Constructive Criticism (Of Steam)

We have all seen the divide that the Steam decision has created on the Forums even though there appears to have been a very big attempt by the powers that be to try to wipe as much of these critisms off the Forums as quickly as possible.

I for one am not buying FM12 due to the Steam decision but I do understand there are people out there that prefer to use Steam. However that is their choice, people who do not like Steam are simply not being given any other option and that is poor.

We have heard the Sega drums beating.....we must stop piracy.......Steam allows us to do this......more money in our coffers = better game for us all....etc.

Some points from Sega are valid, piracy should be battled but not via (only)the Steam option as there are alternatives out there to include all people and lets be honest anyone with a modicum of intelligence can see that piracy is not the only reason that Steam has been used.

The issues that Steam causes with a wide range of anti-virus software gives a good indication of the work that this software does behind the scenes on your PC and why intelligent anti-virus software feels this could be harmful.

By allowing Steam to do as it pleases via your anti-virus software being amended may solve a lot of peoples issues but it still proves that the application accesses and uses a variety of information from your PC that it doesn't need to just play a game.

People who willingly download Steam as their choice will not be bothered about this but again that is due to it being their choice.

Yes Sega/SI can do as they please and we will have to wait to see if they continue with this strategy for future versions and I would assume only if Sega's profits are affected would any change come about.

Personally this year based on the official responses from SI/Sega it does appear as if Sega are now really starting to dig their claws into the series and milk it for all it is worth. Maximising profits is fine, marginalising long term customers who have always been loyal to the series is not so smart.

Anyway the point of the thread is to try to get people to constructively, as best as possible, make their comments about FM12 in general and the Steam issue in particular.

Yes we have had threads about this type of issue before but they have been closed time and time again even though there are very valid arguments made within the threads. So to try to avoid a thread being closed (or giving SI a reason to close it) please comment with constructive criticism of the decision (or praise if they are your feelings) and how this has affected your ability to play the game or to even purchase it.

After all, the threads saying the game is great are never closed are they? So let people have their voice and try to understand their frustrations as pointing people to Q&A's isn't really a solution other than a marketing solution.

We have all seen the divide that the Steam decision has created on the Forums even though there appears to have been a very big attempt by the powers that be to try to wipe as much of these critisms off the Forums as quickly as possible.

I for one am not buying FM12 due to the Steam decision but I do understand there are people out there that prefer to use Steam. However that is their choice, people who do not like Steam are simply not being given any other option and that is poor.

We have heard the Sega drums beating.....we must stop piracy.......Steam allows us to do this......more money in our coffers = better game for us all....etc.

Some points from Sega are valid, piracy should be battled but not via (only)the Steam option as there are alternatives out there to include all people and lets be honest anyone with a modicum of intelligence can see that piracy is not the only reason that Steam has been used.

Piracy cannot be stopped. Anti Piracy measures only effect the legitimate consumers because Pirates just work around the software. "Must be connected to the internet to play this game at all times", Pirate just cracks that feature and everyone can play it offline. Steam is easier for updates, distribution and helps expand the community.

The issues that Steam causes with a wide range of anti-virus software gives a good indication of the work that this software does behind the scenes on your PC and why intelligent anti-virus software feels this could be harmful.

By allowing Steam to do as it pleases via your anti-virus software being amended may solve a lot of peoples issues but it still proves that the application accesses and uses a variety of information from your PC that it doesn't need to just play a game.

People who willingly download Steam as their choice will not be bothered about this but again that is due to it being their choice.

Im sorry but you clearly have very little understanding of:

Steam Software

Anti Virus Software

Viruses and Trojans in general.

I advise you to educate yourself in these before raising such an issue in the future.

Yes Sega/SI can do as they please and we will have to wait to see if they continue with this strategy for future versions and I would assume only if Sega's profits are affected would any change come about.

Profits increase by use of steam due to ease of distribution and advertising.

Personally this year based on the official responses from SI/Sega it does appear as if Sega are now really starting to dig their claws into the series and milk it for all it is worth. Maximising profits is fine, marginalising long term customers who have always been loyal to the series is not so smart.

Anyway the point of the thread is to try to get people to constructively, as best as possible, make their comments about FM12 in general and the Steam issue in particular.

Yes we have had threads about this type of issue before but they have been closed time and time again even though there are very valid arguments made within the threads. So to try to avoid a thread being closed (or giving SI a reason to close it) please comment with constructive criticism of the decision (or praise if they are your feelings) and how this has affected your ability to play the game or to even purchase it.

After all, the threads saying the game is great are never closed are they? So let people have their voice and try to understand their frustrations as pointing people to Q&A's isn't really a solution other than a marketing solution.

Wild, the subject was discussed openly to the n-th degree before you joined the Forum - there is little to add now the game is released. Maybe the whole issue will be re-addressed for FM13 but as one of the anti-Steam "brigade" back in September I now have to admit Steam download & activation was faultless & enjoyable for me (buying from the shop was a "bugged" excercise for me last year!). I appreciate some are having problems and I feel for them, also the lack of a non-web connection activation method is, I believe, inexcusable. Please read the earlier DRM thread, you will see SI did let us have our say.

We have all seen the divide that the Steam decision has created on the Forums even though there appears to have been a very big attempt by the powers that be to try to wipe as much of these critisms off the Forums as quickly as possible.

I for one am not buying FM12 due to the Steam decision but I do understand there are people out there that prefer to use Steam. However that is their choice, people who do not like Steam are simply not being given any other option and that is poor.

We have heard the Sega drums beating.....we must stop piracy.......Steam allows us to do this......more money in our coffers = better game for us all....etc.

Some points from Sega are valid, piracy should be battled but not via (only)the Steam option as there are alternatives out there to include all people and lets be honest anyone with a modicum of intelligence can see that piracy is not the only reason that Steam has been used.

People use a quite a lot this, "there are alternatives" people should also say what are these alternatives? And yes, piracy isn't the only thing Steam is needed to play this game, but it is one reason.

I have never had a single problem with Steam and I have installed it on five different computers; two at home, two at work and one at my parent's place. Four of those were rather ancient at the time (and even more now), and a variety of different anti-virus software were in use on each of them.

Still, FM has run on them all, and even though rather slowly never a problem occured. Not because of Steam anyway.

The criticism should be of those not being able to set up a system that allows the programs they want to use to be run, not of SI or Steam. If you are incapable of doing this, don't use a computer.

People use a quite a lot this, "there are alternatives" people should also say what are these alternatives? And yes, piracy isn't the only thing Steam is needed to play this game, but it is one reason.

Activision DRM! Where if you disconnect from the internet your game closes!

EA DRM! Where Origin installs on your computer and repeatedly reports back everything you downloading to EA (since been amended to send back less and keep it anonymous)

The 2 other most popular alernatives. Steam doesnt seem so bad now eh?

Activision DRM! Where if you disconnect from the internet your game closes!

EA DRM! Where Origin installs on your computer and repeatedly reports back everything you downloading to EA (since been amended to send back less and keep it anonymous)

The 2 other most popular alernatives. Steam doesnt seem so bad now eh?

Activision DRM is a joke in the first place, so that clearly can't be an option.

EA's origin i think is a much better than activisions, but it functions pretty much like Steam.

wild2475, I fear you are fighting a losing battle, this is bound to be closed, sadly.

Activision DRM is a joke in the first place, so that clearly can't be an option.

EA's origin i think is a much better than activisions, but it functions pretty much like Steam.

Not really, Valve doesnt collect information about what games you are installing onto your system outside of steam. If you read the origin EULA you will find a few sneaky things in there.

I think Football Manager has a large fan base who just arent really "gamers" so they are a bit out of touch with how things are progressing in the gaming industry and how serial keys have long been made void. Which is fine, but steam really is the least intrusive option available to combat piracy at the present time and probably will be for the foreseeable future.

Not really, Valve doesnt collect information about what games you are installing onto your system outside of steam. If you read the origin EULA you will find a few sneaky things in there.

I think Football Manager has a large fan base who just arent really "gamers" so they are a bit out of touch with how things are progressing in the gaming industry and how serial keys have long been made void. Which is fine, but steam really is the least intrusive option available to combat piracy at the present time and probably will be for the foreseeable future.

Yeah I am aware that there are few questionable details about Origin, but on the basis it works like Steam, online store, friends list etc.

So Origin tries to copy Steam but fails utterly, whereas Activision DRM isn't really trying to do anything than get people to lose their patience.

wild2475, I fear you are fighting a losing battle, this is bound to be closed, sadly.

Funnily enough it's this kind of post that gets these threads closed, not the OP.

Just some things to note about Steam and their creators Valve

Steam was created by Games company Valve (who brought us counter strike, team fortress, half life and portal).

They are a surprisingly small games development company.

They maintained Team Fortress 2 for 4 years for free releasing completely free map packs and weapon add ons.

They have since made team fortress completely free and added an in game store to buy virtual items but all items in the store can be gotten in game for free, it just requires time.

They sell community made items on said store and give a % of the money to the original creators.

Every few months Valve will do a steam sale, where various games will be sold at huge discounts, sometimes with even as much as 75% off marked price, for a limited time.

Games are automatically updated.

Games purchased are available to download unlimited times on as many computers as you want but can only be accessed through the steam account purchased on.

Non steam games can be added to your steam library so every game you own can be launched through this one little program.

Surely thats enough to ease anyones concerns towards steam!

I have to say that I was initially annoyed and put off by having to download steam. After the FM2009 fiasco I was not looking forward to it. After being let down by amazon for my pre order, I decided that as I had to download steam I'd just download it straight from them too. And honestly, I was impressed. Everything worked, was easy to function and understand and my laptop is running FM2012 how I'd expect it too!

I do believe that the steam thing has been blown way out of proportion.

There are those that have had issues though, and I can't speak for them. But I will say that SI seem to have been well on the case in trying to help out as many people as possible to resolve their individual issues. And that's the point for me. There is nothing wrong with steam. It's free, it works and it's easy to use. Any issues people are having with steam are seemingly caused by conflicting programmes and software from the users machine. SI and steam can't forsee everyone's system settings and software.

I remember plenty of times in the past when I bought a new champ man and it wouldn't work with my pc due to my machine not being good enough. Is this really much different?!

Likewise we went with Steam for piracy, that's been stated over and over again. There's no conspiracy about extra profit and screwing over loyal customers.

No need to bluff this one, Neil... There is no business sense in inconveniencing a portion of your customers for no profit. There has to be a business reason behind everything. You expect to make larger profits through less day-zero piracy.

Reducing the piracy rate has about as much effect as reducing the number of ginger-haired developers. It's a meaningless KPI. What matters is your bottom line.

Everything a business does aims to increase its profits, either by increasing sales or reducing costs. There's no need to hide behind the "no conspiracy about extra profit" line.

Someone mentioned alternatives. The alternatives should be key-based activation (i.e. buy DVD, enter key, play game) and other third-party online distributors such as Direct2Drive. It's the removal of choice those annoyed are most annoyed about. Whether Steam is worse or not is just another debate. SI removing choice will harm consumers in the long run.

Those complaining about these issues are defending the rights you deserve too. Nobody has to defend Steam, or SI, or Sega. They are big boys now. They can defend themselves. All you have to do is defend your rights. And one of those is choice.

Someone mentioned alternatives. The alternatives should be key-based activation (i.e. buy DVD, enter key, play game) and other third-party online distributors such as Direct2Drive. It's the removal of choice those annoyed are most annoyed about. Whether Steam is worse or not is just another debate. SI removing choice will harm consumers in the long run.

I think that key based activation is pretty much been cracked a long time ago, since it was on FM10 and FM11. The fact that FM12 should be activated on several different third-party programs, really doesn't make the 'problem' go away.

And i think i have a choice too to defend things i think should be defended.

Key based requires the .exe to be on the DVD, that means as soon as the first DVD goes into the supply chain it's vulnerable.

Distribution has to start long before release day.

Funnily enough it's this kind of post that gets these threads closed, not the OP.

Reverse psychology?

it's done exactly what we set out to do with it.

I think that is the ONLY important thing with this Steam activation trial. It has done exactly what SI said it would do, it has DELAYED piracy of their game this year, i have yet to find a reliable torrent of the game anywhere online, take everything else to the side and that is a fantastic achievement. Now look at the fact that for the best part (mac users aside) it has been pretty pain free, no where near as many issues as 09.

Of course it's about the bottom line. What Neil was referring to is the oft-given allegation that we're all just money-grabbing bandits and that's not the case. From SI's perspective certainly, the more money that the game makes, the more is invested back into the studio, meaning more developers, better tools and an improved game at the end of it. Here at SI, we really are just fans of the game and of football, trying to make as good a game as we can.

I'm not going to get into the does Piracy affect the bottom line argument here, because I've read your (x42bn6's) thoughts a few times on this forum and suffice to say that we, and the experts who SEGA employ, disagree with you on that front. I'm not saying you're wrong, many other experts agree with your perspective, but we're all entitled to our opinions and ours is that piracy affects sales, and by reducing piracy, especially pre-release, we'll increase sales.

The problem with adding the extra alternatives you suggest is that they're all much easier to crack than the options we've chosen this year. The fight against piracy is only as strong as the weakest link in our defence. We believe that the methods we've chosen this year offer 100% pre-release protection (which has been proved) and a damned good effort after that (which, as it hasn't been cracked yet, also looks to be working). If we had offered other options as well, there's no guarantee we would have had the same successes. SEGA's experts advised that other options available just wouldn't have been as good so the chances are we might well have been cracked by now if we had.

As you say though, it's all measured by the bottom line, so if we're wrong and the extra protection has a negative effect this year as many have suggested, then we'll obviously look at things again. We're doing ok in the charts so far though

Reverse psychology?

Clever eh? now shut up, you're off topic:p

Well from a personal perspective I'm get pretty hacked off reading every year a game that I've worked really bloody hard on is being played by people who claim to 'love it' but yet don't feel compelled to pay a single penny towards it.

Of course it's frustrating. But the fact is that SI own the code you write, and that pirates don't give you any money (assuming pirates don't buy, which isn't true). So your pay cheque doesn't suffer.

Remember, pirates may still buy your software in the end, be it this version or a future version.

You should be concerned about your customers - customers have have - not pirates. Customers love you - you should be making them happy. Making pirates unhappy will always have an unfortunate side-effect that it will harm some of your customers.

So forget bottom line and profits - for me it's a matter of principal that hackers/pirates etc shouldn't be allowed to or able to play the game before legitimate customers.

What about post-day one piracy? Have you not thought that some customers will be annoyed enough that it feels like it is actually less effort to pirate it, even if it's not on a release date?

You can do very little about piracy as a whole - piracy will always exist. What you can do is grow your consumer base and keep your current consumer base happy. As a fellow developer, I want to make my customers happy, not make non-customers unhappy. After all, one day, my software is going to get pirated anyway, so they will eventually be happy.

Do you really care about pirates more than customers?

Maybe one day you can stamp out piracy fully - I just wonder at what this will cost you in terms of customers. You know, people who actually love your software.

To add to that I support what Neil has said. It's bloody frustrating to work hard on something all year only to have people steal it. For us, that's as good a reason to stop piracy as any

Going back to the OP's points re the game and steam. I use Steam, late convert (2 years ago) but never looked back. Plenty on here have outlined the positives. Therefore for me not an issue.

As for forcing people and giving no alternative for buying the game! Well unfortunatley, that seems to be the nature of the beast. Apple is one of the worse offenders re buying their products and the control they have over their products. My wife recently got a Macpro, and whilst it is a good laptop, unless you got a apple router, boy does it play up. Sega will do what it wants as it now owns the game. Hopefully they will listen to a certain extent to the previous owners who in turn listen to their fans but they will utlimately decide how the game will be distributed. It is a sad fact of life that there are a number of people out there who spoil life for most of us in one way or another e.g. games and piracy (will leave the other examples for the political forums!), hence the move to Steam which I fully understand in these circumstances.

As for the game, I think that this update is just that - an update, some nice touches and additions but not a full priced game for me. However, the business, that is the gaming industry, will not let this be an expansion as it has beem worked on for a long period and costs must be recuperated and profits made for numerous reasons plus further iterations.

I will wait until Steam have another sale and reduce the cost, £29.99 is too much for some bells and whistles. Here is the usual proviso "I have bought every edition of the series in whatever guise it was called" but this time I am exercising my option to wait until it is cheaper.

I have played the demo and thought that is was excellent but it did not quite excite me enough to rush out and order the full version.

Even the thought of team fortress scarves and goodies could not entice me.

K

Just some things to note about Steam and their creators Valve

Steam was created by Games company Valve (who brought us counter strike, team fortress, half life and portal).

They are a surprisingly small games development company.

They maintained Team Fortress 2 for 4 years for free releasing completely free map packs and weapon add ons.

They have since made team fortress completely free and added an in game store to buy virtual items but all items in the store can be gotten in game for free, it just requires time.

They sell community made items on said store and give a % of the money to the original creators.

Every few months Valve will do a steam sale, where various games will be sold at huge discounts, sometimes with even as much as 75% off marked price, for a limited time.

Games are automatically updated.

Games purchased are available to download unlimited times on as many computers as you want but can only be accessed through the steam account purchased on.

Non steam games can be added to your steam library so every game you own can be launched through this one little program.

Surely thats enough to ease anyones concerns towards steam!

forgetting everything else and just commenting on this particular post re: Steam..

I have no need or desire for any of that, none whatsoever. I have 2 games installed on my computer bar the Windows rubbish, FM09 and FM11 and that's it. I used to also play a browser-based game when it was fun and I play online poker but other than that my computer is a work tool not a plaything. My time for playing games is ever limited and decreasing all the time, why on earth would I need any of the listed "benefits" never mind all of them!

Steam may be seen as great by those of us who have time to play lots of games and the money to buy them, I work hard to earn the few hours a week I get playing FM, I simply don't want to play anything else...

Key based requires the .exe to be on the DVD, that means as soon as the first DVD goes into the supply chain it's vulnerable.

Distribution has to start long before release day.

But surely technology is more advanced now that with the CD Key/Serial that at a certain time you have to "update" the game at midnight from SI own website to "activate" that serial key to play the game? Ive got Steam (love it) and FM12 (Love it) so there is no problems for me using steam, im just trying to get involved and think of ways to both help SI and its customers with other viable options.

suffice to say that we, and the experts who SEGA employ, disagree with you on that front.

Of course, it's not politically a good idea to accept piracy... But then again, the media industries have always taken that front... http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110721/04092915191/industry-suppressed-report-showing-users-shuttered-pirate-site-probably-helped-movie-industry.shtml

To add to that I support what Neil has said. It's bloody frustrating to work hard on something all year only to have people steal it. For us, that's as good a reason to stop piracy as any

Piracy is not theft. A pirate could buy the product in the end. A pirate might show off the game to friends, and one of those friends might buy even if the original pirate doesn't. A pirate could download it multiple times, inflating the figures. A pirate might not have even bought the software for £0.01, so you would never have made money off that pirate anyway (if piracy didn't exist, that person simply wouldn't buy it anyway).

Because piracy has a (possibly slim) chance of growing your customer base, killing piracy for the sake of killing piracy is a bad idea. Converting pirates, however, is a good idea and it is how it should be done.

forgetting everything else and just commenting on this particular post re: Steam..

I have no need or desire for any of that, none whatsoever. I have 2 games installed on my computer bar the Windows rubbish, FM09 and FM11 and that's it. I used to also play a browser-based game when it was fun and I play online poker but other than that my computer is a work tool not a plaything. My time for playing games is ever limited and decreasing all the time, why on earth would I need any of the listed "benefits" never mind all of them!

Steam may be seen as great by those of us who have time to play lots of games and the money to buy them, I work hard to earn the few hours a week I get playing FM, I simply don't want to play anything else...

Well if your problem is time.

Pre download via steam before release day.

Game ready to go on release day.

You have just saved yourself a trip to the store on release day!

Also you will never have to find your disc to put it in the drive.

Never have to replace the disc if it gets damaged or scratched.

In all honesty I just dont see how anyone can associate negatives to steam. The only inconvenience is logging on once and activating.

Piracy is not theft. Interesting point of view!

I have followed most of your debates with interest but this statement does ring a tad hollow!

Regardless of what the pirate will do with the product, "show it off and so on" it is still a stolen product in the first instance.

Piracy is not theft. A pirate could buy the product in the end. A pirate might show off the game to friends, and one of those friends might buy even if the original pirate doesn't. A pirate could download it multiple times, inflating the figures. A pirate might not have even bought the software for £0.01, so you would never have made money off that pirate anyway (if piracy didn't exist, that person simply wouldn't buy it anyway).

Because piracy has a (possibly slim) chance of growing your customer base, killing piracy for the sake of killing piracy is a bad idea. Converting pirates, however, is a good idea and it is how it should be done.

You're talking semantics but I still think it is theft.

I could go into a shop and steal a T-Shirt that I wouldn't have bought otherwise and the same still applies. My friends could see my new cool (but stolen) T-Shirt and want one for themselves and go and buy it, does that negate from the fact that I stole it to begin with?

We'd much rather no-one pirated the game and that people found out about the game on the back of our marketing campaigns and word of mouth from people who actually bought it.

Piracy is not theft. A pirate could buy the product in the end. A pirate might show off the game to friends, and one of those friends might buy even if the original pirate doesn't. A pirate could download it multiple times, inflating the figures. A pirate might not have even bought the software for £0.01, so you would never have made money off that pirate anyway (if piracy didn't exist, that person simply wouldn't buy it anyway).

Because piracy has a (possibly slim) chance of growing your customer base, killing piracy for the sake of killing piracy is a bad idea. Converting pirates, however, is a good idea and it is how it should be done.

In that case SI should put the game for free of charge and put an option paying for it.

This is getting so old. There was a 42 page topic about this when it was announced, and everyone had their chance to chip in on the debate. In the end it started to go in circles, as in the end it comes to to subjective opinions and feelings.

SI are in every right to do things as they want in order to combat the threats they see for them as a company. A major one of these is piracy and thus they opted for STEAM as a way of securing their product. You might not like it, but it their decision to make not ours.

Also from what I see the game is yet to be cracked, meaning anyone who would wan tto play the game until now will have had to buy it. I think this is pretty decent considering the times.

You're talking semantics but I still think it is theft.

I could go into a shop and steal a T-Shirt that I wouldn't have bought otherwise and the same still applies. My friends could see my new cool (but stolen) T-Shirt and want one for themselves and go and buy it, does that negate from the fact that I stole it to begin with?

We'd much rather no-one pirated the game and that people found out about the game on the back of our marketing campaigns and word of mouth from people who actually bought it.

As you stole the T-Shirt you removed it from the store, piracy does not do this, so is not theft. Dishonest yes, but not theft.

Another company tried that. That company no longer produce that game any more.

Lol it did that and your right you now have no competition!!

Another company tried that. That company no longer produce that game any more.

Isn't that what happened to hockey manager series if i remember correctly.

As you stole the T-Shirt you removed it from the store, piracy does not do this, so is not theft. Dishonest yes, but not theft.

So you steal a ship from the high seas but as you have not taken it out of the water it is not theft of that ship?

However, some piracy can be for the good of the people!

I'm glad someone has created a constructive thread as I've had so many issues with Steam over the last few days (lost save data, FM not starting numerous times, and I've just witnessed a total blackout mid-match that rendered my Mac useless until I did a manual reboot - something I despise doing) that I've decided if SI force Steam activation again I won't buy any more in the series.

I used Steam before FM12, for Audiosurf when I had a Windows PC and for Portal on my Mac. I never had any real issues, just the occasional time when the program wouldn't open for some reason. I was never hugely against it, but it's undeniably unstable and extremely erratic. However, with games like the aforementioned Audiosurf and Portal, you immerse yourself and don't need to/have time to switch between multiple programmes. With FM, the loading times make flicking an inevitability. However, on a Mac, this is an incredibly cumbersome task, almost impossible for two reasons:

a) The game isn't properly made for Macs. Windowed mode doesn't fit properly, and even with the package contents workaround the game slows right down for a reason I can't fathom, and the ME becomes extremely jumpy.

b) Because of the processing power and RAM that Steam/FM eat up, the Mac can't even perform a simple task like scroll between programs using cmd + tab when in full-screen mode (how I like to play the game). Well, it can if the game isn't loading anything at that particular moment, but it will auto-revert back to windowed mode etc etc. All very cumbersome.

My Macbook Pro simply can't handle Steam and FM running at the same time, which is of course a requirement for the game. It's not inferior technology, I bought the Mac less than 3 months ago and it has a decent processor (albeit not a super one), but my 'Free Memory' app shows that Steam is a massive resource-eater, by far the biggest of any application or program on the system. Right now, with Steam and FM closed, my Mac has 2GB of free memory, despite having Chrome, Mail, and iTunes open. That's half of the total memory. Having iTunes and FM open simultaneously is a distant (Windows) dream thanks to Steam's resource-eating, but even when the only applications I have running are FM and Steam, my free memory goes right down to about 300MB, and during a match has gone to as low as 23MB - dangerously low as anyone who has an iota of knowledge about computers will know.

The Mac's system requirements easily match the requirements for FM10 + FM11, I can't check 12 because I bought the game as a download. I don't imagine they'd be too much different though. Either the system requirements are wrong, or you haven't taken into account just how much of a resource-eater Steam is.

I'm not a hater of Steam, but it certainly does not go well with Football Manager. Please SI, please, do not force activation through Steam again. And if you do, please make it so that it is just literally an activation check and we don't require both programs to be open at the same time, because that is what is killing the game for me really. And it's a shame, because it's a great game.

Also who cares if piracy is the same as theft or not. Its acquiring something without paying for it, and its illegal. End of story.

Piracy is not theft. Interesting point of view!

I have followed most of your debates with interest but this statement does ring a tad hollow!

Regardless of what the pirate will do with the product, "show it off and so on" it is still a stolen product in the first instance.

It is a pirated, not stolen, product. Theft implies a financial loss. However, since the cost of a product that can be duplicated infinitely is £0, it is not a loss.

Another way to think about it is that if piracy didn't exist, then there is no guarantee that that person (who would have pirated it if piracy did exist) would buy the product. Hence it is not a financial loss, since you haven't necessarily lost a sale (as you might never have had one to begin with).

You're talking semantics but I still think it is theft.

I could go into a shop and steal a T-Shirt that I wouldn't have bought otherwise and the same still applies. My friends could see my new cool (but stolen) T-Shirt and want one for themselves and go and buy it, does that negate from the fact that I stole it to begin with?

If you went out and stole a tee-shirt, the shop wouldn't be able to sell that tee-shirt. It's gone.

If someone copies the game DVD, the physical DVD still exists.

It's not a lost sale for the reasons above this quote.

Is it a crime? Yes. Is it theft? No. Theft implies an accounting financial loss

We'd much rather no-one pirated the game and that people found out about the game on the back of our marketing campaigns and word of mouth from people who actually bought it.

Tough - piracy exists. Welcome back to reality.

P2P technology is by far the most efficient way of spreading word-of-mouth - you can't really compete with that.

In that case SI should put the game for free of charge and put an option paying for it.

I'm not sure how that logically follows. Studies show that people are willing to pay for something - after all, this is why SI make money, after all. It doesn't imply that things should be free with an option to pay.

Theft does not require a financial loss, if I remove a family photograph from your house have I committed theft in the eyes of the law despite the fact that the photograph has no financial value?

Piracy is a modern form of theft & any argument to the contrary is merely a play on words.

There was a large Earthquake in Eastern Turkey on Sunday. It killed and injured thousands of people. The Van region destoyed!

Wait a minute... did somebody say you have to download Steam to play Football manager!? THE SWINES!!!! What is happening to this world!!

As you stole the T-Shirt you removed it from the store, piracy does not do this, so is not theft. Dishonest yes, but not theft.

The T-shirt still took time, money and effort to produce. So does Football Manager. Pirating the game is taking something that people have put effort into and giving nothing back in return. So does stealing a T-Shirt.

There are differences as well as those similarities yes, as you mention, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it's illegal and morally wrong.

There are enough similarities though that I feel using the word "stolen" is justified. Feel free to disagree on the semantics if you like, but that's not really the point of this is it

x42bn6 you seem so consumed with a hatred of Steam that you're losing yourself in the argument. Rather than arguing for the rights on the consumer, you're now arguing for the rights of the pirate.

Speaking as a consumer, why should I have to pay £20 to fund this game and future devlopment of the game (as well as a profit margin admittedly), whilst a pirate pays no contribution into the pot. It isn't just SI who are losing out on piracy, it's the consumer picking up the tab too.

I like steam. Never once had a problem with it. been using it since fm 10. I have anti-virus protection, never been an issue with it.

I've also got a few other games on it now thanks to having it from getting FM. Saves me from going to the shop, though the woman thinks it might lead me to compulsive game buying. NEVER! ....

to me, seems like it just gives the pirates something to complain about. just my opinion, not worth anything i'm certain.

about piracy not being theft.... best joke i've heard all day! thanks for that

Well if your problem is time.

Pre download via steam before release day.

Game ready to go on release day.

You have just saved yourself a trip to the store on release day!

Also you will never have to find your disc to put it in the drive.

Never have to replace the disc if it gets damaged or scratched.

In all honesty I just dont see how anyone can associate negatives to steam. The only inconvenience is logging on once and activating.

I started the post with a caveat...

forgetting everything else and just commenting on this particular post re: Steam.

Time is NOT my only issue, I was merely demonstrating why the listed benefits were about as much use to me as a lead parachute...

Thanks to all for your comments and feedback.

STEAM is a mature platform and one that we feel is the best out there that meets our business needs and helps solve and tackle many problems that have previously given us a lot of headaches in the past, and it's as simple as that really.

That does not mean it solves all of our problems, but it significantly helps us improve our production pipelines, as well as provide the best method of update distribution and installation out there. This has typically been an area that's caused us a lot of problems over the years and the benefits of this aspect alone are fantastic for all.

From a development perspective, it gives us a greater opportunity to understand the type of hardware our customers are using too, which in turn helps us make more informed technical decisions on the requirements needed to run our games, and the direction of some features. It also allows us to deliver specific hardware optimisations based on what our customers have in order to improve performance.

There are so many benefits for us, but we still didn't take the decision lightly and it's still too early to know what we will do in the future, or whether we will extend to using alternative services out there. We have built up a great working relationship with Valve over the years, but as with every release, we will perform a post-mortem and analyse how it's gone, what we want to improve or change going forward, and whether it's met our expectations.