AI has 'sussed' my tactics

This is my big problem with FM08, am into my second season in Premier after having done well in my first (4th place) with Everton.

Now, into my second season I am sitting mid table at xmas stuggling to win games and all FIVE of my strikers on 9hour goal droughts (yeah right), but with a far superior team than I had last year.

The only explanation is that the AI has 'sussed' my tactics. This infuriates me no-end. In real life EFC have played a similar type of football/formation ever since Moyes first came to the club, you dont see him having to god damm 'tweak' his formation every 12months because the rest of the premier managers have 'sussed' his usual gameplan do you!?

Man Utd have played the same attacking football for the last 15years so why hasnt the whole premier league 'sussed' their tactics eh?

What im trying to say is, you shouldnt have to be 'tweaking and changing' tactics/formations all the time, as I dont feel this is realistic and does NOT happen IRL.

I feel far too much in FM depends on factors other than the players actual abilities which in reality is THE major factor.

This is my big problem with FM08, am into my second season in Premier after having done well in my first (4th place) with Everton.

Now, into my second season I am sitting mid table at xmas stuggling to win games and all FIVE of my strikers on 9hour goal droughts (yeah right), but with a far superior team than I had last year.

The only explanation is that the AI has 'sussed' my tactics. This infuriates me no-end. In real life EFC have played a similar type of football/formation ever since Moyes first came to the club, you dont see him having to god damm 'tweak' his formation every 12months because the rest of the premier managers have 'sussed' his usual gameplan do you!?

Man Utd have played the same attacking football for the last 15years so why hasnt the whole premier league 'sussed' their tactics eh?

What im trying to say is, you shouldnt have to be 'tweaking and changing' tactics/formations all the time, as I dont feel this is realistic and does NOT happen IRL.

I feel far too much in FM depends on factors other than the players actual abilities which in reality is THE major factor.

I can see how you say real life managers dont have to constantly tweak their formations. Personally I have never had any problems with my formations. ok I may have started a season poorly, but I stuck with them - maybe dropping a few players- and it came good. If your'e having such a problem, can't it be a challenge, is it not more fun to continually try to outsmart the computer ?Personally I'm finding things a bit too easy at the moment, but we'll see

why dont u watch the 2d game...see where u are going wrong and make adjustments accordingly?u cant juts have the same tactic evry game and expect to win.

I would say that in real life managers do constantly tweak there tactics. look at West ham when they recently got promoted they were high flyers then the next season they were fighting relegation.

I have a real problem with this. First half of the season, my tactic was working fine. Second half of the season, I'm scoring barely half as many goals and I'm having real trouble.

There's suggestions that the AI has 'sussed' the tactic.

Trouble is, when this happens, when the AI figures out your tactic, it doesn't seem to do much other than to suddenly turn your Premiership players into Sunday League amateurs. I find that all of a sudden, players make ridiculous decisions, completely ignore tactical instructions and proceed to miss easy chances that they would've tucked away early in the season.

AI sussing tactics seems to = your players suddenly becoming rubbish for no reason.

Except in Europe, where my players are still doing exactly what I want, and playing as they have throughout the season.

Only in the Premier League do they suddenly belt the ball down the line to no one instead of playing an easy 5 yard pass, REFUSE to stand in front of an opposition player about to shoot, contrive to miss bread and butter chances, etc.

To sum up, it seems to me more like the players suddenly decide to ignore their tactical instructions and their abilities instead of the AI suddenly managing to counter your tactic.

Here's what I always do.

I always (ever since CM2) play a 433 formation. But when my team is in a bad period and loses a lot of points, I change my formation to a 442-formation for about 2 or 3 matches. It always works for me some how. Maybe it is because it surprises the opponents, or perhaps it just makes the players sharper or something.

I forgot to mention: After those two/three matches I go back to my original 433-formation again.

tactics is a general blanket term for instructions and formation. 9 times out of 10 a manager keeps his formation the same, its his instructions which DO get tweaked and altered. Alex Ferguson wouldn't send his players out with the same instructions for at home to Derby as he would away to Arsenal.

I definitely feel your pain alstonrick.

I can see why SI have done it this way, as clearly in real life managers do tweak tactics depending upon the teams they are playing against, and whether they are playing home/away. Clearly, when playing away against Arsenal, Sir Alex doesn't tell his team to be as attacking as he would playing at home to Fulham. Clearly they wouldn't commit as many men forward at every opportunity.

However , the way that the game does it at the moment, it so seemingly "nullify" your tactics, just because you haven't changed your tactics enough in a while, which is simply the wrong way to look at it, in my opinion. No matter what team you play against, they all seem to think as one... whereas in real life, different teams have different approaches to how to defeat your system. In this game, I think there should be more independence, I mean surely there should be a model for each AI team to change as individual units, unlike at the moment, where the AI acts as one for all teams

I don't know whether I've expressed myself in an understandable way here, as it's mostly just some rambling ideas spat out here...

Its not your tactics its just the effects of morale. When you start loosing you will keep on loosing just like when you start winning you will keep on winning. Try to play a few friendlies against your u18 team to improve morale. No idea why morale seems to affect the players so much.

Thanks for the reply's everyone.

Interesting to hear other peoples views :-)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Man Utd have played the same attacking football for the last 15years so why hasnt the whole premier league 'sussed' their tactics eh? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you are getting tactics mixed up with formation.

Manchester United have used the same formation for much of the 15 years but they change tactics for every game

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pele10:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Man Utd have played the same attacking football for the last 15years so why hasnt the whole premier league 'sussed' their tactics eh? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you are getting tactics mixed up with formation.

Manchester United have used the same formation for much of the 15 years but they change tactics for every game </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

not so, I believe Man Utd have used different variations of 4-4-2 throughout that period. I remember a few years back when they came unstuck and didn't win the league for a while. Ferguson changed things by bring one forward deeper.

good point but i think Man Utd went wrong when they tried playing 4-5-1 / 4-3-3.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pele10:

good point but i think Man Utd went wrong when they tried playing 4-5-1 / 4-3-3. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did they not win the league last season with that formation?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pele10:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Man Utd have played the same attacking football for the last 15years so why hasnt the whole premier league 'sussed' their tactics eh? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you are getting tactics mixed up with formation.

Manchester United have used the same formation for much of the 15 years but they change tactics for every game </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong way round.

I believe someone from SI has said in the past that the AI doesn't "suss" your tactics.

What happens is that if you're doing well the AI will treat you differently as your reputation will have increased and as a result your more defensive tactics are no longer as successful. Therefore all you need to do is play a more attacking system if your problem is breaking teams down, which it usually is in these situations.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sir_Liam:

I believe someone from SI has said in the past that the AI doesn't "suss" your tactics.

What happens is that if you're doing well the AI will treat you differently as your reputation will have increased and as a result your more defensive tactics are no longer as successful. Therefore all you need to do is play a more attacking system if your problem is breaking teams down, which it usually is in these situations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly correct. Once you have reached a level of success opposing teams will begin to be more conservative against you and are thus tougher to break down. You need to work out how to do it. Your tactics are not 'sussed', just not appropriate for the situation you are now in.

I always change my tactics after a game until I get to the team selection screen for the next game. So during a game I play 442, but when I am not playing a match I am playing 424 or 352, that works for me! I find that if I leave my tactics as 442 then the ai do better against me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">all FIVE of my strikers on 9hour goal droughts </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To the OP:

That is not likely to be a tactics issue.

That's likely to be a team-talks issue.

Please see Communication and Psychological Warfare and/or Wolfgang's Guide to Team Talks.

.. I also agree with pele10: I have five saved versions of one formation, but things like the mentality, passing style, tempo, and frequency of forward runs are changed around. I call those "five different tactics", and I use different ones for different matches .. and for different situations within each match as it evolves.

(I mean, its possible its tactics, if they aren't getting chances. But if they're getting chances, and just not able to convert for love or money, then its a psychological issue not a tactical one.)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

Exactly correct. Once you have reached a level of success opposing teams will begin to be more conservative against you and are thus tougher to break down. You need to work out how to do it. Your tactics are not 'sussed', just not appropriate for the situation you are now in. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whilst I agree whole-heartedly with this comment, I do feel that the "re-ranking" as it is often referred to is flawed, especially in respect to big teams.

Drawing from personal (and painful) experience as Shakhtar in a network game I'm playing at the moment my players are seemingly going from World-beaters to donkeys in a matter of games. In essence, re-ranking should not be an issue as the majority of teams in the High League should already consider themselves vastly inferior and most teams are expected to try and contain my team whether it is through high closing down, defending deep, or any other means.

However, since the winter break, we've lost our clinicism and oppositions are striking lucky (in my last two games I've conceeded two goals without either team managing a shot on target). I'm quite analytical of these things, so I've watched back previous games and these games to see what could be different. The opposition don't appear to be playing any different, and the stats seem to suggest that everything is the same as before but my strikers no longer seem able to convert chances at the same rate. Perhaps morale is an issue, you say. But alas, all my forwards have Very Good or Superb morale. My midfielders' morale is also high (considering we are still winning a fair few games).

So I've looked at the types of shots we are having to make sure that we don't appear to be trying too many long shots, or relying on strikers successfully converting from headers. But yet again, I find that the majority of my chances are in the box or just outside (within 20 yards of goal) - in fact when I compared the first 5 games of the season to the first 5 games after the winter break, I discovered that in the opening games of the season I had 73% of chances inside the box and in the most recent 5 that had dropped to 71%. This obviously throws up other possible reasons for my lack of clinicism. Perhaps the opposition are lying very deep and therefore when you are getting chances in the box my strikers are having to shoot through a crowd of players, are perhaps being shown onto a weaker foot, or are being closed down quicker. Well once again, this doesn't seem to be the case, as the main change appears to now be my players ability to strike the ball straight at the keeper of narrowly wide. I have noticed no discernible decrease in any of my strikers composure, off the ball or finishing attributes.

Finally you might point to the players condition, perhaps as a result of the mid-season break, or perhaps due to the tole of an overly strenuous training schedule. I was the only manager to arrange friendlies during the break, and this was due to my Champions League tie against Arsenal being two weeks before I returned to action in the league. Prior to the game I arranged 3 basic friendlies with the last one being a week before the Arsenal match. No player played more than 45 minutes, and by the time we got to our Champions League game the majority of my players were "match fit". Furthermore none of my players have had condition below 93% going into a match, nor has anyone had a "Rst" status appear next to their name. Finally, I haven't found a single player unhappy with the training workload.

This leads me to conclude that my sudden lack of clinicism appears to be nothing more than a spate of horrendous luck that just happens to coincide with the time of year where a large number of other forum-goers experience a barren run.

Now this is the first time, I've ever really played as a genuinely "big" team (in relation to their league), and as a result I find this a lot more perplexing that in other career games. This is mainly due to the fact that my shortcomings in this game appear to be inexplicable, whereas I can usually see in other games where things are going wrong.

I accept luck can play a huge part (conceeding two awfully deflected shots in consecutive games when the opponents registered 0 shots on target, plus a contentious penalty decision against me - but then earlier in the season I'm sure I've had a couple of incorrect decisions go in my favour) but this can only go some degree. It genuinely feels like I'm starting to lose and draw games I should otherwise be winning quite comfortably for no reason. This causes further grievance when I can't help but feel that this perceived "re-ranking" or "sussing" of my tactics shouldn't really occur for a team already strongly favoured for every match bar one (away to Dinamo Kiev).

phew that was a long passage ^

^

however i agree i often tweek my formations rather than my tactic(if that makes sense) i.e i change my WBL/WBR to DR/DL with arrows pointed to WBL/WBR position and then that ussaly solves it. next year i will prob have to go back to WBL/WBR

but thats the game. get used to it