Is the Match Engine already at the end of its rope?

Why i had never seen some goals like this in reality?

I mean, this kind of goals still happen once in every 4-5 games, pretty decent way to give AI goals easily

SI, you could just give me an option and ask about "do u want to concede?" and A is Yes, B is Quit The Game without losing 2 weeks progress

[video=youtube;Wicg2ZpClkk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wicg2ZpClkk

he looks offside????this is a disaster of a bug though,ps this dosent look like the toons defence which is the best in the pl and the whole football league!!!!!:)

It's one of my gripes too, but don't see them as often as you are stating.

Hopefully the next ME upgrade see the keepers play the more modern sweeping role that you see nowadays and not be so scared to come out of their box. The lino missing the offside is nice and realistic though

I was hoping It was going to be like the guy who headed the ball into the goal from his own half

How on earth does this indicate the match engine is 'at the end of it's rope'? Surely this is just an issue with keeper AI.

The defence were definitely square

The defence were definitely square

i thought im playing in EPL with EPL class defender?

i mean you could just give me an option and ask about do u want to concede? and A is Yes, B is Quit The Game without losing 2 weeks progress

I think Paul C has basically acknowledged that this version of the match engine is on its last legs by making no improvements to it for FM12 and focusing all ths year's ME work on stuff that will happen for FM13. That suggests that there's a pretty radical overhaul underway. I understand it, I think, but it would have been nice if they'd spent just a bit of time early in the FM12 development schedule getting rid of some of the few remaining AI issues with this version - the goal above is one constant problem with AI, the over-frequency of goals from corners and the abilityu to exploit weak corner AI by attacking the near post, the way defenders under minimal pressure will put the ball out for a corner rather than a throw-in... I'd like to think that little things like this might still get tweaked in an FM12 patch, but from what PAul C has said, it seems like they'll be untouched for the whole year, even though when you bring them up in bugs forum or whatever then the SI posters say 'we are aware of this problem'.

Well put RazvanRat, I started a thread that was closed on the topic of no ME improvements based on what Paul C said. It makes you think twice this year before spending the money on the game, especially if you have a good FM11 save going.

The big plus with his comments, and what will hopefully result in 'the next generation of FM' is a new ME is being developed. Lets hope for something great.

pretty sure I read a report on the BBC sport site today which described a goal for someone (I forget who, go read 'em yourself ) that could quite easily have been the one in the OP's video...

although, tbf, they do happen too often in FM11, don't remember it in 09 though :hmm:

This is actually a very wise move by SI. I hope they continue serving up the ME every 2 years. Too much time was spent fixing new bugs from the new ME rather than existing problems and other features.

By the 3rd patch the match engine is not perfect but pretty great. So we can keep that and add more improvements in other areas like AI behaviours, transfers, contracts, newgens, training, interactions etc.

I'm not sure if this is possible but it would be good to have a reversible beta patch for ME testing purposes on the released version of FM, so that more testing can be done and the new FM can benefit from it.

That's why I always order my keeper to pass the ball to RB.

This is actually a very wise move by SI. I hope they continue serving up the ME every 2 years. Too much time was spent fixing new bugs from the new ME rather than existing problems and other features.

By the 3rd patch the match engine is not perfect but pretty great. So we can keep that and add more improvements in other areas like AI behaviours, transfers, contracts, newgens, training, interactions etc.

I'm not sure if this is possible but it would be good to have a reversible beta patch for ME testing purposes on the released version of FM, so that more testing can be done and the new FM can benefit from it.

Lowering the price would be a wise move too.

Lowering the price would be a wise move too.

Yeah but they're not savig any more money by not working on the ME. They are simply shifting the resources to other areas. When they eventually release fm13 with the new ME that contains two yrs worth of ME, should they charge more money for it than usual?

I can understand working on an entirely new ME. But giving us the same bugs as in the last one, not even trying to get rid of them? That's just a terrible attitude by SI IMO.

Please fix this bug, this happens about every other game. I watch extended highlights btw.

i would pay more money for an improved ME but not even less money for same ME every year

I can understand working on an entirely new ME. But giving us the same bugs as in the last one, not even trying to get rid of them? That's just a terrible attitude by SI IMO.

Please fix this bug, this happens about every other game. I watch extended highlights btw.

That's the thing though, they fix this bug then two others creep up as a result. Everything in the code is connected so a small change can trigger plenty of further issues. The current match engine is 10 years old after all, it's bound to have certain limitations and I'm sure they've taken it as far as it can go. I'm glad they're concentrating on a major overhaul instead of going round in circles by tweaking the current code. Personally I might not buy FM12 as it doesn't look to have enough improvements over FM11 but I'll certainly be purchasing the next version with the 'new' ME. I'm sure it'll be worth the wait.

I'm hoping they will build a brand new engine from scratch sooner than later. Just hoping though

i thought im playing in EPL with EPL class defender?

Titus Bramble is a Premiership defender...

Yes, there is something seriously wrong with the ME! emile heskey scored a scorcher against me! I mean come on.. heskey??!?

(ps, I am not entirely serious, but he did!)

Can the developer of this game tell me is there any possibly that every any player can use his head to make pin point through pass like Xavi while a goalie kicked the ball out?

I score like this a lot but the AI teams don't score like this against me. Maybe because my defence line isn't that high.

I score like this a lot but the AI teams don't score like this against me. Maybe because my defence line isn't that high.

do u feel shameful for the AI?

I mean, this kind of goals still happen once in every 4-5 games, pretty decent way to give AI goals easily

Agreed. These are pretty much the only goals i concede.

They do happen every 4 or 5 games as you say.

Keeper takes goal kick, midfielder/defender heads it straight back - forward has a 1 on 1.

I've asked about defending this in years gone by (its been present in the game for years) and you get the same old "play with the drop deeper shout" responses even though everything else in the way i play is fine.

It's a bit of a joke to be honest. I would query the testers on this point as we've all seen it umpteen times. They should be raising this as a high priority bug.

Don't get me wrong it does happen in real life quite rarely, but i am seeing it all the time in FM.

If i had time i would go through all the goals scored in the demo for my league and count up the number of times this happens.

I pretty much guarantee that it will be around the 20mark in the 6month demo.

It's really annoying when it's the last minute and the match stops for a highlight and it starts with your team's goal kick. The inevitable then happens...

I'd like to point out that 40% of the clip is an intro.

i mean if the AI wants to score against my team, please tell me, or make 5 of my players injured in same time, i would be pleased to see that rather than giving a goal freely like this lol

One way to stop the type of goal shown being scored against you is to set your GK to Defender Collect and pick one of your FBs so he will pass to them instead of booting the ball upfield and maybe setting his passing to short

One way to stop the type of goal shown being scored against you is to set your GK to Defender Collect and pick one of your FBs so he will pass to them instead of booting the ball upfield and maybe setting his passing to short

and this isnt realistic

I did a thread on this many many moths ago where it was determined that the problem lies in the defensive line moving away from the goal during the goal kick which gives the striker an advantage.

One of the SI people acknowledged that it was a problem they were aware of, but it was a hard coded part of the ME and therefor not fixable until a new ME was made.

Unfortunately, it also tends to happen the most against struggling teams, as the opposition pushes its attacker farther forward. Those people who were playing the strongest teams did not see it as often because the strikers are not playing as aggressively.

Actually, here is the thread: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/253721-Sick-and-tired-of-ongoing-bug-inthe-ME

It got locked, so I was never able to post my results. I did find, however, that this particular issue occurred more often when the striker was set to very attacking rather than a support type role. The poacher setting is very effective for scoring in this manner.

The reason SI can't fix this is afaik that the ball physics is not advanced enough to to implement header difficulty. It doesn't matter for the guy who heads the ball whether the ball was shot from 1 meter away (at his head) or if the ball is leisurely soaring through the air for several seconds before landing on his brow. He will manage to head the ball wherever he wants it anyway.

The match engine is not advanced enough to implement team defending either. This is the cause of what I call "the loose ball syndrome". If the ball runs loose (i.e no-one is in possession of the ball), the way the ME works becomes very visible: you can see that there is only one player on the pitch who knows where the ball is - and even he is quite unsure... once he finds the ball and the game recognizes possession again, the 21 other players start moving "normally" again. Looking closely at what happens where the ball is not located, I can often count 17-20 players who are not moving naturally according to what is happening where the ball is located. Actually, there are only two players who seems to be active; the player controlling the ball and the player closing him down. If the man on the run manages to dribble past the defender, there may be several "clicks" before the next defender decides to pay attention to him, and by then it is often too late - meaning that Dribbling is a vastly overpowered skill when coupled with pace, since pacey dribblers only need to go past one defender before being through on goal.

The "GK-ping bug" mentioned in this thread is a result of these limitations of the match engine:

A. The goal kick itself is difficult to head in a specific direction since the ball arch is so steep when it falls down. The ME can't replicate this, which allows 30-meter through balls to fast strikers.

B. The defenders and midfield would immediately be able to intercept such a long, headed pass, since it is from so far away from their own goal. The ME can't replicate this because (it seems to me) it is not the intention of the pass they are reacting to, but the zones in which the ball travels on its way forward (hence the term "clicks"). The zone in which the defenders are queued to react on the through ball is closer to their own goal (actually the ball is often almost over their heads before they start turning around), and so the only player who knows where the ball is and where it is headed is the striker.

C. The zone in which the keeper decides to stay in goal or rush out is too close to the goal, and in FM11 he doesn't go outside his area, so he is too late to close down and even if he could reach him in time he'll stop at the 16m line anyway.

IIRC SI has stated that they are working on new ball physics for FM13. If so, they are likely to re-write the whole ME to avoid the whole of this ball-in-zone system in order to allow all the players on the pitch to be aware of where the ball is at all times. So yes, the current ME is at the end of its rope.

The reason SI can't fix this is afaik that the ball physics is not advanced enough to to implement header difficulty. It doesn't matter for the guy who heads the ball whether the ball was shot from 1 meter away (at his head) or if the ball is leisurely soaring through the air for several seconds before landing on his brow. He will manage to head the ball wherever he wants it anyway.

The match engine is not advanced enough to implement team defending either. This is the cause of what I call "the loose ball syndrome". If the ball runs loose (i.e no-one is in possession of the ball), the way the ME works becomes very visible: you can see that there is only one player on the pitch who knows where the ball is - and even he is quite unsure... once he finds the ball and the game recognizes possession again, the 21 other players start moving "normally" again. Looking closely at what happens where the ball is not located, I can often count 17-20 players who are not moving naturally according to what is happening where the ball is located. Actually, there are only two players who seems to be active; the player controlling the ball and the player closing him down. If the man on the run manages to dribble past the defender, there may be several "clicks" before the next defender decides to pay attention to him, and by then it is often too late - meaning that Dribbling is a vastly overpowered skill when coupled with pace, since pacey dribblers only need to go past one defender before being through on goal.

The "GK-ping bug" mentioned in this thread is a result of these limitations of the match engine:

A. The goal kick itself is difficult to head in a specific direction since the ball arch is so steep when it falls down. The ME can't replicate this, which allows 30-meter through balls to fast strikers.

B. The defenders and midfield would immediately be able to intercept such a long, headed pass, since it is from so far away from their own goal. The ME can't replicate this because (it seems to me) it is not the intention of the pass they are reacting to, but the zones in which the ball travels on its way forward (hence the term "clicks"). The zone in which the defenders are queued to react on the through ball is closer to their own goal (actually the ball is often almost over their heads before they start turning around), and so the only player who knows where the ball is and where it is headed is the striker.

C. The zone in which the keeper decides to stay in goal or rush out is too close to the goal, and in FM11 he doesn't go outside his area, so he is too late to close down and even if he could reach him in time he'll stop at the 16m line anyway.

IIRC SI has stated that they are working on new ball physics for FM13. If so, they are likely to re-write the whole ME to avoid the whole of this ball-in-zone system in order to allow all the players on the pitch to be aware of where the ball is at all times. So yes, the current ME is at the end of its rope.

Pretty much this, although i slightly disagree on the team defending (but this is just my perspective). There were meant to new physics for FM12 IIRC, but they werent done in time. And to be honest i prefer the approach they have taken. Leave this last iteration highly polished, and so far a lot more bug free, so they work for the new one come FM13. Although i'm noticed my wingbacks are working much better this time round Napoli 3-4-2-1 FTW

New engine? Has this been confirmed? In some ways, I'd be at least as worried as I'd be delighted. Mind, it's not that the current engine doesn't have issues, but let me put it blantly to put things into perspective: Even after years of EA and Konami and their Nike advert-style presentation of the sports, people have often reacted so spoilt you wouldn't believe it. This is the only representation of football in a video game that dares to come somewhat close to the real sports. You can actually watch a match in full (which IS a match in full, not two by six minutes of action consisting of the sports' most superficial features) and not getting a headache as you'd do merely watching rather than kicking the ball in FIFA and PES. There is actual time-wasting, there is lots of room for tactics and playing styles a plenty. There are shifts in tempo, a fatigue sim that contrary to other popular football sims makes gungo-ho style closing down for "90 minutes" impossible, and at times matches ebb and flow so nicely they're eerily close to mimicking an actual match - and no matter how basic some of the calculations may or may not be: In a lot of ways the current engine looks and behaves way more advanced than any other football game on the market.

Here is hoping that dare SI ever to start from scratch again, I hope they know what is making FM's match engine unique in the first place.

Why i had never seen some goals like this in reality?

I mean, this kind of goals still happen once in every 4-5 games, pretty decent way to give AI goals easily

SI, you could just give me an option and ask about "do u want to concede?" and A is Yes, B is Quit The Game without losing 2 weeks progress

[video=youtube;Wicg2ZpClkk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wicg2ZpClkk

I haven't seen this happening anywhere near as often as you say on the FM12 demo. If you do find it happening to you then either get your defence to sit a bit deeper or set your keeper as a sweeper-keeper so they will come out of goal to mop up long balls over the top like that. Yes in that goal he might not have got there in time but they usually will.

Also, if you've never seen a goal scored like this in reality then you've obviously never watched any football below the Premiership!

It's one of my gripes too, but don't see them as often as you are stating.

Hopefully the next ME upgrade see the keepers play the more modern sweeping role that you see nowadays and not be so scared to come out of their box. The lino missing the offside is nice and realistic though

You can set a keeper to play more as a sweeper if you want, it isn't difficult to do.

You can set a keeper to play more as a sweeper if you want, it isn't difficult to do.

In FM 11 keepers flat out refuse to leave the 16 yard box, no matter what their instructions are. Don't know if it's fixed in 12 but if it isn't then the sweeper keeper tactic won't help with this at all really.

Titus Bramble is a Premiership defender...

This, there is nothing absolutely wrong with this goal. For example:

[video=youtube;VP7-wxb2em4]

Is very similar to what you've just shown, player getting onto a ball over the top and running half the pitch, shoddy defence, and turning of a defender before slotting it in the net. Yet you're complaining about Squarez's in the game, while Owen's in real life is rightly judged a masterpiece.

Firstly its clearly off-side so there is a bug there.

Secondly there is a problem that this happens "frequently" but its actual frequency is quite low. In reality is that I've hardly seen this but it does happen

Defence options. GK to roll out, target wide players etc

No change until perhaps FM13, subject to what PC identifies as areas for improvement and that the changes are easy to make / have low impact elsewhere

I for one am glad there are no ME changes giving SI / PC 2 years to get the next set of changes well tested. OOTB the ME, with few nuances aside, will be one if not the most stable ME released on day 1 of all FM releases

I think it's a good idea to leave the ME as is for another version, so we don't have to wait 3 patches for a decent one. Yes, it sucks there is nothing new, but aslong as they are working on an even better one for next year, i'm happy, happy, HAPPY!

However there is one thing I have never really understood... SI have been using the steam platform for a while now, and it's perfect for applying a steady flow of patches. How come the engine wasn't upgraded regularly with new the updates?! Just ME fixes. That shouldn't have made any impact on anything else in the game.

I suspect a certain amount of greed is involved with the yearly launch of a new game. It's a real moneymaker.

I think it's a good idea to leave the ME as is for another version, so we don't have to wait 3 patches for a decent one. Yes, it sucks there is nothing new, but aslong as they are working on an even better one for next year, i'm happy, happy, HAPPY!

However there is one thing I have never really understood... SI have been using the steam platform for a while now, and it's perfect for applying a steady flow of patches. How come the engine wasn't upgraded regularly with new the updates?! Just ME fixes. That shouldn't have made any impact on anything else in the game.

I suspect a certain amount of greed is involved with the yearly launch of a new game. It's a real moneymaker.

That is SEGA's terms of the contract, that a new version is released each year. And up to last year fm was not fully steam only. So that means people were not required to have internet to play.

But imo if you dont have internet in this age, that is your problem. Not something that SI should sacrifice their update strategy for.

However there is one thing I have never really understood... SI have been using the steam platform for a while now, and it's perfect for applying a steady flow of patches. How come the engine wasn't upgraded regularly with new the updates?! Just ME fixes. That shouldn't have made any impact on anything else in the game.

I suspect a certain amount of greed is involved with the yearly launch of a new game. It's a real moneymaker.

If you'd been on the FML Beta, you'd understand why. The ME requires a huge amount of fine tuning and balancing after every major set of changes. Although the core changes might only take 3-4 weeks to apply, the subsequent balance checks, bug identification and removal and fine tuning take a long, long time. You cannot simply upload every ME into a commercial system as you have a number of extremely rough versions prior to all the balances and checks being finalised.

The famous FML Beta example was the 'teleporting player' bug. That would have gone down well in a retail release.

Firstly its clearly off-side so there is a bug there.

That is absolutely ridiculous! If anything then the LACK of offside goals is a bug since they happen so often IRL! Stating that offside goals are bugged is like saying the game's real life counterpart is bugged! I think it's a feature, not a bug.

That is absolutely ridiculous! If anything then the LACK of offside goals is a bug since they happen so often IRL! Stating that offside goals are bugged is like saying the game's real life counterpart is bugged! I think it's a feature, not a bug.

Then let's bring on player fights, racist chants and pitch invasions. Maybe also the occasional stadium collapse and fan stabbing. At least in the virtual simulation we can have a better world.

The ME has roughly 50 years of life in front of it, IMO.

It just needs a constant developing & fixing.

FYI guys offside mistakes are coded into the game, its not a bug its an intentional refereeing mistake, they have been in there for a few versions now.

FYI guys offside mistakes are coded into the game, its not a bug its an intentional refereeing mistake, they have been in there for a few versions now.

well said and this happens in real life, The officials are human and mistakes happen otherwise what would Monday Night Football on Skysports have to discuss????? Yeah in a ideal world every decision would be spot on, goals would not be given if they hadn't crossed the line and teams wouldn't win if on paper the opposition were much stronger but then again if that happened half the fans in the world would have nothing to discuss or debate down the pub which again is part of the appeal of football. Come on its a sim of human behaviour which is totally unpredictable and as such the match engine needs some unpredictability built in to simulate real life football.

I'd personally keep this ME. If SI start to try and make it too good so many of us with not great specs on there computers/laptops will not be able to play and that would be a shame. The great thing about Football Manager is that you can play it quite easily on even the poorer spec computers/laptops. Not all of us can just go buy a new one for £500 just for FM. At the very least I wouldn't make any major changes to the ME for another 5 years or maybe give an option in preferences to be able to play with this ME instead of a new more intensive one.

Just to clarify one thing.

Yes we are working very hard behind the scenes on upgrading key elements of the ME, including improving the ball physics simulation. But at this stage we are absolutely not committing to any release year for this, so do not assume anything for FM2013. As you should know, we never announce features until the summer before release of a product anyway, but the amount of work that these changes entail means even we dont know for sure when they will be ready to surface just yet.

And as wwfan pointed out, the decision to base 12's ME on 11.3 was taken in the knowledge that overall it is in good enough shape to allow the ME team to commit maximum time to improving things for the future.

Bravo. That's the sensible route forward. Every year there are so many complaints about bugs and dodgy physics in the ME. Seems to me SI have taken this on board and given us a nigh-on bug-free, polished version of 11.3 whilst taking the patient approach to evolution so that by the time the ME upgrade is ready, it won't take umpteen patches to make it playable.