No Promotion / No Relegation

There has been talk in the press recently about foreign owners wanting to scrap promotion to and relegation from the Premier League.

Lets say these plans were passed. (this is not the thread to comment on whether it is right or wrong as clearly the FA would not allow this)

How would this rule change affect this game?

Im not sure if they would then be allowed to participate in UEFA competitions. Without the champions league this plan wont sound that great to filthy rich owners.

Boring.. If they want low risk investments Football won't be it.

If it happened IRL, it would have to be in the game and would pretty much ruin LLM in England.

Basically you'd have a set of teams in the Premier League who would always be there... That's really it...

In terms of this though, if it did ever happen the most likely result is UEFA and the FA would throw the book at the closed shop Premier League and strip it of European places most likely giving it to the Football League instead. They'd get frozen out and that's the end of them.

Another alternative is that they'd need to make it such that other teams in England could compete for those European places meaning that one spot goes to the Championship meaning that only 3 Premier League sides can get Champions League football, again not ideal, but better.

No matter what happens with that though the ultimate problem for them with such an idea is that it would make the league completely pointless beyond the battle for the top 5-6 places. Interest in the bottom half would die and the league would lose a lot of financial backing. I don't see too many people wanting to pay mega bucks for the wooden spoon clash... Long story short they'd devalue the league and basically destroy their club's value anyhow.

It's a bit like that question kids ask: "If there are so many poor people why don't we just print more money to give it to them?" In fact its extremely similar that in this poor step in logic one could very well devalue the League entirely, but hey...

There has been talk in the past of having 2 leagues (20 teams in each) and the top teams from each fight for the european places. That is how they will probably want to do it.

Coming from an FM point of view, LLM would be pointless (most teams would probably be semi-pro anyway).

It wouldn't be pointless for LLM since it only affects the Premier League. As a LLMa myself I've never even got as far as the football league!

IIRC there is (or was) at least one league playable in FM that has no promotion or relegation - Hong Kong is it? Utterly boring.

Anyway, it'll never happen in England, so nothing to affect FM.

It would be absolutely ridiculous if this ever happens, although i doubt it ever will! Shutting the premiership doors on clubs with history like Leeds,Southampton,Middlesbrough(and many more) etc, all who will want to be back in there at some point not to mention all of the clubs who have aspirations to make it to the promise land that is the premiership. Can't see it happening. Just foreign owners wanting to make as much money as possible again.

they can make their own league filled with money clubs and see how fun that will be.

Imagine the boredom of the last 10 league games if there were no relegation fight, or no promotion push in the lower leagues. it would detroy the league set up as we know it

Just foreign owners wanting to make as much money as possible again.

Er, which foreign owners? You'll swallowing the hype without thinking it through. Entirely logically, the foreign owners of the Manchester massive, Chelsea and Liverpool are not in the slightest bit interested - since they are in no danger of relegation. The only foreign owners who I suspect m ight privately wish this scenario are the chicken folk at Blackburn. The last actual chairman to put forward this idea was the Bolton chairman - English!

Leave, it's non-news like the 39th game. Nothing to get worked up about.

yeah exactly its a complete non story like the 39th game as it will never happen, it will never even get to the point of them discussing it seriously.

Er, which foreign owners? You'll swallowing the hype without thinking it through. Entirely logically, the foreign owners of the Manchester massive, Chelsea and Liverpool are not in the slightest bit interested - since they are in no danger of relegation. The only foreign owners who I suspect m ight privately wish this scenario are the chicken folk at Blackburn. The last actual chairman to put forward this idea was the Bolton chairman - English!

Leave, it's non-news like the 39th game. Nothing to get worked up about.

I am not getting worked up over it, hence why i said i doubt it will never happen.

This proposal is speculation and conjecture, so untill it becomes fact, which I doubt will happen, there is little point in discussing how it could be implemented. If it becomes a competition rule, then SI will add it to the game.

This proposal is speculation and conjecture, so untill it becomes fact, which I doubt will happen, there is little point in discussing how it could be implemented. If it becomes a competition rule, then SI will add it to the game.

And we will edit back with relegations and promotions.

It wouldn't be pointless for LLM since it only affects the Premier League. As a LLMa myself I've never even got as far as the football league!

IIRC there is (or was) at least one league playable in FM that has no promotion or relegation - Hong Kong is it? Utterly boring.

Anyway, it'll never happen in England, so nothing to affect FM.

A-League doesn't, nor does MLS iirc

The ONLY way I'd imagine this ever coming to fruition would be if the top 20 richest/most powerful clubs in England some how formed another breakaway league, which would include your Leeds, Southampton, Birmingham etc etc rather than closing the door at the end of one season (trapping within it one odd 'first top flight season in 100 years' type side).

But I digress this is way off the topic...

Won't happen, and I'm pretty sure decisions affecting other leagues (ie removing promotion and relegation) would require more than just the input of the current 20 PL teams. There are 24 Championship teams for a start that wouldn't like having promotion removed. Many ex prem and some are bigger than the dross in the current league.

It would become too much like MLS setup and all clubs would need to be subsidised by the prem clubs otherwise they'll all cease to exist.

Further to my point above, Venky's have now said they're against it. So, where are we: number of foreign owners in favour of ceasing relegation - ZERO.

Why is anybody even running this nonsense story?

Wasn't this recent debate started by someone from the LMA? I might be mistaken but I've not heard about a single club being attributed to this.

This would not ruin the game as I am pretty sure someone in the editors forum would recreate the EPL to include promotion and relegation pretty much straight after FM's release.

Wasn't this recent debate started by someone from the LMA? I might be mistaken but I've not heard about a single club being attributed to this.

I think most foreign owners would know that there would be a backlash against coming out in support of it in public, I have no doubts that behind closed doors they would be in favour of it.

This proposal is speculation and conjecture, so untill it becomes fact, which I doubt will happen, there is little point in discussing how it could be implemented. If it becomes a competition rule, then SI will add it to the game.

I bet you are fun and games down the pub!

It wouldn't be pointless for LLM since it only affects the Premier League. As a LLMa myself I've never even got as far as the football league!

IIRC there is (or was) at least one league playable in FM that has no promotion or relegation - Hong Kong is it? Utterly boring.

Anyway, it'll never happen in England, so nothing to affect FM.

No promotion/relegation in the USA either, unfortunately.

The FA, who hold a "Golden Vote" in the premier league, have said they would not let this happen. So this topic of conversation is probably over.

FM would die along with football, if you really want to know.

English football would die, not FM though, althought they'd lose a lot of customers.

It wouldn't be pointless for LLM since it only affects the Premier League. As a LLMa myself I've never even got as far as the football league!

IIRC there is (or was) at least one league playable in FM that has no promotion or relegation - Hong Kong is it? Utterly boring.

Anyway, it'll never happen in England, so nothing to affect FM.

Hong Kong does have promotion and relegation. I lost all my league games and I promptly got sacked and the club relegated.

The only Asian leagues that doesn't have promotion/relegation (in FM) is the K-League and the A-League. MLS has no promotion/relegation either.

There has been talk in the press recently about foreign owners wanting to scrap promotion to and relegation from the Premier League.

Lets say these plans were passed. (this is not the thread to comment on whether it is right or wrong as clearly the FA would not allow this)

How would this rule change affect this game?

It would become the same as the MLS. And it would ruin the entire league system.

Works in the MLS because it's a developing league, there is pseudo promotion as it expands and maybe when it's complete there will be changes but to cut off 72 other league clubs is madness. Plus the Prem would be stuck with Wigan, Bolton, Arsenal, and other teams no one wants to watch. Heh. It may as well become a breakaway league and let the others battle it out - see how boring it became with the same teams in the league each year.

It would become the same as the MLS. And it would ruin the entire league system.

Works in the MLS because it's a developing league, there is pseudo promotion as it expands and maybe when it's complete there will be changes but to cut off 72 other league clubs is madness. Plus the Prem would be stuck with Wigan, Bolton, Arsenal, and other teams no one wants to watch. Heh. It may as well become a breakaway league and let the others battle it out - see how boring it became with the same teams in the league each year.

Exactly right.

IIRC there is (or was) at least one league playable in FM that has no promotion or relegation - Hong Kong is it? Utterly boring.

Australia and the United States- and neither of those are too bad (just weird rules).

It would become the same as the MLS. And it would ruin the entire league system.

Works in the MLS because it's a developing league, there is pseudo promotion as it expands and maybe when it's complete there will be changes but to cut off 72 other league clubs is madness. Plus the Prem would be stuck with Wigan, Bolton, Arsenal, and other teams no one wants to watch. Heh. It may as well become a breakaway league and let the others battle it out - see how boring it became with the same teams in the league each year.

Also, part of the reason it works in MLS is that, in the United States, Americans aren't used to that. Not to mention the fact that it would turn American investors off of buying clubs (part of this is what you mentioned, and part is because of how American sports/greed work).

Relegation/promotion is my favourite thing about soccer/football. It rewards success and punishes failure, which is something North American sports leagues don't always do.

Relegation/promotion is my favourite thing about soccer/football. It rewards success and punishes failure, which is something North American sports leagues don't always do.

In America, teams are punished for success and rewarded for failure (drafts), and revenue sharing is massive.

And Americans are so scared of "communism"...

Let's say they would agree on scrapping promotion/relegation. I think the FA would ban them from participating in the international competitions. The investors would try to buy the places off some smaller countries but the UEFA would not allow that. The investors would try to establish an new league and a new international competition, trying to lure Barca/Madrid/Bayern etc. into these competitions by offering higher prize money (money doesn't matter, right?). The supporters, however, would hopefully turn away from these clubs.

I remember good ol' Miles calling this years ago on one of the very first podcasts. He basically said that he thought the English Premier Division would become some sort of European Super League and The Championship would become the top tier in English future.

So yeah, SI have a fortune teller it seems

In terms of FM, if it were to somehow go through I'd assume SI would just add whatever league the EPL becomes as it's own playable nation with any rule/prize money changes that go with it

Discussing something that wont happen? I think thats the equivalent of playing call of duty where the soldiers are issued these.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cm/popularmechanics/images/Vc/nerf-guns-8-470-0409.jpg

I personally see this if to happen, will be the end of the EPL as it is.

Hong Kong does have promotion and relegation. I lost all my league games and I promptly got sacked and the club relegated.

The only Asian leagues that doesn't have promotion/relegation (in FM) is the K-League and the A-League. MLS has no promotion/relegation either.

You have forgotten about the Singapore League as well. As I am from Singapore, the S League has no relegation or promotion.

Er, which foreign owners? You'll swallowing the hype without thinking it through. Entirely logically, the foreign owners of the Manchester massive, Chelsea and Liverpool are not in the slightest bit interested - since they are in no danger of relegation. The only foreign owners who I suspect m ight privately wish this scenario are the chicken folk at Blackburn. The last actual chairman to put forward this idea was the Bolton chairman - English!

Leave, it's non-news like the 39th game. Nothing to get worked up about.

I believe that Gartside proposed a two-tier structure comprising of the Championship and Premiership.

As for the actual story I think that it is a non-runner.

In America, teams are punished for success and rewarded for failure (drafts), and revenue sharing is massive.

And Americans are so scared of "communism"...

The US leagues are neither "communism" nor "socialism." They're a cartel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartel

I've been saying for a while now that you'll see a closed European Super League before you see promotion/relegation in the US.

Also, part of the reason it works in MLS is that, in the United States, Americans aren't used to that. Not to mention the fact that it would turn American investors off of buying clubs (part of this is what you mentioned, and part is because of how American sports/greed work).

A lot of American sports franchises actually post an operating loss. The investors expect to get their money back in the increased value of the franchise when they decide to sell it.

The other factors at work in MLS are 1) they're trying to lay the foundation with appropriately sized stadiums (20,000 to 30,000) as opposed to being tenants in cavernous NFL stadiums (look at New England drawing 14,000 or 15,000 to Gillette Stadium (68,000+ total capacity) ). 2) No sports league here survives without a New York presence; it's absolutely necessary if you want a television contract.

When the second and third divisions were still unified under the USL, there was an informal promotion/relegation system (basically if you won the third division, you could choose to go up to the second). Cleveland City Stars took promotion ... and promptly went broke and out of business after their only season in the second division.

The problem of course is the US and Canada are pretty much a joint entity when it comes to sports, so if you try to move up from a more regionalized D3 to D2, all of a sudden you've got travel expenses for matches from Edmonton to Fort Lauderdale (about 8,000 km each way).

Really, we should regionalize our leagues under D2 (like they do in Italy, Portugal, etc.), and probably D2 as well. We can still keep the playoff system, just have teams play all their games in their geography-based division.

I still can't imagine a league system without promotion to the top league. Surely, the good teams from the 2nd division would go on a rampage sooner or later?

I still can't imagine a league system without promotion to the top league. Surely, the good teams from the 2nd division would go on a rampage sooner or later?

Just as promotion/relegation is an accident of English history (hey, we have all the clubs that want to be in our league, but we still want to play a balanced schedule), so too is the closed system in the US (travel is too complex and expensive, so we'll just have our baseball league extend no further west than the Mississippi River and no further south than Washington DC)

Swedish ice hockey uses promotion/relegation; that certainly wasn't brought over by the Canadians and Americans.

EDIT: Another way to look at it is that in the North American system, it's the player who gets promoted for doing well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farm_system#Baseball

I still can't imagine a league system without promotion to the top league. Surely, the good teams from the 2nd division would go on a rampage sooner or later?

I hope it will never happen, but it will if 14 of the 20 PL clubs vote for it. At the moment none say they will, but that could at some point change. At the top the rich clubs might see an advantage as Ayer argued re. TV deals; at the bottom clubs in danger of relegation could vote out of their self-interest. That's pretty much what happened in the SPL when the narrow self-interest of the clubs not part of the Old Firm voted to allow only one relegation spot.

If the Premier League voted for no relegation, the FA would expel them and none of the clubs could play in UEFA competitions and none of their players could play for England (big deal). Not saying it won't happen but the clubs will have to decide what's important for them - and for a lot of the owners a guaranteed £40 million+ every year might seem quite attractive.

Proper football fans won't watch or care though, and us lot will only be bothered about whether or not FM includes non-sanctioned leagues. Not sure it does at the moment but to be honest I haven't checked.

The 2 stupidest thing that could happen have been mentioned lately. Split TV rights and no relegation. Anyone with a teeny weeny bit of common sense will say it's ridiculous but money can make you blind to such things I guess.

I bet anything that was Venky's.

Or Gartside. Or Rangers/Celtic who would see this as a way into the money.

I guess those owners are americans and they want it to be like the NFL, MLB or NBA, it would be so boring imho and doubt it will be allowed by the UEFA anyway.

This is best discussed in the Football forum as it really has little to do with FM at the moment.