Future of match engine

This year match engine is same as Fm11. It's not what I expected, but SI said that they are working on that for future r. When you look of all improvements we had from cm1 to this day, it was long and good way. I remember that many players where against 2d, then 3d match engine. Personally, I was always for improvements and I was very happy with 3d idea.

My question is what should we expect in future? Will the next match engine look something like FIFA or pes look today? It would be brilliant if we can see famous stadiums, players... What do you want to see in the future? I would like to see as realistic as they can make.

I don't really care if next match engine looks like FIFA or PES.

In a game like FM, 3D, is really one of the last thing.

Match engine must be improved and, as u said, is the same of FM11.

Match engine can't be improved if SI don't change something in TACTICS (wanna talk about tactics ??? how many years that we play with the same "engine" on tactics ??? ("rarely", "sometimes", "often", "move into channels" ... lol)).

A simulation where u are a football manager but u can't do nothing about TACTICS sounds really like a joke.

They don't have the personnel nor the experience to design anything close to the level of current arcade football games visually. And since this is only cosmetic I couldn't care less personally. I'll probably never use 3D as long as 2D is available.

What they need to improve on is the ME basics. The physics engine for a start (which is being worked on according to PaulC). Making the ball behave like a real object with weight adhering to rules of gravity. They need to change the way players react to the ball by making them all conscious of where the ball is at all times - make them act proactively instead of reactionarily. Close control needs to be an important attribute in the match engine in addition to raw physicality etc.

Basically, the ME is almost 10 years old now. Sure there have been countless improvements over the years but underneath it all it's still the same engine that came out with CM4 in 2002. It's now come to the end of its lifespan in this form, hopefully, and the significant future improvements will be taking the fundamentals to a new level. At least that's what I'd like to think.

I agree. I always wanted that I can manually move my players on tactic screen. Anywhere i want. And that I can see difference on match engine. I don't want that new tactic and match engine be more complicated, just better.

Btw, if you have player who can play on 2 positions, let's say aml and st. You ever noticed that he is not happy playin on aml, and he wants from coach to play forward? I never noticed that, but happens a lot in real life.

Fifa and Pes look nice but that is partly because their game play is canned and scripted.

If players in those games had to react in as varied a way as they must in FM they would likely need many more animations and smarter logic.

Until you can start shouting down your virtual touchline and wave your hands around (and the game detects all of this and manipulates the tactics as required), the game isn't realistic.

Something like motion detection where you can move your hands to denote tactical changes. Imagine a "stop sign" hand indicating your players should stop attacking ("stop here"), or two hands moving inwards to suggest your team plays more narrow, and so on. All of this is done on the fly - none of this tactics screen nonsense.

Also, graphics worthy of demanding such a graphics card. The ability to go into the eyes of a player and see why your tactics don't work (i.e. you tell him to pass to a playmaker, but it turns out this player can barely see the playmaker due to the marking. Replays worthy of true 3D, close up. And so on.

Sorry, just rambling here.

The match engine is the backbone and how tactics, player positions, movements and shouts etc. are calculated on the pitch. 2-D, 3-D are the visual display of the ME. You can improve the ME without any changes to the 3-D and vice versa. The main problem with 3-D is the more realistic the more resources are needed. FM is also played on low-specs computers - with major improvements to the 3-D it could become a problem for people with older or less powerful graphic cards.

The match engine is the backbone and how tactics, player positions, movements and shouts etc. are calculated on the pitch. 2-D, 3-D are the visual display of the ME. You can improve the ME without any changes to the 3-D and vice versa. The main problem with 3-D is the more realistic the more resources are needed. FM is also played on low-specs computers - with major improvements to the 3-D it could become a problem for people with older or less powerful graphic cards.

The graphics card required by FM12 is just short of the requirements of the original Crysis demo (on low), and Crysis low still looks pretty good. If anything, FM isn't using anywhere near the graphics power. It needs to be optimised quite heavily.

They don't have the personnel nor the experience to design anything close to the level of current arcade football games visually. And since this is only cosmetic I couldn't care less personally. I'll probably never use 3D as long as 2D is available.

What they need to improve on is the ME basics. The physics engine for a start (which is being worked on according to PaulC). Making the ball behave like a real object with weight adhering to rules of gravity. They need to change the way players react to the ball by making them all conscious of where the ball is at all times - make them act proactively instead of reactionarily. Close control needs to be an important attribute in the match engine in addition to raw physicality etc.

Basically' date=' the ME is almost 10 years old now. Sure there have been countless improvements over the years but underneath it all it's still the same engine that came out with CM4 in 2002. It's now come to the end of its lifespan in this form, hopefully, and the significant future improvements will be taking the fundamentals to a new level. At least that's what I'd like to think.[/quote']

Basically, this. FM has never and will never try to compete with the arcade market. The ME is the heart of the game and if PaulC is putting 2-3 years into development, I assume/hope it is in moving the physics forward, but the animation.

I hope they improve the match engine in the patch, i couldn't care less for the graphics. It's just stupid that you cant place players on the tactics screen wherever you want, and cant implement pressing like Barca or making the dmc form a 3 man defense with the 2 DC's when you have the ball.

I agree. I always wanted that I can manually move my players on tactic screen. Anywhere i want. And that I can see difference on match engine. I don't want that new tactic and match engine be more complicated, just better.

I agree with you in terms of positioning players- it's always been curious to me that no other series borrowed the concept of the TactiGrid in Krisalis' early-90's "Manchester United" series (http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/313418-manchester-united-the-double-dos-screenshot-everything-looks.png). The games themselves were so-so, but as a feature it worked brilliantly, allowing you to tweak your formation to suit an individual player's abilities- and to subtly counter your opponent's positioning in a one-on-one fashion. It seems to fit hand-in-hand with the idea of players in the same position being able to perform different roles.

As for the ME itself, it's got a lot of foibles, and perhaps there are passages of play that we have all seen too many times over the years- the goalkick being headed straight back into an attacking break, for example- but it's far from the rinse-wash-repeat style of play that FIFA can occasionally become. And there are noticeable breaks from reality, with unsavoury elements of the real game (diving, surrounding the ref etc.) present but seriously toned down- whether that's right boils down to whether you view FM as trying to be a realistic simulation of football or a rose-tinted game that's more focussed on enjoyment.

In terms of 3D graphics, I think they generally do the job fine, and are getting better with every release. I do think there is an issue, which others have mentioned previously, with regards to being asked about particular incidents in press conferences, as that does remove you from all reality- there simply is no way at present of making your own judgment as to whether a player is fouled, whether they've dived, handballs etc., because the close-up, different-angle replays you would have available in the real world don't exist, and any answer you give is likely to affect your team in some fashion.

Lawlore- i had that game! It was great! I had all football manager games from late 80s to 93. From then i just play FM(CM) because it was 2 good and gap between FM and rest football manager games is too big.

Like i said, i want that i can manually move my players. Its important. One other thing, I want to feel football when im watching 3d. Im not so crazy about great graphics, but i want that my players MOVE according to situation more like in real football. I think match engine is still far from that and i agree that they need to change match engine and make complete new one. This match engine was great when they made it, but like someone said, 10 years is long period and we really need new beginning.

P.s. Graphic dont have to be like in other games we mentioned. But it can be better then it is now.

Lawlore- i had that game! It was great! I had all football manager games from late 80s to 93. From then i just play FM(CM) because it was 2 good and gap between FM and rest football manager games is too big.

Like i said, i want that i can manually move my players. Its important. One other thing, I want to feel football when im watching 3d. Im not so crazy about great graphics, but i want that my players MOVE according to situation more like in real football. I think match engine is still far from that and i agree that they need to change match engine and make complete new one. This match engine was great when they made it, but like someone said, 10 years is long period and we really need new beginning.

P.s. Graphic dont have to be like in other games we mentioned. But it can be better then it is now.

Its not important in the slightest.

In real life a manager does not position his players on a blade of grass, he sets a general shape for the team and a general area of the field he wants them to operate in - Just like FM!

Its not important in the slightest.

In real life a manager does not position his players on a blade of grass, he sets a general shape for the team and a general area of the field he wants them to operate in - Just like FM!

It's not about exact movements - it's about being able to represent tactics by positioning.

Things like "you're playing too narrow - try going a little wider, but not quite a winger" or "drop back just a tiny bit - you're losing that attacking midfielder too often". Or "their right-sided central midfielder is playing deeper than their left-sided central midfielder - I want you to cut in and exploit that space".

Those are general guidelines that would perhaps have been somewhat represented by arrows in a past FM but cannot do any more.

Darren Fletcher played a weird left-sided side midfielder/central midfielder against Milan once (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/feb/16/milan-manchester-united-champions-league), simply denying Milan any room on the right side without attacking much. In FM, he would have been right in the middle of the M L, AM L, M C(L) and AM C (L) positions - this is very difficult to accomplish in FM but would easily be represented using a mechanism as stated above.

It's not about exact movements - it's about being able to represent tactics by positioning.

Things like "you're playing too narrow - try going a little wider, but not quite a winger" or "drop back just a tiny bit - you're losing that attacking midfielder too often". Or "their right-sided central midfielder is playing deeper than their left-sided central midfielder - I want you to cut in and exploit that space".

Those are general guidelines that would perhaps have been somewhat represented by arrows in a past FM but cannot do any more.

Darren Fletcher played a weird left-sided side midfielder/central midfielder against Milan once (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/feb/16/milan-manchester-united-champions-league), simply denying Milan any room on the right side without attacking much. In FM, he would have been right in the middle of the M L, AM L, M C(L) and AM C (L) positions - this is very difficult to accomplish in FM but would easily be represented using a mechanism as stated above.

and all those x42 are nothing to do with position, they are all to do with "Role", "Duty" and the individual instructions given.

I do think a bit of work needs to be done on positioning, particularly with central midfielders in narrow formations. It's hard to get them to play quite wide. "Hugs touchline" doesn't work for them (nor would you expect it to), and "moves into channels" doesn't work well enough. Bringing back the arrows would be an easy way to solve all these problems and give the manager a little more control over positioning.

and all those x42 are nothing to do with position, they are all to do with "Role", "Duty" and the individual instructions given.

To me, "position" represents the position of a player where he plays on average on the field. A certain position has certain characteristics. When a goalkeeper has the ball, the players naturally tend towards their "position" specified. This is what a different mechanism would allow us to control - where this "position" is.

After all, you don't just stick a left-winger as a left-full back and manipulate his role and duty to turn him into a marauding winger who dominates the whole flank. He has a "base" position which might be left-midfield or left-wing back. Position matters.

Off-central midfield diamonds can't really be represented in FM12 (in old versions of FM, those would be M C with sideways arrows - think Chelsea's 4-1-2-1-2 a while back) as the central midfielders simply aren't wide enough for "shuttlers" to work. You can abuse width but that drags the full-backs wider than usual as well which isn't what the formation really does.

Fletcher at best was an off-central midfield diamond but he played further up than that as he was half a left-winger that day too. He wasn't "shuttling" like Ramires does, but rather was there to provide defensive cover and to nullify the entire flank. So Fletcher's position was actually higher up and wider than a standard off-central midfield diamond like Ramires.

Off-central midfield diamonds can't really be represented in FM12 (in old versions of FM, those would be M C with sideways arrows - think Chelsea's 4-1-2-1-2 a while back) as the central midfielders simply aren't wide enough for "shuttlers" to work. You can abuse width but that drags the full-backs wider than usual as well which isn't what the formation really does.

Fletcher at best was an off-central midfield diamond but he played further up than that as he was half a left-winger that day too. He wasn't "shuttling" like Ramires does, but rather was there to provide defensive cover and to nullify the entire flank. So Fletcher's position was actually higher up and wider than a standard off-central midfield diamond like Ramires.

Yes, having central MCs positioned wider in narrow formations is probably the only area in terms of position that the ME currently lacks.

Yes, having central MCs positioned wider in narrow formations is probably the only area in terms of position that the ME currently lacks.

It still doesn't solve the root cause, however. I find myself sometimes wondering why I can't ask my individual players to play a little wider or more narrow, or move forward a little more. The former is very difficult to achieve as width is global, whilst the latter can be tinkered with via mentality but that affects things like who passes to who. Mentality shouldn't be used to adjust positioning but there isn't another way.

It boils down to "I want you to occupy that space over there". It's not just individual width, but the ability to position and direct your players to specific zones, especially between the lines.

I don't play FM for the grahpics.

It still doesn't solve the root cause, however. I find myself sometimes wondering why I can't ask my individual players to play a little wider or more narrow, or move forward a little more. The former is very difficult to achieve as width is global, whilst the latter can be tinkered with via mentality but that affects things like who passes to who. Mentality shouldn't be used to adjust positioning but there isn't another way.

It boils down to "I want you to occupy that space over there". It's not just individual width, but the ability to position and direct your players to specific zones, especially between the lines.

I sort of agree but this isn't really sorted by changing the positioning, its the individual instructions that need to be extended/improved.

I sort of agree but this isn't really sorted by changing the positioning, its the individual instructions that need to be extended/improved.

What advantages would additional individual instructions have over changing the positioning?

I'd've thought that changing the positioning would be more of an exact science.

There are simply some roles in real-life football that do not boil down to a specific position in Football Manager - shuttlers (between central midfield and side midfield) and narrow-ish wingers in 4-2-3-1 (where AM L/R is too wide, but AM C (L)/® is too narrow). Having exact positioning would fix all these issues.

What advantages would additional individual instructions have over changing the positioning?

I'd've thought that changing the positioning would be more of an exact science.

There are simply some roles in real-life football that do not boil down to a specific position in Football Manager - shuttlers (between central midfield and side midfield) and narrow-ish wingers in 4-2-3-1 (where AM L/R is too wide, but AM C (L)/® is too narrow). Having exact positioning would fix all these issues.

Having another vertical position as per your post above would be a possibility and has been brought up in the past but in general a lot of users focus far too much on position. Its not an exact position and was never meant to be, just like real life its just a way of communicating the area of the field you want the player to work in. After that its down to the role, individual orders & player attributes as to where the player moves.

Having another vertical position as per your post above would be a possibility and has been brought up in the past but in general a lot of users focus far too much on position. Its not an exact position and was never meant to be, just like real life its just a way of communicating the area of the field you want the player to work in. After that its down to the role, individual orders & player attributes as to where the player moves.

So what would Ramires's "shuttler" position be in a theoretical FM with individual sliders to determine the position?

My view is that it's not a central midfield position, as a shuttler provides a fair amount of width as well (Ramires, in fact, is supposed to dominate the entire right flank but not as a winger). He's not a winger either, as he plays far too narrow to be called a winger, and doesn't provide the full width given by a winger. He's not a defensive midfielder nor an attacking midfielder as he covers a lot of the pitch outside of these positions.

To me, he doesn't have a position on the current position "grid" in FM, which is why sliders can only get you so far.

There are 30 different positions to choose from in FM, I think. 5 wide 6 tall. 7 wide 8 tall or something could be an improvement. The same thing could be achived by improving the width logic in the game. Right now playing narrowly means that the players will find themselves in the centre of the pitch, ignoring the flanks. This is not how teams play narrowly in real life; they would have to push collectively to the side where the ball is, leaving a lot of space on the opposite flank. Sideways movement is very poorly implemented in this ME.

Similarly, playing wide means there will be lots of space between the defenders. So it seems that adjusting width only adjusts the distance between the players from an imaginary central line.

In order for sideways movement to be implemented correctly in the game, the ball physics would have to be tweaked because right now it would be too easy to exploit the opposite flank from a defense pushing heavily to one side as passing speed, range and accuracy are supernaturally high.

So what would Ramires's "shuttler" position be in a theoretical FM with individual sliders to determine the position?

My view is that it's not a central midfield position, as a shuttler provides a fair amount of width as well (Ramires, in fact, is supposed to dominate the entire right flank but not as a winger). He's not a winger either, as he plays far too narrow to be called a winger, and doesn't provide the full width given by a winger. He's not a defensive midfielder nor an attacking midfielder as he covers a lot of the pitch outside of these positions.

To me, he doesn't have a position on the current position "grid" in FM, which is why sliders can only get you so far.

I'm not really familiar with what Ramires's does on the field but I have an idea of the area you are talking about.

The best we have atm would probably be MR as a wide midfielder on support order coupled with perhaps narrowing the width a little. However you also need to consider how his position/role fits into the overall team tactic.

Personally I feel the way to fix this particular issue is to adjust the way the MCs play when you have two of them so they perform more like the wider MCs in a three man setup.

Until you can start shouting down your virtual touchline and wave your hands around (and the game detects all of this and manipulates the tactics as required), the game isn't realistic.

Something like motion detection where you can move your hands to denote tactical changes. Imagine a "stop sign" hand indicating your players should stop attacking ("stop here"), or two hands moving inwards to suggest your team plays more narrow, and so on. All of this is done on the fly - none of this tactics screen nonsense.

Also, graphics worthy of demanding such a graphics card. The ability to go into the eyes of a player and see why your tactics don't work (i.e. you tell him to pass to a playmaker, but it turns out this player can barely see the playmaker due to the marking. Replays worthy of true 3D, close up. And so on.

Sorry, just rambling here.

I've argued previously that the game needs some way of telling your players that you're not happy during the match. I've also imagined being able to wave my hands at them and let them know just how I feel about a poor pass or a scuffed shot, but I can't see that happening for some time yet.

I'd be happy if SI could implement some way of me being able to announce that I'm not happy with something, in a similar form to the match instructions. I keep getting told by my ass man that our passing is off today, but I can't tell them to improve anything till half time. Even at half time I can't specifically say that our passing has been attrocious. Meanwhile I'm sat at the computer swearing at the screen because my left winger just passed back to the keeper when my forward was ready to race clear. I want to tell him 'don't do that again'.

Its not important in the slightest.

In real life a manager does not position his players on a blade of grass, he sets a general shape for the team and a general area of the field he wants them to operate in - Just like FM!

This is completely incorrect or probably you're talking about managers that never wins a trophy in their career ...

and all those x42 are nothing to do with position, they are all to do with "Role", "Duty" and the individual instructions given.

I sort of agree but this isn't really sorted by changing the positioning, its the individual instructions that need to be extended/improved.

Player instuctions must be completely revised, their are part of match engine limits.

Just for example, i don't want long shots and I give to every player the instruction "rarely" but already don't know why "never" doesn't exist; and this is one of the the reason why the skizofrenic match engine (that creates match that usually ends 4-0, 1-5, 7-1.... ) do not consider a style of play without long shots (a style of play like Barcelona just to be precise ^^) and in any match there is always someone that made shoots from 40 meters ... wtf ...

BTW, personal opinion, "Passing Style", "Long Shots", "Cross Ball" and "Hold up the ball" are Team instructions (not Player ...), but every solution is possible because this area of the game is intentionally left unexplored ...

Bringing back the arrows would be an easy way to solve all these problems and give the manager a little more control over positioning.

Of course arrows can give solutions on how depth have to be the defensive phase and which movements to do more often during offensive phase; obviously these instuctions must be related to "wide play", "creative freedom" and "mentality".

This is completely incorrect or probably you're talking about managers that never wins a trophy in their career ...

Just for example, i don't want long shots and I give to every player the instruction "rarely" but already don't know why "never" doesn't exist; and this is one of the the reason why the skizofrenic match engine (that creates match that usually ends 4-0, 1-5, 7-1.... ) do not consider a style of play without long shots (a style of play like Barcelona just to be precise ^^) and in any match there is always someone that made shoots from 40 meters ... wtf ...

BTW, personal opinion, "Passing Style", "Long Shots", "Cross Ball" and "Hold up the ball" are Team instructions (not Player ...), but every solution is possible because this area of the game is intentionally left unexplored ...

Barcelona do have some long shots, didn't they score one in the Champions League final?

What if you have one player who is very good at long shots or holding up the ball- wouldn't you agree that it would be good to be able to tell him to hold up the ball or shoot more often than the rest of the side?

Agree with a few who are suggesting that the 'visual' aspect of the game is superfluous to a degree. That is better left to console football games. What could do with a spruce-up is the tactics screen though. As SCIAG said, the player arrows were a v useful feature in my opinion too. They were a nice, simple way of configuring your team as opposed to the newer system of role setting which I have never been a great fan of. I would like to see some greater flexibility in play positioning generally too rather than players on the tactic screen 'bolted' to pre-set spots on the pitch. Perhaps if they could be more loosely zoned in areas of the field with instructions (via arrows) to roam if needed.

The reason that there are no 'never' tactic instructions (IMO anyway) is that there will always be situations where taking a long shot(for example) will be the only sensible option and in those situations the player will have a long shot. If the ball drops to a player on the edge of the opponents area and his only real options are a long shot or a ball passed backwards 80 yards to the goalkeeper what should he do? You can't possibly believe that the pass back is the better option in that case?

The reason that there are no 'never' tactic instructions (IMO anyway) is that there will always be situations where taking a long shot(for example) will be the only sensible option and in those situations the player will have a long shot. If the ball drops to a player on the edge of the opponents area and his only real options are a long shot or a ball passed backwards 80 yards to the goalkeeper what should he do? You can't possibly believe that the pass back is the better option in that case?

Of course not, but the long shots slider doesn't affect situations where they have a reasonable opportunity to shoot from a good range. This is how the long shots slider should really look like:

Imbecile=========Drewling fool==========Maggot-infested zombie

1------------------------10---------------------------20

Given this more correct graphical representation, where would you place the slider?

That wouldn't be necessary if a player's decision making and long shots skill dictated when to shoot and when not to shoot, and the better those two attributes the more sensible he would be. Right now -all- the decision-making related to long shots are horribly wrong in my eyes because the slider really affects how often a player should shoot from distance when he really shouldn't and how often a player doesn't shoot when he should have.

I propose the removal of that slider in its entirety, and the function of long shots being transferred into the hands of the individual player and the degree of attacking mentality.

I've argued previously that the game needs some way of telling your players that you're not happy during the match. I've also imagined being able to wave my hands at them and let them know just how I feel about a poor pass or a scuffed shot, but I can't see that happening for some time yet.

I'd be happy if SI could implement some way of me being able to announce that I'm not happy with something, in a similar form to the match instructions. I keep getting told by my ass man that our passing is off today, but I can't tell them to improve anything till half time. Even at half time I can't specifically say that our passing has been attrocious. Meanwhile I'm sat at the computer swearing at the screen because my left winger just passed back to the keeper when my forward was ready to race clear. I want to tell him 'don't do that again'.

definite +1. We've seen managers do it time in and time out. Would love to have the option have a go at them during the 45 minutes

First of all, my approach to FM is very critical.

This game is far from the perfection and is the same soup from many years.

I think that if we talk about "difficulty", "match engine" and many other things, means that the community it's not totally happy on FM development.

BTW, personal opinion, "Passing Style", "Long Shots", "Cross Ball" and "Hold up the ball" are Team instructions (not Player ...), but every solution is possible because this area of the game is intentionally left unexplored ...

Barcelona do have some long shots, didn't they score one in the Champions League final?

What if you have one player who is very good at long shots or holding up the ball- wouldn't you agree that it would be good to be able to tell him to hold up the ball or shoot more often than the rest of the side?

What i want to say is exactly this:

"Passing Style", "Long Shots", "Cross Ball" and "Hold up the ball" are primarily Team instructions; There are more "confused" instructions for players and few superficial instuctions for the team. strange on a side, boredom on the other side, it's time to give a change to this "elementary" engine.

On Players that have many skills with good attributes like dribbling, long shoots, etc ... we can give more "creative freedom", Otherwise I really don't understand the existence of the slider "creative freedom" that probably represents some RANDOM value, as many, in this "simulation".

First and foremost i want to see the goal kick bug fixed.

I would like to see more relevance given to technical and mental attributes instead of so much relying on the physical attributes, just the fact that you can win a Champions League with a 442 is just plain wrong, how many teams do you see in Europe playing nowadays with a 442? Just pretty much every top team plays a 433/451 or 4231.

First and foremost i want to see the goal kick bug fixed.

I would like to see more relevance given to technical and mental attributes instead of so much relying on the physical attributes, just the fact that you can win a Champions League with a 442 is just plain wrong, how many teams do you see in Europe playing nowadays with a 442? Just pretty much every top team plays a 433/451 or 4231.

Agree. 442 has been way too much of a bog-standard formation in FM for a while. There seems little maneuver for innovation in team formations other than the new standard Mourinho-Chelsea-era 451.

I find 4-2-3-1 to be by far the most effective formation in game.

Man United used essentially a 4-4-2 in their last European match with Berbatov and Owen (he was quickly subbed for Hernandez or Welbeck) up front, and they're the second or third best team in Europe.

I find 4-2-3-1 to be by far the most effective formation in game.

Man United used essentially a 4-4-2 in their last European match with Berbatov and Owen (he was quickly subbed for Hernandez or Welbeck) up front, and they're the second or third best team in Europe.

Well to be fair, it was against Otelul Galati, but besides Manchester United can't think of any other top team that will use a 442 frequently on Europe.

And also what's with the AI switching to a 532 when losing? Surely that's some sort of glitch? Who would switch to three at the back when looking for a goal?

I find 4-2-3-1 to be by far the most effective formation in game.

Man United used essentially a 4-4-2 in their last European match with Berbatov and Owen (he was quickly subbed for Hernandez or Welbeck) up front, and they're the second or third best team in Europe.

Well to be fair, it was against Otelul Galati, but besides Manchester United can't think of any other top team that will use a 442 frequently on Europe.

And also what's with the AI switching to a 532 when losing? Surely that's some sort of glitch? Who would switch to three at the back when looking for a goal?

Alex Ferguson is quoted recently as saying in his 25 years at Man Utd he has never played 442.

TBH it just shows the difference between what we see as supporters from the media (papers or TV) and how managers approach a match.

Alex Ferguson is quoted recently as saying in his 25 years at Man Utd he has never played 442.

TBH it just shows the difference between what we see as supporters from the media (papers or TV) and how managers approach a match.

That's just a difference in interpretation of what a 4-4-2 is. Ferguson's made it clear over the years that he sees a 4-4-2 as two advanced strikers playing level high up the pitch - since he's always used split forwards when playing a strike partnership he views it differently. In contrast Wenger would swear blind that the Invincibles were a 4-4-2, despite the fact that Bergkamp often dropped so deep he was almost a central midfielder!

I find 4-2-3-1 to be by far the most effective formation in game.

Man United used essentially a 4-4-2 in their last European match with Berbatov and Owen (he was quickly subbed for Hernandez or Welbeck) up front, and they're the second or third best team in Europe.

I agree. There are still successful clubs who are playin 442. Like SCIAG said, Man. Utd, Newcastle ... I dont play 442 3 or 4 years. I use 4-1-2-1-2, and im doin great.

What i would like to see in the future is that i can select specific player and that i can say more things to him with just one click. Maybe some circle can show around his name, like in rpg games. Then i want at least 20 options that i can say to him. Something like:

1. Focus on their left winger, he is their best player.

2. play more 1-2 with x teammate

3. You play pretty bad, you have 15 minutes in next half to make it better.

4. Shoot more!

5. Play aggressive on their playermaker (maybe even try to provoke that player)

6. always look for free man

7. when you in front of their ( slow and not so good) defender, try few tricks

8. their Gk dont looks so confidant, try more long shoots

9. Try more through balls to x player

10. You are goin too much on their 3rd, play more conservative.

11. To some dc : you are playin to deep( so he can tell other 3 defenders that they move high more, if they play in line)

12. to some striker: stop waiting for the ball, go back to help midfield

13. again striker: take more low/ high shoots

14. striker: dont be so selfish, if you see other player in better position, assist

15. if you have yellow card, be very carefull, dont take risky tackles

16. if some player made 2 many wrong passes, tell him to play more simple passes.

17. to striker- dont dribble too much, better give back ball if you see MC free for shoot

18. to DMC- i want you to be most aggressive player on match in first 20 minutes

19. to your playmaker- calm and control ball in last few minutes of the first half, if we have lead

20. If your team is under pressure for longer time, shout to your captain that he bring bonus moral to the team.

21. to playmaker- if we play counter attack- that he can take more risky long passes to our fast forward

These are just few things i would like to see. i would like that every position have their own possibilities ( around 20 of options for every position)

there is another idea, im a bit creative tonight. Maybe you wont like this one, i found it funny and maybe a nice touch. Its part of my last post. im not so great in english, but maybe youll understand what i want to say. It would be cool if i can say 20 things to players who are close to the bench. so if RB, MR, R striker or MRC are close to me, i can tell them all 20 things. but if the players are on other side, far from me, i can say to them just some basic things they can see- ( go more forward, be calm. move more back.. etc).

If something is really important and specific, i can tell players close to me that they say that to other side( player) when they can. But maybe we can limit that just for 3 to 5 times per half. I donno, it sounds funny, but its realistic and happens in football. Or even better, if sub is coming to the pitch, i can tell that sub what i want from other players 2.

I'm primarily bothered by the fact there isn't a proper 'inside forward' position. Giving wingers/attacking midfielders that instruction doesn't do justice to the role.

I agree. There are still successful clubs who are playin 442. Like SCIAG said, Man. Utd, Newcastle ... I dont play 442 3 or 4 years. I use 4-1-2-1-2, and im doin great.

What i would like to see in the future is that i can select specific player and that i can say more things to him with just one click. Maybe some circle can show around his name, like in rpg games. Then i want at least 20 options that i can say to him. Something like:

1. Focus on their left winger, he is their best player.

2. play more 1-2 with x teammate

3. You play pretty bad, you have 15 minutes in next half to make it better.

4. Shoot more!

5. Play aggressive on their playermaker (maybe even try to provoke that player)

6. always look for free man

7. when you in front of their ( slow and not so good) defender, try few tricks

8. their Gk dont looks so confidant, try more long shoots

9. Try more through balls to x player

10. You are goin too much on their 3rd, play more conservative.

11. To some dc : you are playin to deep( so he can tell other 3 defenders that they move high more, if they play in line)

12. to some striker: stop waiting for the ball, go back to help midfield

13. again striker: take more low/ high shoots

14. striker: dont be so selfish, if you see other player in better position, assist

15. if you have yellow card, be very carefull, dont take risky tackles

16. if some player made 2 many wrong passes, tell him to play more simple passes.

17. to striker- dont dribble too much, better give back ball if you see MC free for shoot

18. to DMC- i want you to be most aggressive player on match in first 20 minutes

19. to your playmaker- calm and control ball in last few minutes of the first half, if we have lead

20. If your team is under pressure for longer time, shout to your captain that he bring bonus moral to the team.

21. to playmaker- if we play counter attack- that he can take more risky long passes to our fast forward

These are just few things i would like to see. i would like that every position have their own possibilities ( around 20 of options for every position)

I get your point but this isn't gonna be in the game anytime soon. In the main time quite a number of these things can be done by going into your tactics screen. When you adjust your tactics in the tactics screen you are indirectly instructing your players from the touchline.

1. Can be done at any time with opposition instructions (even more specific than you mentioned)

4. Go to tactics screen; Try long shots often

11. Just adjust the defense line yourself. You can imagine giving the shouts to your defender in your head

12. Go to tactics screen and reduce his mentality

15. Reduce his tackling to easy

16. passing to shorter

17. Run with ball rarely

They don't have to be called 'shouts' before you use them during matches

I think to some degree we have to accept that the match engine will never reflect real life football.

Real teams and tactics are comprised of a nearly infinite number of variables... player/manager personality, coaching influences, tactical preferences, whether a player got laid the night before a game. My own personal view is that managers cannot realistically micromanage the exact position of every player on the pitch. Real football is far too fluent and ever changing. A tactical system is drummed into the players, and specific players would be given certain instructions before each game... but as far as going "your passing length is 13"... that's ridiculous. But that's fine for me. FM12 produces the most accurate simulation of football that I have ever come across. I'm sure next years version will be a significant upgrade (or so we've heard), but it will still be based around it's current format to one degree or another, because it must.

And if a complete overhaul of the system were undertaken, something that was completely unrecognisable to all FM players... then it would be laden with bugs, something that massive has to be. It would probably take a number of versions to get it functioning satisfactorily, as it's taken for FM. I'd rather they introduce radical changes incrementally, to make sure each version produces a realistic as possible representation of football.

Wege- tnx m8 , i know that some of these things you can do in tactic screen. but i think that there should be much more, real "football talks" between manager and player(s). not just some sliders. im talking about new match engine, not for FM 12, but for FM13 maybe.

DreamsDefined- i understand your wish that new ME should come in small steps- But i think opposite. 10 years SI take small steps. Its time for big one. DOnt be affraid of lots of bugs. SUre, there would be lots of them. But if you are gamer, you should know that best games had tons of bugs. If you bring something new and great to the gaming world, players would give you time and appreciate your trying to do something great. I was never angry about bugs, if the game was great( fallout 2, for example).

+1 to 5*7 position pitch fo sho

+1 to player instructions during 45 mins as a shout - I prefer not to touch sliders in a game unless making a sub, so shouts for individual players as well as the whole team would really improve the quality of matches for me

but I would like far more influence on the formation and movement trained, someone has already touched on this; that it's not in the pre-match or w/e that tactics are decided - they're shaped and drilled in every training session, and atm that is only shallowly reflected in FM

I think it would go some way to assuaging difficulty concerns if the emphasis was placed on training tactics ahead of time - it's not the individual formations that are the be all and end all of a team's tactical familiarity (certainly not as it is now with the ability to change the role of every player on the pitch but have the same familiarity), it's the roles and relationships linking players that come first and only once these are established should the peculiarities of any formation become decisive.

ATM all we have are vague teamwork tributes and a squad harmony - for true satisfaction I'd love to see drilling the triangle pass or through ball between a couple of players or defensive responsibility or w/e leading to formation of prefered moves as a group and ultimately as a squad and then making an impact on match performance.

It would be more time consuming than at present, but FM has always been good at accomodating both casual and micro-intensive managers, so I imagine they could implement this right, maybe by just leaving it up to the coaches.

which is another idea - coaches could be selected for their preference for certain prefered movements etc

you could then drill much more specific moves and positions during the week, but still rely on a 5*6 (or 7*8) positioning grid for games, and it would be the remit of the players to implement their training, and whether they do or not would be a great reflection on your choice of staff and the worthiness of the regimes you've implemeneted

It would be good that SI can tell us what they are planning with ME. Then we can help them more with our suggestions.

It would be good that SI can tell us what they are planning with ME. Then we can help them more with our suggestions.

Yeah, I'd really like to know just how bold they plan to be

But I get the feeling that the time they have is just not enough to reach as far as might be necessary

Future of ME? I think in current state the attacking part is good actually. There are still long lasting issues present which mostly deal with player decision making like waiting for defender to cross, weird shooting from distance, strange running with ball while not spoting obvious passing options etc. But this might well be down to the fact that fm players are too much of robots...micro managment of sliders actually. Defensive ME is still not good enough for a game of FM's standard. For me the biggest problem is not in ME itself, it is I don't know how to say that, in interaction between tactics and football we get from it.

I've been experimenting recently, trying to recreate different real life football. I'm quite surprised with what I see especially as I said in attacking department. Posessional football like Barca play is easy to recreate, overlapping full-backs, tika taka passing game with high posession, Messi's role everything works fine. I'm having a llittle more problems with recreating fast, counter-attacking football with Real. Problem with defensive part of ME is that zonal, high closing down defense isn't effective as it should be. Players don't defend as a unit and don't close down the ball carrier in pairs. Plus the fact that AMs don't defend deep enough makes formations like 4231 or 433 impossible to recreate to a high level.

Tactial Wizard and changing between different Strategies is a wrong direction this game went imo. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that any team will have a couple of different strategies but tactical experience still feels like tweak between strategies untill you find something that works, unfortunatly. Not to mention that Football produced by TC lacks real life resemblance. For example Overload strategy (high mentality, quick tempo strategy) looks like counter attacking where both players and the ball bomb forward and Contain or Counter-Attack strategies make a slow, high posession style where players have no intention of scoring. So what I want to say is that it's not always the ME that confuses FM players, it's the wrong interpretation. This could easily be fixed. Just like we were having problems with setting sliders to make players behave in certain manner, after introduction of Roles and Duties, a closed system model with preset instructions understanable to everyone, so could it be done for football or style we want to employ. 'Man Utd' can't turn into 'Barca' and 'Barca' can't turn into 'Man Utd' over night. Thats what's happening every time we change from Contain to Control or any other strategy. Again I'm not saying teams don't have plan B or C, different strategies , just that the style cannot change in short period of time.

In this context I think tactical system is too complex. This isn't a bad thing for human players but it is for AI to deal with. There are too many things that need to change before and during games. I'm not really sure if real manager have that much of control over every tactical aspect as in fm. For example when using a couple of shouting instruction (and then few minutes later other 2 or 3 and so on ) is that really the same tactic that you were preparing the team? ...

sorry for poor english and long post