have a legal right to inform the consumer of any restrictions that their product will cause.

It is an observation, one I am interested in.

Parents are the legal guardian, hence they can legally setup Steam to run for their dependents. All it means is the child themselves can't create the account.

Parents are the legal guardian, hence they can legally setup Steam to run for their dependents. All it means is the child themselves can't create the account.

Not based on the terms and conditions of Steam they cannot.

If you can please post where the terms and conditions specifically allow this then that would add to the debate.

Thanks

It is very difficult for Steam to find out the correct age of an applicant for an account, as per the thread the legality of Steam and the measures they have in place is another debate for another time.

Scaremongering? I have provided proof of my facts, cold and hard.

I have not menioned anything in the post other than my findings so I do not constitute that as scaremongering.

It is an issue that is simply overlooked and everyone, companies and individuals alike, just look the other way while it happens. However that doesn't make it right and the companies especially have a legal right to inform the consumer of any restrictions that their product will cause.

It is an observation, one I am interested in.

It is scaremongering, you dont really know know the full legalities of it, you've read part of their terms and conditions and have made up the rest to suit your anti-steam stance. Parents as legal guardians can create and buy stuff through Steam for their child as long as they accept responsibility for their actions and for anything that may happen whilst they play games, so any hacking done by their child would be their responsibility and if the account was banned it would be up to the parent to deal with the situation.

It would be interesting to know your former user name on here although i think i can guess.

I think it's an interesting point. I'm sure everyone it concerns would just set up an account anyway as has been said but the question "Is it legal?" is a valid one and if not should children and/or their parents be forced into making a decision like this to allow their child to play a game

I doubt you read the Agreement, to be honest. It doesn't mention age anywhere within the agreement.

It does have a link to "Valve Privacy Policy"

Children Under The Age of 13

Valve will not knowingly collect personally identifiable information from any person age 12 and under. Valve encourages parents to instruct their children to never give out personal information when online. Parents who are concerned about the transfer of personal information from their children may contact us at privacy at valvesoftware.com to obtain a record of any information held by Valve and have it removed at their request.

http://www.valvesoftware.com/privacy.html

In here they state they won't collect information from anyone under 13. Which seems to me to be saying, they will collect data, but we can't create an account for you if you're Under 13, because it's against our policy to collect data from Under 13 year olds.

It says in the Privacy policy that Parents should instruct their children to never give out personal information. Which is great advice.

Legally, a parent or guardian has to sign any agreement for their dependents, regardless.

It's pretty clear that Steam allow a parent or guardian to setup an account for their children. If you have a problem take it up with Steam.

Glad we finally got to the crux of the matter:) if anybody has any concerns or queries over Steam terms and conditions, incredible though it may seem, it's a matter for the Steam forums/Help pages.