What Should Matter the Most (To have sucess in Football and FM)

Hi,

This is a little discussion that could be pretty interesting.

I believe that the sucess in football its the result of the combination of several factors: Quality of the players, Quality of the staff members, Tactics, Team Morale, Team Facilities, etc etc

But of course, not all those factors have the same weight.

In this years edition, theres seems to be a big discussion about the importance of Team Morale in the sucess of the teams. A team with great morale wins a lot, a team with low morale find very hard to turn around the situation and loose a lot.

For me, i always find that the most important thing in a football team is the quality of the players. I mean, you can have the best manager in the world, you can have a great psychologist working with your players... top facilities... but if you dont have the best players... you can beat the best teams.

I know, that once in a while we see the underdog beat a big team...but this is the exception, not the rule.

So in your opinion what is the most important thing in order to obtain sucess? and do you think that FM is getting this point right?

Team morale and quality players goes hand-in-hand. You need to have good morale to have a quality player. Imagine Ronaldo playing for a team he hates.

Why should Ronaldo sign for a team he hates?

But anyway, you must not forget the profissionalism of the players!

I think generally FM represents it well. As you say, the better the players, the better the team, and I'd say that is the case in FM. However, if a team gets low morale on FM, it can be difficult to turn things around. Arsenal last year are a great example of this in real life, they lost the Carling Cup final, and then have been poor ever since (picked up again now of course). What FM cannot accurately represent is the sheer number of different ways players react to situations, although it does try to. Things like determination etc play a part in turning things around.

Ofcourse it's the quality of players. It was always like that. But fm gets it to the point where it's only 'works' in some way, in the way of CA and PA. And what fm do not takes in account (at least not the way it should take), is the experience. I mean experienced players. The importance of experienced players in fm should be much, much higher than it is right now. I'm not saying that young players shouldn't perform well - they should, because they do irl. But if i have two equally good players and one of them is 20 and the other is 29, there is no pint or any benefit for me to put the 29 one in the match squad. It will be even better if i'll pick up the 20 one, he'll gain some CA.

Look at any good team, who were ever good at anything; won a league or a cup, performed above expectations. There are always experienced players in there, and they mean alot to that teams. Look at Levante in La Liga right now.

Why should Ronaldo sign for a team he hates?

But anyway, you must not forget the profissionalism of the players!

I'm using that as an example. If you hate the manager of your team, you won't be likely to play very well.

I'm amazed I'm one of only 2 people to go for Morale/Ambition. To me a harmonious locker room and a collective strength of personality is more important than just ability in FM. Especially given you have to shell out more money for the higher ability players (particularly in wages), but players of good personality wont demand as much money, and even if of lesser ability, very often will perform as well regardless as they're self-motivating.

I would have said a mixture of all of the options is whats important, not just one of them.

I would have said a mixture of all of the options is whats important, not just one of them.

I agree with that. The balance may not always be right but they should all contribute.

I'm amazed I'm one of only 2 people to go for Morale/Ambition. To me a harmonious locker room and a collective strength of personality is more important than just ability in FM. Especially given you have to shell out more money for the higher ability players (particularly in wages), but players of good personality wont demand as much money, and even if of lesser ability, very often will perform as well regardless as they're self-motivating.

Morale/Ambition can give your team an extra strength... but imo, at the end of the day... quality it's the most important factor.

I would have said a mixture of all of the options is whats important, not just one of them.

The point of this thread it's not saying that just one of those factors matters. I think its obvious for all that, all those factors (and others) are needed for a team achieve sucess.

But, if you considerer all this factors.... should they all have the same weight?

As was said above, morale, ambition and other mentalities are of course connected to player quality. There are many players with great physique and technique who never performs at the highest levels of football. What makes the difference is their minds, so quality players will of course think faster, keep their cool and be inclined to work harder for their goals.

The problem is that in FM and FM12 in particular a mediocre or poor player can do the exact same things as world-class superstars can do, if his morale is good and he is motivated.

Good morale can't make a blind man see.

The point of this thread it's not saying that just one of those factors matters. I think its obvious for all that, all those factors (and others) are needed for a team achieve sucess.

But, if you considerer all this factors.... should they all have the same weight?

Sorry i didnt want to make it seem like i was taking a dump on your thread

Again purely from a personal point of view but i dont think either is more or less important than the next, the way i see it is like baking a cake, to make a really good cake you need the right amount of all the ingredients, a football club in FM terms for me is no different. The clubs staff and facilities need to be at a good level to ensure the players are of the highest quality, which in turn should mean you having a more succesful squad and as such a happier squad.

But putting all that aside and to actually answer your question, i would say moral is one of the single most important things at any football club. You can have a fantastic group of players, but if they are not happy together they will not be succesful, equally you can have a very average team of players and yet achieve fantastic success if you have the right dressing room atmosphere. Look at Rangers a few years ago, getting all the way to the EURO cup final with a squad that would have struggled in the Championship, but with the amazing man management skills of Walter Smith and McCoist they excelled, played far above what you would have expected from such an average team. On the flip side look at Rooney last year, absolutely flying before summer, then a few personal problems mixed in with a contract dispute and his moral plummeted and so did his form, people on here were calling for him to be downgraded, but a year later, his moral is back up and he is flying again, being touted for the world player of the year award. You can have all the talent in the world but it is completely useless if you dont have the right mentality to go along with it.

But putting all that aside and to actually answer your question, i would say moral is one of the single most important things at any football club. You can have a fantastic group of players, but if they are not happy together they will not be succesful, equally you can have a very average team of players and yet achieve fantastic success if you have the right dressing room atmosphere. Look at Rangers a few years ago, getting all the way to the EURO cup final with a squad that would have struggled in the Championship, but with the amazing man management skills of Walter Smith and McCoist they excelled, played far above what you would have expected from such an average team. On the flip side look at Rooney last year, absolutely flying before summer, then a few personal problems mixed in with a contract dispute and his moral plummeted and so did his form, people on here were calling for him to be downgraded, but a year later, his moral is back up and he is flying again, being touted for the world player of the year award. You can have all the talent in the world but it is completely useless if you dont have the right mentality to go along with it.

I agree with you, but the way i see it... in terms of translate real life to FM, is that what you just said about Rangers its something that happens but it's not the normal situation.

In FM, it seems that situations like the Rangers case it's the normal.

Two years ago, Benfica played fantastic football in the Portuguese league. With players like Di Maria, Ramires, the team were flying.

But when they play against Liverpool in the Europa League, they loose. Against a Liverpool side that wasn't play very well.

Why?

1) Liverpool had a better team

2) Manager Jorge Jesus made some terrible decisions (like playing David Luiz as a left fullback)

I know this is just an example, but imho, at the end of the day, good players and good decisions by the managers is what makes sucess. Of course that with wins, more wins will come, motivation and great morale. But that wont keep you on top if your manager give some crap decisions.

And yet, in FM, it seems that... once you get your team in a great morale stage... no matter what you do... you still win.

By the way... just look at the poll results... and they reflect exactly what i think about the different weight of those factors!

I would have said a mixture of all of the options is whats important, not just one of them.

This is the truth when it comes down to it. FM is, at times, a complex beast when it comes to success and you'll end up finding out that it takes more than just one factor to be successful.

Player quality matters the most. A depressed Barcelona side would still rip relegation-threatened sides to pieces even if these sides were absolutely fired up.

The team's morale would probably be second... Mental strength should not be underestimated, but heart and grit is still no match for skill and technique.

Third is probably the manager and coaching staff - a great manager would be able to influence the other two, however. But if everything else is kept constant, sometimes the players play well despite a poor manager (i.e. Koeman and Valencia in the Copa del Rey final).

Last is probably the fans - who make a difference in a few games, but not over an entire season since titles are won on and off the pitch (i.e. preparation).

I agree with you, but the way i see it... in terms of translate real life to FM, is that what you just said about Rangers its something that happens but it's not the normal situation.

In FM, it seems that situations like the Rangers case it's the normal.

Two years ago, Benfica played fantastic football in the Portuguese league. With players like Di Maria, Ramires, the team were flying.

But when they play against Liverpool in the Europa League, they loose. Against a Liverpool side that wasn't play very well.

Why?

1) Liverpool had a better team

2) Manager Jorge Jesus made some terrible decisions (like playing David Luiz as a left fullback)

I know this is just an example, but imho, at the end of the day, good players and good decisions by the managers is what makes sucess. Of course that with wins, more wins will come, motivation and great morale. But that wont keep you on top if your manager give some crap decisions.

And yet, in FM, it seems that... once you get your team in a great morale stage... no matter what you do... you still win.

By the way... just look at the poll results... and they reflect exactly what i think about the different weight of those factors!

Dont get me wrong, i dont think that moral is the ONLY important factor, not at all, but i do think it is the single most important factor for a succesful football team, you wont win anything if your team is not happy, no matter how good your players are. Its maybe not normal at the very highest level, but i can safely say that using my local team as an example, when we have a good run of form and moral picks up we look like a completely different team to when we are struggling a bit, the only change is the moral.

Ill say again, you can have the best players in the world, but with the wrong set up and a poor moral you will not win a thing, but you can take a set of average players and make them play well above their abilities with the right set up and moral.

Im in the minority with my voting, but whats new there eh!! hahahaha

Dont get me wrong, i dont think that moral is the ONLY important factor, not at all, but i do think it is the single most important factor for a succesful football team, you wont win anything if your team is not happy, no matter how good your players are. Its maybe not normal at the very highest level, but i can safely say that using my local team as an example, when we have a good run of form and moral picks up we look like a completely different team to when we are struggling a bit, the only change is the moral.

Ill say again, you can have the best players in the world, but with the wrong set up and a poor moral you will not win a thing, but you can take a set of average players and make them play well above their abilities with the right set up and moral.

Im in the minority with my voting, but whats new there eh!! hahahaha

Still when a lower league team is playing the types of teams like Man United, usually win the match and that is because of two things. Luck and normally those big teams put bench warmers in the starting 11 to play match, sometimes they use to experiment youngsters.

If your going to play with those big teams, like Chelsea and Man United, and they put on first, 11 all of their best players, no matter how you put your team fired up and motivated, you are going to loose the match big time. Also tactics has well would mean nothing as well in this case.

Last year Champions League why did Man United lost the final to Barcelona? Because Messi was on top quality that night and rip Man United defence appart. Motivation had nothing to do with that.

However that doesn't mean that morale should be pointless, it should help you to be above the position you are predicted and you time to time win matches against some big teams, but don't kid yourself if you pick a team from League two and win Man United or a team from League 1.

Don't kid yourself if you think Mourinho won, what he won because he is master at motivation, but he is master tactician that use the quality of their players to that tactic and use the motivation for players to do their job to put the tactic to work best. You have the example semi final of Champions League, Inter vs Barcelona and Inter was going to play the second leg at Barcelona taking advantage of 1-0 from the first leg. Knowing that Barcelona was undefeated at their stadium Mourinho defended from the start the result, it was his tactics and using the players qualities to his team adventage to nullify the Barcelona team.

So in a way all four on the poll should have importance on your success in the game, but the most important is Quality of Players, then Tactics and then come motivation. Of all three, motivation should be least important.

Also don't confuse what Mourinho does is motivation from faith, because part of his success has faith on his players to do the job.

However that doesn't mean that morale should be pointless, it should help you to be above the position you are predicted and you time to time win matches against some big teams, but don't kid yourself if you pick a team from League two and win Man United or a team from League 1.

100% agree with this!

Player quality matters the most. A depressed Barcelona side would still rip relegation-threatened sides to pieces even if these sides were absolutely fired up.

The team's morale would probably be second... Mental strength should not be underestimated, but heart and grit is still no match for skill and technique.

Third is probably the manager and coaching staff - a great manager would be able to influence the other two, however. But if everything else is kept constant, sometimes the players play well despite a poor manager (i.e. Koeman and Valencia in the Copa del Rey final).

Last is probably the fans - who make a difference in a few games, but not over an entire season since titles are won on and off the pitch (i.e. preparation).

This.

Thing is, when 2 clubs have same quality of the players, or very close, then moral, manager and fans are important. In some leagues, where one or two clubs have great teams and rest of the clubs are bad, you dont need good manager at all.

This.

Thing is, when 2 clubs have same quality of the players, or very close, then moral, manager and fans are important. In some leagues, where one or two clubs have great teams and rest of the clubs are bad, you dont need good manager at all.

Look at the portuguese league. Every year you get Porto, Benfica and Sporting as the top 3 (ok... not every year... but 95% of the times).

You can have teams like Braga, or Maritimo that have a great year... with regular players but a great morale, but... by the end of the season, the top 3 are the teams with the better players.

Look at the portuguese league. Every year you get Porto, Benfica and Sporting as the top 3 (ok... not every year... but 95% of the times).

You can have teams like Braga, or Maritimo that have a great year... with regular players but a great morale, but... by the end of the season, the top 3 are the teams with the better players.

Same is in Croatia. Dinamo ZG have stupid coach, i mean he is REALLY stupid. just google kruno jurčić, he even looks stupid. But they have so much more money and better players then rest of the league, that they are winning every year for last 6-7 seasons. But when they come to Europe competition, they lose every game. ok, not in uefa cup, but in champ. league yes.

Ill say again, you can have the best players in the world, but with the wrong set up and a poor moral you will not win a thing, but you can take a set of average players and make them play well above their abilities with the right set up and moral.

It'd be interesting to manage a team like United against, let's say, Wigan, put all your best players BADLY out of position in some really weird setup, and use FMRTE to minimise your morale and maximise Wigan's. I'd wager United might still win.

Nobody is saying that extremely bad morale will result in the vastly superior team losing to a rubbish team... But overall, player quality matters most - after 38 games, the best teams in the league are at the top, and the worst teams are at the bottom. No team is "lucky forever" or "unlucky forever".

But good example how manager is important is in england. In last 20 years, 3-4 clubs had same quality of players like Man. Utd. But Alex Ferguson was the man who is most important for succes and their 10 titles in 20 years(btw, im not man. utd fan).

I am 99% sure if Liverpool had someone like Alex Ferguson, they would have 8 to 12 titles( and no, im not Liverpool fan, that was just example). Just remember Liverpools generation in 96 i think (Steve McManaman, Stan Collymore, Robbie Fowler, Jamie Redknapp, Jamie Carragher, Michael Owen..) All young and great players, but they didnt had someone like ALex to make them winners for many seasons.

WHen you have manager like Alex, you can be sure youll have Team Morale/Ambition with him. He would bring that to the team.

This thread seems to be founded on the basis that moral is the most important factor in the game currently. I very much disagree with that.

Let's take three teams:

Team A has Barcelona's players. They are not especially motivated, they are content but not delighted, and their manager doesn't make major mistakes but isn't a genius. Great players, average morale, average manager.

Team B has Stoke's players (i.e. midtable Premiership). They are extremely happy and determined to do well, and like Barcelona, their manager doesn't make major mistakes but isn't a genius. Average players, great morale/motivation, average manager.

Team C has Aston Villa's players (for the sake of argument, slightly better than Stoke's). They are happy and want to do well, but their manager is a bit of an idiot, who has been known to play players out of position and make poor decisions. Good players, good motivation/morale, awful manager.

I think that, both in real life and the game, Barcelona would win 9/10 matches against Stoke and 19/20 against Aston Villa.

Now, if Barcelona had a clown for a manager and the players were totally disillusioned, I reckon that would fall to 7/10 against Stoke and 17/20 against Aston Villa, for example.

The more astute of you will have realised that that wasn't a very good comparison. Personally, I think most tactical decisions are a case of doing the "least bad" thing. There's only so much a great manager can do that isn't about improving the players or making them feel better and more motivated. A bad manager, however, can almost totally undermine the quality of his players and their desire to do well.

So, player quality will trump motivation most of the time (though you need both to have sustained success), and manager quality is a trickier thing to quantify.

As a leader of men, I suggest that team morale is the key aspect that can make amateur players outplay professionals.

This thread seems to be founded on the basis that moral is the most important factor in the game currently. I very much disagree with that.

Let's take three teams:

Team A has Barcelona's players. They are not especially motivated, they are content but not delighted, and their manager doesn't make major mistakes but isn't a genius. Great players, average morale, average manager.

Team B has Stoke's players (i.e. midtable Premiership). They are extremely happy and determined to do well, and like Barcelona, their manager doesn't make major mistakes but isn't a genius. Average players, great morale/motivation, average manager.

Team C has Aston Villa's players (for the sake of argument, slightly better than Stoke's). They are happy and want to do well, but their manager is a bit of an idiot, who has been known to play players out of position and make poor decisions. Good players, good motivation/morale, awful manager.

I think that, both in real life and the game, Barcelona would win 9/10 matches against Stoke and 19/20 against Aston Villa.

Now, if Barcelona had a clown for a manager and the players were totally disillusioned, I reckon that would fall to 7/10 against Stoke and 17/20 against Aston Villa, for example.

The more astute of you will have realised that that wasn't a very good comparison. Personally, I think most tactical decisions are a case of doing the "least bad" thing. There's only so much a great manager can do that isn't about improving the players or making them feel better and more motivated. A bad manager, however, can almost totally undermine the quality of his players and their desire to do well.

So, player quality will trump motivation most of the time (though you need both to have sustained success), and manager quality is a trickier thing to quantify.

I dont agree that Barcelona is good example. They are too good and they can win any league except maybe england league, without manager. almost same is for R. MAdrid. This game dont have just " moral problem".

Its very easy game, because of :

1. moral problem 2. AI teams make bad mistakes in transfers and they dont look " in the future". 3. Something went wrong in away games, now its much easier to win away game and i dont have feelin i am playin away game. 4. even if i am manager of lets say Everton, ill have 2 times or more chances in match when im playin against stronger team(Man. utd, Man. City, Arsenal...). at least when i watch on key highlights.

And SCIAG ill give you example :

Team A Everton ( me) Team B Man Utd ( A. Ferguson) Team C Man. City ( R. Manchini). I dont have to say what manager characteristics they have , their players and their moral, we all know that. I dont have to say even my characteristics, because i won 4 premierships in a row ( 1 season i was third, then won 4 in a row).

SO im much better then A. Ferguson and R. Manchini? Nope. IS my squad better then Man. utd and man city? nope. Was i lucky? nope. Moral and " user must win" engine? Hmmm...

Please, dont make this another "the game is very easy" thread.

And SIAG, the thread is not founded on that basis, in fact the purpose of the thread is talk about the factors that influence sucess in football, and see if those factors are correctly reflected in FM.

For example, in FM i think that the quality of the players are a little bit underrated, and the Morale of the teams are a little bit (??) overrated.

Morale will always win out for me, look at what Hodgson did at Fulham and compare it to what he did at Liverpool. Morale and motivation are in my mind the only two differences between the two.

Also, 70% of international team management is motivation and the other 30% tactics. Player quality of course matters somewhat but in the grand scheme of things does it matter really? Plus you should never focus on things which you can't change.

Isn't this a no brainer? You can have the best staff, facilities, motivation or whatever in the world, but if your players aren't good enough you won't win much.

Isn't this a no brainer? You can have the best staff, facilities, motivation or whatever in the world, but if your players aren't good enough you won't win much.

Actually, I won BBVA with a very average Las Palmas team season 4, in front of Real Madrid and Barcelona (FM11). That shouldn't be possible.

Also, Matej said above that he is unlikely to be better than Ferguson and Mancini. Sadly, in FM, he is. The AI isn't really good enough, but I pray and hope that SI manages to improve upon that.

1) There is a correct team talk choice for each player in each situation and SAF should know what it is and employ it every game.

2) There is a correct tactical choice at any point in any game and Mourinho should know what it is and employ it every game.

3) The best managers in the game should know which player in the world would fit his team the best, what he would cost, and - if the club could afford that price - pay it, offer him the minimum contract he would possibly accept (unless other clubs have bid) and then sign him. They should not fail at this, ever.

4) There is a correct tutoring option for every youngster in the game and Arsene Wenger should know what it is and employ it for every promising youngster. He should not fail to bring up a great talent at all.

5) The best managers in the game should be programmed to succeed (at least 90% rate) at all this in all occasions. Those are excellent managers and 175+ CA and 20 in Motivation = 90% success rate in team talks, team meetings and private chats. The same goes for all other attributes that are maxed out. Less impressive managers should have a lower success rate in these aspects of the game.

Quality of players WITH tactics..

Options are insufficient, partly because it come across as a thinly veiled plea to dumb the game down so's people can just win matches with a team of expensive players.

In truth they all contribute and none of them is overly imbalanced in FM, unless of course you're doing it wrong.

Actually, I won BBVA with a very average Las Palmas team season 4, in front of Real Madrid and Barcelona (FM11). That shouldn't be possible.

Also, Matej said above that he is unlikely to be better than Ferguson and Mancini. Sadly, in FM, he is. The AI isn't really good enough, but I pray and hope that SI manages to improve upon that.

1) There is a correct team talk choice for each player in each situation and SAF should know what it is and employ it every game.

2) There is a correct tactical choice at any point in any game and Mourinho should know what it is and employ it every game.

3) The best managers in the game should know which player in the world would fit his team the best, what he would cost, and - if the club could afford that price - pay it, offer him the minimum contract he would possibly accept (unless other clubs have bid) and then sign him. They should not fail at this, ever.

4) There is a correct tutoring option for every youngster in the game and Arsene Wenger should know what it is and employ it for every promising youngster. He should not fail to bring up a great talent at all.

5) The best managers in the game should be programmed to succeed (at least 90% rate) at all this in all occasions. Those are excellent managers and 175+ CA and 20 in Motivation = 90% success rate in team talks, team meetings and private chats. The same goes for all other attributes that are maxed out. Less impressive managers should have a lower success rate in these aspects of the game.

I was talking about real football.

In FM you can beat better sides with a good formation and team talk.