Why do SI Games allow bugs in every version of the game?

I'm not hating. I'm just very curious as to why this is happening. These games are incremental releases. They aren't reinventing the FM wheel every year. I love these games, but for once I want a bug-free enjoyable experience from Day 1.

Please, how can we help change the SI-Games development culture for the better?

I think a lot more players will buy your game if you just spent the extra cost of time and resources to polish the experience. People on this forum want to skip the game entirely or wait for patches and the game isn't even out yet. I think if this was improved fundamentally, so that when a new feature is introduced it is -thoroughly- tested before another is introduced, both SI Games and us the players will love this new approach.

Can you name one single game that was bug free at it's release?

Sorry. Bug-free software? Dream on

Firstly, I guess that you are aware that bugs in a piece of software which is as complex as FM are inevitable. It's just too huge to have everything right.

Secondly, I see you are arguing that let's say FM11 was fine and FM12 just added certain things, then it should be possible to have no bugs in the areas which haven't been touched for the new game, right?

I'm afraid, it doesn't work this way either. There are a lot of areas touched and improved and the new features and improvement cannot be coded as separate codes which are then just connected to the old one, such as a lego house on which you add another floor. There are so many interconnections inside the code that it's virtually impossible to foresee the effect of any change that may occur in a totally different area of the game.

We'll just have to live with that.

I'm afraid, it doesn't work this way either. There are a lot of areas touched and improved and the new features and improvement cannot be coded as separate codes which are then just connected to the old one, such as a lego house on which you add another floor. There are so many interconnections inside the code that it's virtually impossible to foresee the effect of any change that may occur in a totally different area of the game.

Unlikely as this breaks encapsulation, which is to make sure things don't fall over just because one thing falls over. You isolate components and perfect them separately, then wire them together.

We'll just have to live with that.

No - we should complain about bugs. Nobody should ever "have to accept" bugs. Nobody should ever need to make excuses for SI.

If you want to understand why there are bugs try doing something a fraction as complex as FM yourself, say compile a spreadsheet with all the important details of all the players in the English Premier League, and see if you can do it without any errors creeping in.

Complain, but be realistic. Expecting bug-free software?

Start a thread about the bug or post it where it belongs. Don't start a thread asking for something unreal.

Will wait until the first proper patch as usual.

OP states he wants a BUG-FREE game but doesn't post that he found a BUG in FM12?

What's the point?

Besides, there is NO SUCH THING AS "BUG-FREE"

Sorry. Bug-free software? Dream on

Bug-free, maybe not - but there's usually a lot, a huge list of issues people find when they start their games - very apparent bugs. If there only were some, then this wouldn't be an issue. When people want to wait almost until the next incremental game comes... It isn't good to read for a developer.

OP states he wants a BUG-FREE game but doesn't post that he found a BUG in FM12?

What's the point?

Besides, there is NO SUCH THING AS "BUG-FREE"

It doesn't mean we should make excuses for bugs existing, however.

We shouldn't, but we should understand them.

Will wait until the first proper patch as usual.

See? This isn't how it should be. The game should be a good and secure experience from Day 1 or they should delay it until they feel they can squeeze in that patch that will normalize the game at least a bit.

wow this came early for this version, what bugs are you having an issue with?

Usually when I play and a new update comes, the game requires me to RESTART that is (RESET) my game and start anew with a new database in order for updates to be applied to the game. That is also obstructive I feel, as I'm sure players play A LOT especially right after release.

Usually when I play and a new update comes, the game requires me to RESTART that is (RESET) my game and start anew with a new database in order for updates to be applied to the game. That is also obstructive I feel, as I'm sure players play A LOT especially right after release.

No it doesn't require you to start a new game. It is recommended, but it isn't essential and a lot of people inluding those working for SI never start a new game with a patch as they're happy with their current game.

Usually when I play and a new update comes, the game requires me to RESTART that is (RESET) my game and start anew with a new database in order for updates to be applied to the game. That is also obstructive I feel, as I'm sure players play A LOT especially right after release.

I have been playing my long term save since day of release without having to restart it at all on FM11, you dont HAVE to restart.

But what bugs have you encountered on FM12 that have prompted this thread?

Unlikely as this breaks encapsulation, which is to make sure things don't fall over just because one thing falls over. You isolate components and perfect them separately, then wire them together.

It's not that simple though. You can't just isolate components and perfect them in a mature product like FM. There's no way to work on the code affecting Morale, for example, without working on the match engine, the contract system, team talks, conversations etc. The interconnections between components are what makes FM the game it is.

Usually when I play and a new update comes, the game requires me to RESTART that is (RESET) my game and start anew with a new database in order for updates to be applied to the game. That is also obstructive I feel, as I'm sure players play A LOT especially right after release.

You only have to restart if you want updated player data other than that all patches are save game compatible.

As for you issue with the bugs at release I'm sure you are aware that SI do not have a large staff & there is only so much time that can be given to Q&A. In the main the FM community are more than happy to deal with any issues & help SI in fixing them.

Football Manager is such an in-depth game that some bugs won't be easy to find and as others have said so many games and software these days have bugs in them because of how in-depth they are etc.

I am sure old games also had bugs in them but back then the internet and message boards wasn't as huge where as now days every little thing people will moan on a forum and sometimes its not a bug. I will admit things such as internationals played on same day as champions league or premiership on the first weekend of the first season should have been spotted and fixed in the past but for the size of the game I don't think the amount of bugs in the game are that bad.

The vast majority of bugs every release I'd not notice or know about if I didn't visit this forum. My mate is an FM addict and he doesn't even know this place exists, no patches unless I tell him. And addict is no over-exageration.

Jamie Carragher just scored against me. That has to be a bug.

Jamie Carragher just scored against me. That has to be a bug.

If your playing as Liverpool its no bug

Football Manager costs about £30.00

I buy software every 18 months that costs €1000's of pounds. And there are always patches for it.

Large complex software, or simple software. There just is no way to release bug free software.

We are lucky though, growing up you would get bug in some software. You'd have to write (pen + paper + envelope + stamp (or typewriter if it was serious complaint)) to them which could take weeks to get a reply. If you were lucky you might get a patch released with a magazine that you went to the newsagents to pick up.

With the internet we can get the patches straight away. That's very handy.

Bugs is software is just part of life. Look at the amount of updates you've had for Windows alone! How about iTunes? What version of VLC player are you on? What about version of Internet Exporer or Firefox or Chrome or Safari?

It's not just FM. It's everywhere. That's how it's done.

This argument rears its ugly head year in year out. Following on from others points above,

1. There is no such thing as bug free software

2. Thousands of people play the game each year blissfully unaware of bugs.

3. If you come on to a forum you will always find more bugs due to it being the main place to report it.

4. I am 100% sure that SI do everything in their power to minimize the amount of bugs hence there being less bugs year after year.

So all in all, relax people and enjoy

some bugs are unforgivable on a game that has supposed to have been tested for bugs before release - anyone remember the super-goalie bug?

*gets coat*

Every game has bugs, just gotta wait till they get fixed.

Ha, you must not be much of a gamer of computer user. FM releases are relatively low on bugs in comparison to a LOT of other games or software that is released. SI do a GREAT job of having their game playable on release.

i gotta say that, imo, the FM2012 demo is the FM demo with fewer bugs i ever play.

In fact, havent find one so far.

there has been text and sound sync problems in only commentary mode ever since the 10.3.0 patch on fm 2010

I'm happy that SI don't charge for patches

Ha, you must not be much of a gamer of computer user. FM releases are relatively low on bugs in comparison to a LOT of other games or software that is released. SI do a GREAT job of having their game playable on release.

I'd like to know where you got those statistics from, especially since SI do not provide a public bug database.

I'd say that a quick look at the bugs sub-forum would indicate that FM12 is shaping up fairly well on the bug front, yes I have found a few but for one those & had to go beyond what people would usually do to produce the bug & the others related to Queen's Park who always cause problems because of their unique status in Scottish football.

Eidt: That reminds me Neil, I need to try & win a fiver.

Sadly every PC game release has bugs, some minor some major, just takes time to patch and fix.

Was surprised how it's been just over 10 months since the last release and we are getting a new version already, in the time frame it would be impossible not to have untold of bugs, expecting more in this version than any of the previous due to the lack of time between the two releases.

Football Manager costs about £30.00

We are lucky though, growing up you would get bug in some software. You'd have to write (pen + paper + envelope + stamp (or typewriter if it was serious complaint)) to them which could take weeks to get a reply. If you were lucky you might get a patch released with a magazine that you went to the newsagents to pick up.

With the internet we can get the patches straight away. That's very handy.

Ha! I recall calling tech support a few times for games in the early 90s and having a floppy disk with a patch on it mailed to me.

It's tradition

Besides, is there any known bug in the demo ?

It's just not humanly possible to release a game as complex as FM on a yearly basis and not have bugs (and possibly even big ones). I would love to see SI skip adding new features for the next release and just work on fixing/fine tuning everything in the game, but that would be an economic hit to the company since they probably wouldn't be able to charge full price for what would essentially be patched version. And the amount of whining in the forums would reach an all time high.

The corner's goal bug still present in FM 12?

I haven't played the demo much yet, but as for FM11 and other previous versions the main issue is not simply that the game contains errors and bugs. It is the fact that the majority of errors and bugs are something already 'being looked into' and are usually fixed by the 3rd patch. So they are never 'unfixable' types of bugs.

So then my question would be why aren't they releasing a 3rd patch quality build from the beginning?

Is it not enough time? Then obviously the company has a priority issue.

Is it lack of man power for testing? Then they should have a prolonged beta time before going gold.

In any case, we have been stuck in this less than ideal structure of waiting until Feb to get the most complete version of the game.

I'll be staying with FM11 at least until the 2nd patch, to save any headaches.

Err...because they are humans and humans arent perfect!

Are you perfect? Have you never made a mistake?

Has Miles released a patching strategy this year?

Despite many requests in this thread, Metagod has still not explained what bugs he has come across!