Italian League underrated

Hi,

i know now all of you will think i'm patriotic or nationalist. But it's really not like that. I'm the first one to say Italian Serie A lost as in quality of players. But still i think in FM 2012 is quite too much underrated(as in reputation, players CA-PA, teams) and way too much worsened compared to FM 2011. I'm not here to discuss which one is the best league in Europe, not at all.

I wanna make some examples and show you some facts, give you some profs and evidence that i'm not crazy, patriotic or talking no sense

Premise: i like to use editor very much everytime there is a new FM before starting playing, and this year i was a little bit shocked when i saw how much Serie A was worsened compared to last year. Even best players playing in it, they are not as good as they should probably be.

Let's take De Rossi. Last year he was a (snip)(referring to CA-PA), now he is (snip). Just cause he didn't have a very good last season, doesn' mean he can't play anymore or his PA so drastically decreased. Or if that was the case, it should be balanced for everyone, everywhere. Kakà after last 2 seasons should then be somewhere around 135-150, but he still has (snip) as a PA. I read somewehere from official source in the forum that PA is not only the maximum potential ability he could reach, but also the best he has as a peak in his career. So how is it possible in FM 2011 he had (snip) as starting CA and now he has (snip) as a PA? Isn't it a little conflicting and contradictory? I mean, i'm ok with both versions, to have the PA's set as the best they reached in their career as well, or to see it drastically decreased. Both it should be balanced for everyone, especially for big players in the game.

I used De Rossi as example, now please don't start discuss De Rossi, that wasn't the point. There are many many others. Pirlo to mention one. He literally changed Juventus this season. Not a coincidence they are first this year. They can really play good, he gave them quality. But in the game is CA is just (snip). Pirlo still makes a difference in the field when he is playing. Ancelotti wanted him in Chelsea when he was the manager, and trust me i'm sure if they did buy him...Chelsea would have won more. I'm not saying Lampard or Essien are bad players, very far from saying so. They are great players and i think every fan would be happy to see them playing for their team

But i also disagree when i see Arsenal(again, it's just an example, so Arsenal fans sorry if i use it like this)players with am average PA(starting 11s) better than probably any italian team. Same team who lost 8-2 to Man Utd and which is in serious troubles as far as i can see after selling Cesc and Nasri. But their midfield(example again) is by far better than any other midfield of any italian team. I seriously doubt if Arsenal this season would be playing in Serie A that they would win it. But with such CA, PA and stats balance, in the game if Arsenal would play in Serie A i guess simulating a season they would easily win it.

Sorry for a lot of examples, but it's the only way to explain i guess.

Now i will show you evidence and proofs i was talking about in the beginning.

Let's take major competition, Champions League. And let's take it from the new millenium, so since 2001(taking new millenium cause it's probably when italian teams starting to have a decrease).

So ten edition of it. Country winners:

Spain: 4(Barcelona 3, Real Madrid 1)

Italy: 3(Milan 2, Inter 1)

England: 2(Liverpool, Man Utd)

Portugal: 1(Porto)

Italy is second with 3 in 10 edition, which makes an average of almost 1 out of 3 Champions League edition. I guess is not too bad.

And let's mention also the fact that by now, moment in which i'm writing, Italian teams have the highest average points in Champions League qualyfing rounds compared to other countries. And they are playing against Barcelona(1st in Spain), Manchester City(1st in UK), Bayern Monaco(1st in Germany), Lille(France champions) and Villarreal. So not exactly against the worst teams in Europe. If then we consider also the fact in the last 3 years, the only team who could eliminate Barcelona(probably by far the best team in the world and one of the best in history) from Champions League was Inter in 2010 semi-finals...well i guess that makes Italy not so bad like it is in this version of FM.

And in all of that i didn't mention the 2006 World Cup Italy won.

We lost in coefficients cause unfortunately(and very stupid imho) for our teams and managers playing Europa League is like a waste of team, they can't wait to be eliminated from there and they even admit it sometimes. I don't know if they can't understand that it makes Italy lose a lot of coefficients, or if they just don't care. But that's the reason why we are losing coefficients, not really for competitiveness, which is still not bad (Barcelona - Milan 2-2 at Nou Camp just one month ago) despite we lost quality in our league.

So i think it would be better to judge not only basing on coefficients, but looking at facts of last years as in major competitions. That's why i hope in the next future patch containing a database update as well there will be a review of balance between teams, players CA-PA and reputations in the best european leagues and teams.

Thanks for your attention, i hope i was helpful to improve still more this fantastic serie called FM (i'm a fan since cm93)

I just looked at this year's club coefficients and Italy isn't doing too well...

England 8.125

Netherlands 6.200

Spain 6.142

Germany 6.083

Portugal 5.833

France 5.666

Cyprus 5.625

Austria 5.375

Italy 5.071

I just looked at this year's club coefficients and Italy isn't doing too well...

England 8.125

Netherlands 6.200

Spain 6.142

Germany 6.083

Portugal 5.833

France 5.666

Cyprus 5.625

Austria 5.375

Italy 5.071

Please read the whole post...it's exactly what i said, don't judge just by coefficients, read facts and evidence before posting...you know that on coefficients there is a big influence from Europe League? That's the reason why Italy is going down, cause stupidly our teams and managers neglect it and can't wait to be out of it as soon as possible = loss in coefficients. This year coefficient is exactly the result of it as italian teams were eliminated in the very early qualifying thanks to their mentality to put reserves in such useless competition(for them). But again take Champions League which is by far the most important european competition and you will see that Italy with its team made the best average points till now in this qualifying rounds. It's not my opinion, it's statistics, facts...just take a look at my previous post in a complete way please. Then judge, don't just go on wikipedia coefficients to make your evaluation

@ BayernMB That's not really his point. I agree with a lot he's saying but I also have to say Italian league was a little overrated last couple of FM-versions. But a drop of 20 PA points is not very realistic. I also agree it's not realistic that Arsenal would be the best team in the Serie A although you can't really compare those teams because their playing styles are very different.

I'm not English or Italian, so not really caring about those leagues but maybe it's interesting for the OP to make a custom league with for example the best 10 english teams and the best 10 italian teams and look to the differences after one season. English league is certainly the better league but it wouldn't be realistic if the first ten in such league would be English.

See the thing is Italian football just collapsed after the Calciopoli scandal.

The World Cup victory was the swan's song of the previous generation... Euro08, ConfCup09 and WC2010 are fairer assessments of where Italian football was and is heading.

AC Milan's success in Champions League is the club equivalent of WC2006: the triumph of experience and willpower, but also the last hooray for an aging group of players. A group who hasn't yet been completely replaced almost five years later.

And now Inter Milan is going through the same thing... without Mourinho, the main factor in the CL win.

The rest of the field has dropped in quality in a dramatic way and it's quite difficult to make a case against that.

But that's more about actual football than about Football Manager...

The only point I can agree with is the sudden drop of players' PA... If De Rossi's PA was 170 last year, there's no reason to cut it, especially since he has peaked already, so there's no risk of him suddenly becoming a World Class CM in the game.

Well in my FM game (I play with Bayern) Italy immediately took back the third CL spot, so and every year they get better coefficients than German clubs (which is total opposite to RL, where Germany has been better for last 5 years) despite Bayern (ME) reaching CL finals every year and winning almost every game - so I could say that German clubs are underrated...

But to go to CA and PA...it's possible that Italian players were overrated previous years in the eyes of researchers - the main problem here is that data is gathered on national basis and it's impossible to coordinate it on one place for different nations, so some enthusiastic researcher from Slovenia could give CA or PA of 160 to a great talent for Slovenian conditions - but a PA this high would put him on a level required to play in English, German, Italian...national squad. Maybe some researchers changed in Italy and are more critical of players there...

Italien leagues were overrated for many years. I am very glad that the Italian researchers finally have corrected that. Good job by the Italien research!

Serie A is still the third best league in the game CA-wise. Much better than the Bundesliga for example.

legend_killer82

Please dont quote CA and PA figures in the General forum as many users dont wish to know these figures that are not available in the game- thanks.

weird, since CA and PA are easily accesible with in game editor...but if that's the rule sorry, didn't know about that and i will avoid posting specific CA's and PA's

for once a very well balanced opening post and discussion.. refreshing in these parts...

and I'd have to agree in as much as the Italian league has seemingly been dropped in quality on the game.. rightfully so , but as you say.. not as much as it has been.. its a bit too drastic imo...

nevertheless, italian football will bounc back

thanks, i'm glad that some of you appreciated my post, cause in fact i really meant to open a discussion and let SI notice that they underrated it a little bit too much, without being polemic, sarcastic, sharp nor patriotic at all. I just expressed what i think with also some evidences and facts, glad to see some of you(by now), not italians as well, agreeing(even just partially) with my analysis and suggestion to fix it in future version of database

Well in my FM game (I play with Bayern) Italy immediately took back the third CL spot, so and every year they get better coefficients than German clubs (which is total opposite to RL, where Germany has been better for last 5 years) despite Bayern (ME) reaching CL finals every year and winning almost every game - so I could say that German clubs are underrated...

But to go to CA and PA...it's possible that Italian players were overrated previous years in the eyes of researchers - the main problem here is that data is gathered on national basis and it's impossible to coordinate it on one place for different nations, so some enthusiastic researcher from Slovenia could give CA or PA of 160 to a great talent for Slovenian conditions - but a PA this high would put him on a level required to play in English, German, Italian...national squad. Maybe some researchers changed in Italy and are more critical of players there...

italian clubs have done better than the germans in the Champions League for the last 50 years(except last year). the only reason why germany got the 4th CL spot from italy is become of the poor co-efficient system set in place which takes into account the europa league and italian teams dont give a sheiz about that and field 3rd string teams.

i agree that giving players such as de rossi with a PA of less than 160 is simply pathetic. specially since 1000s of crap players have the same PA.

and i agree that arsenal have been overrated in the game for ever.

The game represents the strenght of the teams AT THE MOMENT. 50 years History does count NOTHING for this. Only the last season is taken into account. And the fact is, that Italian teams were not that good then.

Fact.

We dont judge by history here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Cup_and_UEFA_Champions_League_winners

look at "By Country" and consider that Real Madrid won the first five editions; Juventus and Milan 5 times runners-up in the last 15 years.

However, this is not the point, is not a question of how many times an italian team won something in europe ...

Uefa is free to open all the "markets" they wants and their businesses are justified by coefficients ...; If we talk about football, Italy is an exausted market, and the problem (for them) is that we do not produce great numbers.

So from next year we have just 3 teams in UCL, Bundesliga 4, lol.

But, most important (^^), I really do not agree with FM on the reputation of Serie A (4 stars) when there are 4 stars and half in a league with 2 teams (LIGA BBVA ...) and 4 stars (same as Serie A) on Bundesliga (no comment).

Nothing personal against Germany and no patriotism or nationalism. It's just an (honest) opinion.

If FM have to give 4 stars to Seria A, the ranking of competitions must be more or less like this:

Premiem League 4,5 (... for many reasons, the best league in Europe)

Serie A 4

Liga 4

Bundesliga 3,5

Ligue 1 3,5

Italian Serie A may have many problems about Marketing, Organisation, Structures (Juventus FC (most popular team) has opened the first stadium, owned by an italian club, 2 months ago) ...

But Italian Serie A is always something "special" and even in such world's economic crisis, the quantity of experts, trainers and full prepared people that works in Italian Football (obvius exceptions for useless FIGC (equivalent of FA - Football Association) that doesn't really care about football ...) makes the difference. And for example Palermo buy Pastore for 5 ML then they sell him after 2 years for 45 ... Thousand examples like this; one of the most important of all the times is about a player called Zidane that was bought for 3 ML (euro) then selled for 80 ...

What it means ??? in my opinion there's a meaning about technical "competences" ...

Football experts knows very well that Serie A is the most balanced and most interesting league in europe; every match, even if there's the first one of the table Vs last one, could be a match with surprises and be sure that the final result will be not like 6-1, 8-2, 5-1, 0-4, 5-0 ...

Youre just funny.

So from next year we have just 3 teams in UCL, lol.

That sums it up well.

That sums it up well.

Youre just funny.

nice arguments ...

nice arguments ...

I stated my arguments above. Its not my fault if you cant read properly.

Italys clubs and country have had a very bad season last year.

They were rightly overtaken by the Bundesliga in the UEFA CL spots.

Thats why they were toned down and rightly so.

What was 3 or 10 years ago does not count at all.

Thats how reality should be reflected in the game.

Poor you. Sooo many suor grapes...bad losers, as always