Tactic Testing Feature

One thing i would love to have for the next version of FM is a tactic testing feature where you can play 1 game with any two teams and test different tactical settings in a game. as it stands if i want to really examine a tactic i have to load and reload the same save game and it is somewhat annoying. in a dedicated feature you would be able to set familiarity levels and other stuff to really see how well your tactic works out in the game. I know that real managers dont get this type of simulation to help them but given than this is a game and it can be hard to understand how the ME works and you cant simply tell your player to do exactly what you want.

hello this is an simulation GAME and not a software that require you to exploits the ME in order to win the game.

if you want to know how ME is working then join SI and help them with the ME design and making.

you can get better as seasons goes and with more match experience. this is what real life manager does.

lose a game then watch the replay, see how can you do better in the next match.

not keep repeating the same match try to exploit the ME, that's football you cant win all the time

I find it ever fascinating that people feel they need to understand how the ME works in order to win. You need to understand how the ME works in order to exploit it. In order to win, you only need to understand football and management.

If you employ football logical tactics that suit your team and follow basic practices in man management, you won't go far wrong.

And if you react the changes in how a game is going as it is played, instead of sticking to the same tactic and instructions. Its all about being flexible!

You have a way already! It's called F...R...I....E...N...D...L...I...E...S, you fix two against the same team then play different teams/tactics in each one. Simples

Yeah, love the above post. I remember back in the day when on CM, you had the killer tactic. What is the point of that though. I would rather lose a game and learn from that mistake rather than finding some tactic that allows me to win every game. I must tweak mine up to six times a game at a max. Only once have I played through a game with a static tactic if you will. Maybe I'm crap, but too me that is just football.

A horrible idea and quite frankly your way of developing a tactic is flawed, you learn very little playing the same game over and over.

You have a way already! It's called F...R...I....E...N...D...L...I...E...S, you fix two against the same team then play different teams/tactics in each one. Simples

This.. the end

One thing i would love to have for the next version of FM is a tactic testing feature where you can play 1 game with any two teams and test different tactical settings in a game. as it stands if i want to really examine a tactic i have to load and reload the same save game and it is somewhat annoying. in a dedicated feature you would be able to set familiarity levels and other stuff to really see how well your tactic works out in the game. I know that real managers dont get this type of simulation to help them but given than this is a game and it can be hard to understand how the ME works and you cant simply tell your player to do exactly what you want.

That's why we have the concept of 'Pre-season' in football. Play as many games as you want and try as many tactics as you want before the season starts. Simple as that.

Playing the same game over and over will not help you, because it's not the same game. The moment the first pass is made, the game is different because your player might pass it left or he might pass it right. It might get intercepted. No matter if both teams have the same starting tactic, this event will not be the same every time and the butterfly effect comes in and could make the game drastically different.

The best way to tell if your tactics are working is using it over a sustained period of time, like pre-season friendlies as others have mentioned.

Also, it's supposed to be a simulation, and losing matches and trying different things is part and parcel of being a football manager. Take this away and there isn't much of a game left.

It's always amusing to see the venom that gets directed at people on this forum for suggesting perfectly reasonable ideas.

The OP isn't saying he wants to find exploits in the ME. At no point did the OP say he wanted to win every game. The OP is saying it would be helpful to have a "quick match" feature because, especially for new players, it's not particularly clear how individual mentality settings translate into plain English.

If your argument is that this game is a simulation, then surely you are aware that real football managers give tactical instructions in plain language. They don't walk up to their striker, say "Mentality 14" and wait patiently for 10 matches trying to figure out how the player interpreted it.

That's why we have the concept of 'Pre-season' in football. Play as many games as you want and try as many tactics as you want before the season starts. Simple as that.

This is not true at all. In real life, a manager could position their players on the training ground and spend the next few hours positioning them and giving them very precise tactical instructions. In FM, you only get a limited number of matches (even against U18 and Reserve squads) to test tactics without risking overexertion and injury, and as the OP pointed out, the "Awkward" familiarity levels will often prevent you from determining if your tactical instructions are accurately reflected via the tactics creator. In real life, managers don't have to worry about a computer program accurately conveying what they want. They simply tell the players what to do, where to stand and where to run in plain language.

I actually organise quite a few friendlies between my reserves and U18s to look at tactical ideas as well as keeping players fit and looking at how they are doing. That's both realistic and not far away from what the OP wants - at least until training in FM becomes more detailed and the manager can attend training sessions.

This to be honest. Although everyone's entitled to play the game however they want, I'd personally consider loading and reloading a save to see if a tactic works as outright cheating tbh.

Again, it depends on what you're aiming at. If you're trying to see if a tactic is some unbeatable, uber-tactic, I agree. If you're trying to see if you successfully conveyed your ideas via the tactics creator, I don't see a problem. Obviously, this isn't an issue for FM grognards and the game's developers, but to your average player, the tactics creator is formidable and actually quite cryptic.

Moreover, as someone who likes to experiment with unorthodox tactical concepts, I would love a feature like this, because once you venture outside the friendly confines of your standard 4-4-2s and 4-3-3s, it takes hours and hours of tweaking to get to a point where you're not "simulating" just speaking to your players in Mandarin Chinese. That's fine for your average unemployed university student, not so much for those of us who have jobs and would like to be able to work out the right tactical instructions in the hour or so we have to play each day.

And generally, if anything that breaches absolute fidelity to real world constraints is cheating, then surely, starting a new game of Football Manager after your first is "cheating" because real football managers only get one life to live and don't get to start over if the first one gets tedious. And they certainly don't get to carry over knowledge from past lives into new careers. Ultimately, this is just a game and, no matter how hardcore you are about FM12, you have at some point benefited from a violation of real world constraints, even if its just knowledge and experience from past careers. All a "quick match" feature would do is expedite players' ability to get a handle on the tactics creator and mentality system, two very game-y things that don't really have anything to do with the real world.

I actually organise quite a few friendlies between my reserves and U18s to look at tactical ideas as well as keeping players fit and looking at how they are doing. That's both realistic and not far away from what the OP wants - at least until training in FM becomes more detailed and the manager can attend training sessions.

I agree that it's a realistic way to look at tactical ideas. What I'm saying is that it's not realistic if you're merely trying to see if your tactical instructions were properly conveyed via the computer program. Again, that is not a problem that real managers have to worry about. They give very precise instructions in plain language and players understand them. Players sometimes ignore them, but they understand them nonetheless. FM, for obvious reasons, is unable to give us that much detail and control at the moment, so I don't see a problem with the OP's idea.

This to be honest. Although everyone's entitled to play the game however they want, I'd personally consider loading and reloading a save to see if a tactic works as outright cheating tbh.

I'll tell you why. Currently it is really hard to understand if your actions really do have an impact. For example if I use the "Exploit the flanks" for 15 minutes during a match I'm not quite sure anything changes. Maybe if I watch the whole match I will see it, but that are 90 freaking minutes per match and, hey, it is just a game, remember?

The ways to do this are

1. What the OP wants - easy and simple

2. Saving and loading - ineffective workaround

3. Having consecutive friendlies with the same line-ups, motivation, fitness and tactics on both sides - slow and not easy to achieve

It is a game, it is supposed to be enjoyable and option 2 which already exists isn't, so we want it done better. It may be your job, but new players don't want to spend years of their life to get a *feel* of the ME, they want to play a game and be sure that their actions have results and what are those results (because, frankly, things are not well explained from any official source). Or we can just watch a match on the TV.

Such an option won't change the gameplay for hardcore fans, they can just not use it, the same the LLM forum doesn't use the search feature. More so, you probably already have such an option for debugging purposes, just put it somewhere in training and call it a match session.

The same is with a "show result" button a lot of people asked for to get over an easy match faster, because they don't have a life to spend playing. It doesn't hurt anybody and there already is some inconvenient workaround, but you just won't include it for some self-righteous reasons.

I find it ever fascinating that people feel they need to understand how the ME works in order to win. You need to understand how the ME works in order to exploit it. In order to win, you only need to understand football and management.

If you employ football logical tactics that suit your team and follow basic practices in man management, you won't go far wrong.

hi wwfan,

"our" tactical discussion can continue here ...

First of all, i repeat, i've deeply respect for FM and people involved in it.

If i've some critical opinions it's just because i want more from any section of the game and if we talk about finance, tactics and advertising (for example...) i'm not happy with the development and improvements that we had in the last years.

Now I don't want to write a lot and main reason is because i'm new in this forum and I'll probably tell you something that u already heard ...

So is better that i just make some questions (with screenshots in attachment^^):

In your opinion, will be possible, in the near future, to have an "open" ME, totally customizable, where I can develop tactics and I can decide the position of players when the ball is in a determined area of the pitch???.

No offence, i'm asking something that breaks schemes of robotized ME.

The day that ME will control (in great part) IA only, i'll be very happy.

I'm asking too much ???

Players that like actual interface will be able and free to continue to play it in a classic way, i don't want to make it extremely difficult for people that just want a low level of simulation; but of course much depth to the simulation must be added, otherwise FM will continue to be exposed to weaker points.

You are using the 'Move into Channels' option for wingers. Move into Channels is actually a wide movement for central players, encouraging them to move wider. WIngers should be given either "Hugs Touchline' which keeps them wide or 'Cuts Inside' which encourages them to move into more central positions.

I really hope that something goes in another direction;

if not, we need more (much more) options to what is the tactical interface right now.

if we talk about movements "attack space" \ "attack defensive line" (and come back to get the ball... give depth to the action without ball) are welcome.

"Actually" is vague as "move into channels" ...

Last question:

Do u remember Ultimate Soccer Manager ???

best regards,

It was interesting to see the first few posts blasting this idea. Its really not about exploiting the ME. It originated because sometimes i would like to try some asymmetrical or 3 at the back or other non mainline tactics and i have no idea how those things should properly be entered into the tactical settings to play cohesively in the manner i prefer. At other times i am playing my standard 4-2-3-1 and simply cannot figure out how to get my players to do what i want. IRL i could just tell them to do it but in FM i have to give them a combination of instructions which may or may not be doing what my goal is. I dont have hours of training weekly to see how the pieces of my tactic are working like real life managers do. As was mentioned above sometimes you use a shout and you cannot tell if it is doing something or if it is being negated by other instructions.

someone above mentioned that each game is different and that is true. however teams usually have the same starting tactic and style and you can see the same issues cropping up every time you play the game. your wingers arent tracking back as you like or the midfielders pickup the wrong men in defense. most of the tactical questions in the the tactical forum are "how do i get player x to do y" which is something that this tool would help these players in addressing.

I am surprised at the condescending tone of some of the above posts. While I can understand the exploiting the ME argument, I find it difficult to accept the 'brush everything under the carpet and just play football' line of thought, so to speak. FM is limited, the tactics creator is limited, the choices a player is given are limited, and above all, they might seem arbitrary and difficult to comprehend in certain areas - areas which are not like that in real life. This is not a criticism, the game can be great fun, plenty of the settings are easy to understand and control and whatnot. But to dismiss an approach asking for greater clarity in understanding how the game works, so a player can understand and play it better? That's just silly, isn't it.

I don't mean to single out any particular post as it's more of a general thing, but wwfan said to 'employ logical tactics' and 'basic management', that's sound advice most of the time, but not when one is desperately trying to make something from real life football work through the limitations of FM. And not some fancy schmancy stuff, but basic things like attacking/defensive positioning, or finding out which settings best emulate the team shape and movement you had in mind, you know, those details that would be a 'common sense' thing, a fairly easy idea to get across, but in-game it's made more difficult through the (obviously necessary) user interface and available options. That's when a tactic testing feature would come in handy.

Although I do realize that's taking the original problem into a whole new direction, into the realm of just how realistic and flexible the game can get considering the enormous amount of real life possibilities and at the same time the need to put them into a single video game...

There is actually a great three step system to seeing how tactics will work:

1) Evaluate your players, find out which positions your team in strong and weak in, then create a tactic as needed. Adjust the directness and fluidity as needed. Reinforce as needed.

2) Play friendlies and see how things go during matches.

3) Repeat steps one through two

... But to dismiss an approach asking for greater clarity in understanding how the game works, so a player can understand and play it better? That's just silly, isn't it.

... And not some fancy schmancy stuff, but basic things like attacking/defensive positioning, or finding out which settings best emulate the team shape and movement you had in mind, you know, those details that would be a 'common sense' thing, a fairly easy idea to get across, but in-game it's made more difficult through the (obviously necessary) user interface and available options. That's when a tactic testing feature would come in handy.

Although I do realize that's taking the original problem into a whole new direction, into the realm of just how realistic and flexible the game can get considering the enormous amount of real life possibilities and at the same time the need to put them into a single video game...

For sure, the title of this thread is wrong.

Let's call it "tactic creator feature", a ME for users, totally customizable.

I completely do not agree, as many, with the title because is something that goes in the opposite direction of a simulation.

But just think about the possibility that one day Football Manager will have the "same" online mode, as FIFA 12.

if there are 2 team with the same reputation or I have a match with another player, same teams (eg. Juventus vs Juventus), in order to gain points in an head to head season, what will make the difference ???

what will make it viral ???

As in FIFA 12, if there is something wrong with IA, after one/two weeks, the curve of attention will be easily in decline phase ...