Positioning Issue in regards to Goalkeepers

Hey guys,

This has been mentioned in the bugs forum but.. It is more than a bug. It's like you can't play any further than the first season 'realistically'.

Goalkeepers don't get trained in their positioning by default.

You can edit your own schedule but AI - aka the rest of the clubs' keepers - keep on retarding on their positioning.

This is more serious a bug than any other bug.... How can fm12 gone Gold with this crap?

Hot fix asap please..

Thank you, SI.

That is the good thing about Steam, if there is a problem it should be fixed very very quickly and the update sent out.

to be fair, this issue was only flagged a couple of days ago wasn't it? took all of us playing the demo for a number of weeks to find it.

Yeah this needs to be fixed pretty quickly.

to be fair, this issue was only flagged a couple of days ago wasn't it? took all of us playing the demo for a number of weeks to find it.

Most people still havent noticed it. But they are aware of it, hopefully there will be a quick turnaround

Yeah this needs to be fixed pretty quickly.

Do you know if there is a way of deleting the default schedules that the AI use? Because then one could replace them with their own as a temporary work around till a fix

You should have an option to coach goalkeepers via coaches in training in specifically shot stoppong and handling. You just put goal keepers into the Goalkeeping training slot. You can see how they improve in these attributes?

I think positioning however has been moved from a Goalkeeper activity to outfield player only. There is a post for this somewhere

Yeah, I noticed the bug wednesday or thursday before launch, so they had next to no time to fix it.

Positioning was moved from tactics to defending, and goalkeepers have no defending training, hence why they don't train positioning.

As far as I know there is no way of deleting the default schedules.

Anyway Lucas stated in the bug thread that it wasn't just an easy fix, so it might take some time

positioning was moved from tactics to defending, and goalkeepers have no defending training, hence why they don't train positioning.

As far as I know there is no way of deleting the default schedules.

Anyway Lucas stated in the bug thread that it wasn't just an easy fix, so it might take some time

ah damn, there goes the workaround. Not a problem for me, since i just make a custom training schedule, but for the AI

Will putting my keepers on positioning individual training focus be enough for stopping the decline in the attribute?

Aldo, after reading this thread i checked my keepers, and each of them has gone down over half a point in just 2 months. Obviously that's just stupid as it's not like you forget how to position yourself even if you don't focus on it in training. You still play football, you still have to position yourself all the time in training and matches and therefore still "train" positioning all the time. If one of your GK in the game seriously injures himself and don't see a ball in a year he still wouldn't decline this fast. It's obviously a bug, but most of all it's just stupid.

If you put them on positioning individual training it stops the decline.

I have had ter Stegen on positioning for half a season to get it up, now I'm gonna throw him on handling until positioning is back at where it started:)

Will putting my keepers on positioning individual training focus be enough for stopping the decline in the attribute?

Aldo, after reading this thread i checked my keepers, and each of them has gone down over half a point in just 2 months. Obviously that's just stupid as it's not like you forget how to position yourself even if you don't focus on it in training. You still play football, you still have to position yourself all the time in training and matches and therefore still "train" positioning all the time. If one of your GK in the game seriously injures himself and don't see a ball in a year he still wouldn't decline this fast. It's obviously a bug, but most of all it's just stupid.

But.. dude.. if you have individual training just for your GK - and this is what makes the game unplayable - what about keepers of the AI? Them, are all training their GKs with default schedule with the Positioning out of their training schedule. Only your keeper will maintain his positioning.

Could the fix be something like this;

Though the xml language, pull up the value of positioning, assign it a colour, add the integar value into root default schedule of GK??

I'm probably going nuts. argh.

Yeah, I noticed the bug wednesday or thursday before launch, so they had next to no time to fix it.

Positioning was moved from tactics to defending, and goalkeepers have no defending training, hence why they don't train positioning.

As far as I know there is no way of deleting the default schedules.

Anyway Lucas stated in the bug thread that it wasn't just an easy fix, so it might take some time

I must say Manden is the one who had highlighted this problem (even though it was in demo already). Brilliant spot Manden.

What debugging program can i use to put the entire FM12 on?

to be fair, this issue was only flagged a couple of days ago wasn't it? took all of us playing the demo for a number of weeks to find it.

Fair enough tbh.

But.. it's just unplayable.. It's not like the once in a while kinda bug.. it's.. like you're playing a game with the game not behaving like the game. aww man. I don't know what I am talking about anymore.

You see, the goal keeper can score an own goal, the corner bug can let Vermaelen score 6 goals in 12 matches, we can download Steam and let it eat up our CPU resources.. But We can't really have the goalkeepers retarding with time.. and affecting the realism of the game.

My point of ranting is this - is isn't just any bug. It's making the game unplayable through the seasons. Well I'm wrong if you just play a season, start a new game, play for another and start a new game and so on and so forth..

There's no point in arguing here, SI are doing what they can to fix the issue

There's no point in arguing here, SI are doing what they can to fix the issue

Yep. You're so right.

Yep. You're so right.

Are you still playing fm12?

Are you still playing fm12?

I'm still playing, I'm only in march in the first season so it doesn't really affect me that much. Hopefully the fix will be out before I finnish season two.

I can live with GK's having 2-4 points in positioning, they will just use the CA on something different then

Stuff like this is the reason i'm waiting until x-mas to get it.

But.. dude.. if you have individual training just for your GK - and this is what makes the game unplayable - what about keepers of the AI? Them, are all training their GKs with default schedule with the Positioning out of their training schedule. Only your keeper will maintain his positioning.

Not sure how to read your post here..

I don't think that this issue makes the game unplayable, far from it. And i have confidence that it is being worked on and will be fixed in due time, and that the fix is save-game compatible.

I'm only in october in my savegame and just noticed the heavy decline in the positioning attribute of my GKs, and was wondering if putting them on individual training focus would be enough to reverse or at least stop the decline in the long run.

Obviously the AI will still suffer, but I'm guessing they will put their keepers on individual training focus somewhere along way, as I'm guessing the AI recognize positioning as an imporant attribute for GKs.

I'm not having a problem with the positioning training falling out of the GKs default training schedule by a mistake or whatever's happened. But it doesn't make sense that this is enough for such a decline in a short space of time as this is a skill that you just don't lose like that. Match fitness alone should be enough to keep it at the same level. And this should be looked into in the future FM games.

We are doing what we can to fix it, but I do have to say it far from makes the game unplayable. Fair enough the goalkeepers stats may drop slightly, but if you keep your training schedule on default then it's the same from every team across the game. Everyone on an even playing field. As said though, we are very much looking into this issue.

Yup. You're right. Hmm. ok. ON WITH MY West HAM PROMOTION TO THE PREMIER DIVISION FULL STEAM!!!!!!!!

I'm still playing, I'm only in march in the first season so it doesn't really affect me that much. Hopefully the fix will be out before I finnish season two.

I can live with GK's having 2-4 points in positioning, they will just use the CA on something different then

Okok... same here.. still playing. but i usually go 10+ seasons in a load. well. Very confident a fix is coming anyway.

We are doing what we can to fix it, but I do have to say it far from makes the game unplayable. Fair enough the goalkeepers stats may drop slightly, but if you keep your training schedule on default then it's the same from every team across the game. Everyone on an even playing field. As said though, we are very much looking into this issue.

I wouldn't really call 1-2 points pr six months a slight drop, but that's up to you.

Nice call with leaving your own GK's on the default though.

I wouldn't really call 1-2 points pr six months a slight drop, but that's up to you.

Nice call with leaving your own GK's on the default though.

Agree - just took Green and Marek Stech off their individual focus.

Just wanna update this problem - Tweeted Miles and he assured me that the team at SI already has people looking at the matter.. Look forward!!!!

Cheers

Well he if he had taken my tweet on thursday serious maybe the problem would have been solved

Positioning is not a vital stat for goalkeepers anyways, so let's not blow this out of proportion. Goalkeepers have other off the ball movement attributes that are more important for their movement than Positioning (which is mainly an attribute for defenders). Command of Area and Rushing Out are two attributes that are way more important for goalkeepers than Positioning.

Positioning is not a vital stat for goalkeepers anyways, so let's not blow this out of proportion. Goalkeepers have other off the ball movement attributes that are more important for their movement than Positioning (which is mainly an attribute for defenders). Command of Area and Rushing Out are two attributes that are way more important for goalkeepers than Positioning.

You can't do without any attributes I guess. Some may be poor in certain attributes but, how can this problem not be out of proportion? I mean if you play 10 seasons (like me), all keepers will have single digit in positioning.

I have to disagree (politely) that positioning is not a vital stat. No offence but I feel positioning is vital for a keeper as well.

Well he if he had taken my tweet on thursday serious maybe the problem would have been solved

I think he does. He just knows that people are already looking into it. He probably replied to my tweet since I asked again after you. You brought the problem to light in the first place anyway (=

You can't do without any attributes I guess. Some may be poor in certain attributes but, how can this problem not be out of proportion? I mean if you play 10 seasons (like me), all keepers will have single digit in positioning.

I have to disagree (politely) that positioning is not a vital stat. No offence but I feel positioning is vital for a keeper as well.

I agree with that part tbf.

Positioning is something I always want in a goalkeeper. If he can position himself well enough than he can make up for not having other attributes and save me quite a few goals through just being in the right place to stop a goal.

Positioning is not a vital stat for goalkeepers anyways, so let's not blow this out of proportion. Goalkeepers have other off the ball movement attributes that are more important for their movement than Positioning (which is mainly an attribute for defenders). Command of Area and Rushing Out are two attributes that are way more important for goalkeepers than Positioning.

I completely disagree. "Command of Area" simply determines the keeper's tendency to venture from the goal line to claim balls and how much he relies on defenders to help him defend the box. "Rushing out" determines his tendency to come off the line to claim through balls.

These are two very specific attributes that determine tendencies in two relatively specific situations.

"Positioning", however, is a more general attribute that determines how well a keeper physically places himself for virtually every situation including shots on goal (close range and long range), crosses, corners, free kicks, one-on-ones, etc. A keeper with a mediocre or low positioning is constantly going to be placing himself in a way that will put shots out of his reach and leave ample gaps for strikers to shoot into.

So to say the fact that AI keepers' Positioning constantly degrades and that regen keepers never improve the attribute isn't game breaking is just damage control. With this bug, every keeper is going to be a total tactical buffoon within 5 years. That's a big deal, and while I was planning on buying FM12 in a week or two when I'm done with the game I'm currently playing, I will now be holding off on a purchase until this issue is addressed.

You can't do without any attributes I guess. Some may be poor in certain attributes but, how can this problem not be out of proportion? I mean if you play 10 seasons (like me), all keepers will have single digit in positioning.

I have to disagree (politely) that positioning is not a vital stat. No offence but I feel positioning is vital for a keeper as well.

I completely disagree. "Command of Area" simply determines the keeper's tendency to venture from the goal line to claim balls and how much he relies on defenders to help him defend the box. "Rushing out" determines his tendency to come off the line to claim through balls.

These are two very specific attributes that determine tendencies in two relatively specific situations.

"Positioning", however, is a more general attribute that determines how well a keeper physically places himself for virtually every situation including shots on goal (close range and long range), crosses, corners, free kicks, one-on-ones, etc. A keeper with a mediocre or low positioning is constantly going to be placing himself in a way that will put shots out of his reach and leave ample gaps for strikers to shoot into.

So to say the fact that AI keepers' Positioning constantly degrades and that regen keepers never improve the attribute isn't game breaking is just damage control. With this bug, every keeper is going to be a total tactical buffoon within 5 years. That's a big deal, and while I was planning on buying FM12 in a week or two when I'm done with the game I'm currently playing, I will now be holding off on a purchase until this issue is addressed.

I think you can go ahead and buy the game It'll get fixed for sure. I told myself to enjoy fm11 at least until christmas but i never fail to buy the latest asap~! FM12 is an enjoyment so far and I can safely say it gives much more to us as gamers than fm11!

Eugster posted the near perfect solution to the problem, in the bugs forum relating to this issue. Start a new game, play it slow and wait for the fix.

The hotfix should be saved-game compatible with respect to this. IE - it must over-write the default training schedules of the AI in a SAVED game. Otherwise, no point for current load, current game to carry on.

Then, my next worry is this - can the fix be applied into the saved game?

It doesn't sound possible from a programming point of view. Allow me to explain;

Your saved game, made up of data of your game (obviously) also saved the way the AI uses the problematic gk training schedule (without positioning).

Say, a fix is released right now, this second and I download and installed in the next.

Will that fix be able to tell my saved game, which already is applying an old command (or value) to point to the new value in the fix? When it is basing the saved game on the SAVED data?

I mean to ask, will the saved game recognise the new default gk training schedule when you are in a saved game environment??

I may fail to put out the problem out well. Let me try again;

You started a new game. As the game is being created, the problematic gk schedule is pulled from the database of fm12.

You saved the game.

You apply fix.

Does the saved game know how to.. pull the new data into your saved environment and not rely on the saved info (problem gk schedule)?

A fix does not tell your save game anything.

There will be a code that checks which training routines are used, and will replace the old one with the new ones. When you click continue the new code will work. That's basically how bug fixing does work.

I may fail to put out the problem out well. Let me try again;

You started a new game. As the game is being created, the problematic gk schedule is pulled from the database of fm12.

You saved the game.

You apply fix.

Does the saved game know how to.. pull the new data into your saved environment and not rely on the saved info (problem gk schedule)?

Again guys, it doesn't really matter if it 'feels' like Positioning is a vital stat for a goalkeeper - it isn't. I've had it confirmed. Anyone can just ask Riz (or anyone from SI) and you will get the same answer: Positioning is not a vital attribute for goalkeepers.

You can even perform a simple test to prove it: use the editor to lower the Positioning ability to 1 for all goalkeepers in the Premier League, and then holiday your way through a season and see if more goals are scored or not.

Positioning is a defensive off the ball movement accuracy mostly tied to defenders - a goalkeeper doesn't move in big enough zones for Positioning to have a big enough impact. Command of Area will decide most of the important movement for the goalkeeper in the box, and Rushing Out will decide his movement on and off the line.

Should FMRTE get released soon, then that could fix this until it's properly sorted by SI. Once a year, add 2 or 3 to the positioning of all goalkeepers in the game. I used it for a similar thing with the jumping stats of regen defenders in FM10.

A fix does not tell your save game anything.

There will be a code that checks which training routines are used, and will replace the old one with the new ones. When you click continue the new code will work. That's basically how bug fixing does work.

Awww man... time to think about what team to take next.. argh.. Such disappointing news.

Again guys, it doesn't really matter if it 'feels' like Positioning is a vital stat for a goalkeeper - it isn't. I've had it confirmed. Anyone can just ask Riz (or anyone from SI) and you will get the same answer: Positioning is not a vital attribute for goalkeepers.

You can even perform a simple test to prove it: use the editor to lower the Positioning ability to 1 for all goalkeepers in the Premier League, and then holiday your way through a season and see if more goals are scored or not.

Positioning is a defensive off the ball movement accuracy mostly tied to defenders - a goalkeeper doesn't move in big enough zones for Positioning to have a big enough impact. Command of Area will decide most of the important movement for the goalkeeper in the box, and Rushing Out will decide his movement on and off the line.

Brilliant find.. but, so, I have to accept that positioning doesn't really matter for a keeper????

Which means, this problem to SI is purely aesthetic? It is just purely the way we see the positioning attribute going down that irritates us (or just me) and it doesn't affect game play at all..??

Awww man... time to think about what team to take next.. argh.. Such disappointing news.

Why? What I did explain does also work for saved games. From the moment the patch is installed, your saved game will also use the changed training schedules.

Awww man... time to think about what team to take next.. argh.. Such disappointing news.

Why? What I did explain does also work for saved games. From the moment the patch is installed, your saved game will also use the changed training schedules.

My apologies. I read too quick, only reading you saying "A fix does not tell your save game anything." and translated it as not being able to work in a saved game.

Can I ask you, since that saved game already saved all the code (the problematic gk schedule code in training), how does the fix tell the saved game to point to a new set of codes? Pull the value/command and specifically asks your saved game to overwrite just the value for the gk schedule (or the other issues/bugs raised, for that matter)?

*switches the TV on for Man Utd vs Man City

Will check back every now and then. thanks for replying to my queries!

Again guys, it doesn't really matter if it 'feels' like Positioning is a vital stat for a goalkeeper - it isn't. I've had it confirmed. Anyone can just ask Riz (or anyone from SI) and you will get the same answer: Positioning is not a vital attribute for goalkeepers.

You can even perform a simple test to prove it: use the editor to lower the Positioning ability to 1 for all goalkeepers in the Premier League, and then holiday your way through a season and see if more goals are scored or not.

Positioning is a defensive off the ball movement accuracy mostly tied to defenders - a goalkeeper doesn't move in big enough zones for Positioning to have a big enough impact. Command of Area will decide most of the important movement for the goalkeeper in the box, and Rushing Out will decide his movement on and off the line.

Really curious to do the test.. well, after the Manchester Derby! Will post screenshots here.

Your saved game is nothing else than a huge database. Records, Stats and preferences are stored and can be changed and updated with commands from the game code.

Your saved game is nothing else than a huge database. Records, Stats and preferences are stored and can be changed and updated with commands from the game code.

This is nice. It is very nice. You have just made my day (though it's night time here)!!!!!!!!

Pat Rice knew about this bug, coz just a few days into the game he asked me to put Both my best keepers on individual position training. Good job Pat, good job