sampglov1987 Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 What with quad-core 1.3GHz processors and 1GB of ram in the most recent tablet iteration, (by next xmas, probably even better specs) surely we are getting closer and closer to having a fully fledged version of FM on a tablet? I, and I am sure most others would gladly pay £20 for a full version, and maybe also have the current FMH as well as a budget option?. It would be awesome to have some sort of iCloud (or a similar feature in windows) integration between computer and iPad. That would be awesome. Back to my main question? Do you think we are getting closer to this happening? The specs are definitely getting their. It would be awesome :-D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Marc Vaughan Posted December 3, 2011 SI Staff Share Posted December 3, 2011 The short answer is NO, definitely not in the short term (ie. next few years). To explain further ... First thing to bear in mind is that tablet/phone makers are being very clever with promoting processors as being 'quad core' and suchlike, it sounds like they're as powerful as their desktop equivalents - but you might notice there are never any performance specifacations put alongside them ... quad core just means 4 core processors, if each one has the power of a ZX Spectrum then it really isn't a comparison to a modern computer processor (they aren't 'that' bad but they aren't at all comparative to a modern PC). Also bear in mind that phones/tablets don't have virtual memory and suchlike in the way that PC's do, something which is critical for large complex programs such as FM. Finally one other thing to think about - the FM UI would not in any way suit touch screen input because of its complexity and small buttons etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sampglov1987 Posted December 3, 2011 Author Share Posted December 3, 2011 Thanks for the reply Marc, it makes it a lot clearer why it can't happen YET :-). Also, any news on when we might hear about some features of FHM 12 for iOS? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceirdiff Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Double post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceirdiff Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Bah - you keep mentioning that Marc! Lets make some facts available here here. :-) My laptop - HP Mini 2133, a very nice little laptop especially for development. It'll run the majority of small Indie games with a low dev time (read pyweek/ld48 entries). Important specs: 1280x768, 1.2gHz processor, 1gb ram (£180 despite what some reviewers say). I've never had an issue with speed on it except when I tried eclipse, but to be fair my quad core Phenom struggles with that xD) My phone, Samsung Galaxy SII (soon obsolete in S. Korea). Dual core 1.2gHz processor and 1gb ram, also 800x480 Res so less pixels to push around compared to iPhone, HTC Sensation and the SII HD (which will have an insane resolution several times better than the iphone). So, my phone is two times faster than my laptop for arithmetic logic and the like, for RAM there is an equal amount. Now, it should be noted that for the desktop FM11, 1.4gHz is required for XP, and 2gb for vista - for this reason I infer that the OS uses a significant amount of CPU power (600mHz+ on vista). Now obviously these are bloated, advanced, multitasking OSs with several daemons running at once. In comparison, Linux uses up a lot less CPU power than windows (the HP Mini 2133 with SuSE has a 200mHz slower processor than the one running windows, which means that 1.2gHz should be sufficient for such a game. Now, the Android system, based on Linux so should have similarly low CPU specs, will be further optimised whcih means that its processor should be more than sufficient. Coupled with there being two processors inside it, the overall specs should be good enough for a fairly slow game of FM11 (obviously the specs are right on the low end of the limit, but...) The HTC Amaze is planned to be shipped with 4 processors inside it, all similarly specced to the Galaxy SIIs, if not more powerful (were they looking at 1.3/1.4/1.6 iirc). Remember - these are phones - tablets are bigger so can sport more powerful specs. ARM are developing CPUs that are powerful enough for computers (netbooks especially are using them). With the exponential growth in power it is only a matter of time before these things are as powerful as a computer. LG or Motorola, I forget, made a phone that plugs into your screen to work as a computer. The $25 Raspberry Pi runs Ubuntu. I wouldn't just brush such ideas off, Marc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Marc Vaughan Posted December 4, 2011 SI Staff Share Posted December 4, 2011 I'm afraid thats an incredibly flawed analysis of things ... I 'get' what you're trying to indicate but I'm afraid its too simplistic an analysis to be relevant. For example: One of the big 'hits' for speed with the FM match engine for instance is when things can't be held within a processor cache - the difference in size between a cache on a modern PC and a mobile processor is huge, meaning that not only are mobile processors far slower than their PC equivalent but for more complex programs they're more likely to be shuffling data in and out of their cache areas meaning that its not a straight comparison of instruction speed - but a much worse comparison in reality. I also stand by what I indicated regarding the lack of actual performance details about most mobile device processors; few companies like the concept of making such things public because they might be on the losing side of things and users are easily misled about the speed of devices rather than realizing the 'true' limitations of them (which is proved by your current beliefs). PS - I'm not 'brushing off' such ideas at all and I do indeed believe there will be a time when a mobile device is able to run the full FM 3d match engine ... however that day isn't today I'm afraid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
will8578 Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 hello i hate apple cause they rip you off for the logo, iv got an asus transformer which wipes the floor of the ipad, surely if youv made it for the ipad, you can make it for android, please please please, and you can actually use a mouse with it because it has a keyboard dock. i would love love love to have it on my asus, tablets are the way forward, thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceirdiff Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Oh, sure; I deliberately missed out stuff like the processor cache - but given that such a point isn't mentioned in your specs for FM, and some people (ie me c1 year ago) were still playing it on a Cempron... From my understanding from Computing classes, processor cache is just RAM that is situated closer to the CPU, right? Blazingly fast and all but there still isn't a massive amount of it and large portions are going to be taken up by system critical operations, i/o and the like. Whilst RAM is, of course slower its still pretty fast and isn't going to massively reduce playability (before I upgraded my RAM certain programs were eating into swap space, and even that wasn't too slow). I would like to see where you get the idea that a lot of companies hide processor specs - I've never had trouble finding such information aside from that the the PSP Vital. But yeah, I definitely gave a simplified view but that was to counter your fairly simplified response from the other side ;-) (Oh, and if anyone noticed, the HTC amaze is only 1.5gHz dual core, despite initial reports suggesting the other.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Marc Vaughan Posted December 5, 2011 SI Staff Share Posted December 5, 2011 I would like to see where you get the idea that a lot of companies hide processor specs - I've never had trouble finding such information aside from that the the PSP Vital. Theres a big difference between a company indicating that a processor is a dual core 1.2Ghz processor and actually indicating its real world performance characteristics - you generally won't find any such information on Apples iOS processors for instance because they don't make them available - in a similar fashion benchmarks for Android equivalent processors aren't common either. I'm quite happy to wade into the depths of geekiness with you regarding processors and why FM PC on a tablet isn't viable today - but to be honest, please just trust me, I've a reasonable knowledge of the performance level of such devices in todays marketplace and it isn't ... simple as that. If you want a 'real world' comparison FMHi running on my Mac is around 100 times faster than it running on my iPhone4 - this is despite the game being heavily optimised for a mobile device rather than a modern PC (ie. its designed in such a manner to run optimally on a mobile device) ... FM PC on the other hand is optimised for larger processors so the performance differential would be far largely (probably 250-500 times slower). This would mean it would likely take approximately 250-500 seconds (ie. 4 -8 minutes) to actually simulate an FM PC/Mac match on todays mobile processors. You are more than welcome to continue to disagree with me on these points, however I would suggest that you actually undertake some programming on these devices before posting further - you'll find that some practical experience might help you understand what I'm trying to explain. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machetero Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 hello i hate apple cause they rip you off for the logo, iv got an asus transformer which wipes the floor of the ipad, surely if youv made it for the ipad, you can make it for android, please please please, and you can actually use a mouse with it because it has a keyboard dock. i would love love love to have it on my asus, tablets are the way forward, thanks. Just think about it - are your asking SI to make the game for Android, or, what your post really means - for ASUS Android tablets? (one of the) porblem is that Android OS is not (or rather was not before recent release) homogeneous for all devices. Not all Android devices have keyboard/mouse, etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
will8578 Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 dont worry i have since added my voice to the android post, hadnt noticed it before, and also i know what i wrote and i understand it lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashidi Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 It was discussion like this that led to the demise of FMLive, I don't want to see the same thing happen to FMH, SI have their limitations within which they need to work. Naturally they would want the best playing experience for the handheld devices, whitin reason. And that reason is financial. Whilst FM is one of the uniquely, and probably only fan driven game in the world, allow SI to work within their timeline.Handheld devices are naturally getting more popular, something I predicted when I was beta testin FM 08, this will the year. Allow SI to position themselves so that they get it right, and maybe when the time allows we get a better handheld version Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceirdiff Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 It was discussion like this that led to the demise of FMLive, I don't want to see the same thing happen to FMH, SI have their limitations within which they need to work. Naturally they would want the best playing experience for the handheld devices, whitin reason. And that reason is financial. Whilst FM is one of the uniquely, and probably only fan driven game in the world, allow SI to work within their timeline.Handheld devices are naturally getting more popular, something I predicted when I was beta testin FM 08, this will the year. Allow SI to position themselves so that they get it right, and maybe when the time allows we get a better handheld version I strongly disagree with that and suggest it is a great disservice to the FOSS world, including one game that Marc Vaughan himself plays. The thing here is that we are not asking for different development timelines, merely the adoption of other platforms. Obviously whilst this requires a massive level of initial labour capitol, past that point things can go a lot faster. Besides, unlike many handheld platforms, Android allows you to code directly in C++ without clunky wrappers having to be written around it. Even if it didn't, from my personal experience porting code between two languages your reasonably familiar with is pretty fast. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zylya Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Technological limitations aside, I, for one, would love to see the day when I could play FM on my computer, save the game, then download it onto my phone and continue the same game. Of course there'd be stuff missing in mobile version, but as long as it was just graphical features (e.g. 3d match engine etc) and not gameplay options then it would be great to see. Obviously not feasible right now, but are SI interested in this philosophically (i.e. assuming the technical barriers didn't exist)? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stampler Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 This will never happen as long as those tablets have such crappy technical specs. Sorry for that, but you cant have everything on your beautiful Iphone/-pad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Marc Vaughan Posted January 11, 2012 SI Staff Share Posted January 11, 2012 Obviously not feasible right now, but are SI interested in this philosophically (i.e. assuming the technical barriers didn't exist)? I've gone on record before as expecting device convergence to happen in the long term and to be one of the reasons why I think its important for SI to investigate other mediums, input mechanisms and suchlike. To explain further its my expectation long term that in 15-20 years time people won't 'think' in terms of a Mac, PC or console - purely in terms of using a program, the medium they utilise it through will simply be whatever is available at hand. Thus if you're in front of your television screen then it'll be viewed on that and controlled using something appropriate, if you're on the train then it'll probably be played either through a 'screen' on that transport or your tablet or phone ... or possibly transmitted directly onto the contact lenses you're wearing. Where data will be stored will simply not be known, it'll be loaded to where you are and saved off to a 'cloud' location which frankly you don't care about so long as you can get to it ... (one of the aspects of my job I love is doing the 'sci fi' predictions of where things are going ) So yeah - long term I expect things to converge and eventually you be able to play on whatever medium is to hand, however one proviso I'd make is that I'd expect the experience to be tailored to that medium ... for instance if you're playing on a train then the game might tailor itself somewhat to being played in a shorter burst than if you're playing it sat at a desk at home .. that isn't that it'd be 'different' as an engine, but the UI would be more casual (and potentially slightly limited) on smaller devices for obvious reasons to make it easier and more appropriate to play optimally. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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